On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
That wasn't the case for me and Dawn of War 2, and the first CoD Modern Warfare.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
funny because you can read about such people right here, me for example games include: warcraft3+tft (ok, so i get to play the multiplayer but i could have gotten a friends key just as easily) civilization4(depending on what you mean by finnished, i played alot before i bought it, multiplayer civ4 doesn't seem fun at all for me i just bought it cause the game's frickin awesome) warhammer40k:space marine(hmm, probably didn't completely finished it but i still got a long way through before i bought it) starcraft:broodwar i have both pirated(to play on iccup when i lost key) and bought more than one copy due to losing cdkeys and stuff ^^. Also sure there are bunch of games i enjoyed but never bought because i can't justify spending all my money on videogames. But also alot of extremely shitty games i might have bought if i didn't get the chance to pirate them first, TES: oblivion is my best example of that, worst game i have ever spent time on they should pay me for wasting my life for that piece of shit they call a game(also a particularly devious trap since the demo wouldn't have revealed any of the shittyness and reviews were for some reason positive) personally i feel justified pirating just for oblivion alone, and anyone who would call me a thief is wrong, maybe pirating is morally wrong and i certainly feel it's a problem that should be dealt with somehow but it's still not the same thing as thieving(which btw also can be justified depending on circumstances).
On November 30 2011 23:42 daemir wrote: The industry itself is feeding the pirating machine, plenty of good points in this topic.
Something is very, VERY wrong with the product if the pirated version is simpler, easier and more convenient to use than a legally purchased copy.
Pricing on products, especially some electronic vs physical products is downright retarded. Example from a well known, well loved(?) Blizzard Entertainment and none other than Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty:
The day or 2 before the digital game price was announced, it was, if memory serves, very much the release date of the physical box as well. Local shops were pricing it at the 30euros range, give or take a 5, but this time I decided, to hell with a box and all that crap, let's save the planet and not buy useless garbage coming with the box, but instead get a digital copy. And then the day dawns, when the digital copy pricing is revealed, 59.90 euros. For a digital copy. Vs a 29.90 from local store box. Hell, the collectors edition was priced 35.90. ... ... yea, I cancelled the "digital preorder" and legged to the store to buy a box for 29.90 instead.
Wait, what? SC2 was 30 Euro on release in your local store? It's only down to 40 in here, and that's only now, it cost way more on release... That's not how you make loyal customers. Meh.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
My mate, Dangerous Dave, he buys games he pirated after he finishes them. It leads to at least a couple of replays in any case.
Just an example of F'd up pricing. How can you justify shit like this to an end user? How can the customer with common sense understand that a printed, packaged and shipped version costs HALF of what a digital download does.
Yeah, I can't wrap my head around this either. Digital download platforms are a great idea and they can actually work to lower piracy and boost sales. But if the games are more expensive as digital download than they are as a hardcopy, it just takes away almost all the appeal.
It seems that the game developers are being pressured by retails organizations to not make digital downloads competitive, because as soon as digital downloads compete on price with hardcopy versions, I expect hardcopy sales to plummet.
It's important to note that out of those 4.5 million for The Witcher 2, a lot of them would not have bought it if it was the only way to get ahold of it. Just like with music, if you are downloading it you're getting a lot that you would not otherwise. I myself, and I guess a lot of others, download games first to try them out before deciding to buy. Needless to say, I bought Skyrim about a day later
I downloaded TW2, would I have bought this game if I didn't download it? No. Friend told me it was a great game so I downloaded, really liked it and recommended to like 10 other friends who bought it. By this "flawless logic" I guess you could say piracy made 10 extra customers who otherwise wouldn't have bought this game?
The companies obviously lose some cash to people who download the games, but I think this is evened out since more people have the game, so if the game is good people will recommend it and some of those will buy it. Obviously that's just my opinion and not supported by facts.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
It only really applies to multiplayer. As I understand it (never pirated a game beyond SNES emulator since most of my cartridges were broke anyways) you cant MP on pirate copies for most modern games. I dunno how tough it is to get a legit cd key and have it work tho.
On November 30 2011 23:42 daemir wrote: The industry itself is feeding the pirating machine, plenty of good points in this topic.
Something is very, VERY wrong with the product if the pirated version is simpler, easier and more convenient to use than a legally purchased copy.
Pricing on products, especially some electronic vs physical products is downright retarded. Example from a well known, well loved(?) Blizzard Entertainment and none other than Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty:
The day or 2 before the digital game price was announced, it was, if memory serves, very much the release date of the physical box as well. Local shops were pricing it at the 30euros range, give or take a 5, but this time I decided, to hell with a box and all that crap, let's save the planet and not buy useless garbage coming with the box, but instead get a digital copy. And then the day dawns, when the digital copy pricing is revealed, 59.90 euros. For a digital copy. Vs a 29.90 from local store box. Hell, the collectors edition was priced 35.90. ... ... yea, I cancelled the "digital preorder" and legged to the store to buy a box for 29.90 instead.
Wait, what? SC2 was 30 Euro on release in your local store? It's only down to 40 in here, and that's only now, it cost way more on release... That's not how you make loyal customers. Meh.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
My mate, Dangerous Dave, he buys games he pirated after he finishes them. It leads to at least a couple of replays in any case.
Just an example of F'd up pricing. How can you justify shit like this to an end user? How can the customer with common sense understand that a printed, packaged and shipped version costs HALF of what a digital download does.
