Just read this on Sam Harris' page, a page I frequent mostly for his views on religion (Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and an atheist [altho he himself would argue that atheism is a meaningless summation of a group, much like a-smurfist, demoninating people by something they don't believe in] who is said to be "one of the four horsemen of atheism" with Richard Dawkins, Daniel C Dennet and the late Christopher Hitchens).
The article basically poses that science has shown wood smoke from recreational fires and fireplaces to be quite bad for you, more so then smoking and more polluting of the environment. Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
It seems to me that many nonbelievers have forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of religious people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how religious people feel when their beliefs are criticized. It’s not a perfect analogy, as you will see, but the rigorous research I’ve conducted at dinner parties suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon “the fireplace delusion.” On a cold night, most people consider a well-tended fire to be one of the more wholesome pleasures that humanity has produced. A fire, burning safely within the confines of a fireplace or a woodstove, is a visible and tangible source of comfort to us. We love everything about it: the warmth, the beauty of its flames, and—unless one is allergic to smoke—the smell that it imparts to the surrounding air. I am sorry to say that if you feel this way about a wood fire, you are not only wrong but dangerously misguided. I mean to seriously convince you of this—so you can consider it in part a public service announcement—but please keep in mind that I am drawing an analogy. I want you to be sensitive to how you feel, and to notice the resistance you begin to muster as you consider what I have to say.
Because wood is among the most natural substances on earth, and its use as a fuel is universal, most people imagine that burning wood must be a perfectly benign thing to do. Breathing winter air scented by wood smoke seems utterly unlike puffing on a cigarette or inhaling the exhaust from a passing truck. But this is an illusion. Here is what we know from a scientific point of view: There is no amount of wood smoke that is good to breathe. It is at least as bad for you as cigarette smoke, and probably much worse. (One study found it to be 30 times more potent a carcinogen.) The smoke from an ordinary wood fire contains hundreds of compounds known to be carcinogenic, mutagenic, teratogenic, and irritating to the respiratory system. Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart. Particles this size also resist gravitational settling, remaining airborne for weeks at a time. Once they have exited your chimney, the toxic gases (e.g. benzene) and particles that make up smoke freely pass back into your home and into the homes of others. (Research shows that nearly 70 percent of chimney smoke reenters nearby buildings.) Children who live in homes with active fireplaces or woodstoves, or in areas where wood burning is common, suffer a higher incidence of asthma, cough, bronchitis, nocturnal awakening, and compromised lung function. Among adults, wood burning is associated with more-frequent emergency room visits and hospital admissions for respiratory illness, along with increased mortality from heart attacks. The inhalation of wood smoke, even at relatively low levels, alters pulmonary immune function, leading to a greater susceptibility to colds, flus, and other respiratory infections. All these effects are borne disproportionately by children and the elderly. The unhappy truth about burning wood has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That nice, cozy fire in your fireplace is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Burning wood is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we invariably have better and cleaner alternatives for heating our homes. If you are burning wood in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the persistence of this habit is a major source of air pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, wood smoke often contributes more harmful particulates to urban air than any other source. In the developing world, the burning of solid fuel in the home is a genuine scourge, second only to poor sanitation as an environmental health risk. In 2000, the World Health Organization estimated that it caused nearly 2 million premature deaths each year—considerably more than were caused by traffic accidents. I suspect that many of you have already begun to marshal counterarguments of a sort that will be familiar to anyone who has debated the validity and usefulness of religion. Here is one: Human beings have warmed themselves around fires for tens of thousands of years, and this practice was instrumental in our survival as a species. Without fire there would be no material culture. Nothing is more natural to us than burning wood to stay warm. True enough. But many other things are just as natural—such as dying at the ripe old age of thirty. Dying in childbirth is eminently natural, as is premature death from scores of diseases that are now preventable. Getting eaten by a lion or a bear is also your birthright—or would be, but for the protective artifice of civilization—and becoming a meal for a larger carnivore would connect you to the deep history of our species as surely as the pleasures of the hearth ever could. For nearly two centuries the divide between what is natural—and all the needless misery that entails—and what is good has been growing. Breathing the fumes issuing from your neighbor’s chimney, or from your own, now falls on the wrong side of that divide. The case against burning wood is every bit as clear as the case against smoking cigarettes. Indeed, it is even clearer, because when you light a fire, you needlessly poison the air that everyone around you for miles must breathe. Even if you reject every intrusion of the “nanny state,” you should agree that the recreational burning of wood is unethical and should be illegal, especially in urban areas. By lighting a fire, you are creating pollution that you cannot dispose. It might be the clearest day of the year, but burn a sufficient quantity of wood and the air in the vicinity of your home will resemble a bad day in Beijing. Your neighbors should not have to pay the cost of this archaic behavior of yours. And there is no way they can transfer this cost to you in a way that would preserve their interests. Therefore, even libertarians should be willing to pass a law prohibiting the recreational burning of wood in favor of cleaner alternatives (like gas). I have discovered that when I make this case, even to highly intelligent and health-conscious men and women, a psychological truth quickly becomes as visible as a pair of clenched fists: They do not want to believe any of it. Most people I meet want to live in a world in which wood smoke is harmless. Indeed, they seem committed to living in such a world, regardless of the facts. To try to convince them that burning wood is harmful—and has always been so—is somehow offensive. The ritual of burning wood is simply too comforting and too familiar to be reconsidered, its consolation so ancient and ubiquitous that it has to be benign. The alternative—burning gas over fake logs—seems a sacrilege. And yet, the reality of our situation is scientifically unambiguous: If you care about your family’s health and that of your neighbors, the sight of a glowing hearth should be about as comforting as the sight of a diesel engine idling in your living room. It is time to break the spell and burn gas—or burn nothing at all. Of course, if you are anything like my friends, you will refuse to believe this. And that should give you some sense of what we are up against whenever we confront religion.
Highly taken aback by this...it seems to be perfectly backed by scientific proof and whatnot, but good luck trying to convince people of this. I will personally cut that habit though.
Unfortunately I'm not super wealthy and burning wood is much cheaper and much hotter ^^ So I won't be stopping any time soon. If I win the lottery tomorrow though, I promise to. I'll never stop having fires outside with drinks + friends though :D
No lie... I work in a shop that sells Fires and Fireplaces. We have mostly gas fires lit during show hours, but we do have a couple of Wood burning Stoves that I usually light and keep burning through the day... 0_o
I tended to avoid the smoke best I could anyway but.. thanks for scaring me lol.
It's very interesting. I could guess it wasn't perfectly clean and healthy, but I really didn't imagine it was that bad. And I used a fireplace to warm my house for 17 years.
Obviously it's unhealthy, but this is one of those things that can't be fixed with regulation, but only education.
With just a hint of chemistry knowledge - high school level is fully sufficient - people can understand the reactions developing when something burns. CO2 as a climate gas and CO as a potential toxin are scary enough; add all the other crap that's possibly on wood that's burned (paint, varnish etc) and you get a cocktail of stuff you certainly don't want in your lungs or immediate vicinity.
You'll never be able to stop cozy fireplaces or camp fires with laws and regulations. People will only laugh and scoff at you. Education can fix it, though.
i think this is going to have little to no effect on my behavior. Life is bad for you and in the end we are all going to die. If I had to work around constant smoke I'd reconsider but occasional live fire can't be too harmful.
Of course, wood smoke, or pretty much any other smoke is going to be bad for you. The warm fuzzy feeling is still justified since a long time ago a fire probably keeps you from freezing or being eaten at night. World's changed since then, a little smoke was the least of our worries then, but now I suppose it is something to think about. I don't see what's so profound about this though.
On February 03 2012 18:33 killa_robot wrote: Smoke is bad for you. Sugar is bad for you.
What is the world coming to!
Soon the earth will be bad for you too so that's what its coming to!
Obviously it is bad for you, but it still has a strong place in most cultures. Like in bonfires and campfires. It won't die out because it is unhealthy, I mean look at general smoking. The anti-smoking campaign has been working to get it out of our cultures since the early 1900's, having anti-smoking ads since the 50's. You don't simply take out cultural traits quickly.
Culture and health aren't neccesarily mutually exclusive.
On February 03 2012 18:33 killa_robot wrote: Smoke is bad for you. Sugar is bad for you.
What is the world coming to!
This. If we avoided everything that was bad for us we might all live for 120 years, but it would be 120 years of solid boredom and misery. Ill have a few guilty pleasures and die at 60 any day thanks.
CO has mostly acute toxic effects, this article is mostly concerned with chronic effects that can be demonstrated easily for those small particles that damage lungs, and carcinogens. The way I see it though, getting phobic over those things only makes your life more miserable. Lighting pyres 1 day of the year isn't going to kill anyone, you get better from that stuff by breathing fresh air. And sometimes, burning stuff is the most convenient and efficient way to generate heat, such as with combustible trash.
The difference between wood smoke and tobacco smoke is that you don't walk up to the wood smoke and actively breathe it in - you have a chimney specifically to reduce the amount of smoke you breathe. I guess camp fires might be dangerous, but unless you camp frequently, the health effects should be minor.
yeah, this guy is a bit of an ass, a very self-righteous ass at that. I understand that burning wood isn't healthy. I choose to do it on occasion anyway. I am sorry, but a bit of smoke will not end the world and my neighbors will be fine (most houses in this tiny village have fire places anyway). What he says is fine until he starts preaching his mighty word of it is only ethical to make it illegal, even though we may be against nanny states we have to force ourselves into your lives and make recreational burning illegal!! Get off your fucking high horse, and live a little. I don't know how many more times one could argue moderation. Find moderation, do nothing to excess, but enjoy life and stop shitting in everyone's cheerios.
Well, obviously inhaling smoke is terrible for your health... but that stuff about 70% re-entering nearby buildings and shit staying afloat was new to me. Guess that means no fireplace at my future house.
On February 03 2012 18:53 LAN-f34r wrote: The difference between wood smoke and tobacco smoke is that you don't walk up to the wood smoke and actively breathe it in - you have a chimney specifically to reduce the amount of smoke you breathe. I guess camp fires might be dangerous, but unless you camp frequently, the health effects should be minor.
Great demonstration of ignoring (explaining away) the cognitive dissonance science brings.
I feel sorry for Sam Harris. The burden of being perpetually correct in a world of backwards thinking and irrationality shouldn't fall on one man's shoulders alone, but apparently it has. At least he conducts himself under such a weight with grace and humility.
On February 03 2012 18:43 Blacktion wrote: This. If we avoided everything that was bad for us we might all live for 120 years, but it would be 120 years of solid boredom and misery. Ill have a few guilty pleasures and die at 60 any day thanks.
Somehow, I imagine the human race would find a way to entertain itself sufficiently. 120 years of solid boredom... that's just a sign of terrible creativity, not that avoiding toxic foods and gas is a the wrong call. Without all that sugar, though, how will we make it? *Forlorn voice* Somehow, life will find a way.
Burning wood is very eco friendly compared to other forms of heating. It is carbon neutral since the same amount of CO2 is released from a tree that is burned as is from a tree which falls in the forest and simply rots away. As has been rightly pointed out about this article deal primarily with the small particles that are released from burning wood. Apparently, burning wood in a normal open fire / stove has the same effect on your health as driving a car (as in the effect of the emissions on you / others is the same).
I did not notice the country from which the OP was from however, in the UK we have the Clean Air Act this prevents the burning of wood in "Smokeless Zones" unless the stove has been granted DEFRA exemption. This means the stoves have been tested and they emit particles which are under a certain size / quantity. TBH with you it also depends on the wood you are burning, type, moisture content, how long it has been seasoned, etc etc. Obv treated wood / woods that contain metals etc etc all have vaious other effects on your health.
As has been stated above nobody should be shocked by the fact that inhaling smoke is bad for you. That is why many countries have these "smokeless zones" which tend to be urban areas, where there are dense populations, and tall buildings which affect the ability of the smoke / particles to disperse effectively. In many cases this is the lesser evil - cheaper, amazing heat, carbon neutral (especially if using locally sourced wood). IMO there are so many worse things for our health which we should worry about.
I'm not in uni anymore but can someone link me the original article from the journal in pubmed? I don't have access to it sadly :/ if possible could someone send it to me in pdf form?
I'm a bit skeptical till I read the research though a quick search on google scholar shows me that theres lots of research on the topic so I'd like to read about it. I'm currently in norway and fireplaces are the main heaters for the country and its damn cold here.
Hum, walking in the street is dangerous too, you can slide on a banana's skin and break an arm.
If we stop doing things because it might be dangerous, our lives will become so interesting that the only threat we'll have to face...is our own suicide...
Drink wine, eat meat and potatoes, have sex, all this in front of a fire in a fireplace. It's not gonna kill you and you'll spend a good moment.
Nice fear-inducing American article. I don't think many people thought any kind of smoke was actually healthy. Using it occasionally may not be a problem at all, but using it all your life long on a daily basis may be. Just like smoking, actually. The body does pretty well at getting rid of small amounts of toxins.
