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On December 02 2011 12:39 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal? There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal.
See, I'm glad you brought this up. My internet service, my computer, my electrons, and all of the electricity that I pay for, are my property, to do with what I will. Now what I might do, for a variety of reasons, is acquire a copy of some new song. If you try to stop me, you're limiting what I can do with MY property, and saying that my physical property rights are inferior to the intellectual property rights of the music industry. Is that right?
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On December 02 2011 12:40 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. Who says someone wont buy something because they pirated it? That logic is no better than what you're upset about. Piracy isn't defined as stealing because it isn't. You can try to word it as if it is all you want, but it never has been and never will be.
Who says they will? Every pirate tries to make themselves out as the "white knight" that never plays a pirated version for more than a few hours and then deletes/buys it, but that's maybe only 1% of pirates out there.
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On December 02 2011 12:43 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:40 Serpico wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. Who says someone wont buy something because they pirated it? That logic is no better than what you're upset about. Piracy isn't defined as stealing because it isn't. You can try to word it as if it is all you want, but it never has been and never will be. Who says they will? Every pirate tries to make themselves out as the "white knight" that never plays a pirated version for more than a few hours and then deletes/buys it, but that's maybe only 1% of pirates out there.
That's the entire point, you can't say they will or won't and act like a sale was lost. No pirates are trying to make themselves out to be white knights, in fact I'd say most dont defend themselves nearly as vehemently as you attack them.
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On December 02 2011 12:43 HereAndNow wrote:
Who says they will? Every pirate tries to make themselves out as the "white knight" that never plays a pirated version for more than a few hours and then deletes/buys it, but that's maybe only 1% of pirates out there.
Now I resent that! I'm doing no such thing =P
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On December 02 2011 12:43 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:39 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal? There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal. See, I'm glad you brought this up. My internet service, my computer, my electrons, and all of the electricity that I pay for, are my property, to do with what I will. Now what I might do, for a variety of reasons, is acquire a copy of some new song. If you try to stop me, you're limiting what I can do with MY property, and saying that my physical property rights are inferior to the intellectual property rights of the music industry. Is that right?
The data, the information of the game/song/etc, is copyright enforced. MAKING COPIES OF THAT DATA IS ILLEGAL. Passing around a single disc is not. The data is not your property, only the object that lets you enjoy it. The data is not yours, nor will it ever be, unless you take over the company. That's now this stuff works.
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You better not try and limit the use of MY hands and feet when I walk into your house and pirate the fuck out of your fridge..
On December 02 2011 12:43 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:39 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal? There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal. See, I'm glad you brought this up. My internet service, my computer, my electrons, and all of the electricity that I pay for, are my property, to do with what I will. Now what I might do, for a variety of reasons, is acquire a copy of some new song. If you try to stop me, you're limiting what I can do with MY property, and saying that my physical property rights are inferior to the intellectual property rights of the music industry. Is that right?
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On December 02 2011 12:45 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:43 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:40 Serpico wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. Who says someone wont buy something because they pirated it? That logic is no better than what you're upset about. Piracy isn't defined as stealing because it isn't. You can try to word it as if it is all you want, but it never has been and never will be. Who says they will? Every pirate tries to make themselves out as the "white knight" that never plays a pirated version for more than a few hours and then deletes/buys it, but that's maybe only 1% of pirates out there. That's the entire point, you can't say they will or won't and act like a sale was lost. No pirates are trying to make themselves out to be white knights, in fact I'd say most dont defend themselves nearly as vehemently as you attack them.
No, the sale is lost, and can be made up afterward. It's not in a neutral state, it's negative until they actually buy it.
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On December 02 2011 12:46 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:43 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:39 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal? There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal. See, I'm glad you brought this up. My internet service, my computer, my electrons, and all of the electricity that I pay for, are my property, to do with what I will. Now what I might do, for a variety of reasons, is acquire a copy of some new song. If you try to stop me, you're limiting what I can do with MY property, and saying that my physical property rights are inferior to the intellectual property rights of the music industry. Is that right? The data, the information of the game/song/etc, is copyright enforced. MAKING COPIES OF THAT DATA IS ILLEGAL. Passing around a single disc is not. The data is not your property, only the object that lets you enjoy it. The data is not yours, nor will it ever be, unless you take over the company. That's now this stuff works.
