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On January 24 2012 07:50 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 07:43 Xivsa wrote:
As Donald Rumsfeld eloquently put it, "Stuff happens." Great, I'll use it the next time I commit a serious crime.
Depends on the context, as long as you're serving in a winning side of a war you could get away with alot of shit.
On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison.
American justice system =/= military courts. Civilian and military courts are extremely far apart in terms of well.. alot.
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On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison.
Aaaaaaaand read the post above you.
I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now?
"Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt)
Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast 
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On January 24 2012 08:33 forgottendreams wrote:
American justice system =/= military courts. Civilian and military courts are extremely far apart in terms of well.. alot.
This is a good point. I don't have any familiarity with how Article 23 hearings work or exactly what the standards for evidence or proof are.
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On January 24 2012 08:26 Notfragile wrote:Pathetic. DISGUSTING. Is this shit justice?? 24 lives = 3 months in jail. 3,75 days per life taken. We are talking about men, women, children, all unarmed. Why the hell is the life of 24 an Iraqis worth less than an illegal mp3 download? Why the hell do you put up with this obviously non-humanitarian justice system?? Edit: I just read this in the spoiler tag, about one of the houses assaulted. This is just horrifying. Monstrous. How can this so called "human" walk after 3 months?? + Show Spoiler +House #2—8 killed: Shot at close range and attacked with grenades
Younis Salim Khafif, 43—husband of Aida Yasin Ahmed, father.
Aida Yasin Ahmed, 41—wife of Younis Salim Khafif, killed trying to shield her youngest daughter Aisha.
Muhammad Younis Salim, 8—son.
Noor Younis Salim, 14—daughter.
Sabaa Younis Salim, 10—daughter.
Zainab Younis Salim, 5—daughter.
Aisha Younis Salim, 3—daughter.
A 1-year-old girl staying with the family.
And the fucked up thing about me reading up about this on Wikipedia, its sad and wrong. 4 brothers killed in a house together, and practically 2 entire families massacred in their homes. This is why Iraq hates us so much, because we don't give a fuck about their country or citizens, just their oil.... -__-
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On January 24 2012 08:34 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison. Aaaaaaaand read the post above you. I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now? "Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt) Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast
Proving that they died doesn't prove everything else.
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On January 24 2012 08:23 DannyJ wrote:
Lol OP " honestly I am curious about the reactions of american posters." What do you want them to say, 3 months is too long?
They are coming.
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On January 24 2012 08:34 Notfragile wrote:Aaaaaaaand read the post above you. I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now? "Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt) Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast
I read all of those references before I posted and no they aren't enough. Again, NO Iraqis testified at the trial. Cell-phone interviews aside, the court never heard from any of those people. Certainly someone massacred those people, but can we say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was these Marines? Having not seen the actual evidence, I can't say.
Just because we are both pretty sure that they did this, doesn't mean that it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. BUT I digress because as this was already pointed out, this investigation was carried out as part of an Article 32 hearing and I don't know what the rules are there.
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On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison.
so as long i dont leave evidence behind i can make war crimes just like the nazis in WW2 and get away with it
yeah truly great
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On January 24 2012 08:23 DannyJ wrote:
Lol OP " honestly I am curious about the reactions of american posters." What do you want them to say, 3 months is too long?
On January 24 2012 08:41 Anytus wrote:
I read all of those references before I posted and no they aren't enough. Again, NO Iraqis testified at the trial. Cell-phone interviews aside, the court never heard from any of those people. Certainly someone massacred those people, but can we say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was these Marines? Having not seen the actual evidence, I can't say.
They are here.
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It's My Lai Massacre all over again!
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On January 24 2012 08:38 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 08:34 Notfragile wrote:On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison. Aaaaaaaand read the post above you. I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now? "Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt) Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast Proving that they died doesn't prove everything else.
"the killings were methodical and without resistance"
"Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack"
Read. Unarmed civilians (and not even teenager children) + no weapons found + no insurgents hiding in the houses = blind, indiscriminate slaughter.
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On January 24 2012 08:42 perser84 wrote:
so as long i dont leave evidence behind i can make war crimes just like the nazis in WW2 and get away with it
yeah truly great
Sadly, yes. If you commit a crime and leave absolutely no evidence, you can get away with it. Why? because there's no principled way to differentiate between you and an innocent person.