Why does the article think people didn't know smoke was bad for them and why does it think no one will believe them and then equate it with religious people not believing science?
???
This sounds like some sort of sensationalistic crap.
I don't see why people want to have open fireplaces. Often, they drain the house of more heat than they provide due to the pressure difference created by the open chimney.
I'm still more critical towards traffic pollution, as I've seen the measurements from the main road that passes right by my house, and there was quite a substantial amount of carcinogens (mainly PAHs).
lets uninvent fire and go back to being apes. On the more serious side I feel people get afraid of stuff scientist say way to much. for example scientists said a couple of years back that potato chips increase the risk of cancer. while this might be true, so does everything else, including breathing,walking in the sunlight and eating vegetables. atleast in my oppinion you should just live happily as long as you live instead of avoiding everything that might get you killed cause you won't be doin anything if you avoid all that stuff.
This not something new. We have found bodies of people that have lungs that look similiar to people that smoke from around a 1000 years ago. Wood fire won't kill you but can increase the risk of lung cancer and CHD.
The most wood I burn is in rare cases during winter, in a closed fireplace. I am ASSUMING it is still bad, but because its closed and has a ventilation system of itself most of the smoke goes away.
Anyways, I don't really care too much. If I can't burn wood anymore so be it. if I dont eat young cows and chickens of whom I don't know where it comes from, due to a lot of suffering the animals have to go through, I can probably stop burning wood too lol.
On February 03 2012 19:56 Eppa! wrote: This not something new. We have found bodies of people that have lungs that look similiar to people that smoke from around a 1000 years ago. Wood fire won't kill you but can increase the risk of lung cancer and CHD.
Lungs? In bodies that are a thousand years old ? I'm going to call this complete bullshit or facts you pulled from thin air unless you can provide a solid source.
if someone want's to smoke a cigarette, you're being a buffoon if you attempt to stop them - in an attempt to 'break the habit'. they're more than aware of the risks, but they enjoy a smoke and probably aren't worried about living to 78 years old instead of into their 80's. if you're chubby, the smoker has a right to turn around and pinch your hamburger and claim that he's worried for your health.
on the subject of wood fires... gas central heating is faaaaaaaaaar moooooooore expensive than burning a coal fire. especially in a property with poor insulation or without double-glazing. my house gets to about 8-10 degrees celcius in winter, which is unbearably cold... the heating would have to be on 24/7 to raise that by a couple of degrees.
i have a fireplace in the other room that's currently burning with wood on it... the smoke goes up the chimney and away - i certainly can't smell or see any smoke outside - it seems to go right up into the air.
why is there wood on the fire? because last summer we had about 7-8 trees in the garden cut down because they were overgrown and interfering with telephone lines on the street... there is a pile of wood just lying there.
I understand the point he is trying to make. However, it does not connect. I am perfectly willing to accept that wood fires are bad for us. As are many other things we do (such as smoking, eating chocolate cake and skiing). However, the simple pleasure we derive from it is not in any way diminished by this fact. I am glad that information is out there and now I know that when sitting around a wood fire I am taking a health risk. However, knowing about this risk won't stop me from doing it.
Now my point: this is an amount of cognitive dissonance I am willing to accept. I know somethings are bad for me (or risky, or what have you), but I also have fun doing them. I therefore take the risk (I might even unconsciously make that risk disappear in my mind, because our minds abhor cognitive dissonance). Religious views and scientific findings also generate an amount of cognitive dissonance, but just as you won't convince me to stop enjoying a wood fire, your argument won't convince religious people to forsake their religion.
On February 03 2012 19:56 Eppa! wrote: This not something new. We have found bodies of people that have lungs that look similiar to people that smoke from around a 1000 years ago. Wood fire won't kill you but can increase the risk of lung cancer and CHD.
Lungs? In bodies that are a thousand years old ? I'm going to call this complete bullshit or facts you pulled from thin air unless you can provide a solid source.
Peat bog mummies have lungs. So do bodies that got frozen solid in glaciers or siberia. Call bullshit all you like, but I'll believe him.
On February 03 2012 18:33 killa_robot wrote: Smoke is bad for you. Sugar is bad for you.
What is the world coming to!
This. If we avoided everything that was bad for us we might all live for 120 years, but it would be 120 years of solid boredom and misery. Ill have a few guilty pleasures and die at 60 any day thanks.
I think the point Sam Harris is trying to make has nothing to do with how recreational fires can cause cancer or health issues. He's trying to highlight the irrational resistance that he faces when he debates creationists and the religious. Although I think the metaphor could be a bit lost, because you can rationalise the wood-burning argument a bit by saying things like, "me and my $16 heat bill looked and laughed."
I get that, but his arguement is completely invalid. My anger is nothing to do with being told not to have fires, its at the sensationalist "XXXX is bad for you!, XXXX is the new smoking!" and people supposing they know whats best for me. I know these things are bad for me, i do them anyway because i want to enjoy life. Thats my business, now fuck off.
/rant
EDIT. That fuck off is not aimed at the poster i was quoting
On February 03 2012 18:33 killa_robot wrote: Smoke is bad for you. Sugar is bad for you.
What is the world coming to!
This. If we avoided everything that was bad for us we might all live for 120 years, but it would be 120 years of solid boredom and misery. Ill have a few guilty pleasures and die at 60 any day thanks.
The way you spend your life is up to you. If you think that 120 years would be boring you should know that there is a big world out there, Bigger than you imagine because there is so much to see, to do, to learn, to experience than 120 would be little.
I prefer to see things like this: if I can leave 60 years with a happy life without any disease or health problem that keeps me from living at full, then I will live like that. It beats living 60 years and having those last 10 with some problem in my lungs or heart that makes me have to stay at home doing nothing. Now, that's boredom and misery.
fuck i probably have cancer then. The retards (read: bosses) in our office have fires and it stinks of smoke the all fucking winter. Time to find a new job?
It's very interesting and educational, but in this world it doesn't matter. If we would go through list of every product, every substance, every activity, we would come to a conclusion that through all our life we were commiting prolonged suicide.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
I am quite baffled at all the "fear-mongering" accusations and generally hostile responses towards this article. I mean, neither the article nor the study behind it, is condemning people who burn wood. The study is simply stating, that it is proven that smoke from the combustion of wood is very dangerous to the health of you and people in the vicinity. Do what you want with that information, but the facts remain the same.
(Research shows that nearly 70 percent of chimney smoke reenters nearby buildings.)
I stopped reading there ^^
But guess what guys, we should stop driving our cars around, because burning gasoline is poisonous! And what if you heat your house with oil or gas? Pointless article.
I am quite baffled at all the "fear-mongering" accusations and generally hostile responses towards this article. I mean, neither the article nor the study behind it, is condemning people who burn wood. The study is simply stating, that it is proven that smoke from the combustion of wood is very dangerous to the health of you and people in the vicinity. Do what you want with that information, but the facts remain the same.
See, thats exactly the problem.
It's not VERY dangerous. It's not even DANGEROUS. It's unhealthy. Thats it. You shouldn't inhale it and avoid directly inhaling it (which every normal being does anyway)... But you won't fall over and die because it's so VERY DANGEROUS if you inhale it.
Wrestling a Bear is VERY DANGEROUS. Sitting around a Fireplace isn't.
OHH REALLY?smoke bad for ur health? what a discovery... thats why we have chimneys n that smoke goes straight up... only way any1 can actually feel it if theres some nasty wind... i allready see some cool followup in couple years with huge promotion of stop using wood as a source of heat couse its bad for environment and what not when the true agenda is simply to hook more ppl into the system and give coorporate energy suppliers more income and power. there been many different scientists gettin shut down who were close or did come up with free/way more efficient energy solutions... but to hell with progress of mankind for the sake of making the rich richer . sad world
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
PLEASE NOTE: I may have interpreted this in the completely wrong way.
I think the majority of people that read this thread have completely overlooked the foremost underpinning ideologies in the opening post - The beliefs and counteracting beliefs of the various religious cultures that operate around the world - which have been included in the text through the use of an analogy.
If you read though the post thoroughly, you may notice that it is an analogy for the treatment of the members of different religions, namely Atheism (if you could call it a religion). By using the analogy of a fire burning, and describing the scientific effects it would have on your body, the author has effectively shown an alternate viewpoint towards heating. This has ultimately questioned the beliefs of the general public, the majority of which believe that fireplaces are beneficial to you, heating your body and not having dangerous side effects.
Transfer this view to religion and Atheism, and the author is actually attempted to question the different stances towards religion and atheism and how people feel when their religious beliefs are challenged.
Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the way that I interpreted the text rather than as a scientific paper, particularly due to the fact that the author is an Atheist that often writes about his views towards religion.
(Research shows that nearly 70 percent of chimney smoke reenters nearby buildings.)
I stopped reading there ^^
But guess what guys, we should stop driving our cars around, because burning gasoline is poisonous! And what if you heat your house with oil or gas? Pointless article.
But don't you see, that you are simply condemning knowledge? Of course we shouldn't stop burning gasoline, because right now the benefits are larger than the costs. But if you have the option of choosing between several sources of energy, with this knowledge, you can save maybe years of you and your childrens life. The article is simply informing you of the reality, so that you may better adapt to fit your way of life.
On February 03 2012 19:40 oGoZenob wrote: How the hell did his atheism has anything to do with this ?
I'm a bit surprised so many people seems to think this article is actually about burning wood and the dangers of its smoke...
It is completely irrelevant if his scientific claims are correct or not. He is just trying to give an example about the power of cultural influences in our lives. His point as I understand it is that most of us prefer a comforting lie rather than the "harsh truth". In his case I'm assuming he is referring to the question of whether or not God exists.
I find it a bit ironic that almost everyone in this thread is proving his point by getting into an argument about whether or not you should ban the burning of wood. You're all walking right into his trap.
(Research shows that nearly 70 percent of chimney smoke reenters nearby buildings.)
I stopped reading there ^^
That's exactly what he argues religious people would do if someone claimed something about their faith that didn't sound right in the ears of the religious person.
This man is correct, to say the least. I have seen so many patients with pulmonary fibrosis or chronic interstitial lung disease resulting from having a fireplace that does not properly vent the smoke. You would also be surprised at the amount of farmers with chronic lung conditions due to being around hay and animal feces their whole lives.
All you need is a proper fireplace that will vent the smoke.
I am quite baffled at all the "fear-mongering" accusations and generally hostile responses towards this article. I mean, neither the article nor the study behind it, is condemning people who burn wood. The study is simply stating, that it is proven that smoke from the combustion of wood is very dangerous to the health of you and people in the vicinity. Do what you want with that information, but the facts remain the same.
See, thats exactly the problem.
It's not VERY dangerous. It's not even DANGEROUS. It's unhealthy. Thats it. You shouldn't inhale it and avoid directly inhaling it (which every normal being does anyway)... But you won't fall over and die because it's so VERY DANGEROUS if you inhale it.
Wrestling a Bear is VERY DANGEROUS. Sitting around a Fireplace isn't.
You are right, I had a bad choice of words. My point is, that people should not condemn knowledge of the reality, but just understand it and then act upon that new wisdom, however they feel fit.
On February 03 2012 20:45 shizna wrote: lmao how sad for him that his analogy is 10 times more interesting and concerning than his original point... fail
I disagree, I think his message is far more interesting, and important, than the analogy itself. You live in the UK, where fanatics of religion are somewhat rare. Sam Harris lives in the USA, where religion rules politics and there's a constant state of conflict on all sides. It's pretty frustrating when someone just goes "lol article fail." when it's done very well :/.
Since it seems like most people don't even get that it's an analogy in the first place, I'd say it's a bit of a fail though. Regardless of how good the analogy in itself might be.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
Yes it truely is facinating the reactions people hav to certain scientific data. Especially, when it is something which is common sense really and something which mankind has been doing for thousands of years.
Inhaling everything but the natural air composition is bad for you, that's common knowledge isn't it? I mean, cigarette smoke isn't healthy for you either? And tobacco are dried plants anyway so it's not that much difference with burning wood..
On February 03 2012 18:40 Elzar wrote: Now wait a second! Are you telling me inhaling smoke from burned materials isn't healthy?
My god!
You know, you amongst others did not grasp the nature of this post
Its not about telling you that inhaling smoke is bad (because DUH) but to educate you in the fact that you RESIST what has been told to you (backed up by scientific facts)
I've read a few more posts here and its funny to read that the creator of this analogy is right. There is a lot of resistance and counter arguments that are emotional, not rational.
That is also the conclusion of the post when pointing at religious people/debate. Even if you come up with 1000000 arguments to not do it, some people can never be convinced to change there opinions just because they feel like it.
Wow, the responses in the thread really do show what sam harris was getting at. And I'm sorry, but a lot of the sarcasm in many posts is essentially the same kind of dismissive, resistant attitude.
