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On December 02 2011 09:51 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 09:40 H0i wrote:On December 02 2011 09:15 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 09:06 H0i wrote:On December 02 2011 08:54 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 08:43 uiCk wrote:On December 02 2011 08:36 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 08:27 XerrolAvengerII wrote:
I pirated witcher 2 and deus ex human revolution, and after playing some of those games I am hugely thankful that I didn't buy either of them, because if I had I would have raged my head off at how much they irritated me in terms of performance, controls, or mechanics.
Pirating is like free insurance for the gamer... if
A) game runs on the machine - respectably
B) game is also fun / not-irritating
then
C) buy the game...
Piracy protects the gaming consumer from bad game designers and distributors by protecting their money and allowing them to invest into the games and companies of worth! The gaming market has been crutching company names and flashy advertising to sell games, even when the quality has been slowly dropping. Piracy is an "abusable" tool that gamers should use to help them decide which game designers they want to encourage...
If you want more good games, you buy the games from good companies. Consider it natural selection to an extent.
And like i mentioned above, Piracy is an abusable tool, it SHOULD be used to inform gamers of quality... although, many people ABUSE it in order to keep unlicensed copies of software.
Nuff said. Piracy isn't a tool for anything, it's illegal and people need to stop trying to justify stealing. to copy is not stealing. It's not illegal everywhere, and who cares about legality? alcohol used to be illegal. now its legal. Is it bad or is it good? who cares. It's stealing IP. You're taking something that belongs to someone else without permission of the owner, and without paying for it. That's stealing by definition. You could hardly call a collection of 1's and 0's someone's property. But no, it is not stealing, because the original material does not disappear. The original material and the copies of it are copied. That's why it's called piracy, but you are still taking someone's property. And do you not understand the concept of intellectual property? I can and will call a collection of 1's and 0's someone's intellectual property, it's the entire concept of programming. I am not taking property. The property does not disappear and is not damaged in any way. I do not understand the concept of intellectual property. I understand what you mean with it, but I do not believe in it. What good does it do? How can intellectuality be property? I simply do not believe someone can own such a thing, but then, I do not believe in our "society" of today, I do not believe in it's workings and this idea of property is one of them. I believe in an enlightened society, and not in this one. That's all I wanted to say, I'm not going to continue the discussion because there is nothing left to say. Someone's hard work, money and effort has gone in to inventing that intellectual property. The reason they do this is to sell the use of that intellectual property for the purposes of entertainment. Think of Intellectual Property as if it is a service. You can pay someone to wash your car or mow your lawn. Technically they aren't giving you any physical "thing". Does this mean you also consider that not paying someone who provided you with a service to not be stealing? Do you consider it morally correct to not pay someone who provided you with their hard work and effort? With Intellectual Property (in this case video games) you're paying someone for the time, effort and money they have invested into creating it in return for the benefits (entertainment) of using that product.
Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway).
Anyway this isn't really what people should be focusing on piracy can't be fought with traditional means. Companies just need to find innovative ways to win customers back from the pirates.
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Osaka27154 Posts
Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.
Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway).
Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing.
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I'm very different from many of you, as I download games quite frequently. Honestly though, it doesn't hurt my conscious at all. I buy games which I enjoy with other people, and games which i would not, repeat, WOULD NOT buy in any circumstance (for example, skyrim or witcher 2), i just download. Sure, I may not deserve these games because I didn't buy it, but I don't care, and many others don't.
Having said that, once I have my own place and job, I look forward to having a physical collection of games that I enjoy, which I intend to buy.
You guys might not believe me, but im f0r3@l.
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Problem with Piracy discussion:
Very few realize that a pirated product does not equal to a lost sale. Not all piraters would buy either way.
A second hand sale is considered a bigger loss than a pirate since the game developers/publishers get no money and it's a sale lost for them.
That said I've bought around 8 games last two years, pirated 6 out of those. I don't buy a game unless I know it is good because I don't care if the multimillion companies cry as if they're dying, I'm a poor student and I deserve to know if the product I am buying is any good or not.
Do I think piracy is a huge problem? For some game companies yes, for the innovative and small businesses yes.
