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On February 05 2012 05:07 G3CKO wrote:
People remember Relic for CoH and DoW and not HOMEWORLD??
Also Relic can't balance their games at all, look at all their games. It's one of the reasons why their game don't have a long running online community. Such a shame that a company full of people with a lot of creativity is dragged down by the gameplay and balancing departments.
Examples:
DoW I: Entire Necron race, Eldar fleet of foot
DoW II: Let's give nob squads big shootas that does like 15 dps and 100% accuracy on the move!
CoH: Let's take away the only thing the Germans have against armor spam, and buff the already OP Allies even more!
The balancing and gameplay departments weren't the problem in Relic (or at least, DoW/CoH), from what I observed (although obviously I can't prove it). They knew exactly what was wrong with the game and continually had good input, balance suggestions and so on from the top players. As for this input, I know they reported to the game designers and the producers. It looked like they jsut got ignored. Repeatedly. From my own personal point of view, it was no surprise that the moment I was talking to depressed, and restless members of the balance team that the quality of Relic games began to slip significantly.. These guys knew what the problems were - and they had lists reporting them. The opinions were there for the management to heed, and they clearly did not. DoW2 and CoH really reflected this, which is about the time I stopped having anything to do with Relic, beyond writing one last Blog Post ripping into DoW2. The decrease in quality didn't stop, it just sped up - and I believe more and more of it had to do with THQ.
Trust me, it was very clear to anyone with an ear to the management in that game who played competitively that the producers did not give the slightest fuck about game balance or design the second it contrasted with their 'vision' of how the game should work. The farce through not balancing a game-winning bug stack-able usable through competitive MP in SoulStorm for months proved it.
Relic bleeding cash and Talent is a shame, because they have always had the ability to turn it around and produce great titles like the Homeworld series, or DoW. But from what I personally saw being involved in their communities and games, the seeds of their downfall were sown a long time ago, and that also reflects on the greater THQ organisation. That their current CEO was more of a number-cruncher who valued the 'audience' over product also doesn't surprise me.
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On April 02 2012 13:25 Manit0u wrote:
DoW1 was also about capping points and what most players did was battling over them most of the time. What's different in DoW2? The only thing that comes to my mind would be early base rushes, but that's such a small part of it that it's negligible.
Tells me you haven't really played the first game.
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However unsubstantial my opinion is...
When I was little I remember that whenever I felt like I was playing a shitty console game be it Playstation or N64, I would see those letters THQ flash on the screen...
and thus THQ would forever be burned into my head as a developer of shitty games.
Never played DoW or CoH. Kinda makes sense when it's THQ who keeps reeling out poopoo movie games and perpetuates the unfortunate cycle
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On February 06 2012 03:21 Santiago4ever wrote:Nerf Eldar  I find it hard to imagine a company such as Relic going into the gutter, I really hope THQ doesn't manage to go under and bring them with them in the fall. Now go make me a DoW3 that is a polished DoW1 without all the crap from DoW2!!! Also, make me Homeworld 3 now. Shut up and take my money if you do!
Now that takes me back. Ahh Santi, the golden days when your advice was sought after by all those who hated Eldar and your humour was admired by many. Even now I have dreams about those days. (Me=NightRapier btw).
As for the general topic, I think we can all agree that love it or hate it, DoW was a big name in the RTS franchise for some time. CoH was big too (maybe bigger, I never got into the competitive scene for it myself). And almighty mother of god, if you think Homeworld (mainly the original, Vaygr are small time) is anything short of the bee's knees then you must surely be an Australian who votes Labour. If Relic goes under, RTS has very little big names to keep it chugging along as a genre. I mean, let's be honest: good old fashioned RTS are one of the few genres still in existence (RIP Space Sims, Freespace 2 you will never be topped) that bring a true level of satisfaction and achievement into the gameplay without grinding your hours away Runescape style. Let's have a look at the genres alive today:
-RPG's that aren't RPG's (Hurrrrr I'm the Catalyst I'm 8 years old, oh hello evil synthetics that don't exist yet I heard you like killing all humans so I put a synthetic in your humans so you can kill all humans while you prevent killing all humans, also shitty gunplay and blue alien sex and stupid sexy femshepherd in spandex).