Yeah, I can't wrap my head around this either. Digital download platforms are a great idea and they can actually work to lower piracy and boost sales. But if the games are more expensive as digital download than they are as a hardcopy, it just takes away almost all the appeal.
It seems that the game developers are being pressured by retails organizations to not make digital downloads competitive, because as soon as digital downloads compete on price with hardcopy versions, I expect hardcopy sales to plummet.
Oh and to continue this SC2 example further, you buy this hardcopy, get the CD key out of it, enter it into your battle.net account and get access to the aforementioned 60e digital copy anyway, as you can dl clients from bnet acc.
So if piracy is a problem, game houses and publishers can look into the mirror first before throwing too heavy rocks around.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
It only really applies to multiplayer. As I understand it (never pirated a game beyond SNES emulator since most of my cartridges were broke anyways) you cant MP on pirate copies for most modern games. I dunno how tough it is to get a legit cd key and have it work tho.
You can't get CD keys, period. The algorithm can't be emulated once it reaches a certain complexity. The only way would be to have someone on the inside to provide the algorithm. I'd even assume they're multi-layered in case it's leaked (mathematically possible, dunno about the implementation today).
Usually you get near perfect copy protection for MP games with the CD key. SP games are a whole different matter. The way I see it the only really uncrackable DRM would be to stream certain code through a cloud (as done with Assassin's Creed). Cracking that can be made so incredibly hard if you only provide results from code executed on the servers that no group should manage it in time to be relevant. With movies and music and eventually games I'm also looking at streaming. The Frauenhofer Institute has proven that it's possible to embed unique water marks into the actual data of video and audio without that alteration being noticeable, even through analogue copies and reencodes. Now while that may not seem like a big deal they could for example cut people off if a file with the correspondent unique water mark appears on some filesharing network. Yes, this is legally shady but possible. Not to mention how OnLive and Gaikai make it impossible to copy any game from them.
The whole problem will disappear the sooner we get massive streaming capabilities. Maybe the companies shold just stick with the basic, easy DRM they already have and instead throw their money at clouds.
I'm hoping that alll major Internet providers enact blockades that simply don't allow access to torrent/p2p sites. It's the only way to stop stealing on such a large scale.
On December 01 2011 00:18 Kickboxer wrote: I've never heard of someone buying a game after having downloaded and played (finished) it. Ever. I don't know who is spreading these platitudes but stuff like this is hurting any reasonable discussion. Stop kidding yourselves... if you pirate a game you either finish it and forget about it or decide you don't like it. None of those leads to a purchase.
On December 01 2011 01:24 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: I'm hoping that alll major Internet providers enact blockades that simply don't allow access to torrent/p2p sites. It's the only way to stop stealing on such a large scale.
Good way to prevent sharing legal information as well. Talk about a cutting off ones nose to spite the face.
DRM does not stop piracy. All DRM does, all it EVER has done is hurt the buyers. Pirates copy and paste a crack and they play the game no problem, even on Multiplayer in a lot of cases. DRM that makes it so you can only DL it on 3 computers, or that you must be online at all times, or uses intrusive spyware to scan your computer -- it does NOTHING to stop Piracy. It ONLY hurts the buyers.
Gabe Newell states it best. 1:05 in.
Also, many pirates DL games they enjoy. EVERY game torrent has "If you enjoy the game, support the developers and buy it!" I know on Bitgamer there was a poll of like 14,000 people and roughly 88% said they purchase games they enjoy. It's not conclusive evidence, but come on.
There's ways to stop piracy. Gabe Newell gets it right.
Long story short: Those epic 50+ hour experiences you grew up playing will be replaced by episodic, DLC, subscription based, watered-down nonsense. The crux of the problem is, how do you provide incentive for players to pay to play your game? How do you deter piracy?
Piracy is for the game developers what terrorism is for the US government: just an excuse to expoloit innocent people.
The "I pirated it and then bought it" model Could be used by the industry... but only if buying it gives the consumer something they wouldn't have otherwise.
With something like WoW they can sort of do that, subscription base allows a cheaper initial game. You could also have demo versions. (released for free, but limited)
The opinion of a company who has sold over a million copies of a game despite piracy is meaningless. The Witcher 2 is successful, but they're passing their success as "proof" that piracy is an avoidable factor.
How about an interview of a fledgling indie game designer who has sold less than 1000 copies of their game, but has seen it pirated more than 10000 times? That's what piracy hurts, not the big guys.
On December 01 2011 01:32 andrea20 wrote: The opinion of a company who has sold over a million copies of a game despite piracy is meaningless. The Witcher 2 is successful, but they're passing their success as "proof" that piracy is an avoidable factor.
How about an interview of a fledgling indie game designer who has sold less than 1000 copies of their game, but has seen it pirated more than 10000 times? That's what piracy hurts, not the big guys.
If the indie game designers game is truely an amazing piece of work, people will buy it.
On November 30 2011 22:24 Interloper wrote: Many people who pirate do so because they want to try a game out. If they enjoy the game, they will buy it too support the developer. 4,5 million downloads becomes a useless figure since you can not in any way know how many of those 4,5 million purchased the game afterwards. I feel that piracy is a good way to get rid of shitty developers how make crappy games only for the sake of making money (Well all developers want to make money ofc, but i hope you get my point). Good developers get the money they need and then some. Piracy will not be the end of gaming.
...thats fucking bullshit lol.
Piracy will eventually change the video game scene alot though. Developers are accustomed to making shitloads of money, they will do something, like the OP said.
DLC, subscribe games, etc, are already becoming way more common
EPT