For the huge companies no, gaming has gone past movies in money for quite some while if I am not mistaken so there is no huge problem for the industry here. It's just money lobbyism most of the time. What is worse is that countries actually bend to their will and start chasing smalltime "crime" comitters and charging them for retarded sums. Thankfully it's impossible to be judged guilty of piracy unless you admit (or if you have the bad luck of living in a more police-like state, sorry americans but your law system rather condemns than frees a person [EDIT: By this I mean a law principle of where if doupt of guilt is present most western systems would rather free and let some guilty people go free rather than condemn a innocent, whereas some systems rather condemn more and some innocent to stop the guilty from going free]).
I think it should be illegal
I do not think countries should waste time and money on chasing piracy when there are so much worse crimes being committed.
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Corporations are the ones that need to get creative to stop piracy. Their whining and crying to governments are not gonna help because there is nothing they can do.
I personally have no idea what the corporations can do but I'm sure their 10 figure salaried bosses can come up with something more original then "Whaaaa-Whaaaa"
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On December 02 2011 11:45 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Corporations are the ones that need to get creative to stop piracy. Their whining and crying to governments are not gonna help because there is nothing they can do.
I personally have no idea what the corporations can do but I'm sure their 10 figure salaried bosses can come up with something more original then "Whaaaa-Whaaaa"
Civilians are the ones that need to stop getting mugged. Their pleas for mercy are annoying and they should just carry guns or something. /sarcasm. To be clear, game developers have tried everything from checksums and parity counts that test for game modification to infamous DRM protection. In the end, this results in glitches and problems for honest players, which is yet another way pirates affect the average game consumer. I agree that game developers haven't explored all their options yet but don't act like corporations deserve to be stolen from unless they can completely prevent it.
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On December 02 2011 11:28 noobcakes wrote:
I'm very different from many of you, as I download games quite frequently. Honestly though, it doesn't hurt my conscious at all. I buy games which I enjoy with other people, and games which i would not, repeat, WOULD NOT buy in any circumstance (for example, skyrim or witcher 2), i just download. Sure, I may not deserve these games because I didn't buy it, but I don't care, and many others don't.
Having said that, once I have my own place and job, I look forward to having a physical collection of games that I enjoy, which I intend to buy.
You guys might not believe me, but im f0r3@l.
First of all, t@lk1ng l1k3 di5 makes you look stupid. Stop it.
Second of all. Your logic is stupid. If you plan to play a game, it is worth your money. If you plan to pirate it, it was good enough for you to play, and therefore good enough for you to buy. If it's really worth the time investment to play, go spend money on it. It's not a hard concept.
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On December 02 2011 08:41 H0i wrote:
The internet allows us to share ideas, and piracy is just a name for the effect of this sharing of ideas on our outdated societal systems, monetary, economical, political, etc.
Unfortunately we still live with outdated systems that cannot keep up with other developments, so for now what we have to do is simple. Support those developers who deserve it.
Babby's first political post.
If you want to make a statement, don't play the games at all. The fact that you're going to play a game means that the developers know it's being played, even if you don't pay for it. As the OP shows, there is way to track those things.
If you're really worried about making a statement about what games you like and don't like, buy the games you like and don't pirate or buy the games you don't like.
Again, as I posted above, if a game is worth you playing it, it's worth supporting. Don't pirate it, play it all the way through, and call it shit. That type of action is the cancer that's killing gaming.
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On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing.
A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale.
If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad?
Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands.
Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening.
Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free".
Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material?
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On December 02 2011 10:52 nekoconeco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 09:51 Tektos wrote:On December 02 2011 09:40 H0i wrote:On December 02 2011 09:15 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 09:06 H0i wrote:On December 02 2011 08:54 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 08:43 uiCk wrote:On December 02 2011 08:36 Whitewing wrote:On December 02 2011 08:27 XerrolAvengerII wrote:
I pirated witcher 2 and deus ex human revolution, and after playing some of those games I am hugely thankful that I didn't buy either of them, because if I had I would have raged my head off at how much they irritated me in terms of performance, controls, or mechanics.
Pirating is like free insurance for the gamer... if
A) game runs on the machine - respectably
B) game is also fun / not-irritating
then
C) buy the game...