-FPS that are not FPS (AMERICUUUUUH, FUCK YEAR, Hey guys people have been complaining that Quake III was too hard so we'll make your guns shoot for you and bring in 6 million squadmates and replace everything ever with scripted events, it's like watching a movie but they need to pay for a mouse and keyboard! PROMOTE THAT MAN!)
-Indie games (Recettear and Plants vs Zombies are cool, sure. But it's just like monkeys on typewriters, if you let 10,000 nobodies make nobody games for nobodies then 10 are guaranteed to be good).
-MMORPG (Or "Dr. People who aren't WoW or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Bankruptcy).
-RTS (For men, by men. It's like the barbells and tuna sandwiches of gaming.)
If RTS dies to be replaced by "Starcraft" (and Total War if you want to count TBS/RTS), sure the genre still rocks but it lacks any variety at all, which basically makes it a dead genre. That's my concern here: not that idiot managers lose their jobs so they can go get a real job breaking rocks and showering with muscular bearded men who knock down trees for a hobby, but that Relic will suffer and RTS will die. Perhaps this is just my kneejerk reaction, but I cannot be the only one who thinks of RTS and immediately thinks "Blizzard and Relic". It will be a sad day indeed if Relic gets sucked into the mismanagement that is THQ. If there was any justice EA would go down too.
I will concede, however, that reric make bug.
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On April 02 2012 15:53 0mar wrote:
THQ is just the vanguard of the video game bubble bursting.
Most of the major publisher's stocks have either been flat or trending down for the last 5 years. Dumping $50 million into each game and not having them recoup costs is killing the industry. It's looking more and more likely that the indie/small-time game is going to be the major driver, not massive triple A undertakings.
everything you said is wrong its the tripple A titles that will stay and the SMALL titles will go do you know anything about the industry? why dont you take a look at all the small studios that have closed down the big guys are the ones sticking around use your head its a valuable asset there are only a few cases where a good game was made and didnt sell well enough to recoup costs please educate yourself more before you make comments that are mostly untrue. the one true thing you said is the stocks of all of these companies have been dropping but that because just 4 years ago we had an economic crash and everyones stocks were dropping and there not all going down you know look at activision and blizzard there still going strong and so is ubisoft and EA although they have both had their fair share of flop titles
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On April 02 2012 19:32 Jugglenaught wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 03:21 Santiago4ever wrote:Nerf Eldar I find it hard to imagine a company such as Relic going into the gutter, I really hope THQ doesn't manage to go under and bring them with them in the fall. Now go make me a DoW3 that is a polished DoW1 without all the crap from DoW2!!! Also, make me Homeworld 3 now. Shut up and take my money if you do! Now that takes me back. Ahh Santi, the golden days when your advice was sought after by all those who hated Eldar and your humour was admired by many. Even now I have dreams about those days. (Me=NightRapier btw). As for the general topic, I think we can all agree that love it or hate it, DoW was a big name in the RTS franchise for some time. CoH was big too (maybe bigger, I never got into the competitive scene for it myself). And almighty mother of god, if you think Homeworld (mainly the original, Vaygr are small time) is anything short of the bee's knees then you must surely be an Australian who votes Labour. If Relic goes under, RTS has very little big names to keep it chugging along as a genre. I mean, let's be honest: good old fashioned RTS are one of the few genres still in existence (RIP Space Sims, Freespace 2 you will never be topped) that bring a true level of satisfaction and achievement into the gameplay without grinding your hours away Runescape style. Let's have a look at the genres alive today: -RPG's that aren't RPG's (Hurrrrr I'm the Catalyst I'm 8 years old, oh hello evil synthetics that don't exist yet I heard you like killing all humans so I put a synthetic in your humans so you can kill all humans while you prevent killing all humans, also shitty gunplay and blue alien sex and stupid sexy femshepherd in spandex). -FPS that are not FPS (AMERICUUUUUH, FUCK YEAR, Hey guys people have been complaining that Quake III was too hard so we'll make your guns shoot for you and bring in 6 million squadmates and replace everything ever with scripted events, it's like watching a movie but they need to pay for a mouse and keyboard! PROMOTE THAT MAN!) -Indie games (Recettear and Plants vs Zombies are cool, sure. But it's just like monkeys on typewriters, if you let 10,000 nobodies make nobody games for nobodies then 10 are guaranteed to be good). -MMORPG (Or "Dr. People who aren't WoW or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Bankruptcy). -RTS (For men, by men. It's like the barbells and tuna sandwiches of gaming.) If RTS dies to be replaced by "Starcraft" (and Total War if you want to count TBS/RTS), sure the genre still rocks but it lacks any variety at all, which basically makes it a dead genre. That's my concern here: not that idiot managers lose their jobs so they can go get a real job breaking rocks and showering with muscular bearded men who knock down trees for a hobby, but that Relic will suffer and RTS will die. Perhaps this is just my kneejerk reaction, but I cannot be the only one who thinks of RTS and immediately thinks "Blizzard and Relic". It will be a sad day indeed if Relic gets sucked into the mismanagement that is THQ. If there was any justice EA would go down too. I will concede, however, that reric make bug.
