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On November 06 2011 10:21 Steel wrote:
He should be sentenced, no doubt. For life? No fucking way.
I think he should mostly be under surveillance for a long time..
Yeah, because 'surveillance' worked so well for Elizabeth Smart.
To address another point, he got a higher sentence because he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children vs just molesting ONE child. If you don't understand these children can not consent to the act by law so every picture is a picture of a rape in progress.
Read John Douglas's books on predatory sex crimes. They all start as a 'fetish' then progress. There are hundreds of kids missing in the US alone, not all of them are blonde/blue eyed media attention getters.
These people are dangerous, period. Beyond rehabilitation for the most part. Whoever let's this guy go has to live with the consequences of letting him back into the general public.
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On November 10 2011 11:33 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 11:03 qrs wrote:On November 10 2011 11:01 r00ty wrote:
If you get off to CP, think about what had to be done to produce it... Get Help! If you accept all the horrible consequences just for your sexual pleasue, don't expect mercy. If you actively take part in it, go to hell.
If you are so sick you just can't help it and and are just not able to control yourselves, what to do? Let me put it like this: Was Jeffrey Dahmer certifiably insane? Damn yes he was! Did he still deserve to die? Hell yeah! Would he still have deserved to die if he hadn't killed all those people and instead had just downloaded pictures of the murders? No he wouldn't. What's wrong with you? Are you even trying to get the context? Ok, i didn't make myself clear enough. I wanted to point out, that if someone actually raped a child and can't help but giving into his needs, then to me it wouldn't matter how insane he was, he has to be removed from society. Had to edit sry. The context I saw was "If you get off to CP, think about what had to be done to produce it... Get Help! If you accept all the horrible consequences just for your sexual pleasure, don't expect mercy." That sounded like you think that something bad should happen (otherwise why would they need mercy?) to people who "get off to CP" and "accept all the horrible consequences", even if they don't produce it.
The part about "If you are so sick you just can't help it and and are just not able to control yourselves" was ambiguous: maybe in your head, as you wrote that, it clearly referred to not being able to control oneself from "actively taking part in it", but it could easily be taken as "control yourselves from downloading/viewing CP", which is how I took it.
If you expected me to figure out your meaning from context, you should have done a better job of separating the two different subjects that you were talking about.
Anyway, it's clear now.
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On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 10:21 Steel wrote:
He should be sentenced, no doubt. For life? No fucking way.
I think he should mostly be under surveillance for a long time.. Yeah, because 'surveillance' worked so well for Elizabeth Smart. To address another point, he got a higher sentence because he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children vs just molesting ONE child. If you don't understand these children can not consent to the act by law so every picture is a picture of a rape in progress. Read John Douglas's books on predatory sex crimes. They all start as a 'fetish' then progress. There are hundreds of kids missing in the US alone, not all of them are blonde/blue eyed media attention getters. These people are dangerous, period. Beyond rehabilitation for the most part. Whoever let's this guy go has to live with the consequences of letting him back into the general public.
You have an incredibly biased and uninformed opinion. Of course child molestation starts as a fetish, just like murder starts as a motive. Just because it has a starting point does not mean that the starting point always eventuates into the conclusion. Just because he is physically attracted to underage people does NOT mean he will become a child molester. You're diving into the realm of thought crime, trying to justify this man's life sentence based on crimes he DID NOT COMMIT.
There are millions of people around the world who do NOT act on their fetishes because they know it is morally incorrect to have sex with a person under the age of consent, regardless of if the thought turns you on or not. You cannot punish someone for their thoughts or feelings but only their actions. His actions in this case has been downloading pictures from the internet.
Given this action, he has not paid for/supported the child porn industry and yet you are equating downloading pictures of the crime as equal to committing the crime itself ("he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children"). He did not touch, rape or molest a single child, the people pictured in the images he downloaded are the criminals who did this. He didn't give money to or support the people committing the crime.
People aren't dangerous simply because of a fetish. It takes a certain sinister type of person to cross the line between fantasy and reality when it comes to this situation. Just in the same way that not every heterosexual person is a rapist, not every pedophile is a child molester.
By your logic, if I were to look at images of somebody being murdered, it would make me the equivalent of a murderer. Fucked up logic bro.
