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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 21 2012 21:42 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:24 Ezod wrote:On July 21 2012 21:19 hifriend wrote:On July 21 2012 21:12 Ezod wrote:
This is very simple. Good people don't do mass shootings. Gun laws only affect law abiding citizens. Other countries allow guns other than the USA which proves the gun murders have more to do with culture than the actual use of guns. HERE'S A SIMPLE TRUTH - SINCE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO EVER EVER EVER REMOVE THE GUNS FROM THIS EARTH, YOU MUST ACCEPT THE FACT THAT UNTIL THEY ALL CAN ALL BE REMOVED/DESTROYED BAD PEOPLE WILL HAVE GUNS. AND GOOD PEOPLE WITH GUNS are THE ONY WAY TO STOP THE BAD PEOPLE WITH GUNS. Please don't try to say that "our goverment is nice and wouldn't hurt us etc. etc." because this is irrelevant. Power and money corrupt - the founding fathers understood this - ARMED CITIZENS ARE THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE FROM TYRANICAL GOVERNMENTS. So even if you think ANY goverment in the world shits flowers and cupcakes...give it time....because history has shown again and again that sometimes the good guys gotta stand up to evil to protect human rights and freedom. Magical fairy land: guns do not exist. Reality: good people need the ability to defend themselves until bad people go away. Everytime in history a goverment was tyranical evil communist (millions dead) etc... the VERY FIRST THING THEY DO IS DISARM THE POPULATION. THINK ABOUT IT. and google it. None of that will matter one bit if the government has the military on its side. It has mattered tons of time throughout history and didn't a few mid-eastern countries recently overthrow goverments with huge armed resistances little while back ya know I heard something about it.....Lerbia, Egykt... I forget....OH WELL BACK TO VIDEO GAMES AND HOT POCKETS TORLOLOLOLOLOL While 20 years ago whole Eastern Europe liberated itself without major military clashes. In Poland during transformation no shots were fired at all, those were fired 10 years earlier during martial law. And it weren't the citizens who did the shooting, but militia did by firing on unarmed miners. While it mattered tons of time throughout history, there are other ways.
Thank You for posting something with substance. This is 100% correct. and in every single situation we EVER encounter it should always be resolved without violence. diplomacy is ALWAYS the best option. But in reality after diplomacy fails what do you do then? Violence should be the LAST option but also you have to realize it doesn't always work. It's like the fire extinguisher in your house. Most of them are never ever used, but you have them "just in case". This is exactly why the founding fathers made the constitution the way they did. That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America.
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Swiss is a low crime area, the usa a high crime area.
While manny people in swiss own a gun,thoose people are also verry restrained in using it.
I think in the usa it is culturally alot more accepted to not only own a gun, but also use it.
Americans are more trigger happy then swiss in general so to say.
Swiss also is a tight community, the usa is verry fragmented by race and differences in wealth.
this might be a reason for swiss to be an area with low crime, while the usa is a high crime area, there is less social coherence in the usa wich leads to higher crime.
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On July 21 2012 21:49 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:46 Sumsi wrote:On July 21 2012 21:20 Silidons wrote:I don't understand how people can think that more guns = safer society. What do you think when you look at a chart like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateWhat does that list show? Countries with more gun regulation = less people are killed every year. I'm not sure how someone can look at information like that, and say "Well, more guns = less crime I guess." This chart makes no statement about gun regulation. So how can it be that a country like Switzerland with relatively low gun regulation, a country where almost every houshold owns a gun stands so low on that cart? This has to do with the maturity of the society. Hell, Switzerland recently voted in favour of increasing the retirement age.
The sale of ammunition is also regulated by the swiss government, and to be allowed to carry a weapon in public you have to proof that you are able to use it, that you need it and that you are not a crazy moron.
edit:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document
...lol
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United States5162 Posts
On July 21 2012 21:53 Rassy wrote:
Swiss is a low crime area, the usa a high crime area.
While manny people in swiss own a gun,thoose people are also verry restrained in using it.
I think in the usa it is culturally alot more accepted to not only own a gun, but also use it.
Americans are more trigger happy then swiss in general so to say.
Swiss also is a tight community, the usa is verry fragmented by race and differences in wealth.
this might be a reason for swiss to be an area with low crime, while the usa is a high crime area, there is less social coherence in the usa wich leads to higher crime.
Yes, the reason for US crime and murder rate have far more to do with socioeconomic problems rather than just access to guns. And banning guns in the US isn't only not supported and probably physically impossible, but would make things far worse at this point.