I'm a little confused at the comparison to smoking simply because smoking is addictive.
I dunno, I was mentally prepared for the article and I've been trying to become more of a Bayesian rationalist recently, so my resistance may have taken a different form. I saw it more as problem solving. Is there some way we can mimic wood burning without the health effects? Similarly, how often do people burn wood? Smoking is addictive, so obviously people smoke a lot, but wood burning seems a lot less common.
The regulation actually made me think more though. I don't quite know how we'd do regulation. We already have fire regulation, so I'm going to guess that its better to self regulate, then use the government.
I must be totally rational and awesome because it made perfect sense to me, no resistance here. I'm still gonna do it though. Gonna smoke more cigarettes too.
On February 03 2012 21:15 Uldridge wrote: Inhaling everything but the natural air composition is bad for you, that's common knowledge isn't it? I mean, cigarette smoke isn't healthy for you either? And tobacco are dried plants anyway so it's not that much difference with burning wood..
Actually oxygen and the way it reacts with your cells when burning fuel is what makes you old. It also causes cancer on occasion.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
...
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
No. Smokers often find cigarettes relaxing. We still do not consider cigarettes to be healthy by way of reducing stress.
The article details the health effects for the community of smoke from wood fires, including the 2 million premature deaths per annum estimate. That is very likely far higher than the number of stress-related premature deaths that would be prevented by people sitting down by a nice fire.
[sidenote: Many countries do have initiatives aimed at reducing stress in the populace, including maximum working hours, mandatory provision of breaks for staff, and various forms of income support.]
I think the author hoped that people would not only instinctively resist the notion that wood fires are dangerous, but also critically examine their resistance and in doing so develop a greater understanding of those who follow other dogmas. It seems that many people have stopped at resistance.
I like a nice fire sometimes and knew that inhaling smoke was always bad for you, but I did not realise the extent to which a home fireplace affects neighbours. In the future, I shall stick to using electric and gas heating unless my fireplace has a proper filter in the chimney to deal with the smoke. It would not be fair for the children of others to suffer healthwise for my pleasure.
I like a nice fire sometimes and knew that inhaling smoke was always bad for you, but I did not realise the extent to which a home fireplace affects neighbours. In the future, I shall stick to using electric and gas heating unless my fireplace has a proper filter in the chimney to deal with the smoke. It would not be fair for the children of others to suffer healthwise for my pleasure.
Then you are overreacting a bit. Chimney are mostly on top of roofs and such, and therefore release the smoke fairly high up. Smoke is warm and would not travel downwards, so I think the adverse effects on neighbours would be rather minimal at best.
What if I said the same behavior (albeit not for the same reasons) can often be found among atheists when considering evidence contradicting the atheist world view?
I think most of us are not as rational as we'd like to believe. For example, I've heard a lot of people using a phrase such as "and if God DOES exist I wouldn't want to believe in him anyway" because their image of God is one that he must be a douche bag if he really exists in the way he has been described to them.
Harris is considering the cultural influences that relates to our desire to find comfort in life. I on the other hand find that a lot of people channel for example feelings such as their anger about something in their lives as a way of strengthening what they believe to be true. So if an argument should arise that might indicate that something in their worldview (atheist in this example) is debatable then they instinctively defend themselves, not with facts, but rather with feelings such as "well, if he exists, I don't like him anyway".
I think what Harris seems to be analyzing in the light of "how do believers react to facts?" is really just a part of how the mindset of all humans relate to the conflict of existing values with new ones and the tiresome process of changing them (and in the extension also changing the way of life).
This is a surprise? I thought it was pretty clear that inhaling the smoke coming out from burning wood is pretty bad for you, especially the black smoke.
Yes smoke is bad for you. Beginning 20th century and before poor farmers lived in a ''los hoes''. This is in Twenthe the east of the Netherlands. All the farm animals and the farmers family lived in ones shared space. The bodyheat of the animals helped keeping the place warm and you didn't need to go outside for a lot of the work. And the added benifit of not having your cows freeze to death.
The family gathered around an open fireplace working crafts in the winter. There was no chimney as we know it now. Only an outlet at the top. Many died of smokelung anyway so no one though of smoking a pipe as dangerous. Later last century housing improved. The last frarmer who lived that way died in the 1950ties. Supposedly he had a stroke and fell into his fireplace.
On February 03 2012 18:55 HotShizz wrote: yeah, this guy is a bit of an ass, a very self-righteous ass at that. I understand that burning wood isn't healthy. I choose to do it on occasion anyway. I am sorry, but a bit of smoke will not end the world and my neighbors will be fine (most houses in this tiny village have fire places anyway). What he says is fine until he starts preaching his mighty word of it is only ethical to make it illegal, even though we may be against nanny states we have to force ourselves into your lives and make recreational burning illegal!! Get off your fucking high horse, and live a little. I don't know how many more times one could argue moderation. Find moderation, do nothing to excess, but enjoy life and stop shitting in everyone's cheerios.
This is the kind of reaction I find interesting =) Because I also have a strong innate resistance against the state nanny'ing etc, we're accepting that it's doing so for smoking cigarettes, there are bonusses/penalties for cleaner cars or having an un-ecofriendly one, but the idea of having a same sort of law or regulation for something that is apparantly more air-polluting and "dangerous" causes you to (seemingly) become quite aggressive against him ^^
It's the thing that I found interesting in the first place, altho I was mildly surprised at how unhealthy smoke from wood-fires is (I didnt know it to be that bad, altho I had ofcourse reasoned that sitting next to something burning might not be the best thing ever) I was mostly surprised at, which he also describes, the immediate feeling of resistance that built up in me when I read the lines wood-smoke bad for you. For some reason it's something "sacred" to have a nice fire going, and the idea that this might not be good just went against me for some reason. This is the interesting part, the whole OH MY GOD some things we do arent the best for us - bit wasnt.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
On February 03 2012 20:45 shizna wrote: lmao how sad for him that his analogy is 10 times more interesting and concerning than his original point... fail
I disagree, I think his message is far more interesting, and important, than the analogy itself. You live in the UK, where fanatics of religion are somewhat rare. Sam Harris lives in the USA, where religion rules politics and there's a constant state of conflict on all sides. It's pretty frustrating when someone just goes "lol article fail." when it's done very well :/.
Since it seems like most people don't even get that it's an analogy in the first place, I'd say it's a bit of a fail though. Regardless of how good the analogy in itself might be.
He outright said it was an analogy. How do you fuck up comprehension that bad?
Well written article, thanks for sharing it "How do believers react to facts?" is very interesting - for instance I obstinately claimed Sc2 would be dull until trying it ^^. People being made more conscious of this tendency is a valiant effort, I certainly try to approach everyday things with a more evidence based mindset a lot more than 2 years ago.
On February 03 2012 20:45 shizna wrote: lmao how sad for him that his analogy is 10 times more interesting and concerning than his original point... fail
I disagree, I think his message is far more interesting, and important, than the analogy itself. You live in the UK, where fanatics of religion are somewhat rare. Sam Harris lives in the USA, where religion rules politics and there's a constant state of conflict on all sides. It's pretty frustrating when someone just goes "lol article fail." when it's done very well :/.
Since it seems like most people don't even get that it's an analogy in the first place, I'd say it's a bit of a fail though. Regardless of how good the analogy in itself might be.
He outright said it was an analogy. How do you fuck up comprehension that bad?
To be fair, the thread title is somewhat misleading. I'm guessing a lot of people don't read the actual article and just respond after just reading a bit of the OP. It's a bit sad, but we're all lazy... that's not exactly news I think. ^^
On February 03 2012 18:40 Elzar wrote: Now wait a second! Are you telling me inhaling smoke from burned materials isn't healthy?
My god!
Oh my god I can't even breath. To the OP and to posts like this, isn't is common sense enough that smoke is bad for you, no matter where it comes from. As a matter of fact, if I recall my ages ago lesson in chemistry, any biproduct of combustion is bad for health.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
No, I believe his point to be that while atheists/rationalists/sceptics are often baffled by the resistance religious people put up to simple scientific facts, there is a same sort of innate resistance in (as it appears almost) all of us on other (perhaps less meaningfull) issues. He (I think) does this to create some understanding for the stance of others in debates, thus aiming to make the debates better and easyer, which I'd say is a noble cause. And if nothing else, for me at least it was interesting to notice the resistance I immediatly had when reading the article. The statement: "Science is cold and depressing" is one that flows out of the bad PR science has gotten when the new-age scene had to make a niche for themselves and couldnt do it based on any facts, evidence or science. Here's a brilliant translation of my thoughts on the matter:
Edit: To the poster above me: please read my post carefully. I wasn't expressing my mind-blowing amazement at the fact wood-smoke's bad, but at the reaction I had to it, which is also what the main article's point is.
On February 03 2012 20:41 Paroxysm wrote: PLEASE NOTE: I may have interpreted this in the completely wrong way.
I think the majority of people that read this thread have completely overlooked the foremost underpinning ideologies in the opening post - The beliefs and counteracting beliefs of the various religious cultures that operate around the world - which have been included in the text through the use of an analogy.
If you read though the post thoroughly, you may notice that it is an analogy for the treatment of the members of different religions, namely Atheism (if you could call it a religion). By using the analogy of a fire burning, and describing the scientific effects it would have on your body, the author has effectively shown an alternate viewpoint towards heating. This has ultimately questioned the beliefs of the general public, the majority of which believe that fireplaces are beneficial to you, heating your body and not having dangerous side effects.
Transfer this view to religion and Atheism, and the author is actually attempted to question the different stances towards religion and atheism and how people feel when their religious beliefs are challenged.
Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the way that I interpreted the text rather than as a scientific paper, particularly due to the fact that the author is an Atheist that often writes about his views towards religion.
This pretty much hit's the nail on the head btw =)
I like a nice fire sometimes and knew that inhaling smoke was always bad for you, but I did not realise the extent to which a home fireplace affects neighbours. In the future, I shall stick to using electric and gas heating unless my fireplace has a proper filter in the chimney to deal with the smoke. It would not be fair for the children of others to suffer healthwise for my pleasure.
Then you are overreacting a bit. Chimney are mostly on top of roofs and such, and therefore release the smoke fairly high up. Smoke is warm and would not travel downwards, so I think the adverse effects on neighbours would be rather minimal at best.
Many components of smoke are heavier than air. They will tend to sink even when they are still slightly warmer than the air they sink through. They also cool rapidly. We put filters on industrial chimneys because even though the smoke is hot, and the chimneys are tall, the smoke still travels downwards. Doing the same to a domestic chimney is not a great leap.
From the article:
Research shows that nearly 70 percent of chimney smoke reenters nearby buildings.
Nothing I enjoy more than a campfire, a cigar, and an alcaholic drink. Who cares if it's unhealthy? We all start to die the day we're born, let's have fun.
Here is my problem: we generally accept the fact that burning things is bad for you. Harris has made claims that people irrationally dismiss scientific arguements. Show me those actual arguements. I developed a resistance to his ideas, not because of the "OMG burning bad!!" I was not convinced that his evidence was at all sound in justifying the claim that woodsmoke was comparable to a cigarette or that any well ventilated environment would have essentially no bearing on the risks involved. If you took natures finest timber and burned it in a controlled, ventilated setting, it is my belief that you would not generate a significantly harmful amount of toxic/harmful by-products. We require better education on the maatter but the principle itself is that burning wood for heat is an acceptalbe practice. I realize it is an analogy but it is a poor one because it is possible to investigate the claims he makes on a fully scientific level, unlike the vast majority of religious claims.
On February 03 2012 20:41 Paroxysm wrote: PLEASE NOTE: I may have interpreted this in the completely wrong way.
I think the majority of people that read this thread have completely overlooked the foremost underpinning ideologies in the opening post - The beliefs and counteracting beliefs of the various religious cultures that operate around the world - which have been included in the text through the use of an analogy.
If you read though the post thoroughly, you may notice that it is an analogy for the treatment of the members of different religions, namely Atheism (if you could call it a religion). By using the analogy of a fire burning, and describing the scientific effects it would have on your body, the author has effectively shown an alternate viewpoint towards heating. This has ultimately questioned the beliefs of the general public, the majority of which believe that fireplaces are beneficial to you, heating your body and not having dangerous side effects.
Transfer this view to religion and Atheism, and the author is actually attempted to question the different stances towards religion and atheism and how people feel when their religious beliefs are challenged.
Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the way that I interpreted the text rather than as a scientific paper, particularly due to the fact that the author is an Atheist that often writes about his views towards religion.
This pretty much hit's the nail on the head btw =)
And he did what he intended to do as you can now read across 5 pages of TL posts
On February 03 2012 20:03 Sated wrote: There's no reason to burn wood in a fire now that we have central heating, gas fires and numerous other ways to heat our homes that are both more efficient and better for the environment. This is another good argument against using wood fires, but it shouldn't really be something that needs debating.
