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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 12:46 magicmUnky wrote:
Yeah but if the guns are hard to obtain due to licensing and regulation, the demand will drop; it's a disincentive. If there are less guns floating around then why would home-owners want them for personal protection? If gun licenses are expensive then that's just another disincentive.
You're right that there's a huge cultural block but I think that's easier to deal with than it's been made out to be. I can only imagine that arguments like yours will win and that America will continue to be full of gun crime, on top of all the regular crime. I expect to see another psycho shooting up a school in the next year and the world will be thinking, "only in America".
America is not full of gun crime. Look at this chart over a 15 year period. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/firearmnonfatalno.cfm
Don't believe so much what you hear on the news, instead using your reasoning so we can preserve threatened principles.
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I think banning assault weapons is a no brainer. I understand the complexity of the situation in the US, however, allowing people easy access to such lethal killing tools is insane. You dont need an assault rifle to defend yourself. The fact of the matter is, these people that shoot up schools, movie theaters, malls, etc... strike suddenly, in places where an assault weapon of your own as a law abiding citizen is nowhere to be found. Even if for some stupid reason you did have it on you, firing an automatic weapon in a public place like this would be careless.
These weapons are not for sport, not for home defense, etc... They are extremely efficient killing tools, capable of making anyone who holds it powerful, and able to kill many people in a very short time span. Weapons like that have no place in society.
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United States24701 Posts
On December 15 2012 12:52 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:47 micronesia wrote:On December 15 2012 12:42 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:39 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:34 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:28 NET wrote:
Will just reiterate a good point.
Illegal drugs are illegal. The people that want them will still get it. The same goes for weapons.
If a law abiding citizen wants to own and carry a gun, then I believe they should be able to, of course after a background check and such. If they make it illegal it will be sheep to the slaughter when a madman, who will obtain a weapon whether it be illegal or not wants to go on a rampage.
Imagine if the teacher was armed, at least then they would have stood a fair chance. We should not stand behind false flags when it comes to our(USA's) freedoms.
A funny meme I saw said, "So making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make meth and heroin illegal too."
My 2 cents. The mother of the killer was infact, a teacher at the school. those were in fact, her weapons (at least registered in her name).. that also killed her. Schools are firearm free zones. She wasn't allowed to have them on the premises. So you are not actually refuting his point that having a firearm there would have helped. It would have. This is in Israel (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg). Do I advocate what is in that particular picture? No. Maybe locked in a safe in the closet. But it is not as absurd as you imagine it to be. O.o i have no words... Either i don`t understand just how terrible and dangerous the USA is or how freaking afraid americans are I'm not quite sure how to break this to you, but Israel is not in the USA. Thats not what i was going at... The fact that he finds that not so absurd...
Oh, haha, your post was unclear so I thought you were saying something quite ridiculous. Maybe you would want to edit and clarify why you said what you did as it is kinda unclear. I agree at the least that the idea of a teacher needing access to a gun when teaching little children is pretty frightening.
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On December 15 2012 12:51 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:39 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:34 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:28 NET wrote:
Will just reiterate a good point.
Illegal drugs are illegal. The people that want them will still get it. The same goes for weapons.
If a law abiding citizen wants to own and carry a gun, then I believe they should be able to, of course after a background check and such. If they make it illegal it will be sheep to the slaughter when a madman, who will obtain a weapon whether it be illegal or not wants to go on a rampage.
Imagine if the teacher was armed, at least then they would have stood a fair chance. We should not stand behind false flags when it comes to our(USA's) freedoms.
A funny meme I saw said, "So making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make meth and heroin illegal too."
My 2 cents. The mother of the killer was infact, a teacher at the school. those were in fact, her weapons (at least registered in her name).. that also killed her. Schools are firearm free zones. She wasn't allowed to have them on the premises. So you are not actually refuting his point that having a firearm there would have helped. It would have. This is in Israel (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg). Do I advocate what is in that particular picture? No. Maybe locked in a safe in the closet. But it is not as absurd as you imagine it to be. Conservative pundit and former Bush speech writer David Frum caught a lot of shit from the right wingers for this tweet today. "Shooting at CT elementary school. Obviously, we need to lower the age limit for concealed carry so toddlers can defend themselves."