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On November 10 2011 11:01 r00ty wrote:
I shouldn't have written what i wrote, but i won't delete it. Maybe it gives people some insight. It's a topic far too complicated and serious to be discussed here normally and getting so personal was a wrong thing to do, won't happen again.
Just felt many people weren't taking the effects serious enough ("it's just pictures"), that was the main point. I did not want to say they all have to be killed, i just loose my temper a bit when thinking too much about it...
In fact (might sound crazy now), i also say the sentence for that guy is too hard. He needs help first of all. But i stick to my point of view, if they cross the line, they cannot expect mercy. Where to draw the line? I shouldn't be asked for obvious reasons.
If you get off to CP, think about what had to be done to produce it... Get Help! If you accept all the horrible consequences just for your sexual pleasue, don't expect mercy. If you actively take part in it, go to hell.
If you are so sick you just can't help it and and are just not able to control yourselves, what to do? Let me put it like this: Was Jeffrey Dahmer certifiably insane? Damn yes he was! Did he still deserve to die? Hell yeah!
NanaCry's post was really strong in deed and the post and the answers to it were one of the main reasons i wrote my story. He got messed up by getting shown a picture. How messed up must the girls be?
I agree with this post completely. The line you speak of would be actively taking part in it, I presume. Just remember that getting help isn't always easy. I don't want to sound like I'm in favor of this activity, but I'm trying to see both sides. NanaCry gave us a good example of how random stuff can lead to this, and that it's not all their fault. Still, thinking of the children, they must have been pretty fucked up by this.
Jeffrey would be a good example of crossing the line. Just because you're insane, doesn't mean that going out and harming people is any less wrong.
It would be a lot easier if there was a way for these people to have access to CP which didn't involve people being hurt. Someone brought up lolicon, but apparently it's illegal in most places as well. And maybe, in the future, our society will be able to accept the fact that these people need help, and that making them feel ashamed is counter-intuitive.
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As i said, i didn't make myself clear enough, hope no offense was taken qrs + Show Spoiler + Sorry for the "what's wrong with you" part
Also thanks Dark_Chill for getting what i want to point out and making it clearer.
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On November 10 2011 12:27 r00ty wrote:
hope no offense was taken qrs None at all.
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On November 10 2011 12:02 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:On November 06 2011 10:21 Steel wrote:
He should be sentenced, no doubt. For life? No fucking way.
I think he should mostly be under surveillance for a long time.. Yeah, because 'surveillance' worked so well for Elizabeth Smart. To address another point, he got a higher sentence because he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children vs just molesting ONE child. If you don't understand these children can not consent to the act by law so every picture is a picture of a rape in progress. Read John Douglas's books on predatory sex crimes. They all start as a 'fetish' then progress. There are hundreds of kids missing in the US alone, not all of them are blonde/blue eyed media attention getters. These people are dangerous, period. Beyond rehabilitation for the most part. Whoever let's this guy go has to live with the consequences of letting him back into the general public. You have an incredibly biased and uninformed opinion. Of course child molestation starts as a fetish, just like murder starts as a motive. Just because it has a starting point does not mean that the starting point always eventuates into the conclusion. Just because he is physically attracted to underage people does NOT mean he will become a child molester. You're diving into the realm of thought crime, trying to justify this man's life sentence based on crimes he DID NOT COMMIT. So, if I give you a firearm knowing you're going to kill someone with it. What happens to me? I go to jail also. I did NOT commit the crime, simply loaned a piece of metal to you and you went and did the crime. BTW, for someone so 'informed', murder is also a sex crime in some cases. Do some research before spouting on the interwebs on how much you know. As to a 'starting point', so you have a guy who is actively watching child porn, the next step in the progression is he gets his hands on a child and goes to town. I'd be willing to bet a months pay that those guys you see on "To catch a predator" have child pron on their computers, causation vs correlation I don't know, but still sick individuals that shouldn't be in the general mix without some kind of serious observation, but then again, that does not work either.
There are millions of people around the world who do NOT act on their fetishes because they know it is morally incorrect to have sex with a person under the age of consent, regardless of if the thought turns you on or not. You cannot punish someone for their thoughts or feelings but only their actions. His actions in this case has been downloading pictures from the internet. Therein lies the problem, watching this type of thing is an action that is in and of itself illegal. The production is immoral if not illegal (some countries have no moral structure). He did the act when he downloaded the pictures/video. And no, I don't have to watch you kill someone before I arrest you. You show your intent and you go to jail for attempted murder/rape/whatever.