I'm not saying it's not against the law, just that the law ought to be changed. The problem is, as soon as that download completes, the data IS my property. At least the manifestation of it that resides on my hard drive. What you're telling me, is that the moment I burn a game onto a CD that I payed for, then that becomes owned by the corporation who produced the game? Don't be ridiculous. Let's compare this to a very real life example. I, Caveman Bob, create fire. I, Caveman Bob, place copyright on fire. You, Caveman Joe, are no longer allowed to light YOUR possessions on fire. How crazy is that?
The entire concept of Intellectual Property is a gigantic farce, and should be abolished.
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On December 02 2011 12:46 GumThief wrote:You better not try and limit the use of MY hands and feet when I walk into your house and pirate the fuck out of your fridge.. Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:43 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:39 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal? There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal. See, I'm glad you brought this up. My internet service, my computer, my electrons, and all of the electricity that I pay for, are my property, to do with what I will. Now what I might do, for a variety of reasons, is acquire a copy of some new song. If you try to stop me, you're limiting what I can do with MY property, and saying that my physical property rights are inferior to the intellectual property rights of the music industry. Is that right?
Hell, as long as my fridge, and all its contents, stays where they are, you can go right ahead
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On December 02 2011 12:37 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? I don't know if you are a bad person, but yes, you are a thief. It is not up to you to determine how a company should release their product. While I agree with you that "try before you buy" models are far superior, that is the choice of the company. Some believe that releasing a demo encourages people to buy a full game, while others might think it will hurt sales. You are taking that choice out of their hands via illegal distribution. And as for the whole "Ill buy it if I like it" argument, well, I don't have any numbers but my life experience tells me that that situation is microscopic compared to people who just keep the game.
I consider that companies without "try before you buy" models sometimes "steal" our money by hyping games and tricking people into buying said games. Sometimes they shove a lot of money in nice trailers, sometimes the previous games of the same franchise make it a safe hit. But those games can be unfinished or flat out bad. As PC gamers, we have very little recourse as retailers will not take it back and it's extremely rare for Steam to do refunds. As such, it's really hard to be protected against garbage whereas if you buy anything else, you can bring it back to the store when it breaks in your hands.
I bought Skyrim on release day, I woke up early to go pick up my copy. Thank god the game is awesome because it crashes every 30 minutes, enough to make me give up on almost anything. If I had decided that this game was broken (and it kind of is), I would've had to suck it up. I would have, in effect, lost $68. Like I said, very little customer protection.
Now, Skyrim sales were really good, but let's say Bethesda released a demo of Skyrim and it crashed a lot, maybe it would have hurt their sales. Maybe the game's demo would've outright sucked, which would've hurt their sales also. Maybe it would've been great, which would have actually helped their sales by generating hype. Confident companies that make good games release demos and have open betas. Companies which want to sell bad games, they don't want people to play the POS, that would generate bad press.
I'm not saying it's always like that, but it certainly does happen.
You say it's not up to us to decide how a company decides to release their products, and that type of mentality is exactly why you're kind of right. The "demand" part is the "supply"'s little bitch, and that's why we really should appreciate Blizzard for not yanking our chain like so many companies do. (At least not in that way)
Sounds like I'm saying "companies are unethical so I can be unethical too". Well I kind of am.
On December 02 2011 12:41 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:39 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. Don't be ridiculous... your idea might work for consoles and nothing else. -Not a single place will rent BF3 or any PC game for that matter -Buy and return is just shitty for the retailer and is dishonest, plus they won't accept a PC game return -Buy and trade is impossible for PC games and would cut the price you paid in a half if not more -My friends don't have every game, and some games are linked to steam accounts -Not all games have demos I fail to see the difference between borrowing from a friend and borrowing from a dude in the internet anyway, since I'm using it fairly, the end result is the same. I try the game and I buy it if I like it. So yes I take the easy way. Why the fuck would I not if the only difference is that in the end I won't make the mistake of purchasing a game I won't like? No. Borrowing and pirating are not the same, don't pretend they are. As for PC games, well tough, you can't rent/return it, but that doesn't justify pirating. I can't rent or buy a classic Camaro, but that doesn't justify stealing one.