That's exactly the sensible thing the 2nd amendment rights groups are arguing for.
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On December 15 2012 12:52 blitzkrieger wrote:Should people be allowed to have sex out of marriage? As well know sex out of wedlock causes many problems such as AIDS and other STDs, and causes many deaths, even if you are liberal and don't count abortion as murder. AIDS and other STDs can even spread from mother to baby in the womb or at birth. Therefore I think we should require a marriage license in order to engage in any sexual activities, and you must go to your town hall and apply for a permit to marry. We live in a civilized society and casual sex is causing many deaths from STDs, haven't we progressed from our barbaric path of brutal lasciviousness? All other forms of sex should be outlawed completely since they can cause death through the ways mentioned earlier. How many brothels and sex slaves are there? Is human sexual trafficking ok? Its like being shot multiple times everyday without being able to die. How many child sex slaves are there? (Hint more than have been killed in mass shootings). With these new laws we could shut down prostitution, sex trafficking, and other forms of abuse worldwide that are often worse than death. Its only by allowing people to have sex whenever and with whoever they want, that these problems arise. AIDS can be spread through needles and its very easy to stab people in a crowd with an infected needle, but lets be real here, that doenst happen much and its much harder than just having casual sex. I mean how many cases of AIDS are from undesired needles versus casual sex? Its obviously much easier to kill with AIDS through casual sex. I propose we develop government regulated chastity belts with little cameras that can verify if and when people are allowed to engage in sexual relations with their spouse. The camera may or may not be monitored at anytime for the sake of your safety (1984 anyone?). This way no one is ever harmed by the effects of casual sex or other sexual abuses, and remember, its for your protection! Id like to add this onto every gun restriction bill since guns and non marital sex, are both evils which our civilized progressive culture must get beyond. Im sure everyone against guns will stand with me on this issue! ---------- What is the purpose of guns in America? + Show Spoiler +
Also the point of owning guns is to be able to fight off a military, whether it is the US or otherwise (its just a matter of when not if). So in fact, we are less well equipped as US citizens then we need to be. Muskets vs muskets was fair versus the British, but the advancement of military technology means that the militia and civillians must be equally matched. I could see the restriction of military vehicles or AA rockets (only for planes, AA vs helicopters is debatable) but I think RPGs, rockets, explosives, land mines, drones, bullet making machines, etc should be legal. A population doesn't have to be equally armed but with guerilla tactics the military presence needs to be 10x as strong, which is why fighting in arab countries is difficult, which ironically, every man woman and child in afghan has the liberty to own an AK-47. And AA rockets vs helicopters was a major help for the Afghans to kick out the soviets.
So if anything gun laws are way too strict, although if the liberals would give us rockets and the rest I think it would be fair to make handguns illegal, since those are mainly used in crime because they are cheap and stealthy. Whens the last time you saw someone mug someone with an rpg? Hey throw me your wallet, and don't step within 20ft of me or Ill shoot!
I think liberals are just mad that even if they took over the US and made it into a communist dictatorship the battle against freedom would only have started. And for you EU people, did you forget about Hitler and Stalin?
I don't like that argument. People are responsible for who they have sex with? (Unless it's rape, and by what I last heard, the law frowns upon that).
When it comes to having a gun pointed at your face, you don't get a choice. You can't rely on other people being responsible.
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I have been with the military for over 10 years, i love guns and hunting; being able to provide for my family and close friends with a very low cost is awesome. the fact of the recent shootings in the last 5 years makes me wonder whether or not civilians should have legal access to weapons. I have looked at many different sources of gun ownership statistics on many countries with and without weapon control laws. sadly America comes to the top of the list in violence associated with projectile weapons, this alone makes me sad. The recent elementary school shooting makes me weep as a father, I literally cannot imagine what these parents are going through even though I myself am a father of 3 amazing children.