Given this action, he has not paid for/supported the child porn industry and yet you are equating downloading pictures of the crime as equal to committing the crime itself ("he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children"). He did not touch, rape or molest a single child, the people pictured in the images he downloaded are the criminals who did this. He didn't give money to or support the people committing the crime. You are kidding right? Playing devil's advocate? If there was no profit motive, the stuff wouldn't be produced. Just because something can be downloaded for free does not mean money did not change hands at some point. There are entire trafficking rings that deal with kidnapping young children for this type of thing. I can download regular porn for free, so there must not be any profit in the porn industry, counter-intuitive logic there.
People aren't dangerous simply because of a fetish. It takes a certain sinister type of person to cross the line between fantasy and reality when it comes to this situation. Just in the same way that not every heterosexual person is a rapist, not every pedophile is a child molester. Again, having a fetish does not equate to anything. When that fetish is immoral and you act on it, in this case acquiring illicit material, then yes, it is a huge red flag that should warn someone. So you're saying someone who looks at a 10 yr old and is sexually aroused is 'normal' by any standard?
By your logic, if I were to look at images of somebody being murdered, it would make me the equivalent of a murderer. Fucked up logic bro Not being sick, but if you had some sexual response to watching people murdered, then yes, I'd say the chances would be very high that eventually you would progress to move violent interactions. Do some reading, you say it's fucked up, but there's plenty to back up my logic..
edit: As to the 'bias' in my post. I've looked at literally hundreds of criminal records. Want to know how many sexual predators had only one entry for a sex crime?
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And here we are in a forum about games which involve killing people... Oh shi-
And let's not start about the games that involve grand theft auto and peddling drugs.
Shouldn't we all be thrown in jail by that logic of thought leads to motive to action to crime?
AKA thought crime? So an angry look = OFFICER HE'S GOING TO KILL ME!!!1
Go live in East Germany already.
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On November 09 2011 09:37 r00ty wrote:OK, f**k it. So here's an example from the other side. First of all why is it so goddamn hard to talk about it at all? While writing this i was mostly thinking to just delete it and forget about it. This site is normally not the place to talk about it, but many arguments in this thread made me feel sick. I see pedos/near-pedos telling their story but none of the victims, so here it is. It's not well written i'm not a native english speaker and there's so much more to tell. It's just so complicated... And this is just my story. Every person is different. It got longer than i wanted, some stuff might seem confusing but i tried. I hope it's readable and understandable. I'll spoiler it. + Show Spoiler +I have caring great parents, was good student and overall a really bright kid. Working class household but the kids were always first as it's supposed to be. I was just crying a lot and still do and emotions and feelings are kind of a book with seven seals to me, just too powerful most of the time in both ways (hate/love). Also people touching me in any way was always a no-go until i absolutely trust them. Also heavy claustrophobia and some other stuff not nice to have. When growing up, problems were starting to get serious. I was just not able to understand myself. Why those strong feelings all the time? Why this strange behavior?
At the time i finished school (abitur/a-levels without ever learning, bright kid heh?), i started taking drugs. Weed only for the first years but others were to come. Finally i had something to soothe myself but as you can imagine it wasn't quite healthy on the long run. My behavior made it hard to find friends many people saw me as a weirdo, i guess and i can't blame 'em. Worst were the questions like "your quite attractive and so nice, why you don't have a girlfriend", ("you're so smart, why don't you make more of your life" became my favorite in the last years) and all that stuff. Good questions i also asked myself thousands of times. Why? I did not have answer so something must be really wrong with me. But what?