i feel the same way RTS genre is drying up on titles all i think of when i think RTS is blizzard, relic, and EA (and a little bit of total war). and then i thought wait i wonder how many RTS games are even coming out in the next year or so i could only think of 2 C&C generals 2 and HOTS this is sad. as a sidenote i still play COH by the way for anyone who has that game there is a mod called modern combat its COH revamped and they brough it to modern day they added in helis tanks all the new infantry humvs the list goes on its really good give it a try its free also the people who made it work for relic and they improved the tank ai drastically probably the only thing that was bad about company of heroes main point is soon the only publishers/ developers left will be ubisoft, EA, Blizzard, Activision(the producer of shitty games that are all pretty much the same) for thq to go under i feel is almost inevitable but if relic can be saved and picked up by blizzard or publisher that wont rush them then atleast we didnt lose the important part of THQ
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On April 02 2012 23:47 RIPJAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:53 0mar wrote:
THQ is just the vanguard of the video game bubble bursting.
Most of the major publisher's stocks have either been flat or trending down for the last 5 years. Dumping $50 million into each game and not having them recoup costs is killing the industry. It's looking more and more likely that the indie/small-time game is going to be the major driver, not massive triple A undertakings. everything you said is wrong its the tripple A titles that will stay and the SMALL titles will go do you know anything about the industry? why dont you take a look at all the small studios that have closed down the big guys are the ones sticking around use your head its a valuable asset there are only a few cases where a good game was made and didnt sell well enough to recoup costs please educate yourself more before you make comments that are mostly untrue. the one true thing you said is the stocks of all of these companies have been dropping but that because just 4 years ago we had an economic crash and everyones stocks were dropping and there not all going down you know look at activision and blizzard there still going strong and so is ubisoft and EA although they have both had their fair share of flop titles
The whole industry is going to crash again, just like it did in the 80's, at least I hope it does.
I'd love to see Call of Duty MW4 buried in the New Mexico desert alongside all those ET cartridges.
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On April 02 2012 18:29 ain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:25 Manit0u wrote:
DoW1 was also about capping points and what most players did was battling over them most of the time. What's different in DoW2? The only thing that comes to my mind would be early base rushes, but that's such a small part of it that it's negligible.
Tells me you haven't really played the first game.
DOW 1>>>>>>>> DOW2 by a long shot DOW2 i couldnt stand it i love base building and early rushes and all things that DOW1 had its an important dynamic of every game imagine sc2 if there were still base building but early rushes were impossible then the game would be incredibly dull because nothing happens for the first 10 minutes and everyone will just play extremely greedy and not have a care in the world boy zerg would be unbeatable lol
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On April 01 2012 03:33 ain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 02:23 Disarray wrote:
DoW2 was a great game, and the change in tactical direction was the best thing they could have done for that series. a 40k RTS shouldn't be about basebuilding and macroing your econ to resupply mass ammounts of troops. It should be about having limited troops and using them in a tactical way. If you want to play Starcraft with 40k models, play DoW1.
Don't tarnish the great things with DoW2 because you were too poor of a player to recognize the great things they did to that game. DoW 1 wasnt macro heavy at all and definitely cant be compared to Starcraft. It had minimal base building and very dynamic eco and combat systems. DoW 2 was more about capping points than it was about fighting and thats why it failed.