This attack of children(recent news go to any major news page you will find it.) have brought me to the conclusion that if guns all guns, aside from single shot rifles or shotguns for hunting purposes only should be in civilians hands, being some one who uses guns every day this is an serious issue in the United States of America today, my stand on guns has forever changed for civilians. I can no longer support any owner ship of a fire arm, aside from hunting(IE: no Semi-Automatic weapons or Fully Automatic weapons)weapons for civilians to own there is so much information out there showing without the ability to own a weapon legally the crimes that happen pertaining to fire arms is much lower than so many ignorant people believe. (I will not link sources as there are to many; with 10 minutes of you're own time you can find all that's needed to understand me)
My heart truly goes out to those who have lost love ones today; the recent tragedy makes me sad.
(poorly worded; forgive a jar head)
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United States24701 Posts
On December 15 2012 12:55 Focuspants wrote:
I think banning assault weapons is a no brainer. I understand the complexity of the situation in the US, however, allowing people easy access to such lethal killing tools is insane. You dont need an assault rifle to defend yourself. The fact of the matter is, these people that shoot up schools, movie theaters, malls, etc... strike suddenly, in places where an assault weapon of your own as a law abiding citizen is nowhere to be found. Even if for some stupid reason you did have it on you, firing an automatic weapon in a public place like this would be careless.
These weapons are not for sport, not for home defense, etc... They are extremely efficient killing tools, capable of making anyone who holds it powerful, and able to kill many people in a very short time span. Weapons like that have no place in society.
Assault Weapons are almost entirely banned. I think what you are calling for is elimination of semi-automatic weapons and large-capacity magazines. There is definitely use in sport/hunting for multiple-capacity guns, but requiring a non-passive action doesn't seem so ridiculous to me.
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On December 15 2012 12:55 Focuspants wrote:
I think banning assault weapons is a no brainer. I understand the complexity of the situation in the US, however, allowing people easy access to such lethal killing tools is insane. You dont need an assault rifle to defend yourself. The fact of the matter is, these people that shoot up schools, movie theaters, malls, etc... strike suddenly, in places where an assault weapon of your own as a law abiding citizen is nowhere to be found. Even if for some stupid reason you did have it on you, firing an automatic weapon in a public place like this would be careless.
These weapons are not for sport, not for home defense, etc... They are extremely efficient killing tools, capable of making anyone who holds it powerful, and able to kill many people in a very short time span. Weapons like that have no place in society.
I will quote my previous post regarding this:
Can you define an assault weapon? People will soon realize they cannot. California tried and came up with terms like "evil looking features". You'll find you're going to be coming up with a lot of weird terms and conditionals for it to work. What's the difference between an AR-15 semi-automatic and a .223 sporting rifle? What makes one an assault rifle and the other a sporting one? They can be the same but also "different" at the same time? Is it the pistol grip? The cycling mechanism? The stock? What exactly? Machine guns are already banned in most places, but that's not what assault rifles are.
The point is that gun control laws are propagated mostly by people who do not understand or know enough about the topic. This leads to many problems with policy.
Also,
Keep in mind the Jared Loughner used a shotgun to shoot up the theater. Is the next step banning shotguns? Most gun crime involves handguns/pistols.
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On December 15 2012 12:52 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:47 micronesia wrote:On December 15 2012 12:42 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:39 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:34 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:28 NET wrote:
Will just reiterate a good point.
Illegal drugs are illegal. The people that want them will still get it. The same goes for weapons.
If a law abiding citizen wants to own and carry a gun, then I believe they should be able to, of course after a background check and such. If they make it illegal it will be sheep to the slaughter when a madman, who will obtain a weapon whether it be illegal or not wants to go on a rampage.
Imagine if the teacher was armed, at least then they would have stood a fair chance. We should not stand behind false flags when it comes to our(USA's) freedoms.
A funny meme I saw said, "So making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make meth and heroin illegal too."
My 2 cents. The mother of the killer was infact, a teacher at the school. those were in fact, her weapons (at least registered in her name).. that also killed her. Schools are firearm free zones. She wasn't allowed to have them on the premises. So you are not actually refuting his point that having a firearm there would have helped. It would have. This is in Israel (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg). Do I advocate what is in that particular picture? No. Maybe locked in a safe in the closet. But it is not as absurd as you imagine it to be. O.o i have no words... Either i don`t understand just how terrible and dangerous the USA is or how freaking afraid americans are I'm not quite sure how to break this to you, but Israel is not in the USA. Thats not what i was going at... The fact that he finds that not so absurd...