Burning wood is cheaper and better for the environment... It's certainly more efficient than electric heating too (not sure about gas).
OH LOOK! Another thing that we have been doing countless years that is now suddenly bad for us. Quick guys get more starcraft in before there is a ban on using the mouse due to 1% of users getting diarrhoea >
Great story! Although I think everyone already knows that wood fires are actually bad for you, that's why you need to have a fireplace that doesn't allow the smoke to come into your house and you shouldn't make fire when the smoke doesn't travel up and away (you need high air pressure and a wind). I'll keep on enjoying occasional fires, but that's because our house is well placed in the middle of nowhere, and the fireplace is all behind steel and glass. I also wouldn't mind having a god safely tucked away behind scientific bars
Well obvious-fucking-ly if you shove your head in a chimney it's about a thousand times as bad as smoking cigarettes. At least cigarettes are made to be smoked.
This is ridiculous. I grew up in a house heated by firewood and I never got any breathing disease.
Pizza is a vegetable Sugar is Toxic Firewood is the seed of the apocalypse.
Shit...I was working up the healthy habit of making a 30 min jog every other day, but I was thinking about moving my circuit to include an outer neighborhood, in order to breathe less automobile smoke. I was wondering if the fireplace smoke scent I frequently felt in the air had any adverse effects, but I was convinced it was was way better than running alongside a busy street: turns out I was completely wrong.
Now even more reasons not to light our fireplace, on top of even being cheaper to use an oil-radiator.
Funny article. Agree until the 'moral certainty'. Fundamentally, science does not provide moral truths, only ambiguously provides a fundament for certain points of view. He falls into his own trap.
Lulz, of course smoke is bad to breathe. The good news is that modern wood burning stoves and inserts do not emit gasses into the living area, and emit very little unburned hydrocarbons into the atmosphere due to higher combustion zone temperatures.
Do young people in America of average intelligence really believe in christianity? I am asking because this is so unimagineable for me in germany. I can honestly say that I know only of two people that I met in my whole life that truely beliefe in it. Both are girls and one of them is retarded. Maybe some more would like to believe in it because they like the idea but can't because their intelligence prevents them to. Some other practice it out of tradition. Also I don't know a single guy that cares for religion.
On February 03 2012 23:11 Krowser wrote: Well obvious-fucking-ly if you shove your head in a chimney it's about a thousand times as bad as smoking cigarettes. At least cigarettes are made to be smoked.
This is ridiculous. I grew up in a house heated by firewood and I never got any breathing disease.
Pizza is a vegetable Sugar is Toxic Firewood is the seed of the apocalypse.
No. Request denied.
Did you even read any of this thread? The article? Anything? If you did, I'm terribly sorry but you missed the entire point of it. It's a metaphor used to show how we are inherently resistant to facts that contradict our own beliefs, to such an extent that we actively deny and ignore the facts to continue believing what we want to believe.
edit: probably too harsh.
I read the thread and I agree with the point about resisting religious arguments but considering the recent string of baffling political events in the US, I still stand by my post. Firewood smoke is no worse that everything else we're already breathing.
Well first off he is a neruoscientist ... they ar a group that operates on a whole class of assumptions that philisophically mean hes inferring all kinds of bullshit from vague correlations. It is one thing to realise which areas of the brain do work during an operation it is quite another to then assume you can infer anything about 'how' things work. Evidence of what i am talking about is that a *lot* of their work has been shown to be false as they didnt ascertain their base levels properly adn most experiements have been based on false assumptions.
He is also an atheist which tells me he looked at the arguments for god, decided that you couldnt answer the question (or misunderstood the arguments) and then decided to give a positive answer anyway.
When you take those 2 things in conjunction you shuold just stop reading.
As for how wood smoke makes me feel? I smoke, but i dont smoke sticks because the smoke is really harsh. So does it suprise me? Not at all. But then again i havent tried smoking a particular blend of wood smoke from a blend of dried woods wrapped in a specific kind of paper that has been refined into something that is enjoyuable to smoke.
So once again its a neurologist operating from a set of really bad assumptions to make a point that is not in any way objective or meaningful.
You grew up in a house with firewood - that presumably had a chimney. Also most people when i was a kid had the same ... the point is that you therefor don't have a baseline to measure against - because *everyone* is under the same considerations. That would be like only studying people with neurological conditions or assuming that you can somehow map neurons firing to a thought process in something that is doing a million things at once and somehow build a causal picture of how it works (when the process of gathering statistical data specifically precludes anything other than being able to say that this is likely to be causal - but we dont know why - to a 95% chance)
Lol... seriously? Obviously gases from burnt wood is going to be harmful Nothing new.. but saying the wood smoke is worse than cigarettes is just stupid Cigarettes are directly inhaled not many people stand to the direction of the smoke in a fireplace to sniff up all the smoke.... only the retards.. only. I hate how health hazards are being so exaggerated by scientific notes, simply cause of things like this.. Especially those cancer related problems... *hint* "Mobile phones give you cancer" Another example of technically true.. but probability.. very low
This article isn't about burning wood, and even if it was, do people seriously think that lighting fires and inhaling the smoke that rises from it is a good idea? And here I thought burning eyes and throat were an indication of the health of fire-smoke /sarcasm.
On February 03 2012 23:26 bonifaceviii wrote: This thread should follow the naming convention of the other one.
Smoke is TOXIN - scientists
Scientists seems to have gone all out captain obvious on us lately ^_^ Everyone knows that when there's a house fire, the smoke kills you - not the fire.
The point of this is that we are so against cigarette smoke but people dont realise that there already a lot of nasty stuff atround and cigarette smoke has really got an overly bad press.
So we eradicate one source of small scale pollution but totally ignore the millions of others around us all the time.
Running and smoking doesnt mix ... so why do people run beside roads with traffic? You may as well sit at home go on a running machine then have a fag after. Yet those runners will feel like they are being better than me.
Klesky: No, probably not too harsh ;p if people cant read calling them names in text really isn't that harsh.
On February 03 2012 22:57 SomniGiggles wrote: OH LOOK! Another thing that we have been doing countless years that is now suddenly bad for us. Quick guys get more starcraft in before there is a ban on using the mouse due to 1% of users getting diarrhoea >
Just a week ago i was wondering, there hasnt been any public fearmongering like the acrylamide "scandal" lately. Here it goes i guess. Its a bit too late to distract from sopa and pipa now though, so it must be something else.
Not really surprised that inhaling the smoke is bad for you (duh), but I am surprised that it can be up to 30 times more carcinogenic than cigarette smoke.
On February 03 2012 18:48 bigwig123 wrote: me and my 16 dollar heating bill last winter laughed
Eh, 16 dollars? You must cut your own wood, because heating with wood is definitely not that cheap. It also takes an insane amount of time to cut the wood, make tinder, start the fire, clean the stove, haul the wood - so even free wood isn't quite 'free'
Fire stove are actually an issue in some towns here. Depending on the temperature in winter, sometimes a smog of wood smoke forms over the town, and while I appreciate a good fire, I won't deny that smoke is toxic.
I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful.
All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it.
On February 03 2012 23:56 vasculaR wrote: i think a few people missed the point... lol
yeah, about ninety percent of them.. this thread is so depressing
Well to be fair, people have performed reading experiments on TL before with similarly pathetic results. :p
I do wonder about the wood burning aspect. From what I've looked at you see this correlation but there are so many variables that its hard to pin down which are combustion conditions that make the combustion product worse.
On February 03 2012 23:56 vasculaR wrote: i think a few people missed the point... lol
yeah, about ninety percent of them.. this thread is so depressing
I'm so progressive that I don't even burn wood for recreational purposes. Even if I did, it's time to put some heavy taxation on burning wood obviously.
Did you even read any of this thread? The article? Anything? If you did, I'm terribly sorry but you missed the entire point of it. It's a metaphor used to show how we are inherently resistant to facts that contradict our own beliefs, to such an extent that we actively deny and ignore the facts to continue believing what we want to believe.
I know, people like Sam Harris will continue to believe whatever they wish to believe regardless of how the facts contradict their opinion. It's a big failing among the academics who are the quickest to point it out when it exists in others.
Did you even read any of this thread? The article? Anything? If you did, I'm terribly sorry but you missed the entire point of it. It's a metaphor used to show how we are inherently resistant to facts that contradict our own beliefs, to such an extent that we actively deny and ignore the facts to continue believing what we want to believe.
I know, people like Sam Harris will continue to believe whatever they wish to believe regardless of how the facts contradict their opinion. It's a big failing among the academics who are the quickest to point it out when it exists in others.
What are you talking about? You're saying Sam Harris will keep disregarding the facts after reading an article about how Sam Harris believes it's wrong for people to disregard facts?
Did you even read any of this thread? The article? Anything? If you did, I'm terribly sorry but you missed the entire point of it. It's a metaphor used to show how we are inherently resistant to facts that contradict our own beliefs, to such an extent that we actively deny and ignore the facts to continue believing what we want to believe.
I know, people like Sam Harris will continue to believe whatever they wish to believe regardless of how the facts contradict their opinion. It's a big failing among the academics who are the quickest to point it out when it exists in others.
Projecting much? This sort of "drive-by" dismissal doesn't advance conversation in any constructive direction unless you mention what "people like Sam Harris" are ignoring.
The unhappy truth about burning wood has been scientifically established to a moral certainty
If it had been scientifically established to a moral certainty that indoor fireplaces are a scourge to community health, they would already be illegal. Chimeneas and outdoor fireplaces are banned are in Toronto for this very reason. People moaned about their rights for a while, but got over it pretty quickly.
But the dangers of indoor fireplaces have been judged mitigatable through regulation of their construction and installation, so that's why they're still around (and a hell of a lot more expensive than before).
People don't use asbestos or DDT anymore because the scientific case against them was so overwhelming that it became immoral to support their use. If the case against fireplaces is as good as the OP's blog suggests, he should take it to the government.
Controlled fire always gives me a pleasant feeling. And it's not like i'm trying to inhale ALL the smoke. Don't see what could be bad for ones health other than that.
Did you even read any of this thread? The article? Anything? If you did, I'm terribly sorry but you missed the entire point of it. It's a metaphor used to show how we are inherently resistant to facts that contradict our own beliefs, to such an extent that we actively deny and ignore the facts to continue believing what we want to believe.
I know, people like Sam Harris will continue to believe whatever they wish to believe regardless of how the facts contradict their opinion. It's a big failing among the academics who are the quickest to point it out when it exists in others.
What are you talking about? You're saying Sam Harris will keep disregarding the facts after reading an article about how Sam Harris believes it's wrong for people to disregard facts?
Yes, he probably will, because People (as in all of them) do that.
Part of the problem is the limited nature of those facts... ie wood smoke more dangerous than cigarette smoke
That was a single fact... he didn't talk about the different concentrations that people are exposed to though. (although that doesn't affect the environmental argument much)
And while it may be true that there is no safe level of smoke, there are levels of risk. (ie wood smoke probably shouldn't be banned, but there should probably be a tax involved to accomodate the environmental effects.)
Why I could never have guessed that inhaling smoke from burning materials could be harmfull ! I was wondering why it hurts like hell to get smoke in your eyes for example... now I know, marvelous things these "scientists" can come up with eh ? But will I stop making campfires ? of course not, I won't stop eating slightly burnt food, sugar, fat, salt, alchohol either. Just beacuse I like it
In terms of the actual analogy the blog author is making, convincing someone that their beliefs are wrong is not a matter of science. Science has its limits - it can't determine what is moral or make value judgments. It fails us even when we're presented with simple ethical puzzles like the trolly car I was reading about on TL just a few days ago. And the simple fact that billions of people around the globe hold fiercely to their belief systems means that either humanity as a whole has not evolved past mass delusion and hysteria, or that humans have in them by nature a deep calling from some sort of spiritual realm. Atheist isn't a term for someone who doesn't believe in anything, it's a term for someone who believes that god(s) does not exist. We are all creatures of faith, aren't we...
This is ridiculous. I grew up in a house heated by firewood and I never got any breathing disease.
I cross the highway everyday blindfolded and I never got hit by a car.
Win
Sad how many people dont even understand the point made in the OP post. But please. continue you're pointless discussion about how bad / good / you dont care / smoking is... I mean... that was the point for YOU after all.
On February 03 2012 23:37 MrTortoise wrote: Well first off he is a neruoscientist ... they ar a group that operates on a whole class of assumptions that philisophically mean hes inferring all kinds of bullshit from vague correlations. It is one thing to realise which areas of the brain do work during an operation it is quite another to then assume you can infer anything about 'how' things work. Evidence of what i am talking about is that a *lot* of their work has been shown to be false as they didnt ascertain their base levels properly adn most experiements have been based on false assumptions.