DoW1 was definitely macro heavy, and how the hell was DoW2 a failure ? It did very well
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On April 02 2012 06:19 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 01 2012 04:03 TehPrime wrote:
It's pretty obvious that companies like Relic will get picked up by another publisher, since they have established series created from them, if THQ goes under. no, that is not obvious. do you know how many employees worked for Relic before and after this layoff of 39 people? no? :D Relic does not own the IP. Relic is crippled by these layoffs and most of the employees who created the games of their hey day are long gone. if another publisher picks them up they may take a few key employees from Relic and incorporate them into a different studio as happened with EALA and Victory/BioWare. unless u own a crystal ball u have no idea what the future of the now crippled Relic is. Well. if 19% of their staff was laid off... And you say 39 people were laid off, what ever would the answer be??
19% of their staff is not laid off.
that figure was from a previous THQ ONLY lay off.
they are not divulging percentage figures for Relic because its more than 25% of the place.
this new round of layoffs is separate from teh previously announced layoffs from 6 weeks ago and it is directly attributable to their new MMO's future revenue projections being drastically cut back. this is because its being "re focused" as a single player game and not an MMO with monthly subscription fees.
the get an idea of how Relic is having the heart and soul of the company ripped out check out this...
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=876361
that would've made it "40" not .. "39" ... but he left early knowing what was coming....
every remaining employee at Relic is looking for another job.
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On April 03 2012 00:06 RIPJAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:29 ain wrote:On April 02 2012 13:25 Manit0u wrote:
DoW1 was also about capping points and what most players did was battling over them most of the time. What's different in DoW2? The only thing that comes to my mind would be early base rushes, but that's such a small part of it that it's negligible.
Tells me you haven't really played the first game. DOW 1>>>>>>>> DOW2 by a long shot DOW2 i couldnt stand it i love base building and early rushes and all things that DOW1 had its an important dynamic of every game imagine sc2 if there were still base building but early rushes were impossible then the game would be incredibly dull because nothing happens for the first 10 minutes and everyone will just play extremely greedy and not have a care in the world boy zerg would be unbeatable lol
DoW1 pre WA (so whtieout any addons) was glorious and had tons of potential
Then, instead of balancing and improving it, they totally and utterly destroyed and raped it with a giant cock that had "let's dumb stuff down" written all over it. It was still halfway decent but they tryed hard to make it worse with every further addon they released...
Well.. To bad for THQ..
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I would do unspeakable things for a new Homeworld game...unspeakable things.
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On April 05 2012 18:12 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 03:33 ain wrote:On April 01 2012 02:23 Disarray wrote:
DoW2 was a great game, and the change in tactical direction was the best thing they could have done for that series. a 40k RTS shouldn't be about basebuilding and macroing your econ to resupply mass ammounts of troops. It should be about having limited troops and using them in a tactical way. If you want to play Starcraft with 40k models, play DoW1.
Don't tarnish the great things with DoW2 because you were too poor of a player to recognize the great things they did to that game. DoW 1 wasnt macro heavy at all and definitely cant be compared to Starcraft. It had minimal base building and very dynamic eco and combat systems. DoW 2 was more about capping points than it was about fighting and thats why it failed. DoW1 was definitely macro heavy, and how the hell was DoW2 a failure ? It did very well
How is sending the occasional unit/builder to cap/build a SP/LP/gen macro heavy. In comparison to other RTS games DoW was definitely at the lower end of the macro spectrum. There is simply no arguing that.
DoW2 failed in that despite the big franchise and investment it was less successful than DoW1 and generally had much worse acceptance among players.
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If THQ is going down, is it possible they're going to sell their IP's, including Homeworld, to make the most of their failing investment?
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I still to this day have Homeworld 1 and 2 plus expansions installed on my computer. I consider them with a fondness like a favorite book. I replay them about once a year or so just as I reread The Hobbit every year around christmas.
I wasn't aware relic was tied up in all this mess and its sad to see. I really hope the creative minds get into jobs that take advantage of their abilities and don't end up working in some closet
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On April 02 2012 23:47 RIPJAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:53 0mar wrote:
THQ is just the vanguard of the video game bubble bursting.