Assuming that arming everyone in every circumstance would make the world safer is just as ridiculous and inactionable as banning guns outright.
And if I had to choose an 'extreme' to live in, I would chose the latter. I don't want to live in a world where I can see a zit-faced barista's gun tucked into his shirt as he's stirring my fucking coffee.
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On December 15 2012 12:56 lonelyPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:52 blitzkrieger wrote:Should people be allowed to have sex out of marriage? As well know sex out of wedlock causes many problems such as AIDS and other STDs, and causes many deaths, even if you are liberal and don't count abortion as murder. AIDS and other STDs can even spread from mother to baby in the womb or at birth. Therefore I think we should require a marriage license in order to engage in any sexual activities, and you must go to your town hall and apply for a permit to marry. We live in a civilized society and casual sex is causing many deaths from STDs, haven't we progressed from our barbaric path of brutal lasciviousness? All other forms of sex should be outlawed completely since they can cause death through the ways mentioned earlier. How many brothels and sex slaves are there? Is human sexual trafficking ok? Its like being shot multiple times everyday without being able to die. How many child sex slaves are there? (Hint more than have been killed in mass shootings). With these new laws we could shut down prostitution, sex trafficking, and other forms of abuse worldwide that are often worse than death. Its only by allowing people to have sex whenever and with whoever they want, that these problems arise. AIDS can be spread through needles and its very easy to stab people in a crowd with an infected needle, but lets be real here, that doenst happen much and its much harder than just having casual sex. I mean how many cases of AIDS are from undesired needles versus casual sex? Its obviously much easier to kill with AIDS through casual sex. I propose we develop government regulated chastity belts with little cameras that can verify if and when people are allowed to engage in sexual relations with their spouse. The camera may or may not be monitored at anytime for the sake of your safety (1984 anyone?). This way no one is ever harmed by the effects of casual sex or other sexual abuses, and remember, its for your protection! Id like to add this onto every gun restriction bill since guns and non marital sex, are both evils which our civilized progressive culture must get beyond. Im sure everyone against guns will stand with me on this issue! ---------- What is the purpose of guns in America? + Show Spoiler +
Also the point of owning guns is to be able to fight off a military, whether it is the US or otherwise (its just a matter of when not if). So in fact, we are less well equipped as US citizens then we need to be. Muskets vs muskets was fair versus the British, but the advancement of military technology means that the militia and civillians must be equally matched. I could see the restriction of military vehicles or AA rockets (only for planes, AA vs helicopters is debatable) but I think RPGs, rockets, explosives, land mines, drones, bullet making machines, etc should be legal. A population doesn't have to be equally armed but with guerilla tactics the military presence needs to be 10x as strong, which is why fighting in arab countries is difficult, which ironically, every man woman and child in afghan has the liberty to own an AK-47. And AA rockets vs helicopters was a major help for the Afghans to kick out the soviets.
So if anything gun laws are way too strict, although if the liberals would give us rockets and the rest I think it would be fair to make handguns illegal, since those are mainly used in crime because they are cheap and stealthy. Whens the last time you saw someone mug someone with an rpg? Hey throw me your wallet, and don't step within 20ft of me or Ill shoot!
I think liberals are just mad that even if they took over the US and made it into a communist dictatorship the battle against freedom would only have started. And for you EU people, did you forget about Hitler and Stalin?
I don't like that argument. People are responsible for who they have sex with? (Unless it's rape, and by what I last heard, the law frowns upon that). When it comes to having a gun pointed at your face, you don't get a choice. You can't rely on other people being responsible.
Think of it this way. If someone runs into your university class brandishing a gun, you would probably be happy if there was an armed police officer to protect you, right? If the police officer could shoot the crazy guy before he killed anyone, a lot of lives would be saved.
The police can't be everywhere. But if normal law abiding citizens are allowed to carry guns, they can also serve an important role in keeping the peace. If the crazy guy shooting up your classroom was shot by a law-abiding, gun-toting citizen then that would save lives just as the police officer would.
Even if I choose not to carry a gun myself, I will feel safer if I know that other law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry them.