Piracy protects the gaming consumer from bad game designers and distributors by protecting their money and allowing them to invest into the games and companies of worth! The gaming market has been crutching company names and flashy advertising to sell games, even when the quality has been slowly dropping. Piracy is an "abusable" tool that gamers should use to help them decide which game designers they want to encourage...
If you want more good games, you buy the games from good companies. Consider it natural selection to an extent.
And like i mentioned above, Piracy is an abusable tool, it SHOULD be used to inform gamers of quality... although, many people ABUSE it in order to keep unlicensed copies of software.
Nuff said. Piracy isn't a tool for anything, it's illegal and people need to stop trying to justify stealing. to copy is not stealing. It's not illegal everywhere, and who cares about legality? alcohol used to be illegal. now its legal. Is it bad or is it good? who cares. It's stealing IP. You're taking something that belongs to someone else without permission of the owner, and without paying for it. That's stealing by definition. You could hardly call a collection of 1's and 0's someone's property. But no, it is not stealing, because the original material does not disappear. The original material and the copies of it are copied. That's why it's called piracy, but you are still taking someone's property. And do you not understand the concept of intellectual property? I can and will call a collection of 1's and 0's someone's intellectual property, it's the entire concept of programming. I am not taking property. The property does not disappear and is not damaged in any way. I do not understand the concept of intellectual property. I understand what you mean with it, but I do not believe in it. What good does it do? How can intellectuality be property? I simply do not believe someone can own such a thing, but then, I do not believe in our "society" of today, I do not believe in it's workings and this idea of property is one of them. I believe in an enlightened society, and not in this one. That's all I wanted to say, I'm not going to continue the discussion because there is nothing left to say. Someone's hard work, money and effort has gone in to inventing that intellectual property. The reason they do this is to sell the use of that intellectual property for the purposes of entertainment. Think of Intellectual Property as if it is a service. You can pay someone to wash your car or mow your lawn. Technically they aren't giving you any physical "thing". Does this mean you also consider that not paying someone who provided you with a service to not be stealing? Do you consider it morally correct to not pay someone who provided you with their hard work and effort? With Intellectual Property (in this case video games) you're paying someone for the time, effort and money they have invested into creating it in return for the benefits (entertainment) of using that product. Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Anyway this isn't really what people should be focusing on piracy can't be fought with traditional means. Companies just need to find innovative ways to win customers back from the pirates.
What? The developers spent more time building the game than the car washer did, so that's a load of crap. They put time into making the idea, developing the system, making the game, and marketing it. You are stealing that time and energy by not paying.
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On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material?
How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else.
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On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material?
Liking or disliking something you've acquired and used illegally has no bearing whatsoever. That's what demos are for.
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On December 02 2011 11:45 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Corporations are the ones that need to get creative to stop piracy. Their whining and crying to governments are not gonna help because there is nothing they can do.
I personally have no idea what the corporations can do but I'm sure their 10 figure salaried bosses can come up with something more original then "Whaaaa-Whaaaa"
It's not the bosses, but the employees that you need to be worried about. Programmers, developers, and artists get waaaay less salary working in the gaming industry than they would in any other job in their field. They take pay cuts to provide a fun game for you to play, and stealing it is just going to make them want to leave or force them to leave.
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Osaka27154 Posts
On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material?
I don't know if you are a bad person, but yes, you are a thief. It is not up to you to determine how a company should release their product. While I agree with you that "try before you buy" models are far superior, that is the choice of the company. Some believe that releasing a demo encourages people to buy a full game, while others might think it will hurt sales. You are taking that choice out of their hands via illegal distribution.
And as for the whole "Ill buy it if I like it" argument, well, I don't have any numbers but my life experience tells me that that situation is microscopic compared to people who just keep the game.
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On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else.
So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal?
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On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else.
Don't be ridiculous... your idea might work for consoles and nothing else.
-Not a single place will rent BF3 or any PC game for that matter
-Buy and return is just shitty for the retailer and is dishonest, plus they won't accept a PC game return
-Buy and trade is impossible for PC games and would cut the price you paid in a half if not more
-My friends don't have every game, and some games are linked to steam accounts
-Not all games have demos
I fail to see the difference between borrowing from a friend and borrowing from a dude in the internet anyway, since I'm using it fairly, the end result is the same. I try the game and I buy it if I like it.