Given the way I make use of the "pirated" software, in which way is it any different from borrowing? The only difference is the lack of a "friend" as a middleman.
On December 02 2011 12:47 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:45 Serpico wrote:On December 02 2011 12:43 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:40 Serpico wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. Who says someone wont buy something because they pirated it? That logic is no better than what you're upset about. Piracy isn't defined as stealing because it isn't. You can try to word it as if it is all you want, but it never has been and never will be. Who says they will? Every pirate tries to make themselves out as the "white knight" that never plays a pirated version for more than a few hours and then deletes/buys it, but that's maybe only 1% of pirates out there. That's the entire point, you can't say they will or won't and act like a sale was lost. No pirates are trying to make themselves out to be white knights, in fact I'd say most dont defend themselves nearly as vehemently as you attack them. No, the sale is lost, and can be made up afterward. It's not in a neutral state, it's negative until they actually buy it.
Their accountant is probably freaking out.
More seriously, consider that people who pirate games weren't necessarily going to buy it.
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Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly.
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On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly.
I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine.
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On December 02 2011 12:59 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly. I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine.
You are an insane person or just horribly misguided. The world as you would like it would completely stifle innovation in nearly every field of...well everything.
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Osaka27172 Posts
On December 02 2011 12:53 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:37 Manifesto7 wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? I don't know if you are a bad person, but yes, you are a thief. It is not up to you to determine how a company should release their product. While I agree with you that "try before you buy" models are far superior, that is the choice of the company. Some believe that releasing a demo encourages people to buy a full game, while others might think it will hurt sales. You are taking that choice out of their hands via illegal distribution. And as for the whole "Ill buy it if I like it" argument, well, I don't have any numbers but my life experience tells me that that situation is microscopic compared to people who just keep the game. I consider that companies without "try before you buy" models sometimes "steal" our money by hyping games and tricking people into buying said games. Sometimes they shove a lot of money in nice trailers, sometimes the previous games of the same franchise make it a safe hit. But those games can be unfinished or flat out bad. As a PC gamer, we have very little recourse as retailers will not take it back and it's extremely rare for Steam to do refunds. As such, it's really hard to be protected against garbage whereas if you buy anything else, you can bring it back to the store when it breaks in your hands.
Congratulations, you just described the goal of advertising in every industry. Make it look as good as possible. That is not stealing your money.
Look, you feel like you want greater protection as the consumer, and I can totally understand that. I have been burned by bad games too. But I don't agree with you that the way to go about it is downloading entire games / movies / songs so you can try it out. I don't think you have that right, even if you think it is fair.
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Surprises me how many gamers try to defend piracy. Today's society sure is selfish, or maybe it was always like this.
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On December 02 2011 12:59 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly. I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine.
Out of curiosity, do you realize that without any claims of ownership to IP, every single type of software would cease to exist, because there would be no benefit to making it. There would be no point to developing operating systems, so we would all be forced to use open source OS developed by some random guys with free time.
I'm not trying to be overly insulting, but the assumption that ideas do not have owners is ridiculous. Also, I forgot to quote the guy who torrented skyrim (hoping it's you), but apparently they thought the game was too expansive to be detailed in a demo. http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/07/14/there-won-39-t-be-a-skyrim-demo.aspx Considering the appeal of their game is the hugeness of their world and the replay value, it seems like a demo wouldn't be that impressive anyway.
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On December 02 2011 12:59 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly. I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine.
Okay, so you're just delusional.
Your notes example is not only misguided, it's downright wrong. The scholastic equivalent would be you saying that you feel that there's no problem with you copying someone's homework and submitting it as your own.