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On December 15 2012 12:55 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:46 magicmUnky wrote:
Yeah but if the guns are hard to obtain due to licensing and regulation, the demand will drop; it's a disincentive. If there are less guns floating around then why would home-owners want them for personal protection? If gun licenses are expensive then that's just another disincentive.
You're right that there's a huge cultural block but I think that's easier to deal with than it's been made out to be. I can only imagine that arguments like yours will win and that America will continue to be full of gun crime, on top of all the regular crime. I expect to see another psycho shooting up a school in the next year and the world will be thinking, "only in America". America is not full of gun crime. Look at this chart over a 15 year period. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/firearmnonfatalno.cfmDon't believe so much what you hear on the news, instead using your reasoning so we can preserve threatened principles.
To give that chart some scale, you should compare it to firearm violence rates in other countries.
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On December 15 2012 13:00 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:52 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:47 micronesia wrote:On December 15 2012 12:42 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:39 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:34 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:28 NET wrote:
Will just reiterate a good point.
Illegal drugs are illegal. The people that want them will still get it. The same goes for weapons.
If a law abiding citizen wants to own and carry a gun, then I believe they should be able to, of course after a background check and such. If they make it illegal it will be sheep to the slaughter when a madman, who will obtain a weapon whether it be illegal or not wants to go on a rampage.
Imagine if the teacher was armed, at least then they would have stood a fair chance. We should not stand behind false flags when it comes to our(USA's) freedoms.
A funny meme I saw said, "So making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make meth and heroin illegal too."
My 2 cents. The mother of the killer was infact, a teacher at the school. those were in fact, her weapons (at least registered in her name).. that also killed her. Schools are firearm free zones. She wasn't allowed to have them on the premises. So you are not actually refuting his point that having a firearm there would have helped. It would have. This is in Israel (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg). Do I advocate what is in that particular picture? No. Maybe locked in a safe in the closet. But it is not as absurd as you imagine it to be. O.o i have no words... Either i don`t understand just how terrible and dangerous the USA is or how freaking afraid americans are I'm not quite sure how to break this to you, but Israel is not in the USA. Thats not what i was going at... The fact that he finds that not so absurd... Assuming that arming everyone in every circumstance would make the world safer is just as ridiculous and inactionable as banning guns outright. And if I had to choose an 'extreme' to live in, I would chose the latter. I don't want to live in a world where I can see a zit-faced barista's gun tucked into his shirt as he's stirring my fucking coffee.
Lmfao, I agree. Owning a firearm =/= carrying it everywhere with you. Reasonable restrictions are best, but an outright ban is just nonsense. Also, just clarifying that I said I didn't agree with being armed in every, or even most, circumstance. Just the right to own.
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On December 15 2012 12:59 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:55 Focuspants wrote:
I think banning assault weapons is a no brainer. I understand the complexity of the situation in the US, however, allowing people easy access to such lethal killing tools is insane. You dont need an assault rifle to defend yourself. The fact of the matter is, these people that shoot up schools, movie theaters, malls, etc... strike suddenly, in places where an assault weapon of your own as a law abiding citizen is nowhere to be found. Even if for some stupid reason you did have it on you, firing an automatic weapon in a public place like this would be careless.
These weapons are not for sport, not for home defense, etc... They are extremely efficient killing tools, capable of making anyone who holds it powerful, and able to kill many people in a very short time span. Weapons like that have no place in society. I will quote my previous post regarding this: Can you define an assault weapon? People will soon realize they cannot. California tried and came up with terms like "evil looking features". You'll find you're going to be coming up with a lot of weird terms and conditionals for it to work. What's the difference between an AR-15 semi-automatic and a .223 sporting rifle? What makes one an assault rifle and the other a sporting one? They can be the same but also "different" at the same time? Is it the pistol grip? The cycling mechanism? The stock? What exactly? Machine guns are already banned in most places, but that's not what assault rifles are. The point is that gun control laws are propagated mostly by people who do not understand or know enough about the topic. This leads to many problems with policy. Also, Keep in mind the Jared Loughner used a shotgun to shoot up the theater. Is the next step banning shotguns? Most gun crime involves handguns/pistols.
