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On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that.
I agree. Banning all guns is not the solution.
One of the issues with even getting background checks in place is the NRA, and most NRA supporters in Congress are the same conservatives who stand up against funding mental healthcare. I work in a psychiatric hospital I see mentally sick people first hand and the treatment they receive (or don't receive). I also see who is fighting for the resources we need, and lo and behold, it is the same people who support background checks...
So the problem is the right. They don't want to fund healthcare, believe it should a private issue. They also don't support background checks at gun shows. So the same poor crazy people who can't get healthcare have access to guns. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
This country needs to wake up. Background checks at gun shows don't prevent people from owning guns responsibly.
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On December 17 2012 04:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:49 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:40 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Also you can blow some guy's balls off with an explosive if he was trying to enter your house. You might suffer unwanted property damage but you're still getting the same effect, albeit a bit more unsanitary than the other. You'd go to jail for this. And if someone breaks into your home and you kill them you're probably going to end up in jail. Your property is not worth another human's life. You would have to prove self-defense. You don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. One cannot (and should not) protect themselves from unlawful intruders? If you setup traps, or have a guard dog and an innocent lost child opens your door and dies because of the trap or dog, you are responsible for that. Again, you don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. Now if someone is attacking you and you fight back, that is self defense, totally different. But if they are there for property, again, the death penalty is not an appropriate response for theft. Your TV is not worth someone else's life.
If thieves were killed in the act of stealing someone's property, I'd imagine the occurrence of theft would go down in the first place.... I sure wouldn't stand for a criminal taking my stuff on my own property; probably wouldn't kill them, but I would threaten with lethal force to get the heck off my property. Would rather deter them with grave consequences.
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On December 17 2012 05:10 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. I agree. Banning all guns is not the solution. One of the issues with even getting background checks in place is the NRA, and most NRA supporters in Congress are the same conservatives who stand up against funding mental healthcare. I work in a psychiatric hospital I see mentally sick people first hand and the treatment they receive (or don't receive). I also see who is fighting for the resources we need, and lo and behold, it is the same people who support background checks... So the problem is the right. They don't want to fund healthcare, believe it should a private issue. They also don't support background checks. So the same poor crazy people who can't get healthcare have access to guns. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
Banning something is usually a last resort measure to compensate for lack of ability to tackle the root of problems to alleviate a symptom. The point alot of people are making is that because there is so much fundamental opposition against sensible solutions to the inherent problems that make violent gun crimes prevalent in the US, maybe a ban, or extremely strict control has to be implemented as a stop-gap solution while other things are worked out. It's not uncommon for measures like this to occur when something becomes a national crisis.
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On December 17 2012 05:15 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:49 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:40 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Also you can blow some guy's balls off with an explosive if he was trying to enter your house. You might suffer unwanted property damage but you're still getting the same effect, albeit a bit more unsanitary than the other. You'd go to jail for this. And if someone breaks into your home and you kill them you're probably going to end up in jail. Your property is not worth another human's life. You would have to prove self-defense. You don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. One cannot (and should not) protect themselves from unlawful intruders? If you setup traps, or have a guard dog and an innocent lost child opens your door and dies because of the trap or dog, you are responsible for that. Again, you don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. Now if someone is attacking you and you fight back, that is self defense, totally different. But if they are there for property, again, the death penalty is not an appropriate response for theft. Your TV is not worth someone else's life. If thieves were killed in the act of stealing someone's property, I'd imagine the occurrence of theft would go down in the first place.... I sure wouldn't stand for a criminal taking my stuff on my own property; probably wouldn't kill them, but I would threaten with lethal force to get the heck off my property. Would rather deter them with grave consequences.
I can't say I wouldn't be enraged or would try to stop them if someone broke into my house and tried to steal, but the correct response is always to call the police and let them handle it. It is probably the safest too.
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On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that.
Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc.
So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people.