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On December 02 2011 12:59 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly. I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine.
I assume through your student references and your general stance on things in this thread that you are a student. You have never created anything of worth in your life that needs protection for those very people you protect, i.e. thieves. Your intellectual dishonesty astounds me and tells me you have very little experience of the world we ACTUALLY live in and human behaviour in general.
It's great to be an armchair philosopher when you don't have to deal with the world head on.
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On December 02 2011 13:05 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:53 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 12:37 Manifesto7 wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? I don't know if you are a bad person, but yes, you are a thief. It is not up to you to determine how a company should release their product. While I agree with you that "try before you buy" models are far superior, that is the choice of the company. Some believe that releasing a demo encourages people to buy a full game, while others might think it will hurt sales. You are taking that choice out of their hands via illegal distribution. And as for the whole "Ill buy it if I like it" argument, well, I don't have any numbers but my life experience tells me that that situation is microscopic compared to people who just keep the game. I consider that companies without "try before you buy" models sometimes "steal" our money by hyping games and tricking people into buying said games. Sometimes they shove a lot of money in nice trailers, sometimes the previous games of the same franchise make it a safe hit. But those games can be unfinished or flat out bad. As a PC gamer, we have very little recourse as retailers will not take it back and it's extremely rare for Steam to do refunds. As such, it's really hard to be protected against garbage whereas if you buy anything else, you can bring it back to the store when it breaks in your hands. Congratulations, you just described the goal of advertising in every industry. Make it look as good as possible. That is not stealing your money. Look, you feel like you want greater protection as the consumer, and I can totally understand that. I have been burned by bad games too. But I don't agree with you that the way to go about it is downloading entire games / movies / songs so you can try it out. I don't think you have that right, even if you think it is fair.
Well I don't really download entire movies and if I play entire games I paid for them 100% of the time. I plead guilty for music but let's not talk about it, I don't have arguments for that except good ole' argumentum ad populum, so nothing good.
1- Advertising is OK as long as it represents a product fairly, and sometimes it doesn't. There are laws against false representation of a product, but obviously those laws are and have to be defined pretty loosely, which allows for instance EA to make their latest POS Hockey game look amazing - but even if it sucks, the customers are screwed. However, they couldn't sell $60 blank DVDs. So there's a whole area between "shitty game" and "blank DVD" - how do we decide what constitutes false advertising/fraud? In this case, customer protection is not just a little important given how easy it is to shag us.
2- You said you don't think I have "that right", which is objectively true, but that's a law. You think that my actions are morally reprehensible, which I can't argue with... But what my "rights" are is of little concern to me. I could fly my ass off to some country and suddenly it would be my "right" to download anything I want. Who the hell cares about what bullshit congress comes up with, it's not a real standard of living!
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On December 02 2011 13:12 kurosawa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:59 refmac_cys.cys wrote:On December 02 2011 12:55 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Are you posting seriously refmac, or is this some sad attempt at satire?
You not being able to use the intellectual property of others however you please is infringing upon your personal rights? Give me a break. Your personal rights don't include being able to manipulate those of others. I'm sorry you misunderstand things so badly. I'm being completely serious. Intellectual property does not exist. It is a made up thing. Especially with more simple concepts (not so much games), the idea that you can claim ownership to an idea is ridiculous. The idea of internet piracy, when distilled to an intellectual property debate, is the same as a student sharing notes with a friend who's not in his class. Something like this should always be legal. I'm not saying that my personal rights include being able to manipulate the rights of others, I'm saying that others are claiming non-existant rights which infringe on mine. I assume through your student references and your general stance on things in this thread that you are a student. You have never created anything of worth in your life that needs protection for those very people you protect, i.e. thieves. Your intellectual dishonesty astounds me and tells me you have very little experience of the world we ACTUALLY live in and human behaviour in general. It's great to be an armchair philosopher when you don't have to deal with the world head on.
Just want to say don't assume something like that, its very easy to create "intellectual property". I am a freshman in college but have made songs and put them on the internet.
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EPT