I'll say it again just to clarify. I believe that these marines massacred those people and I'd like them to be punished for it with long long long jail sentences.
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What the fuck? You can get more time for possession of marijuana than what that guy got. That is seriously fucked up, this guy put it perfectly:
On January 24 2012 07:41 Mohdoo wrote:
Soldiers should be MORE accountable for lives they take, not less. Same goes for any job where someone is given a gun. With great power comes great responsibility. So stupid.
Agreed.
The justice system in the US is getting more and more ridiculous.
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On January 24 2012 08:41 Anytus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 08:34 Notfragile wrote:Aaaaaaaand read the post above you. I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now? "Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt) Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast I read all of those references before I posted and no they aren't enough. Again, NO Iraqis testified at the trial. Cell-phone interviews aside, the court never heard from any of those people. Certainly someone massacred those people, but can we say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was these Marines? Having not seen the actual evidence, I can't say. Just because we are both pretty sure that they did this, doesn't mean that it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. BUT I digress because as this was already pointed out, this investigation was carried out as part of an Article 32 hearing and I don't know what the rules are there.
Read the OP. "The final US Marine to face charges over the killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians in Haditha in 2005 has pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty."
They even admitted it was them. It's not about doubts, there are no doubts.
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Thank goodness there are no plans to end our war on terrorism! Otherwise the majority of Americans abroad might be liable for their actions....
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On January 24 2012 08:44 Notfragile wrote:
"the killings were methodical and without resistance"
"Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack"
Read. Unarmed civilians (and not even teenager children) + no weapons found + no insurgents hiding in the houses = blind, indiscriminate slaughter.
Yes a lot of unarmed civilians were massacred. No one disputes that. What evidence proves that it was this group of Marines? Remember, no eye witnesses testified at the trial, other than the marines themselves. No forensics was done on the crime scene to match the weapons to those of the marines on trial.
Just because you know they did it and I know they did it doesn't mean you can prove it in a court of law.
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On January 24 2012 08:44 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 08:38 Daniri wrote:On January 24 2012 08:34 Notfragile wrote:On January 24 2012 08:28 Anytus wrote:
Before everyone here jumps to conclusions, realize that the prosecution had very little evidence. What I believe these men did is despicable. In a perfect world, they would ABSOLUTELY go to prison for most if not all of their lives. However, there just isn't the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they murdered or committed manslaughter. Basically no forensics were taken, no Iraquis testified, and the only other testimony came from other defendants (who clearly had a conflict of interest, lie to save themselves).
As sad and horrible this is, this is how the American justice system SHOULD work. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Murderers go free in the US; it is the price we pay for trying to not put innocent people in prison. Aaaaaaaand read the post above you. I guess concrete forensic evidence were needed in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a whole family was decimated. What, remnants of grenades and army bullets inside children who were in their own house aren't enough now? "Video shot by the co-founder of the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, Taher Thabet, which instigated Tim McGirk's original Time magazine article, and cellphone photos reportedly taken by one of the Marines[29] the day after the killings have been put forth as evidence that the killings were methodical and without resistance.[2][30] In particular, the video shot by Thabet shows the bodies of the children and women with gunshot wounds, bullet holes in the interior walls of the house, and bloodstains on the floor. Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack." (source: wikipedia, go check their own references if you still doubt) Damn me, I seem to jump to conclusions really fast Proving that they died doesn't prove everything else. "the killings were methodical and without resistance" "Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack" Read. Unarmed civilians (and not even teenager children) + no weapons found + no insurgents hiding in the houses = blind, indiscriminate slaughter.
Maybe to a trial by mob. Comprehend.
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On January 24 2012 08:42 perser84 wrote:
so as long i dont leave evidence behind i can make war crimes just like the nazis in WW2 and get away with it
Actually, if you're not American, prosecutors can still hang you with "command responsibility" in the right circumstances.
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And the war on "terrorism" continues! We're protecting the West, right? No, this 'war' is the most fucking pointless shit I've ever seen. USA could be defensive and improve their security but they decide to attack Iraq. Why does no one in the world think that's kind of 'personal matters' for US? The United Nations should punish USA for this and stop the war.
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EPT