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On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:42 Roman666 wrote:On July 21 2012 21:24 Ezod wrote:On July 21 2012 21:19 hifriend wrote:On July 21 2012 21:12 Ezod wrote:
This is very simple. Good people don't do mass shootings. Gun laws only affect law abiding citizens. Other countries allow guns other than the USA which proves the gun murders have more to do with culture than the actual use of guns. HERE'S A SIMPLE TRUTH - SINCE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO EVER EVER EVER REMOVE THE GUNS FROM THIS EARTH, YOU MUST ACCEPT THE FACT THAT UNTIL THEY ALL CAN ALL BE REMOVED/DESTROYED BAD PEOPLE WILL HAVE GUNS. AND GOOD PEOPLE WITH GUNS are THE ONY WAY TO STOP THE BAD PEOPLE WITH GUNS. Please don't try to say that "our goverment is nice and wouldn't hurt us etc. etc." because this is irrelevant. Power and money corrupt - the founding fathers understood this - ARMED CITIZENS ARE THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE FROM TYRANICAL GOVERNMENTS. So even if you think ANY goverment in the world shits flowers and cupcakes...give it time....because history has shown again and again that sometimes the good guys gotta stand up to evil to protect human rights and freedom. Magical fairy land: guns do not exist. Reality: good people need the ability to defend themselves until bad people go away. Everytime in history a goverment was tyranical evil communist (millions dead) etc... the VERY FIRST THING THEY DO IS DISARM THE POPULATION. THINK ABOUT IT. and google it. None of that will matter one bit if the government has the military on its side. It has mattered tons of time throughout history and didn't a few mid-eastern countries recently overthrow goverments with huge armed resistances little while back ya know I heard something about it.....Lerbia, Egykt... I forget....OH WELL BACK TO VIDEO GAMES AND HOT POCKETS TORLOLOLOLOLOL While 20 years ago whole Eastern Europe liberated itself without major military clashes. In Poland during transformation no shots were fired at all, those were fired 10 years earlier during martial law. And it weren't the citizens who did the shooting, but militia did by firing on unarmed miners. While it mattered tons of time throughout history, there are other ways. Thank You for posting something with substance. This is 100% correct. and in every single situation we EVER encounter it should always be resolved without violence. diplomacy is ALWAYS the best option. But in reality after diplomacy fails what do you do then? Violence should be the LAST option but also you have to realize it doesn't always work. It's like the fire extinguisher in your house. Most of them are never ever used, but you have them "just in case". This is exactly why the founding fathers made the constitution the way they did. That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America.
Except that nowadays, only few of US Citizens adhere to those values. And its a damn shame.
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On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America.
You mean by killing thousands, humiliating them (Iraq), throwing people in Guantanamo, putting puppets or not achieving anything (Afghanistan, Vietnam) ?
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On July 21 2012 21:46 Sumsi wrote:This chart makes no statement about gun regulation. So how can it be that a country like Switzerland with relatively low gun regulation, a country where almost every houshold owns a gun stands so low on that cart?
Switzerland is not very low on the chart, it's mid-high. The chart makes a statement about gun regulation, because if you can read it, you can see that as the total fire-arm related deaths (based on % of pop) decreases, it is directly proportional with gun regulation laws of that country.
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On July 21 2012 21:57 Maxquatre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America. You mean by killing thousands, humiliating them (Iraq), throwing people in Guantanamo, putting puppets or not achieving anything (Afghanistan, Vietnam) ?
Dont forget the overthrowing of elected governments in Central America
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On July 21 2012 21:53 Rassy wrote:
Swiss is a low crime area, the usa a high crime area.
While manny people in swiss own a gun,thoose people are also verry restrained in using it.
I think in the usa it is culturally alot more accepted to not only own a gun, but also use it.
Americans are more trigger happy then swiss in general so to say.
Swiss also is a tight community, the usa is verry fragmented by race and differences in wealth.
this might be a reason for swiss to be an area with low crime, while the usa is a high crime area, there is less social coherence in the usa wich leads to higher crime.
Also we should notice that basically every state in the US has its own gun regulation laws AFAIK. Thus the correlation between gun victims and gun regulation could differ from state to state.
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On July 21 2012 21:51 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:19 Cuce wrote:
accually citizens who put time effort and courage to check up on their goverments are only way to protect people from tyranical goverments.
you can but the cheapsest full auto ak-47 in most countries in middle east, and even cheaper and easier in africa, beleive me it doesn't prevent shit.
proper way to stop bad guys, it to prevent situation that generate bad guys. then its to have proper non-bias jurisdictional methods to beal with remaining bad guys.
Arming civilians, and making it common practice to use firearms for self defence would just give bad guys more reason to shot civilians. you might not want to beleive it, but bad guys do try to avoid killing people. Its too much trouble and too much heat. you will get away with a burglary, but not with a break in and murder. Wouldn't the high turnover rate for african regimes be proof that an armed populace is the best way to get rid of an unpopular government? The fact that they're replaced by equally bad governments is a factor of the people themselves and has nothing to do with guns.
I gotta agree intervals are rather short but result does not change.
There is nothing to stop those who took the power through firearms from using same power on the populace.
firearms and their use is so common even against unarmed -since everyone can be armed- there is no resolve to change the situation. rarely a revulution goverment acts nice beauce of balance of power since there is none. the stability, and methods of a newly founded goverment are mostly based on common practices of the populace.
unfortunaly in africas case its normal to shoot people, and I am not yet ready to seperate this from lack of firearm regulation.