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On December 17 2012 05:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:15 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:49 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:40 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Also you can blow some guy's balls off with an explosive if he was trying to enter your house. You might suffer unwanted property damage but you're still getting the same effect, albeit a bit more unsanitary than the other. You'd go to jail for this. And if someone breaks into your home and you kill them you're probably going to end up in jail. Your property is not worth another human's life. You would have to prove self-defense. You don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. One cannot (and should not) protect themselves from unlawful intruders? If you setup traps, or have a guard dog and an innocent lost child opens your door and dies because of the trap or dog, you are responsible for that. Again, you don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. Now if someone is attacking you and you fight back, that is self defense, totally different. But if they are there for property, again, the death penalty is not an appropriate response for theft. Your TV is not worth someone else's life. If thieves were killed in the act of stealing someone's property, I'd imagine the occurrence of theft would go down in the first place.... I sure wouldn't stand for a criminal taking my stuff on my own property; probably wouldn't kill them, but I would threaten with lethal force to get the heck off my property. Would rather deter them with grave consequences. I can't say I wouldn't be enraged or would try to stop them if someone broke into my house and tried to steal, but the correct response is always to call the police and let them handle it. It is probably the safest too.
It absolutely is. I don't understand why so many people seem to want it to take it onto themselves to execute anyone who attemps steal from them. Not only do you kill an individual you know nothing about with the exceptions of him trying to steal something, but you also potentially give yourself years of trauma in the process. Not to mention you deliberately put yourself and your family in danger by trying to face the criminal directly instead of calling the cops.
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
edit: Since people are too lazy to google anything in this thread:
http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/10/02/public-service-announcement-owning-a-gun-means-you-are-4-5-times-more-likely-to-be-shot/
http://www.quora.com/Guns-and-Firearms/Is-it-better-to-own-a-gun-for-self-defense-or-is-that-more-likely-to-cause-problems
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
Seriously, just google it. Theres are houndreds of studies on this. Everyone points to the same thing: Anyone owning a gun is more likely to get shot.
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On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you).
On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people.
We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need.
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I think having a gun is fine, as long as it's an air rifle. They are powerful enough to protect against intruders, but not powerful enough to kill multiple people.
I do my part by not having a gun and voting Democrat, and never voting for someone who is endorsed by the NRA
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On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need.
BronzeKnee, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the realm of the banned, and I agree with what you've been saying almost totally. No one serious about pragmatically taking a look at gun regulation in the United States wants to take everyone's guns away, we simply want a proper system in place with which to make the procurement of firearms more difficult. Additionally, a lot of cities who previously had gun turn ins were forced to cut back on such initiatives due to budget cuts and this phenomena ought to be reversed. I can tell you from personal experience that these initiatives take a ton of firepower off the streets.
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On December 17 2012 05:48 Zer atai wrote:
I think having a gun is fine, as long as it's an air rifle. They are powerful enough to protect against intruders, but not powerful enough to kill multiple people.
I do my part by not having a gun and voting Democrat, and never voting for someone who is endorsed by the NRA
An air rifle? lol. How would you possibly think an air rifle is capable of repelling an intruder? Sounds more like a quick way to end up dead. I'd rather defend myself with a knife than an air rifle 100% of the time.
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On December 17 2012 05:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need. BronzeKnee, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the realm of the banned, and I agree with what you've been saying almost totally. No one serious about pragmatically taking a look at gun regulation in the United States wants to take everyone's guns away, we simply want a proper system in place with which to make the procurement of firearms more difficult. Additionally, a lot of cities who previously had gun turn ins were forced to cut back on such initiatives due to budget cuts and this phenomena ought to be reversed. I can tell you from personal experience that these initiatives take a ton of firepower off the streets.
Doing something about gun shows is a start. Anyone can buy a gun there with no checks to see if that person is legally allowed to own one. Not to mention it's an instant purchase that the government has no idea about. Same goes for private purchase, people should have to go through an FFL dealer for transfers.