Do what they do here in Canada. No matter what sort of gun you own, a clip only holds 3 or 4 bullets max. Allowing someone to walk around with a weapon that can fire hundreds of rounds off in a minute or two is ludicrous.
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On December 15 2012 13:01 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:56 lonelyPotato wrote:On December 15 2012 12:52 blitzkrieger wrote:Should people be allowed to have sex out of marriage? As well know sex out of wedlock causes many problems such as AIDS and other STDs, and causes many deaths, even if you are liberal and don't count abortion as murder. AIDS and other STDs can even spread from mother to baby in the womb or at birth. Therefore I think we should require a marriage license in order to engage in any sexual activities, and you must go to your town hall and apply for a permit to marry. We live in a civilized society and casual sex is causing many deaths from STDs, haven't we progressed from our barbaric path of brutal lasciviousness? All other forms of sex should be outlawed completely since they can cause death through the ways mentioned earlier. How many brothels and sex slaves are there? Is human sexual trafficking ok? Its like being shot multiple times everyday without being able to die. How many child sex slaves are there? (Hint more than have been killed in mass shootings). With these new laws we could shut down prostitution, sex trafficking, and other forms of abuse worldwide that are often worse than death. Its only by allowing people to have sex whenever and with whoever they want, that these problems arise. AIDS can be spread through needles and its very easy to stab people in a crowd with an infected needle, but lets be real here, that doenst happen much and its much harder than just having casual sex. I mean how many cases of AIDS are from undesired needles versus casual sex? Its obviously much easier to kill with AIDS through casual sex. I propose we develop government regulated chastity belts with little cameras that can verify if and when people are allowed to engage in sexual relations with their spouse. The camera may or may not be monitored at anytime for the sake of your safety (1984 anyone?). This way no one is ever harmed by the effects of casual sex or other sexual abuses, and remember, its for your protection! Id like to add this onto every gun restriction bill since guns and non marital sex, are both evils which our civilized progressive culture must get beyond. Im sure everyone against guns will stand with me on this issue! ---------- What is the purpose of guns in America? + Show Spoiler +
Also the point of owning guns is to be able to fight off a military, whether it is the US or otherwise (its just a matter of when not if). So in fact, we are less well equipped as US citizens then we need to be. Muskets vs muskets was fair versus the British, but the advancement of military technology means that the militia and civillians must be equally matched. I could see the restriction of military vehicles or AA rockets (only for planes, AA vs helicopters is debatable) but I think RPGs, rockets, explosives, land mines, drones, bullet making machines, etc should be legal. A population doesn't have to be equally armed but with guerilla tactics the military presence needs to be 10x as strong, which is why fighting in arab countries is difficult, which ironically, every man woman and child in afghan has the liberty to own an AK-47. And AA rockets vs helicopters was a major help for the Afghans to kick out the soviets.
So if anything gun laws are way too strict, although if the liberals would give us rockets and the rest I think it would be fair to make handguns illegal, since those are mainly used in crime because they are cheap and stealthy. Whens the last time you saw someone mug someone with an rpg? Hey throw me your wallet, and don't step within 20ft of me or Ill shoot!
I think liberals are just mad that even if they took over the US and made it into a communist dictatorship the battle against freedom would only have started. And for you EU people, did you forget about Hitler and Stalin?
I don't like that argument. People are responsible for who they have sex with? (Unless it's rape, and by what I last heard, the law frowns upon that). When it comes to having a gun pointed at your face, you don't get a choice. You can't rely on other people being responsible. Think of it this way. If someone runs into your university class brandishing a gun, you would probably be happy if there was an armed police officer to protect you, right? If the police officer could shoot the crazy guy before he killed anyone, a lot of lives would be saved. The police can't be everywhere. But if normal law abiding citizens are allowed to carry guns, they can also serve an important role in keeping the peace. If the crazy guy shooting up your classroom was shot by a law-abiding, gun-toting citizen then that would save lives just as the police officer would. Even if I choose not to carry a gun myself, I will feel safer if I know that other law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry them.
That doesn't make sense though, because rather than civilians using their fists to handle civil disputes, they'll start pulling out guns. Even me personally, I get pretty angry at people sometimes, and I wish I had a gun to sort it out (Luckily I don't).