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On July 21 2012 21:59 Ventris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:57 Maxquatre wrote:On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America. You mean by killing thousands, humiliating them (Iraq), throwing people in Guantanamo, putting puppets or not achieving anything (Afghanistan, Vietnam) ? Dont forget the overthrowing of elected governments in Central America
Well, democracy doesn't come without a price! *wink wink*
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On July 21 2012 21:57 Maxquatre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty. it's very hard to oppress America because of that document. The ability to remove tryanical goverments is built into the very fabric of America. You mean by killing thousands, humiliating them (Iraq), throwing people in Guantanamo, putting puppets or not achieving anything (Afghanistan, Vietnam) ?
In order to do this (go to war without congressional approval, remove habeas corpus etc., they had to create laws like the patriot act. THEY HAD TO DESTROY THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION. The patriot act was signed very late at night on new years eve among other legislation that has been passed recently. Obama says "I take my military orders from the UN, NOT CONGRESS"
THIS IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION.
That's why I said it's hard to have a tyranical goverment. It doesn't mean they aren't trying. It's the citizens job to get involved and diplomatically deal with the situation.
http://www.investorplace.com/investorpolitics/what-obama-slipped-by-us-on-new-years-eve/
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
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Its very hard for me to participatie in this thread, because where i come from it's not allowed to shoot a burglar entering your house. unless you can prove you really have to (self-defence for example).
But what i want to point out is this:
When I hear a burglar in my house, i'm not affraid to approach him and scare him off by yelling. I know the chance of him having a gun is so slim (and the chance he would use it is even more slim) that i am not affraid. Now my country is very crowded, there is almost no isolated place anymore, and it is uncomparable with the situation in the USA where the chance of a burglar having a gun is not as slim.
But my question is, is your right of owning a gun so important? Or would you change to the situation in the Netherlands if you had the chance? (although it is highly theoretical because of culture, the fact guns circulate alot already, the isolated areas in the USA, etc etc)
Next to that, do you have an insurance which pays your stolen goods? Here everyone has one, it's cheap and nobody cares if there stuff get's stolen. Except if it's personal stuff / unreplacable stuff. In the Netherlands there was even a minister (Cohen) who said: 'i believe it is not stealing, when you take a bread when you are hungry'
I think this shows the rights / opinions about burglars in the Netherlands.
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On July 21 2012 22:15 Ezod wrote:
In order to do this (go to war without congressional approval, remove habeas corpus etc., they had to create laws like the patriot act. THEY HAD TO DESTROY THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION. The patriot act was signed very late at night on new years eve among other legislation that has been passed recently. Obama says "I take my military orders from the UN, NOT CONGRESS"
are you sure?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR03162:@@@X < timeline of the original patriot act law
on the other hand, this is not a threat about the political situation in the US...
On topic: I'm really happy they regulate guns in Germany as they do (pretty strong), it's not something everyone should have in their basements "just in case we have to kill the government"
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Take two states with nearly opposite gun laws, on almost different sides of the planet.
Vermont and Hawaii.
Vermont...nearly anything goes. Buy what you want. Open/conceal carry it wherever you want. No licenses of any kind required. And they are extremely low crime. A 16 year old girl can go trick-or-treating on Halloween dressed as Laura Croft with two REAL .50 cal Desert Eagles on thigh holsters. That's all legal.
Hawaii...is also pretty safe compared to nearly all other places.
But Hawaii they has probably some of the most restricitve state-level gun laws in the US outside of some cities like NY/Chicago/DC. You can't buy anything without out permits, permissions, and background checks. Almost impossible to carry anything in public...open or concealed.
Are the restrictive gun laws what make Hawaii safe? Are the permissive gun laws what make Vermont safe?
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On July 21 2012 22:45 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 22:15 Ezod wrote:
In order to do this (go to war without congressional approval, remove habeas corpus etc., they had to create laws like the patriot act. THEY HAD TO DESTROY THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION. The patriot act was signed very late at night on new years eve among other legislation that has been passed recently. Obama says "I take my military orders from the UN, NOT CONGRESS" are you sure? http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR03162:@@@X < timeline of the original patriot act law on the other hand, this is not a threat about the political situation in the US... On topic: I'm really happy they regulate guns in Germany as they do (pretty strong), it's not something everyone should have in their basements "just in case we have to kill the government"
sometimes the "big scary goblin government hiding under your bed" DOES exist...even if is sounds silly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias
and you were right it's not patriot act it's the NDAA (which is basically the permanent version of the temporary patriot act made by bush). I'm basically saying that they have to go through a series of changes to create loop holes.
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On July 21 2012 21:52 Ezod wrote:
That's why America has always been a beacon of freedom and liberty
Well, at least they like to think of themselves as such a beacon.  But there's plenty of people around the world who would disagree with that statement.
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Are the restrictive gun laws what make Hawaii safe? Are the permissive gun laws what make Vermont safe?
Gunlaws off course do not neccesarely make a place safe or unsafe, though they can make a situation worse or better.
Wouldnt it make sense to have more restrict gun laws in places wich are generally unsafe?
I think the pros (less easier acces to guns for everyone, including criminals and crazy people, and guns less likely to be used because it isnt culture accepted or common) are bigger then the cons (people dont have guns so cant defend themselves if needed)
Though i guess this is an ethernal discussion where it is difficult for either side to proove he is right.
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EPT