He is also an atheist which tells me he looked at the arguments for god, decided that you couldnt answer the question (or misunderstood the arguments) and then decided to give a positive answer anyway.
When you take those 2 things in conjunction you shuold just stop reading.
As for how wood smoke makes me feel? I smoke, but i dont smoke sticks because the smoke is really harsh. So does it suprise me? Not at all. But then again i havent tried smoking a particular blend of wood smoke from a blend of dried woods wrapped in a specific kind of paper that has been refined into something that is enjoyuable to smoke.
So once again its a neurologist operating from a set of really bad assumptions to make a point that is not in any way objective or meaningful.
You grew up in a house with firewood - that presumably had a chimney. Also most people when i was a kid had the same ... the point is that you therefor don't have a baseline to measure against - because *everyone* is under the same considerations. That would be like only studying people with neurological conditions or assuming that you can somehow map neurons firing to a thought process in something that is doing a million things at once and somehow build a causal picture of how it works (when the process of gathering statistical data specifically precludes anything other than being able to say that this is likely to be causal - but we dont know why - to a 95% chance)
Sorry, but your argumentation is really horrible. Firstly, you start of just discrediting the whole of neuroscience as junk science without any proof at all. Being wrong is a part of scientological procedure. You can't start up knowing everything right from the beginning. Thus "They have been wrong in the past" is not an argument to say that a field of science does not work. If you have a complicated system, it takes time to figure stuff out correctly. What you need to understand is that any science is always a work in progress.
Next, i don't get why you come to the conclusion that
He is also an atheist which tells me he looked at the arguments for god, decided that you couldnt answer the question (or misunderstood the arguments) and then decided to give a positive answer anyway.
This is blatently false. Being an atheist means that you look at the arguments for and against the existence of a god, and came to the conclusion that there is none. Now, you might not agree with that conclusion, which is perfectly fine. What you can't do is dogmatically state the answer to a question without any arguments, and then conclude that everyone reaches the same conclusion, and then from there just irrationally chooses a different standpoint.
As for how wood smoke makes me feel? I smoke, but i dont smoke sticks because the smoke is really harsh. So does it suprise me? Not at all. But then again i havent tried smoking a particular blend of wood smoke from a blend of dried woods wrapped in a specific kind of paper that has been refined into something that is enjoyuable to smoke.
So once again its a neurologist operating from a set of really bad assumptions to make a point that is not in any way objective or meaningful.
This does not make any sense at all. I don't even understand what you are getting at with your talk about smoking wood, you are apparently talking about the enjoyment value of wood smoke compared to tobacco smoke, which might be an interesting topic, except that noone else has been talking about that before. Or you are assuming that you can tell if something is dangerous to you just by how it tastes? I don't really know. I heard arsenic tastes pretty sweet. Then you bring up your unfounded grief with neuroscientist up, completely unrelated to anything you were talking about before.
Then you bring up anecdotical evidence and come to absurd conclusions from it. So you grew up in a house with a fireplace, and most people in your area did so, too. That is all nice, but from this you come to the conclusion that there is no control group of people who did not grow up in a house with a fireplace, probably since you can't imagine anyone living in any way different from you. Sorry, but this is absurd. I, for example, grew up in a household without a fireplace. The popularity of using wood fires for heating differs widely from area to area. As such, you can easily find similar areas where in one, people are mostly heating with wood, and in an other, people are heating through some different means. You don't even need 100% wood or 100% no wood, only reasonable differences, to come to a valid conclusion. I can't even understand how you would come to that conclusion. Then, you once again bring up your problem with neuroscience. (And aparently empirical data in general, too, i am not sure if i understand that correctly)
I think this is a prime example of irrationally and very emotionally defending a position without actual reasoning. First, you trying to discredit the argumentator instead of the argument (Which you btw apparently also completely misunderstood, since the firewood was actually not the main part of that article), then you swing into anecdotical evidence and generalise from there. Actually, at this point i am not even sure anymore if you are not just trying to cleverly satirize that way of arguing that is used all-to often, especially in religious debates.
On February 03 2012 20:03 Sated wrote: There's no reason to burn wood in a fire now that we have central heating, gas fires and numerous other ways to heat our homes that are both more efficient and better for the environment. This is another good argument against using wood fires, but it shouldn't really be something that needs debating.
Combustion of wood in a fireplace is actually very efficient with 100% of the energy being released as heat. Your argument just isn't true. Look at it like this. If I use gas or oil to heat my home, that gas or oil must be delivered to my home, which burns more gas and oil before I even start using it in a less that 100% energy efficient furnace. If I go in my back yard and cut a tree down, leave it to dry out, bring it inside, and burn it I am not burning any oil to transport the energy source, and since its a combustion reaction its going to be much more efficient than using a furnace.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
No, I believe his point to be that while atheists/rationalists/sceptics are often baffled by the resistance religious people put up to simple scientific facts, there is a same sort of innate resistance in (as it appears almost) all of us on other (perhaps less meaningfull) issues. He (I think) does this to create some understanding for the stance of others in debates, thus aiming to make the debates better and easyer, which I'd say is a noble cause. And if nothing else, for me at least it was interesting to notice the resistance I immediatly had when reading the article. The statement: "Science is cold and depressing" is one that flows out of the bad PR science has gotten when the new-age scene had to make a niche for themselves and couldnt do it based on any facts, evidence or science. Here's a brilliant translation of my thoughts on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
Edit: To the poster above me: please read my post carefully. I wasn't expressing my mind-blowing amazement at the fact wood-smoke's bad, but at the reaction I had to it, which is also what the main article's point is.
i enjoyed that video, it was very well done and i agree with it.
but that does not change the fact that science is cold and depressing. we take happiness for granted in our lives, which makes the depressing moments hurt even more.
so science, what do you say when my mother dies or gets cancer? = too bad.
okay, well science, what is the meaning of life? = to reproduce.
ermm that's it? well do we actually have any worth in the universe? = no, we are totally insignificant. the entire planet is insignificant in terms of the universe.
therefore, imo the most important thing is the HERE and NOW. enjoy your freaking life.
I don't believe that wood fires are more toxic than cigarettes? I understand the smoke part, but there are SO SO SO many chemicals that are extremely toxic, put in cigarettes. I understand smoke is bad for lungs, but if I'm not inhaling the smoke, it should be practically harmless. If I do inhale the smoke however, I have a hard time believing that it has worse effects than cigarettes.
On February 03 2012 20:03 Sated wrote: There's no reason to burn wood in a fire now that we have central heating, gas fires and numerous other ways to heat our homes that are both more efficient and better for the environment. This is another good argument against using wood fires, but it shouldn't really be something that needs debating.
Combustion of wood in a fireplace is actually very efficient with 100% of the energy being released as heat. Your argument just isn't true. Look at it like this. If I use gas or oil to heat my home, that gas or oil must be delivered to my home, which burns more gas and oil before I even start using it in a less that 100% energy efficient furnace. If I go in my back yard and cut a tree down, leave it to dry out, bring it inside, and burn it I am not burning any oil to transport the energy source, and since its a combustion reaction its going to be much more efficient than using a furnace.
But what you are interested in is not how much of the energy is transformed into heat, but how much is transformed into heat in your house, and even then you probably want different levels of heat at different places of that house. Burning wood in a stove will lose some energy, because with the smoke that travels out of the chimney, there will also be some heat. Without any actual knowledge about woodstoves, i would actually assume that more of the energy leaves the house through the chimney than the amount that stays inside. Also, you have basically one warm spot with the oven, and that heat needs to spread through the house naturally, So you only have a choice between heating so much that everything is warm, or heating the room the stove is in. With central heating you can specifically heat exactly only the rooms you want to be warm.
Also, efficiency is not really relevant in a heat source. What is relevant is the cost/result, both monetary and enviromentally, probably weighted differently depending on your personal position. If i have a heat source that is absurdly cheap, not dangerous in any way, and not threatening to the enviroment, it would be completely irrelevant if you lose 95% of the energy in question if the result is still cheaper then the alternatives.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
No, I believe his point to be that while atheists/rationalists/sceptics are often baffled by the resistance religious people put up to simple scientific facts, there is a same sort of innate resistance in (as it appears almost) all of us on other (perhaps less meaningfull) issues. He (I think) does this to create some understanding for the stance of others in debates, thus aiming to make the debates better and easyer, which I'd say is a noble cause. And if nothing else, for me at least it was interesting to notice the resistance I immediatly had when reading the article. The statement: "Science is cold and depressing" is one that flows out of the bad PR science has gotten when the new-age scene had to make a niche for themselves and couldnt do it based on any facts, evidence or science. Here's a brilliant translation of my thoughts on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
Edit: To the poster above me: please read my post carefully. I wasn't expressing my mind-blowing amazement at the fact wood-smoke's bad, but at the reaction I had to it, which is also what the main article's point is.
i enjoyed that video, it was very well done and i agree with it.
but that does not change the fact that science is cold and depressing. we take happiness for granted in our lives, which makes the depressing moments hurt even more.
so science, what do you say when my mother dies or gets cancer? = too bad.
okay, well science, what is the meaning of life? = to reproduce.
ermm that's it? well do we actually have any worth in the universe? = no, we are totally insignificant. the entire planet is insignificant in terms of the universe.
therefore, imo the most important thing is the HERE and NOW. enjoy your freaking life.
Science shows us how this incredibly complex and beautifull world came to what it is today trough various systems and processes, little puzzles that create beautifull exquisite things out of seemingly random trial and error, it shows us how humans evolved to have moments of love, compassion and altruism, it shows us the wonders of the universe, and as you say; it teaches us that the chance we have trough living is so short that we have to enjoy our short time in this beautifull complex world ^^ Doesn't seem so cold to me? Bad things happen, people die and get sick, and indeed, that is too bad. I prefer "too bad" to "someone intended for you to suffer now" personally, and the meaning of life is otherwise what? to please god? why? to go to heaven? why? Because it's pleasant? So is having fun now, same answer, just because it'll end doesnt mean it's not worth doing it. But we're sidetracking here =)
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
No, I believe his point to be that while atheists/rationalists/sceptics are often baffled by the resistance religious people put up to simple scientific facts, there is a same sort of innate resistance in (as it appears almost) all of us on other (perhaps less meaningfull) issues. He (I think) does this to create some understanding for the stance of others in debates, thus aiming to make the debates better and easyer, which I'd say is a noble cause. And if nothing else, for me at least it was interesting to notice the resistance I immediatly had when reading the article. The statement: "Science is cold and depressing" is one that flows out of the bad PR science has gotten when the new-age scene had to make a niche for themselves and couldnt do it based on any facts, evidence or science. Here's a brilliant translation of my thoughts on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
Edit: To the poster above me: please read my post carefully. I wasn't expressing my mind-blowing amazement at the fact wood-smoke's bad, but at the reaction I had to it, which is also what the main article's point is.
i enjoyed that video, it was very well done and i agree with it.
but that does not change the fact that science is cold and depressing. we take happiness for granted in our lives, which makes the depressing moments hurt even more.
so science, what do you say when my mother dies or gets cancer? = too bad.
okay, well science, what is the meaning of life? = to reproduce.
ermm that's it? well do we actually have any worth in the universe? = no, we are totally insignificant. the entire planet is insignificant in terms of the universe.
therefore, imo the most important thing is the HERE and NOW. enjoy your freaking life.
Science shows us how this incredibly complex and beautifull world came to what it is today trough various systems and processes, little puzzles that create beautifull exquisite things out of seemingly random trial and error, it shows us how humans evolved to have moments of love, compassion and altruism, it shows us the wonders of the universe, and as you say; it teaches us that the chance we have trough living is so short that we have to enjoy our short time in this beautifull complex world ^^ Doesn't seem so cold to me? Bad things happen, people die and get sick, and indeed, that is too bad. I prefer "too bad" to "someone intended for you to suffer now" personally, and the meaning of life is otherwise what? to please god? why? to go to heaven? why? Because it's pleasant? So is having fun now, same answer, just because it'll end doesnt mean it's not worth doing it. But we're sidetracking here =)
err i think you completely missed my point...
the meaning of life is exactly what science says... but my point is that the meaning of life is completely irrelevant unless you enjoy yourself. otherwise you're saying that a man who was sad for his entire life and managed to reproduce, then he succeeded... that's just bs.
imagine for a moment that you're terminally ill, dying in a month and looking back on your life. if you had a sad life then that would make you feel extremely bad, full of regret, like you wasted not only your own life but possibly also didn't spread enough happiness to other people. if you'd lived a happy life then you'd be content, you wouldn't feel regret that you weren't more sad or bored in life.
to have a truely successful and fulfilled life you have to enjoy yourself. if blindly spouting irrelevant scientific facts makes you happy, then do it...
if you want to think of yourself as insignificant, then please give me all of your money and all of your belongings. it will make me happy at least.