So yes I take the easy way. Why the fuck would I not if the only difference is that in the end I won't make the mistake of purchasing a game I won't like?
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On December 02 2011 12:37 refmac_cys.cys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. So if I borrow a game from my friend, play through the whole thing, and return it without ever having bought it, am I doing something illegal?
There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal.
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On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost.
The potential sale is lost. That is why piracy is stealing. It isn't about a physical item, it is about revenue. That is why every time someone says "making a copy isn't stealing" I want to punch them in the face because the logic is so bad.Show nested quote +Piracy is not stealing it is copyright infringement which is a different thing. It would be more like if I went to an art gallery and took a perfect scan of a painting and then hung that scan on my wall saving me the money from having to buy the painting. The owner in this case loses nothing except a potential sale (although I may buy it anyway). Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing.
Who says someone wont buy something because they pirated it? That logic is no better than what you're upset about. Piracy isn't defined as stealing because it isn't. You can try to word it as if it is all you want, but it never has been and never will be.
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On December 02 2011 12:39 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:34 HereAndNow wrote:On December 02 2011 12:30 Djzapz wrote:On December 02 2011 11:07 Manifesto7 wrote:Not a good analogy since in that case the car washer is directly losing something from you not paying (in this case their time). Piracy is different since the owner loses nothing since it is a copy that is lost. Copyright infringement is taking someone else's material and using it for your own gain. Piracy is nothing like that. And there you go, the owner loses a potential sale. They lose money. You are stealing. A potential sale is worth nothing, it's just speculation about a sale. If I "pirate" a game only to find out that I don't like it, am I bad? Games I downloaded and deleted: Fallout 3, Fallout:New Vegas, From Dust, FEAR 3, Duke Nukem Forever, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Island, Borderlands. Most people will say that's reasonable, somewhat fair at least. However, did they lose sales from me? Well sadly yes they did. I would have bought at least some of these games if I hadn't had the opportunity to acquire the game "illegally" to test them. For instance, I was going to buy Fallout 3 because everyone likes it and plenty of my friends were telling me it's awesome. I "stole" it, played 3-4 hours and deleted it. But I think it's a good thing that they lost that sale - it really is. At least it keeps a few people from suckering into games they don't like... and try to get a refund for a PC game, lol, not happening. Now my question is, not necessarily to you Manifesto but I would like to know what you think, how wrong is it of me to do that, provided that if I really do like a game, I will buy it like I did with Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and such. On the other hand, sometimes I'll play 5-10 hours of a game I don't like so much only to end up quitting after I decide it's not worth my time. That's kind of a long time to play "for free". Am I a thief, a bad person altogether or am I at least somewhat fair in my usage of "illegal" material? How many times does this thread have to say it? There are many other ways to try out games without pirating them. Rent from multiple places, buy and return/trade, borrow from a friend, play demos. If you're too lazy to do any of that, you don't get a say in the discussion, you're just taking the easy road because you don't want to put time and energy into it like anyone else. Don't be ridiculous... your idea might work for consoles and nothing else. -Not a single place will rent BF3 or any PC game for that matter -Buy and return is just shitty for the retailer and is dishonest, plus they won't accept a PC game return -Buy and trade is impossible for PC games and would cut the price you paid in a half if not more -My friends don't have every game, and some games are linked to steam accounts -Not all games have demos I fail to see the difference between borrowing from a friend and borrowing from a dude in the internet anyway, since I'm using it fairly, the end result is the same. I try the game and I buy it if I like it. So yes I take the easy way. Why the fuck would I not if the only difference is that in the end I won't make the mistake of purchasing a game I won't like?
Read:
There is still only one physical copy. By you having it, he can't play it. If there was only one pirated version of a game out there and when one person was playing it, no one else in the world could, it would be a different thing. But it's not. That disc is now your friend's property to do what he will with. The data isn't. If he (or you) takes it off and gives it away, it's illegal. Only having one copy of it is perfectly legal.
No. Borrowing and pirating are not the same, don't pretend they are.
As for PC games, well tough, you can't rent/return it, but that doesn't justify pirating. I can't rent or buy a classic Camaro, but that doesn't justify stealing one.
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I can't understand it at all. Someone puts time, effort, and their own money into creating something..... Then you steal it.
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EPT