Also the fact that you would receive millions of Vigilante situations that would be edgy in terms of prosecution. People would start shooting at people robbing gas stations when they aren't even armed.
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On December 15 2012 13:01 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:55 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:46 magicmUnky wrote:
Yeah but if the guns are hard to obtain due to licensing and regulation, the demand will drop; it's a disincentive. If there are less guns floating around then why would home-owners want them for personal protection? If gun licenses are expensive then that's just another disincentive.
You're right that there's a huge cultural block but I think that's easier to deal with than it's been made out to be. I can only imagine that arguments like yours will win and that America will continue to be full of gun crime, on top of all the regular crime. I expect to see another psycho shooting up a school in the next year and the world will be thinking, "only in America". America is not full of gun crime. Look at this chart over a 15 year period. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/firearmnonfatalno.cfmDon't believe so much what you hear on the news, instead using your reasoning so we can preserve threatened principles. To give that chart some scale, you should compare it to firearm violence rates in other countries.
I know it's a hard concept since I've been having to repeat it to you, but the U.S. is not Denmark, a nation of 5 million people. The cultures are completely different, the history different. It would make no sense to compare the two.
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On December 15 2012 13:05 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:55 Focuspants wrote:
I think banning assault weapons is a no brainer. I understand the complexity of the situation in the US, however, allowing people easy access to such lethal killing tools is insane. You dont need an assault rifle to defend yourself. The fact of the matter is, these people that shoot up schools, movie theaters, malls, etc... strike suddenly, in places where an assault weapon of your own as a law abiding citizen is nowhere to be found. Even if for some stupid reason you did have it on you, firing an automatic weapon in a public place like this would be careless.
These weapons are not for sport, not for home defense, etc... They are extremely efficient killing tools, capable of making anyone who holds it powerful, and able to kill many people in a very short time span. Weapons like that have no place in society. I will quote my previous post regarding this: Can you define an assault weapon? People will soon realize they cannot. California tried and came up with terms like "evil looking features". You'll find you're going to be coming up with a lot of weird terms and conditionals for it to work. What's the difference between an AR-15 semi-automatic and a .223 sporting rifle? What makes one an assault rifle and the other a sporting one? They can be the same but also "different" at the same time? Is it the pistol grip? The cycling mechanism? The stock? What exactly? Machine guns are already banned in most places, but that's not what assault rifles are. The point is that gun control laws are propagated mostly by people who do not understand or know enough about the topic. This leads to many problems with policy. Also, Keep in mind the Jared Loughner used a shotgun to shoot up the theater. Is the next step banning shotguns? Most gun crime involves handguns/pistols. Do what they do here in Canada. No matter what sort of gun you own, a clip only holds 3 or 4 bullets max. Allowing someone to walk around with a weapon that can fire hundreds of rounds off in a minute or two is ludicrous.
That's not good policy. What's preventing people from switching multiple mags. From customizing their own magazines? It's a fairly easy thing to do, and in your world no law-abiding citizen would have. But what about a person who wants to commit a crime or go on a shooting spree? I don't think they have much respect for the law.
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On December 15 2012 13:03 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:00 Defacer wrote:On December 15 2012 12:52 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:47 micronesia wrote:On December 15 2012 12:42 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:39 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 12:34 Destro wrote:On December 15 2012 12:28 NET wrote:
Will just reiterate a good point.
Illegal drugs are illegal. The people that want them will still get it. The same goes for weapons.
If a law abiding citizen wants to own and carry a gun, then I believe they should be able to, of course after a background check and such. If they make it illegal it will be sheep to the slaughter when a madman, who will obtain a weapon whether it be illegal or not wants to go on a rampage.
Imagine if the teacher was armed, at least then they would have stood a fair chance. We should not stand behind false flags when it comes to our(USA's) freedoms.
A funny meme I saw said, "So making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make meth and heroin illegal too."