Most of the particles generated by burning wood are smaller than one micron—a size believed to be most damaging to our lungs. In fact, these particles are so fine that they can evade our mucociliary defenses and travel directly into the bloodstream, posing a risk to the heart.
I must say that this very specifically caught my attention. It is widely known that Finland - the land of thousand lakes and saunas... etc. - is having a lot of heart and blood circulation related diseases and issues. We have SICK amount of wood in our country and we make crazy amount of fire with it.
yeah but i bet that stress is a bigger killer than wood.. but i don't see any country taking action against stress.
stress is working 12 hours a day for next to minimum wage (national average), being overworked to the point where you can't have a proper break or lunch, being in debt and unable to cope with bills etc... hell that's the average person in the UK i think
burning wood might be seen as theraputic, and stress-releiving. in this sense it's actually HEALTHY to burn wood.... so do it and don't listen to stupid scientists.
thats so true... today i made my first fire of the year couse its just gettin too cold n i was just sitting infront of the fire chillin and gettin my thought process all goin.. very relaxing indeed
I redact my previous acceptance of the article being a failure. I think it's a greater success than he actually intended. Not only has Harris inspired a religious mindset and style of thinking in order to 'put the shoe on the other foot.' But he has also achieved a counter-splinter group forming, that back up their assertions with anecdotal evidence. This is exactly how things happen in the real world; a true microcosm of organised religion right before us, to stare at, jeer, taunt, dissect, study and understand, and Harris has achieved this through his mere writings. This article is brilliant.
not really... his point about religion - i couldn't care less about it. i think all religion is dumb, but if people want to comfort themselves by having faith, then what would i be if i tried to take away that comfort?
his analogy which outlines the extent of the harmful effects of burning wood was the only 'shocking' point in the article and therefore the only thing worth discussing...
i mean, what's our reaction supposed to be? "omg he's totally right, these religious types are dumb! Lol"... no sh*t, i've known that since i was like 9-10 years old when i first started to question the religious brainwashing crap you have to endure in early school.
my religion is that life is meaningless unless you can be happy (without cheating yourself by abusing alcohol or other mind altering drugs, because technically you're not 'living' if you spend a lot of hours in a state of stupor). if smoking a cigarette or sitting infront of a wood fire makes you happy - then that's what you should do. even if statistics show that you die a few years younger, at least you were happier which is the only thing that matters in the end.
i believe my religion is better than any science. science is cold and depressing.
No, I believe his point to be that while atheists/rationalists/sceptics are often baffled by the resistance religious people put up to simple scientific facts, there is a same sort of innate resistance in (as it appears almost) all of us on other (perhaps less meaningfull) issues. He (I think) does this to create some understanding for the stance of others in debates, thus aiming to make the debates better and easyer, which I'd say is a noble cause. And if nothing else, for me at least it was interesting to notice the resistance I immediatly had when reading the article. The statement: "Science is cold and depressing" is one that flows out of the bad PR science has gotten when the new-age scene had to make a niche for themselves and couldnt do it based on any facts, evidence or science. Here's a brilliant translation of my thoughts on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
Edit: To the poster above me: please read my post carefully. I wasn't expressing my mind-blowing amazement at the fact wood-smoke's bad, but at the reaction I had to it, which is also what the main article's point is.
i enjoyed that video, it was very well done and i agree with it.
but that does not change the fact that science is cold and depressing. we take happiness for granted in our lives, which makes the depressing moments hurt even more.
so science, what do you say when my mother dies or gets cancer? = too bad.
okay, well science, what is the meaning of life? = to reproduce.
ermm that's it? well do we actually have any worth in the universe? = no, we are totally insignificant. the entire planet is insignificant in terms of the universe.
therefore, imo the most important thing is the HERE and NOW. enjoy your freaking life.
Science shows us how this incredibly complex and beautifull world came to what it is today trough various systems and processes, little puzzles that create beautifull exquisite things out of seemingly random trial and error, it shows us how humans evolved to have moments of love, compassion and altruism, it shows us the wonders of the universe, and as you say; it teaches us that the chance we have trough living is so short that we have to enjoy our short time in this beautifull complex world ^^ Doesn't seem so cold to me? Bad things happen, people die and get sick, and indeed, that is too bad. I prefer "too bad" to "someone intended for you to suffer now" personally, and the meaning of life is otherwise what? to please god? why? to go to heaven? why? Because it's pleasant? So is having fun now, same answer, just because it'll end doesnt mean it's not worth doing it. But we're sidetracking here =)
err i think you completely missed my point...
the meaning of life is exactly what science says... but my point is that the meaning of life is completely irrelevant unless you enjoy yourself. otherwise you're saying that a man who was sad for his entire life and managed to reproduce, then he succeeded... that's just bs.
to have a truely successful and fulfilled life you have to enjoy yourself. if blindly spouting irrelevant scientific facts makes you happy, then do it...
Wheee!!!!
Did you know that sound travels fifteen times faster through steel than through air?
This is a pretty interesting article. At first I thought the analogy was just backed by something fictitious, but then I re-read the first part of the post and realized he was actually making a serious public service announcement (that doubled as an analogy), with a link to a reviewed paper from a scientific journal.
I have to admit I have trouble believing that fires could be so bad. But its more so due to skepticism rather than irrational intransigence; I'm actually not that sure whether Sam Harris is making things out to be worse than they really are. I can only read the abstracts of the articles he links to, but they just summarize how the paper is divided, not the conclusions. I can't believe all of this, and decide never to spend time next to a campfire ever again based on one blog.
I wonder whether campfires are equally bad as fireplaces at home. If most of the smoke is escaping, and its done once in a while, would he want that banned too? It seems kind of like drinking - alcohol is surely a toxin, but in moderation its ok.
On February 03 2012 23:27 Krowser wrote: Firewood smoke is no worse that everything else we're already breathing.
True that. My condo is smack-dab between a railway corridor and an expressway. I ain't afraid of no smoke.
I aint afraid of no smoke. I'm not hitting the smoke from my camp fires anyway... This won't deter me from having fires in a forest, at the lake or anywhere else. There something special about sitting around a fire whether its by yourself thinking or talking with friends.
On February 04 2012 01:29 radscorpion9 wrote: We shouldn't confuse skepticism with something like religious resistance!
In addition, the blog author thinks that it's because we're being irrational that we still allow fireplaces indoors. It's perfectly rational to perform a cost-benefit analysis, both on a personal level and on a social level, weighing the dangers of smoke with the benefit of having a cool glowy thing in your house.
People know how dangerous smoke inhalation is, but they also know that fireplaces are regulated to mitigate this danger. The statistic in the article about how many people die in improperly ventilated third world shacks of smoke inhalation is very much a red herring; maybe if he presented a statistic relating to smoke deaths (or even lung cancer statistics) from fireplaces that are up to code with current regulation it would impress me more.
Basically what I'm trying to say here is that if there's enough of a scientific consensus that fireplaces should be banned, they probably will be. It happened with asbestos, after all.
fireplace has been a strong part of culture and I mean come on, there are tonnes of things that everyone do commonly are more dangerous than "breathing wood smoke". there is always risk with everything, going on a car ride is super dangerous and cause a lot of pollution and traffic jam, should we ban cars now and all switch to something else?
Full .pdf of the paper referred to in his article - http://www.vtwoodsmoke.org/pdf/Woodsmoke-health.pdf It took me under 15 seconds to find this on google, and it's available to the public - so no excuses for not finding it!
Here's the conclusion as the paper is rather long + Show Spoiler +
Conclusions Recognizing the limitations of current knowledge and need for additional information, we nevertheless offer preliminary answers to the questions raised in the introduction: The hazards of woodsmoke as a mixture. Because woodsmoke is made up of such a large mixture of different chemicals, it is impossible at present to attempt to accurately assess its health impacts by simply summing the potential effects of individual constituents. (Indeed, there are few if any examples in which the effects of mixtures are fully reflected by the summed toxic potentials.) Particularly in high-exposure situations with fresh woodsmoke, as with occupational exposures or vegetation fire episodes, there may be a need to derive indices of exposure that take into account a range of toxic endpoints due to woodsmoke, for example, including acuteacting as well as chronic toxicants, so that appropriate protective actions can be adequately taken. Use of fine particles or any other single metric by itself may not be sufficient in these circumstances. Woodsmoke particles. Nevertheless, at the present time fine particles may represent the best metric to characterize exposures to smoke from residential wood combustion and from wildfire smoke. There is no persuasive evidence that woodsmoke particles are significantly less dangerous for respiratory disease than other major categories of combustion-derived particles in the same size range. There is too little evidence available today, however, to make a judgment about the relative toxicity of woodsmoke particles with respect to cardiovascular or cancer outcomes. Table 6 indicates that millions of people are exposed to smoke from household combustion of wood and other sources of biomass burning. Given the recent upward trend in the costs of oil and natural gas, it is likely that residential biomass combustion will become even more widespread throughout both the developed and developing world. More explicit efforts to reduce emissions from small-scale biomass smoke sources are likely to become even more important in the near future in order to meet air quality goals set to protect health. Finally, returning to the questions posed at the start, we conclude that although there is a large and growing body of evidence linking exposure to wood/biomass smoke itself with both acute and chronic illness, there is insufficient evidence at present to support regulating it separately from its individual components, especially fine particulate matter. In addition, there is insuffi- cient evidence at present to conclude that woodsmoke particles are significantly less or more damaging to health than general ambient fine particles. Nevertheless, given the importance of woodsmoke as a contributor to particle concentrations in many locations, strategies to reduce woodsmoke emissions may be an effective means of lowering particle exposures. In addition, given the weight of toxicologic evidence, additional epidemiologic studies are needed to confirm our conclusions
However again it's missing the point. As the previous 6 comments have highlighted, it's the woeful inability of humanity to accept any evidence that disagrees with strongly held beliefs (I like fires, therefore it isn't bad for me?). If you want to comment on woodsmoke, read the paper, reach an informed decision. Any argument starting with the word "belief" is one I auto-ignore. Thank you university education! :D
EDIT: Although if your decision is that you acknowledge the risks (and your neighbors are ok with it) and do it anyway, then that's fine. But it needs basing in evidence! For instance I know the risks of cycling to work, drinking, eating meat yada yada yada but I do them anyway. But at least it was an informed decision.
On February 04 2012 00:12 Mazaire wrote: I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful.
All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it.
Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous.
I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
On February 03 2012 20:17 shizna wrote: this is paranoia rubbish.
if someone want's to smoke a cigarette, you're being a buffoon if you attempt to stop them - in an attempt to 'break the habit'. they're more than aware of the risks, but they enjoy a smoke and probably aren't worried about living to 78 years old instead of into their 80's. if you're chubby, the smoker has a right to turn around and pinch your hamburger and claim that he's worried for your health.
on the subject of wood fires... gas central heating is faaaaaaaaaar moooooooore expensive than burning a coal fire. especially in a property with poor insulation or without double-glazing. my house gets to about 8-10 degrees celcius in winter, which is unbearably cold... the heating would have to be on 24/7 to raise that by a couple of degrees.
i have a fireplace in the other room that's currently burning with wood on it... the smoke goes up the chimney and away - i certainly can't smell or see any smoke outside - it seems to go right up into the air.
why is there wood on the fire? because last summer we had about 7-8 trees in the garden cut down because they were overgrown and interfering with telephone lines on the street... there is a pile of wood just lying there.
The bolded part is a perfect example of the articles intent to show how ignorant people can be when given scientific evidence. Keep in mind, the problem with cigarettes and the parallel drawn between them and fireplaces is not that you have a right to burn fires (you can legally smoke in most countries) it's the fact you don't have the right to subject others unwillingly to second hand smoke. In most of Canada you can't smoke in commercial or public property etc. because you infringe on the rights of those around you, the article suggests that burning fires in your home should have the same restrictions as smoking cigarettes (but since the smoke is far more widespread than smoking, the ban would effect private homes)
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote: I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.
Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?
On February 04 2012 00:12 Mazaire wrote: I feel a little bit of nanny state happening here but remember guy here related the whole article back to how fundamentalists perceive people when they are told that their religion is wrong. Its actually a very interesting take on the whole atheism vs religion argument and is rather insightful.
All this having been said i am completely indifferent to the wood smoke argument, if its bad for me so be it.
EDIT:
On February 04 2012 00:07 vGl-CoW wrote:
On February 03 2012 23:56 vasculaR wrote: i think a few people missed the point... lol
yeah, about ninety percent of them.. this thread is so depressing
well i read though the thread for the most part and... just... ergh..... come on guys i though starcraft players were smarter than this!
Honestly the OP did not help the matters by naming the thread this way. People have been primed already to expect certain information so they'll likely glean over other details as extraneous.
That was partly the point tho =) As I explained in the opening post, my interest was in peoples initial reaction after reading the idea that burning wood might be dangerous. As I could've expected most people apparantly replied to the title alone without reading anything else and went OMG LOL there's more things out there bad for you who cares, but that missed the point by about a mile.