Then there was this evening. One of the evenings i normally really cherish. I was 23 at that time just started university (which i quit after a couple of months). Two of my best friends (of the 5 or so overall left...) and me just getting drunk, playing cards, having fun, me feeling normal. We started to wrestle at some point just for the lulz which ended in my best friend, who is a lot stronger than me, pinning me to the ground without me being able to move. That's when i was "triggered" (as i know now). I started hyperventilating, crying, every muscle in my body cramped and my brain just went nuts. He was going nuts as well, like "i'm so sorry, what did i do, i'm so sorry, what did i do? please calm down!". Second worst night of my life. That's when i realised there's something terribly wrong. But I was still not able to get it together, thinking for days about that and my whole life so far. I decided to kill myself in the end, because nothing made sense anymore. No "crying for help" shit just end it. I am a man of principles though and when i was ready to jump the train, the thought came up, that i cannot do this to my parents and my family. Better a failing son, than one who killed himself. (to all the smartasses who go like "if you really want to kill yourself you'd be dead").
So i kept on going for years without any destination just for the sake of staying alive. Changing my shitty jobs every year or so when people started coming too close asking those damn questions again.
Then there was this worst day of my life: Four years ago my brother beat my sister over something trivial. Violence never occured in my family and i was not willing to let him get away with this (family/best friends > all). When i told my mother i am going to beat the crap out of him, she told me i don't understand! After i insisted she has to declare to me why, or i am still going to beat him she told the story (crying): Family Holiday, he was 9 i was 5, a guy looked after us when my parents wanted an evening for themselves, you can put the rest together for yourself... Explained a lot. After first hearing the story i wasn't even thinking about myself and she wasn't speaking about me. I have absolutely no memory of it and already stopped caring about myself in general. I was just thinking about that *guy* (words can not describe the hate) destroying the life of my brother. But it didn't take long until it clicked.
I had to swear never to talk to my brother and father about this. I agreed with this because he's finally able to lead a normal life atm and i don't want to pull him back in there. Concerning my father, he definately would have killed the guy if he knew, so he doesn't. Should he know? I decided he shouldn't because he's a great dad (He's over 70, no need to put that onto him).
I can just be sure my brother was raped and i was there as well. What did he do to me? Should i be glad i have no memory of it? Would it help me to deal with it if i knew?
Unfortunately i was always able to hide my problems from my parents quite well. Maybe they never made the connection and i don't blame 'em. Or do they know and the guilt is just too much? The human mind does crazy things sometimes. Never talked to them about it, even after i knew the story. Always tried my best to fake that everything is OK. I am so damaged, even after knowing all this stuff it's impossible for me to deal with it and my strange behavior stays the same. Also i just cannot talk about it to anyone and still fake being ok as far as possible. This is basically the first time... I am 31 now. Well my body is, my mind clearly isn't. My second try finding a therapist starts soon. I really would like to be happy again, because killing myself is not an option for me. My case is kind of soft and it was enough to severely damage my whole psyche. What about children being molested over years or even by their own family? I don't want to imagine. That's also one of the things that keeps me going. "There's worse. If they can make it, you have to!" So why am i telling this? I don't know for sure. It helps that's one thing. The other is, i want pedos to know what they are doing to children. Too many people are way too tolerant in this thread. Yes perhaps many of the victims are able to lead a normal life, but if you risk to destroy someone just to fullfil your sexual needs, you deserve the worst! If you feel those needs, seek help! If you can't help it and cross the line or support CP in any way, you deserve to die in pain. I get a bad conscience from killing a fly, but if you are pedo who actually molested a child, i could kill you with my bare hands without feeling any remorse.
Unreal dude. I am seriously so sorry for what happened to you even though I dont know you at all. Thank you for sharing. Posting something like that on a community site takes a lot of (courage?) Cant find the right word.
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On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:
So, if I give you a firearm knowing you're going to kill someone with it. What happens to me? I go to jail also. I did NOT commit the crime, simply loaned a piece of metal to you and you went and did the crime. BTW, for someone so 'informed', murder is also a sex crime in some cases. Do some research before spouting on the interwebs on how much you know. As to a 'starting point', so you have a guy who is actively watching child porn, the next step in the progression is he gets his hands on a child and goes to town. I'd be willing to bet a months pay that those guys you see on "To catch a predator" have child pron on their computers, causation vs correlation I don't know, but still sick individuals that shouldn't be in the general mix without some kind of serious observation, but then again, that does not work either.