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On December 17 2012 05:57 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:53 farvacola wrote:On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need. BronzeKnee, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the realm of the banned, and I agree with what you've been saying almost totally. No one serious about pragmatically taking a look at gun regulation in the United States wants to take everyone's guns away, we simply want a proper system in place with which to make the procurement of firearms more difficult. Additionally, a lot of cities who previously had gun turn ins were forced to cut back on such initiatives due to budget cuts and this phenomena ought to be reversed. I can tell you from personal experience that these initiatives take a ton of firepower off the streets. Doing something about gun shows is a start. Anyone can buy a gun there with no checks to see if that person is legally allowed to own one. Not to mention it's an instant purchase that the government has no idea about. Same goes for private purchase, people should have to go through an FFL dealer for transfers.
lol, and I thought you and I would never agree on anything related to gun control  I totally agree, gun shows and ad hoc firearms sales are excellent places to start. I've personally seen too much illegal shit going down at gun shows, and I've only been to two lol.
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On December 17 2012 06:00 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:57 heliusx wrote:On December 17 2012 05:53 farvacola wrote:On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need. BronzeKnee, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the realm of the banned, and I agree with what you've been saying almost totally. No one serious about pragmatically taking a look at gun regulation in the United States wants to take everyone's guns away, we simply want a proper system in place with which to make the procurement of firearms more difficult. Additionally, a lot of cities who previously had gun turn ins were forced to cut back on such initiatives due to budget cuts and this phenomena ought to be reversed. I can tell you from personal experience that these initiatives take a ton of firepower off the streets. Doing something about gun shows is a start. Anyone can buy a gun there with no checks to see if that person is legally allowed to own one. Not to mention it's an instant purchase that the government has no idea about. Same goes for private purchase, people should have to go through an FFL dealer for transfers. lol, and I thought you and I would never agree on anything related to gun control I totally agree, gun shows and ad hoc firearms sales are excellent places to start. I've personally seen too much illegal shit going down at gun shows, and I've only been to two lol.
I'm not against gun control at all. In fact I think we are way too lax in that area. I'm not some republican gun nut, I'm a democrat transplant who spent most of his younger years in the south and I take my right to defend myself with a gun in my home seriously. I have mixed feelings on open carry and concealed carry because it allows for mostly untrained people to put public safety in danger. The only thing I've really taken offense to in this thread is foreigners coming in here and saying" americans are stupid, in my country we abolished gun ownership blah blah blah." I don't believe anyone who wasn't actually ignorant to the current situation in america with guns would think banning all guns is the correct path at this point in time.
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On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need.
What's the solution? What's the best idea so far? How do we stop people from buying/selling/stealing guns?
We haven't been able to stop the sale and consumption of illegal drugs in the USA. Seller's sell, because the profits are so great. Consumer consume because they want the product and it makes them happy to some degree. Prison doesn't deter the sale or consumption. We also spend 50k a year housing these inmates.
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Should people be allowed to own guns? No. Will banning guns outright actually solve the issue? No, probably not. Hard drugs are illegal and people seem to have no trouble getting ahold of those, so why would it be any different for guns. I think the real solution is tighten up laws on gun control but also try and address the psychological reason we're getting these tragic massacres so frequently as of late.
There is ALWAYS a psychological reason someone does ANYTHING.
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On December 17 2012 06:22 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 06:00 farvacola wrote:On December 17 2012 05:57 heliusx wrote:On December 17 2012 05:53 farvacola wrote:On December 17 2012 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 05:27 Excludos wrote:
Owning a gun for self defense is about the most stupid thing you can do. Every statistics show that it only serves to greatly increase the risk to yourself. Its placebo at best!
This is true. There are huge amounts of data that show when a criminal is armed and the victim is not that it ends generally non-violently. When the victim is armed, a violent ending is far more likely, and more often than not is it the victim who gets hurt. Weapons force compliance and that is what most criminals want (unless of course there objective is to kill you). On December 17 2012 05:22 guN-viCe wrote:On December 17 2012 05:07 Br0kensword wrote:
Maybe we should be investing our energies into fixing America's broken mental healthcare system and help these very very sick people before they do the terrible things they do. I know lots of people who have guns and they worst trouble they get into is an occasional speeding ticket. The whole issue has become fanatically politicized with both sides trying to "Win" over the other. There needs to be consensus and concession to not only strengthen our gun laws but fix our damn society.