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote: I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.
Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?
Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote: I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.
Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?
Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
Congrats, you proved that people will respond in certain predictable ways to intentionally provocative statements. What a clever social experiment. -_-
The really funny thing to me is that I just said that people are often in denial in the evil 12 year old thread, and I got flamed by like 6 different people. I guess if I stated that I was only calling religious or anti-environmentalist people delusional then I wouldn't have been met with such anger and repeatedly called a delusional moron.
On February 03 2012 19:40 oGoZenob wrote: How the hell did his atheism has anything to do with this ?
Yeah i don't get it either.
The article was meant to inspire in you the feelings that religious people feel when their beliefs are challenged or shown to be wrong in any way, and how they resist those ideas. If you accepted what Sam Harris said here, instead of denying it like most people would do, then the article wouldn't really help you in that regard..
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote: Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
It wasn't skipped over.
You're simply projecting the effect this blog post had on you (you resisted the facts) on us (who took a look at the facts, assessed them, and found them unremarkable).
I understand that the author of the blog post was trying to make a point about how people react when their irrational beliefs are questioned, but using the fact that fireplaces are dangerous (something society already takes seriously, as demonstrated by the regulations around them) is not the best way of making it.
Why is atheism even mentioned in this article other than to butter up and pander to a specific audience with non-scientific fluff?
Anyways, about the actual scientific content of the article.. there's nothing really surprising in it other than the degree to which burning wood is bad (always thought it would be bad for you, inhaling smoke being a good thing is very unlikely, just wasn't aware it was worse than cigarettes).
I don't really think anyone competent would try to reject this with counterarguments he supposes, so he just wastes more time with unscientific fluff attacking bad religious arguments at the end.
This article isn't even primarily about burning wood or science, it's mostly about militant atheism. Did you copy+paste this from r/atheism or something? The article is so full of shit presupposing that anyone who disagrees with him is incompetent and irrational, I almost puked, especially when he goes about to attack the weakest and dumbest counter-arguments you could imagine in an attempt to confirm his point (another thing that is completely unscientific).
On February 04 2012 02:04 SirKibbleX wrote: I think some smart mod should just start banning the people who obviously didn't read the full OP or argue against the point. Clearly those people are exactly the type who don't get it.
People can read what the OP wrote and respond to that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Expecting every user to open the spoiler and see the giant wall of text and proceed to read every word anyway is not realistic. The OP said that science has proven that wood burning fireplaces are unhealthy and people are simply responding to that statement. Even the title of the OP is that burning wood is dangerous.
Once more people catch on that this is a veiled criticism of "irrational religious people" then this will turn into a religious flame debate. So perhaps some smart mod should close the thread instead?
Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
Why? They wrote exactly what their first reaction was... Your current argument is not even about writing reactions about the contents of the topic, but more some kind of unnecessary social experiment to see how many people bother to read a wall of text before posting a reply and then fire up a debate over ... something ... noone really has a clue about. I dont get the point of the debates in some of these threads on TL. Its like people doesnt have any real person problems so you need to make some up online and yap yap about it in forums. Its not even about trying to prove points, its just about trying to be right about 'something' whatever it is.
How comfortable when the wind blows the smoke from the fire toward you. I don't mean a bit of the smoke, but when essentially, the entire smoke that is produced is blowing in your direction in a horizontal fashion. I don't find it comfortable, and I don't any of my friends find it comfortable either, as we move around the fire.
I think this information is basically similar to everything else with life, a little of something isn't bad, maybe even good. But a lot of something is where you run into problems.
I would not be surprised. The smoke from wood fires is some nasty stuff, and it smells and seems much more unrefined than tabacco smoke. It really seems like the smoke from a blunt. Now when you smoke, you burn small quantities, but with fireplaces the quantity is much higher, so while 1st hand smoke might be less, 2nd hand smoke is much higher. At least that's what I can logically reason from it, as I am no expert
Wow. Gone through the first page and it is damn clear no one has bothered to read the actual article. This burning of wood is an analogy to confronting religious persons about their beliefs. The comparison between the two is made by people not wanting to give up burning wood recreationally [chimney, stove, campire etc) even when it has been proven scientifically and rationally that such behaviour is both detrimental to your health and those around you. Sam Harris' article is trying to give an analogy of what it is like as a person whose basis of thought it rationality to talk, convince or confront the stubbornness of religion. Everyone else talking about the burning of wood and its harmful effects is breaking some TL rules. So many replies to the title of the OP it is fucking sad.
TLDR Sam Harris wrote an excellent piece of the frustrations of the non-religious when attempting to confront the religious about the scientific and rational dichotomy of their beliefs. He used the analogy of burning wood to show how people cling to what behaviours that comforts them (ie sight of a fire, religion) even when they know these behaviours to be harmful as opposed to be rational behaviours (burning gas instead of wood, confronting your own reservations about religion).
FFS TL step your game up and read before you write so you don't look retarded like page 1 of this thread.
OMG, we burned woods for thousands of years, but thanks now we know it's very dangerous to do so. Man if only we knew it earlier ! So many peoples would have been saved !
I'm obviously kidding
Yeah inhalating smokes is bad and doing recreational fire is waste and stupid, but otherwise, wood is the easiest way to get a fire, and history told me that fire can be veeeeerrry usefull. getting warm and cook your meat in many conditions.
Don't misunderstand me, this study is very relevant but that doesn't mean burning wood should be illegal. Who seriously thought that inhalating smoke from wood would be good for health ? It is like a common knowledge since ever. When there is massive fire in forest, this can become a pollution concern, but someone alimenting his chemney won't cause any arm in my opinion...
I just hope nobody will force stupid laws against burning some woods, because this is the heat for the poor, and what pollute more ? your radiator wich consume gas, mazhout or electricity or a regula chimney ? All of this will cause ecological damages but I don't know wich one is worse, I always thought woods wouldn't be....
EDIT : To the post above : Thank god TLers didn't read the full article, this thread would go into religious discussion in no time :p
About smoke beeing unhealthy:Yes this should be obvious and am such i am not completely suprised that inhaling smoke from burning wood is dangerous also. What i do miss in the whole article is a reference to the research. Woodsmoke is dangerous but what the article does not say is HOW dangerous it is. Is this smoke inhaled from burning wood in a small confined room or is this an open windy area around a camp fire? I have no clue how this is measured and as such it would be difficult to say if i believe the claim since its not realy clear what is claimed. Woodsmoke is as dangerous as sigarete smoke is way to general.
My first reaction was indeed "this can not be true, so lets see where they went wrong" and after a bit more examining i come to the conclusion that the claim is to general to have anny meaning. People response "this cant be true" feels logical to me Common believe is that sitting next to a normal fireplace is less unhealthy then sitting in a room filled with sigarette smoke It also makes sense, you dont inhale smoke from a fire, most of it goes staight up in the air due to heat. Was this a fireplace in a room without chimney or with verry bad ventilation? meh...
About the analogy of this case and the case of arguing religion. I am not sure i can fully understand the analogy but it does seem to make sense , and also make no sense at all at the same time lol. The analogy is basicly that people will find it difficult to believe something contrary to their common believes, and even presented with "proof" people wont be easily convinced? That would not suprise me at all though it is interesting. Other then that this analogy is not ok as i feel it is inherently impossible to proof scientifically that god does not exist (just as it is impossible to proof he does exist) The "proof" the atheist presents is not scientific proof unlike the proof that sigarette smoke is bad (asuming now that this was indeed a well done research with verry specific claims, unlike as presented in the article) and thats where the analogy goes a bit wrong imo.
Still its verry interesting and it does make a good point.
That was an interesting article, but what really made it hit home for me are some of the responses in this thread. Some of them may have been unfairly provoked by the misleading thread title, but the extreme defensiveness shown by some posters is fascinating to say the least.
On the matter of the science (although this article has nothing to do with whether or not fires are unhealthy), I really did not know. In the back of my mind I had assumed that the smoke was simply too diffuse to have any significant health effects. I'm surprised that health damages from smoke pollution in suburban areas are not talked about, while a huge segment of the population strongly opposes indoors public smoking for health reasons.
I perceive the goal of the article being the self-critique in changing your opinion of something as commonplace as a fireplace. Good, learning how to change your opinion on deep convictions is important to personal development, and probably to societal development as well. This is an important realisation.
But the argument is made via analogy to smoking and environmental issues, and it's being argued that "we don't actually need to use a fireplace, it's only done recreationally, so maybe you should revise".
If anything, that makes me want to burn wood more than ever. Most likely, fireplaces have a minuscule factor on global environment and public health. Aligning this issue with the current trend of total paranoia on these subjects is either populism or socialism.
The good part is convincing people about changing their opinion on unexpected concerns. I assume the first reports on the health effects of smoking were met with skepticism, as well. But the argument is based on you sharing the viewpoint that something "unhealthy and unenvironmental" is something you need to be immediately concerned about. Misanthropy.
Edit: As a direct response to the topic -- yeah, of course inhaling smoke is dangerous. Cigarettes even have filters to them and don't last several hours. But I'm certain sitting at a fireplace a few times a month or smoking a few cigs a week is completely fine. Keep the intents in mind when consuming propaganda on public health.
It seems like a lot of people didn't even read the article or don't understand the point he is trying to make. He is comparing the reaction he faces with religious groups to reaction he would expect after writing this article which seems to be working very well. It didn't seem like he was saying you must stop doing this. He was just giving the facts to show how dangerous wood fires can be. Then immediately people come in and start trying to rationalize why it is either okay to have wood fires or explain why they will keep having them anyway. Which seems to be exactly what he was expecting. You come in defense of something in the face of factual evidence just because you have been using it all all these years or you enjoy it.
On February 04 2012 03:20 Yettyman wrote: It seems like a lot of people didn't even read the article or don't understand the point he is trying to make. He is comparing the reaction he faces with religious groups to reaction he would expect after writing this article which seems to be working very well. It didn't seem like he was saying you must stop doing this. He was just giving the facts to show how dangerous wood fires can be. Then immediately people come in and start trying to rationalize why it is either okay to have wood fires or explain why they will keep having them anyway. Which seems to be exactly what he was expecting. You come in defense of something in the face of factual evidence just because you have been using it all all these years or you enjoy it.
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone on page ten, I'm sure you're the only person who's mentioned this so far.
But anyways, just because people respond defensively doesn't mean they are ignoring factual evidence. I'm positive that inhaling any smoke is harmful to your health, that's just common sense, but the suggestion that this should dictate some kind of policy change, which is TYPICALLY what happens when these public health/environmental issues come up, then I disagree. That's why people keep bringing up the example of cars, because although they are dangerous, they still have value to people.
Now if people were coming in here and saying things like "That's BS, the science is wrong, inhaling smoke isn't harmful at all" then I might agree with the point that it is similar to religious fanaticism. Just saying "lol look people got defensive" is stupid.
I feel like these side effects are minimal and can easily be prevented, yes burning wood over on an open fire is worse than burning gas, but gas its not a renewable recourse. Entire forests burn with not adverse affects to the environment so, I think it is quite harsh to say bluntly stop burning wood and make it illegal its just plain stupid, such as banning the use of incandescent light bulbs, they both make no sense. Rather they should be altered such as cigarettes, for example incandescent light bulbs could have a much higher tax rate to discourage their use along with the risks to the environment of using them, but should not be banned completely. Fire's along a similar line should not be stopped or made illegal, that's just plain ridiculous why not require a filtration system if you are using wood, because for the foreseeable future wood will remain very cheep relative to gas and other heating methods, and a simple filtration system could fix these negative short term effects of burning wood while leaving the great long term effects that created this civilization. * did not reread i hope that made sense*
On February 04 2012 03:20 Yettyman wrote: It seems like a lot of people didn't even read the article or don't understand the point he is trying to make. He is comparing the reaction he faces with religious groups to reaction he would expect after writing this article which seems to be working very well. It didn't seem like he was saying you must stop doing this. He was just giving the facts to show how dangerous wood fires can be. Then immediately people come in and start trying to rationalize why it is either okay to have wood fires or explain why they will keep having them anyway. Which seems to be exactly what he was expecting. You come in defense of something in the face of factual evidence just because you have been using it all all these years or you enjoy it.
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone on page ten, I'm sure you're the only person who's mentioned this so far.
But anyways, just because people respond defensively doesn't mean they are ignoring factual evidence. I'm positive that inhaling any smoke is harmful to your health, that's just common sense, but the suggestion that this should dictate some kind of policy change, which is TYPICALLY what happens when these public health/environmental issues come up, then I disagree. That's why people keep bringing up the example of cars, because although they are dangerous, they still have value to people.
Now if people were coming in here and saying things like "That's BS, the science is wrong, inhaling smoke isn't harmful at all" then I might agree with the point that it is similar to religious fanaticism. Just saying "lol look people got defensive" is stupid.