My 2 cents. The mother of the killer was infact, a teacher at the school. those were in fact, her weapons (at least registered in her name).. that also killed her. Schools are firearm free zones. She wasn't allowed to have them on the premises. So you are not actually refuting his point that having a firearm there would have helped. It would have. This is in Israel (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg). Do I advocate what is in that particular picture? No. Maybe locked in a safe in the closet. But it is not as absurd as you imagine it to be. O.o i have no words... Either i don`t understand just how terrible and dangerous the USA is or how freaking afraid americans are I'm not quite sure how to break this to you, but Israel is not in the USA. Thats not what i was going at... The fact that he finds that not so absurd... Assuming that arming everyone in every circumstance would make the world safer is just as ridiculous and inactionable as banning guns outright. And if I had to choose an 'extreme' to live in, I would chose the latter. I don't want to live in a world where I can see a zit-faced barista's gun tucked into his shirt as he's stirring my fucking coffee. Lmfao, I agree. Owning a firearm =/= carrying it everywhere with you. Reasonable restrictions are best, but an outright ban is just nonsense. Also, just clarifying that I said I didn't agree with being armed in every, or even most, circumstance. Just the right to own.
Why is an outright ban nonsense? I hear the rest of the first world's doing a-o-k without them
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On December 15 2012 12:43 Eishi_Ki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 11:54 Kaitlin wrote:On December 15 2012 11:39 Eishi_Ki wrote:
'We must protect our civil liberties!'
Do you really think there is a single person in a true first world country who feels even remotely oppressed that they can't own a gun?
A car causes deaths. Verb association: driving
A cigarette causes deaths. Verb association: smoking
Alcohol causes deaths. Verb association: drinking
Guns cause deaths. Verb association: .............
Fill in the blank; but if I was to see a gun, it certainly wouldn't be ' protecting' 'Deterring' comes to mind. And it's not even that a criminal knows someone to be armed. It's that the criminal has no idea whether people are armed, and how many. You don't often hear news reports of gun shops being robbed, not during business hours, at least. However, we see stories of places where guns are prohibited being violated all too frequently these days. Having said that, there are times when it doesn't much matter. This kid that shot up the school and killed his parents didn't see a gun and decide it would be a good idea to kill some people that day. He had decided to kill himself and take many people out with him. If guns didn't exist, he would have accomplished it with some other weapon, a bomb, fire, knife, car, whatever. Really? And that's why we have all these mass murders into suicides in the rest of the world huh. Blame it on mindset if you like, you're avoiding the simple fact that with no guns, there is very little to no gun crime (whodathunk)
Except the fact is that the illegality of guns does not equal no guns.
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On December 15 2012 12:57 Nazarid wrote:
I have been with the military for over 10 years, i love guns and hunting; being able to provide for my family and close friends with a very low cost is awesome. the fact of the recent shootings in the last 5 years makes me wonder whether or not civilians should have legal access to weapons. I have looked at many different sources of gun ownership statistics on many countries with and without weapon control laws. sadly America comes to the top of the list in violence associated with projectile weapons, this alone makes me sad. The recent elementary school shooting makes me weep as a father, I literally cannot imagine what these parents are going through even though I myself am a father of 3 amazing children.
This attack of children(recent news go to any major news page you will find it.) have brought me to the conclusion that if guns all guns, aside from single shot rifles or shotguns for hunting purposes only should be in civilians hands, being some one who uses guns every day this is an serious issue in the United States of America today, my stand on guns has forever changed for civilians. I can no longer support any owner ship of a fire arm, aside from hunting(IE: no Semi-Automatic weapons or Fully Automatic weapons)weapons for civilians to own there is so much information out there showing without the ability to own a weapon legally the crimes that happen pertaining to fire arms is much lower than so many ignorant people believe. (I will not link sources as there are to many; with 10 minutes of you're own time you can find all that's needed to understand me)
My heart truly goes out to those who have lost love ones today; the recent tragedy makes me sad.
(poorly worded; forgive a jar head)
My utmost respect for you, sir. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts. The short time I spent in the army (in Norway) I too fell in love with guns, but never in my right mind would I EVER think about owning the guns we were using; automatic rifles, semi-automatic pistols etc.
I cannot fathom the gun law policy in America and truely hope for a change.
My deepest thoughts goes out to the families and everyone who lost their loved ones.
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Nagano i think you just made over 100 posts in a few hours in this topic. You must really like guns Oo
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EPT