Its very easy to sit back after a tragedy such as what has just passed and say " lets just ban all guns" and then give yourself a pat on the back and walk away without of solved the underlying problems at all. It takes a lot more then that. Nice post, and I totally agree. We don't have a gun problem(imo), we have a mental health crisis. We have 100's of different chemicals in our water(including traces of birth control, vicodin, etc. etc.), we cover on foods in pesticides(useful, but still damaging according to the research), people eat junk food nonstop which is low in nutritional value, we have a lot of substance abuse(especially damaging in pregnancy), we have genes, social stressors, lack of mental health resources, etc. etc. So many things contribute to mental health decline and instability. Yet we focus our resources on wars and defense(obviously important to a degree), instead of helping our own sick people. We do have a problem with criminals and mentally ill people having legal access to guns though, but otherwise I totally agree. We need to have 100% background checks for gun sales or transfers, and we need to get people the mental health help they need. BronzeKnee, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the realm of the banned, and I agree with what you've been saying almost totally. No one serious about pragmatically taking a look at gun regulation in the United States wants to take everyone's guns away, we simply want a proper system in place with which to make the procurement of firearms more difficult. Additionally, a lot of cities who previously had gun turn ins were forced to cut back on such initiatives due to budget cuts and this phenomena ought to be reversed. I can tell you from personal experience that these initiatives take a ton of firepower off the streets. Doing something about gun shows is a start. Anyone can buy a gun there with no checks to see if that person is legally allowed to own one. Not to mention it's an instant purchase that the government has no idea about. Same goes for private purchase, people should have to go through an FFL dealer for transfers. lol, and I thought you and I would never agree on anything related to gun control I totally agree, gun shows and ad hoc firearms sales are excellent places to start. I've personally seen too much illegal shit going down at gun shows, and I've only been to two lol. I'm not against gun control at all. In fact I think we are way too lax in that area. I'm not some republican gun nut, I'm a democrat transplant who spent most of his younger years in the south and I take my right to defend myself with a gun in my home seriously. I have mixed feelings on open carry and concealed carry because it allows for mostly untrained people to put public safety in danger. The only thing I've really taken offense to in this thread is foreigners coming in here and saying" americans are stupid, in my country we abolished gun ownership blah blah blah." I don't believe anyone who wasn't actually ignorant to the current situation in america with guns would think banning all guns is the correct path at this point in time.
Again, I agree with you, it would be dishonest to ignore the degree to which firearm ownership is enmeshed with the American zeitgeist, especially when discussing pragmatics of the role of government and regulation. And yeah, Midwest Democrats (excluding Illinois, for obvious reasons) and Southern Democrats ain't so different, especially when it comes to something like firearm ownership, so no surprises there.
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http://www.cchr.org/videos/psychiatrys-prescription-for-violence.html
"Documenting the impact of a multibillion dollar psychiatric-pharmaceutical industry, this powerful and graphic video contains interviews with experts, parents and victims. Dramatic recordings of actual 911 calls made by desperate family members—and even by a killer himself—convey the chilling reality behind today’s headlines. Here is the shocking truth underlying the current wave of violence devastating our homes, schools and communities."
Watch the link, it's the drugs (the video is disturbing but watchable).
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On December 17 2012 06:33 Esk23 wrote:http://www.cchr.org/videos/psychiatrys-prescription-for-violence.html"Documenting the impact of a multibillion dollar psychiatric-pharmaceutical industry, this powerful and graphic video contains interviews with experts, parents and victims. Dramatic recordings of actual 911 calls made by desperate family members—and even by a killer himself—convey the chilling reality behind today’s headlines. Here is the shocking truth underlying the current wave of violence devastating our homes, schools and communities." Watch the link, it's the drugs (the video is disturbing but watchable).