Most of the major publisher's stocks have either been flat or trending down for the last 5 years. Dumping $50 million into each game and not having them recoup costs is killing the industry. It's looking more and more likely that the indie/small-time game is going to be the major driver, not massive triple A undertakings. everything you said is wrong its the tripple A titles that will stay and the SMALL titles will go do you know anything about the industry? why dont you take a look at all the small studios that have closed down the big guys are the ones sticking around use your head its a valuable asset there are only a few cases where a good game was made and didnt sell well enough to recoup costs please educate yourself more before you make comments that are mostly untrue. the one true thing you said is the stocks of all of these companies have been dropping but that because just 4 years ago we had an economic crash and everyones stocks were dropping and there not all going down you know look at activision and blizzard there still going strong and so is ubisoft and EA although they have both had their fair share of flop titles
Dude, you can't even type intelligently, nevermind make a coherent argument. Activision released 3 of the biggest selling games since the recession began. Their stock is still stuck at the same level regardless. This is on top of WoW, SC2 and other such games. If Activision can't increase it's stock price, most of the industry has zero chance.
The fact is that in order to break even, every game has to break 1.5 million to 2 million sales. The latest MoH game sold ~2.5 million copies and EA canned the entire team. The new Homefront game sold ~2 million copies and THQ canned the entire team. The whole development model today is unsustainable. It takes between 50-75 million dollars to simply make a game. It can cost that much to market the game as well, so you are looking at 100 - 150 million dollar investments that aren't returning much of anything. That's why the industry is resorting to nickel and diming you with day 1 DLC, map packs and skins. And even with that, the majors aren't making much.
To put this in perspective where the industry is at, Zynga, the makers of shitty Facebook games like Farmville, is valued higher than EA. The reason? Bigger userbase and low development costs. This is the model for the future. Why do you think there's such a push to corner the tablet/smartphone market? It's much easier to sell a bunch of copies of a shitty game that costs 50,000. The next console generation is going to destroy the major publishers. MS and Sony still haven't made a profit on their hardware, preferring to sell licensing rites to shore up selling the consoles at a loss. Publishers loathe doing this though because it essentially cuts their market in half. ME was a flagship franchise of the Microsoft and now it's available on both PS3 and 360 because it would have been impossible for EA to recoup development costs on just the 360.
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On April 06 2012 02:32 0mar wrote:
Dude, you can't even type intelligently, nevermind make a coherent argument. Activision released 3 of the biggest selling games since the recession began.
this is what happens when we get junk science analysis .....
dude..
define "since the recession began"?
"In December 2008, the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) declared that the United States had been in recession since December 2007"
i say this is about right....
in June 2008 ATVI offered a TWO FOR ONE STOCK SPLIT ... effectively doubling the value of the stock i held.
i now held twice as many shared in ATVI after this offer.
The actual split occurred on September 5th , 2008 so the ATVI execs were very responsible with this announcement giving every one months of advanced warning.
therefore, with the 2 for one stock split in mind... ATVI has basically gone up 100% since the recession began as well.. tehre are shares you can buy that offer a dividend...
ATVI is just absolutely fucking amazing "since the recession began"
In November 2007 the stock was at ~$9.75
then teh 2 for 1 stock split occurred.
today ATVI is at ...$12.66 making your initial $9.50 investment now worth $25.12
ATVI stock holders who've held on since "the start of the recession" are jumping for fucking joy.
if the thread continues to get derailed with this pseudo stock analysis crap.. we should make another thread out of it.
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On April 02 2012 18:29 ain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:25 Manit0u wrote:
DoW1 was also about capping points and what most players did was battling over them most of the time. What's different in DoW2? The only thing that comes to my mind would be early base rushes, but that's such a small part of it that it's negligible.
Tells me you haven't really played the first game.
Actually, I did play both of them quite extensively for some time. DoW1 seems really shallow and boring to me after DoW2.
I agree that DoW2 was pretty much shit in the beginning, with all the insane bugs and imbalances. Relic managed to patch it up quite nicely though, bringing better balance and getting rid of most bugs (what's left now is a couple of minor graphical glitches for the most part).
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help help I put a lot of money in THQ because I really liked the game DOW
but now its tanking and I am too afraid to sell
now I cant afford games
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EPT