Bingo. The OP's blog post is about dismissal of evidence based on faith; most of us simply don't think that the evidence necessitates anything.
Wood smoke could be worse than tobacco for you, but do they take into account the fact you suck tobacco smoke right down into your lungs? I think its negligible at most, the human race has been burning wood for thousands of years and never noticed it before.
I believe it, and honestly I'm not surprised at all.
My only hesitation in believing it fully is that lack of citation or links, and I don't normally trust anything on the internet without citations or links. But I don't really doubt it is true.
Now that I think about it, I haven't been around burning wood in years. Oh well. Gas logs, anyone?
the fuck? I never would have guessed... I mean, instinctivly I never think that inhaling fumes is a good idea, as it certainly can't be helpful at least, but this? Burning wood is worse than smoking? I mean the "sugar is dangerous"-thread I just laughed at and ignored because I wouldn't change because of it, but this... might... I'll look more into it before I decide where I stand on this
We love everything about it: the warmth, the beauty of its flames, and—unless one is allergic to smoke—the smell that it imparts to the surrounding air. I am sorry to say that if you feel this way about a wood fire, you are not only wrong but dangerously misguided.
Breathing smoke is bad, and therefor fire isn't warm, flames aren't beautiful, and you don't enjoy the smell you enjoy. Seems pretty strawman, was that the point?
On February 04 2012 03:20 Yettyman wrote: It seems like a lot of people didn't even read the article or don't understand the point he is trying to make. He is comparing the reaction he faces with religious groups to reaction he would expect after writing this article which seems to be working very well. It didn't seem like he was saying you must stop doing this. He was just giving the facts to show how dangerous wood fires can be. Then immediately people come in and start trying to rationalize why it is either okay to have wood fires or explain why they will keep having them anyway. Which seems to be exactly what he was expecting. You come in defense of something in the face of factual evidence just because you have been using it all all these years or you enjoy it.
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone on page ten, I'm sure you're the only person who's mentioned this so far.
But anyways, just because people respond defensively doesn't mean they are ignoring factual evidence. I'm positive that inhaling any smoke is harmful to your health, that's just common sense, but the suggestion that this should dictate some kind of policy change, which is TYPICALLY what happens when these public health/environmental issues come up, then I disagree. That's why people keep bringing up the example of cars, because although they are dangerous, they still have value to people.
Now if people were coming in here and saying things like "That's BS, the science is wrong, inhaling smoke isn't harmful at all" then I might agree with the point that it is similar to religious fanaticism. Just saying "lol look people got defensive" is stupid.
Bingo. The OP's blog post is about dismissal of evidence based on faith; most of us simply don't think that the evidence necessitates anything.
Precisely, and now trying to examine WHY we are so apt to dismiss (or believe) this distinguished religious atheistic fanatic's point, let's delve!
It seems to me that many nonbelievers have forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of religious people to adopt this same attitude.
Oh man an opening sentence LIKE THAT ^^| ? Dichotomy 'us versus them'.
[inserts science that no one cares about but can't really find any blatant problem with, so now you're convinced amirite? Any of you even bother to check it, sources? I didn't, but then again, it conflicts with my beliefs, therefore it MUST be wrong!]
I suspect that many of you have already begun to marshal counterarguments of a sort that will be familiar to anyone who has debated the validity and usefulness of religion. Here is one: Human beings have warmed themselves around fires for tens of thousands of years, and this practice was instrumental in our survival as a species. Without fire there would be no material culture. Nothing is more natural to us than burning wood to stay warm.
/Agenda {well ok it's somewhat to be expected}
True enough. But many other things are just as natural—such as dying at the ripe old age of thirty. Dying in childbirth is eminently natural, as is premature death from scores of diseases that are now preventable. Getting eaten by a lion or a bear is also your birthright—or would be, but for the protective artifice of civilization—and becoming a meal for a larger carnivore would connect you to the deep history of our species as surely as the pleasures of the hearth ever could. For nearly two centuries the divide between what is natural—and all the needless misery that entails—and what is good has been growing.
Natural =/= good ... ? 'See guys, I'm right [because I support convenience and the easy life].'
I have discovered that when I make this case, even to highly intelligent and health-conscious men and women, a psychological truth['high' intellectual language] quickly becomes as visible as a pair of clenched fists['low' primitive language of violence]: They do not want to believe any of it. Most people I meet want to live in a world in which wood smoke is harmless. Indeed, they seem committed to living in such a world, regardless of the facts. To try to convince them that burning wood is harmful—and has always been so—is somehow offensive['well I'm right y'know']. The ritual['low' primitive language] of burning wood is simply too comforting and too familiar to be reconsidered, its consolation so ancient and ubiquitous that it has to be benign. The alternative—burning gas over fake logs—seems a sacrilege.
'Sadly, I am right again, yet none of my friends wish to believe me, even the smart ones }: . ' Note again the dichotomy, which is parallel to 'high vs low' 'with me or against me'.
The point I'm trying to make [to those who haven't picked up on it yet], the register and style of this piece is highly polarizing, forcing the reader to make a truth check ["do I agree or disagree, completely" as he's left no middle-ground]. By appealing to popular ideals (intellectualism, convenience, civilization etc.) he tries to tip the reader's opinion onto his side of the artificial wall he is inciting. Oh, well, that and demeaning and categorically dismissing the intellect (among just about everything else) of anyone who disagrees with him. Insert ANY agenda into this winning formula, and you've got some excellent rabble-rousing material for the congregation, next time service is convened. <:
Picking at the technicalities, It seems to me that many nonbelievers have this gentleman has forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer from an unhappy collision with scientific rationality a nice cheery fire, or perhaps it was such a disaster he wishes to pass a law against it! [I'm being flip] If he'd done it right, the nice warm air would be sucked from the whole house, up to feed the fire, and through a couple of stories out the chimney. Note how none of the smoke goes into the house; the only direction the air goes is out. Are you going to try and scare us with benzene? I'd rise faster than the rest of the air and get sucked out faster. Yes go outside and you'd breath it, but in the dead of winter? Really? Who's even going to have a window open! ---> lol-fail-pwned-stfu
And while being eaten or dying are animal traits of the past, community (close family unit), organized society and mastery over fire (all symbolized by fireplace) are still valid enough themes not to be thrown out quite yet.
Ugh I should have gone straight to the article before reading the description of the author. Nevertheless (I bet u can guess which side of the wall I fall on, u haz brain!) the opening sentence reeked of "I. am. stuck. up. [expand upon this idea profusely]". Will we still have fires during the winter? Yes. Was this more informative than /b/ today? Well, as you must be convinced by now Christians like me most certainly don't have brains, or at least rational ones, so <: dude needs to skate some more IMO
Fundamental problem with analogy? The harmfulness of smoke is provable, atheism is not. The scientific process can show what in smoke is bad, science cannot disprove religion, or say how it is bad. That would be Philosophy. At one time, the two were closely linked, but no more. It seems that people such as Dawkins, Harris, and Co. are liked because, despite atheist claims, these men are very reliant on rhetoric, and the feeling that "this speaker makes me feel smart". They tell religion to stay out of science, and yet they won't keep science out of philosophy! (Though I don't believe the two disagree anyway.) These men love to attack general ideas and straw men, I've never once heard them say "(insert someone: Augustine, Calvin, etc.) is wrong about X because of Y". Atheists are human beings as well, and subject to the same effects when having their ego stroked, etc, as everyone else. Even in this article, he is catering to an audience.
As for fires, I don't care. I like them, and will continue using them whenever I camp
If your fireplace is filling your house with smoke, there's a problem with it. A properly working fireplace draws air from inside the house through the chimney. I can't even smell smoke when I have a fire.
Smoke IS bad for you, but I strongly doubt that sitting upwind of a campfire is worse than smoking cigarettes.
So the analogy is... Making anti-smoke arguments about fire is like making atheistic arguments about religion. (there is more to religion than God, just as there is more to fire than smoke)
Most people understand that arguments about a single aspect don't negate the whole. And so OP is a sad panda because he can't logic his friends into not going to church?
On February 04 2012 02:26 Promises wrote: Ok, the title was perhaps too provocative (altho, again, that was the fucking point, the immediate resistance built up after reading something like that) altho the question mark is there for a reason. And the OP (me) said:
Now the main thing I'm interested in, and one of the main things he highlights, is how you feel yourself react to this. The second I read his intro I was building up resistance to the idea that fireplace's would be bad, and that it must all be overprotective bullshit etc. Weird, because the facts don't lie and if it were something else that I don't love as much as an open fire I wouldn't feel any of this resistance to take in the facts. If you're up for it; have a read and let me know how it registered with you =)
A part that people apparantly skipped over as soon as they started fuming at the mouth over the title =)
It wasn't skipped over.
You're simply projecting the effect this blog post had on you (you resisted the facts) on us (who took a look at the facts, assessed them, and found them unremarkable).
I understand that the author of the blog post was trying to make a point about how people react when their irrational beliefs are questioned, but using the fact that fireplaces are dangerous (something society already takes seriously, as demonstrated by the regulations around them) is not the best way of making it.
And that would've been a perfectly reasonable response to the opening post. It answers the question for you; you didn't find yourself resisting so much, you knew of the risks and you find the analogy to religion thought to be bad. A response like "yes you moron, smoke is dangerous, live a little" completely misses that point and the question.
Fundamental problem with analogy? The harmfulness of smoke is provable, atheism is not. The scientific process can show what in smoke is bad, science cannot disprove religion, or say how it is bad. That would be Philosophy. At one time, the two were closely linked, but no more. It seems that people such as Dawkins, Harris, and Co. are liked because, despite atheist claims, these men are very reliant on rhetoric, and the feeling that "this speaker makes me feel smart". They tell religion to stay out of science, and yet they won't keep science out of philosophy! (Though I don't believe the two disagree anyway.) These men love to attack general ideas and straw men, I've never once heard them say "(insert someone: Augustine, Calvin, etc.) is wrong about X because of Y". Atheists are human beings as well, and subject to the same effects when having their ego stroked, etc, as everyone else. Even in this article, he is catering to an audience.
As for fires, I don't care. I like them, and will continue using them whenever I camp
Because nobody ever on this planet has been harmed by organised religion in any way right? That's why this analogy is invalid?
Do you know that's an irrelevant straw man or do you actually think you're refuting what he's saying with it?
I've thought about this for a while, because although I understand Harris is trying to illustrate the visceral reaction people feel when their core beliefs are challenged by evidence, I felt unsatisfied by his attempt to draw an analogy with religion. I think it's because the analogy is very imperfect. In religious debates, the existence of god is a purely a question of truth or falsity. The whole institution of science - the very idea that we can understand the way the world works by making observations - is wholly opposed to the institution of religion (so the new atheists assert). However, this is plainly untrue when it relates to the regulation of burning wood.
If Harris is merely suggesting that scientific evidence proves that burning wood is unhealthy for humans, then fine he has illustrated this point. If Harris is merely illustrating the resulting cognitive dissonance when presented with evidence contrary to commonly held beliefs, then fine he has also illustrated his point. But I feel as though Harris is suggesting something deeper. By drawing the analogy with religion that he is drawing, he appears to suggest that scientific evidence proves (or at least very strongly suggests) that burning wood should be regulated. It is as though he is saying a failure to agree with him about this point is a failure to come to terms with the scientific evidence. This is dangerous territory. In public policy debates, science is supposed to inform debates - not to settle them. Unlike religious debates (on the existence of god) where science can purportedly settle the debates as a matter of truth and falsity, it simply cannot do so in public policy debates. Issues relating to social convention, tradition, the reach of government are all relevant issues that need to be weighed before a public policy can be settled upon. In fact, Harris appears to acknowledge this point. He says:
Even if you reject every intrusion of the “nanny state,” you should agree that the recreational burning of wood is unethical and should be illegal, especially in urban areas. By lighting a fire, you are creating pollution that you cannot dispose. It might be the clearest day of the year, but burn a sufficient quantity of wood and the air in the vicinity of your home will resemble a bad day in Beijing. Your neighbors should not have to pay the cost of this archaic behavior of yours. And there is no way they can transfer this cost to you in a way that would preserve their interests. Therefore, even libertarians should be willing to pass a law prohibiting the recreational burning of wood in favor of cleaner alternatives (like gas).
Plainly, Harris is not making a scientific point. Whatever you think of the merits of what he is saying, the assertion that "Your neighbours should not have to pay the cost of this archaic behaviour of yours" is not a scientific assertion. And if Harris is asserting that there is some obvious pathway between scientific assertion and moral assertions (in spite of the very difficult is-ought problem), I think we at least deserve an explanation.
I think therefore that beyond illustrating the visceral reaction that someone might hear scientific evidence contradict their commonly held assertions (i.e. the commonly held assertion that burning wood is not dangerous), his more general points should be viewed with some suspicion.