The psychiatric pharmaceutical industry is definitely worth taking a long hard look at, especially when it comes to prescription propriety assessment, but it takes a fair bit of imagination to presume that it necessarily stands at the crux of mass murder. Even in a very basic sense, there is no way for us to know whether or not any of these individuals had the capacity to perform murder before they took the meds or not; instead we are merely seeing that those who commit mass murder have oftentimes been prescribed psychiatric meds. That is not really enough to go off of.
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On December 17 2012 06:40 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 06:33 Esk23 wrote:http://www.cchr.org/videos/psychiatrys-prescription-for-violence.html"Documenting the impact of a multibillion dollar psychiatric-pharmaceutical industry, this powerful and graphic video contains interviews with experts, parents and victims. Dramatic recordings of actual 911 calls made by desperate family members—and even by a killer himself—convey the chilling reality behind today’s headlines. Here is the shocking truth underlying the current wave of violence devastating our homes, schools and communities." Watch the link, it's the drugs (the video is disturbing but watchable). The psychiatric pharmaceutical industry is definitely worth taking a long hard look at, especially when it comes to prescription propriety assessment, but it takes a fair bit of imagination to presume that it necessarily stands at the crux of mass murder. Even in a very basic sense, there is no way for us to know whether or not any of these individuals had the capacity to perform murder before they took the meds or not; instead we are merely seeing that those who commit mass murder have oftentimes been prescribed psychiatric meds. That is not really enough to go off of.
How many of them committed murder before they started taking the drugs? It's almost always afterwards. That Batman shooter James Holmes was on psychiatric drugs, research it.
You won't hear any of this on the mainstream media because these drug companies just pay them off with their billions and billions of dollars. People are more interested in making money than actually helping people.
***Just want to add, I'm not saying that you get rid of all drugs and everyone stops acting insane, but these drugs are greatly contributing to a lot of violence, in fact a big majority of it.
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On December 17 2012 05:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:15 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:49 cLAN.Anax wrote:On December 17 2012 04:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 17 2012 04:40 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Also you can blow some guy's balls off with an explosive if he was trying to enter your house. You might suffer unwanted property damage but you're still getting the same effect, albeit a bit more unsanitary than the other. You'd go to jail for this. And if someone breaks into your home and you kill them you're probably going to end up in jail. Your property is not worth another human's life. You would have to prove self-defense. You don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. One cannot (and should not) protect themselves from unlawful intruders? If you setup traps, or have a guard dog and an innocent lost child opens your door and dies because of the trap or dog, you are responsible for that. Again, you don't have the right to be jury, judge and executioner. Now if someone is attacking you and you fight back, that is self defense, totally different. But if they are there for property, again, the death penalty is not an appropriate response for theft. Your TV is not worth someone else's life. If thieves were killed in the act of stealing someone's property, I'd imagine the occurrence of theft would go down in the first place.... I sure wouldn't stand for a criminal taking my stuff on my own property; probably wouldn't kill them, but I would threaten with lethal force to get the heck off my property. Would rather deter them with grave consequences. I can't say I wouldn't be enraged or would try to stop them if someone broke into my house and tried to steal, but the correct response is always to call the police and let them handle it. It is probably the safest too.
Surely you've heard of the phrase, "Out where I live, I AM 9-1-1"? For some people, especially in rural counties where the nearest station is miles away, they can't rely on the local police force to come to their aid in time. So they arm themselves. Of course, this isn't the case for most urban Americans with regards to the vicinity of the police, but the principle remains the same in that one should want to proactively protect their junk. I agree that having to defend yourself with a gun is going to complicate things when police arrives (the legal implications in particular), and calling 9-1-1 is still something one should do, but the populace should be able to defend themselves from criminals and would-be perpetrators with firearms, in my opinion.
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EPT