Because handing someone a gun is facilitating murder. This guy was NOT handing anything to the child rapists producing this material. And once again you're turning the issue in reverse. Child molestors (on "To catch a predator") of course they're willing to download child porn if they're willing to rape a child. What I'm arguing is that not every person who looks at child pornography is going to go rape children, why can you not understand that logic? A child rapist is much more likely to look at child pornography than a person who looks at child pornography is to rape a child. Saying this guy is one step away from raping a child is irrelevant, the FACT is that he HASN'T raped a child, and hence you're trying to have him punished for a crime he HASN'T COMMITTED. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?
On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:Therein lies the problem, watching this type of thing is an action that is in and of itself illegal. The production is immoral if not illegal (some countries have no moral structure). He did the act when he downloaded the pictures/video. And no, I don't have to watch you kill someone before I arrest you. You show your intent and you go to jail for attempted murder/rape/whatever.
And that is what I'm trying to argue, the observation of these images shouldn't be illegal - the PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION and PURCHASING of this material MOST DEFINITELY SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.
This guy didn't produce the material, so I don't know why you're telling me its illegal and immoral (no shit...).
Attempted murder/rape/whatever is SIGNIFICANTLY different to what this individual did. He did not attempt to rape any children, he did not try and kidnap any children, or anything along those lines. This situation is equivalent to that of thinking about murdering someone which, coincidentally, isn't illegal. It is when you take those THOUGHTS and put them into ACTION that murder / attempted murder becomes illegal.
On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:You are kidding right? Playing devil's advocate? If there was no profit motive, the stuff wouldn't be produced. Just because something can be downloaded for free does not mean money did not change hands at some point. There are entire trafficking rings that deal with kidnapping young children for this type of thing. I can download regular porn for free, so there must not be any profit in the porn industry, counter-intuitive logic there.
This guy didn't contribute to the profits of child porn distributors, he downloaded it from file sharing sites, he didn't purchase it. Do you know why piracy of movies / music is such a big issue with record and movie companies? Because people are getting their product and they are getting ZERO profit from it. It is the same with this issue right here, he's obtaining the child porn without giving any money to those producing it. The reason you can get regular porn for free is twofold.
1) Advertising earns the profit rather than the porn itself.
2) Samples to encourage people to purchase the real product.
In the situation of child porn, number 1 is irrelevant as if you're downloading from file sharing sites it is the file sharing site that profits from the advertising not the producer of the child porn.
Number 2 is partially relevant, but if he never actually purchases the real product he's still not providing for the producers of child pornography.
On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:Again, having a fetish does not equate to anything. When that fetish is immoral and you act on it, in this case acquiring illicit material, then yes, it is a huge red flag that should warn someone. So you're saying someone who looks at a 10 yr old and is sexually aroused is 'normal' by any standard?
And once again you're equating a guy jerking off in his room to that of a guy kidnapping and molesting a child. "Acting" on that fetish shouldn't be immoral if you're not contributing to the harm of anyone. Meaning, so long as you're not encouraging the production of child pornography through purchasing the pornography, and you're not raping children then in my opinion you're not doing anything wrong.
Likewise if you're aroused by seeing people get killed, in my opinion watching videos of that isn't immoral. When you start actively encouraging people to murder others to produce content for you, or you go murdering people yourself for you own sexual pleasure THAT is where it becomes immoral.
On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:Not being sick, but if you had some sexual response to watching people murdered, then yes, I'd say the chances would be very high that eventually you would progress to move violent interactions. Do some reading, you say it's fucked up, but there's plenty to back up my logic.
I'd say you're wrong. Pedophilia is suspected to be a LOT more common than recordable (because how many people in this society where it is so looked down upon would admit it?) yet you don't have millions of people in every country out there raping kids now, do you? And even if they DID have desire to rape children, if they NEVER ACTUALLY DID IT, what right do you have to punish them? You're trying to punish people for thought crime.
If I have desires to <commit crime: murder, rape, anything illegal>, should I be locked up for my urges, given there is no guarantee I will act on them?
On November 10 2011 13:18 weekendracer wrote:
edit: As to the 'bias' in my post. I've looked at literally hundreds of criminal records. Want to know how many sexual predators had only one entry for a sex crime?
And there is the bias, you're looking at people convicted of sex crimes. If someone is willing to cross the line and offend a child in that way then without a doubt they're also willing to download pictures of naked children. On the other hand, people willing to download pictures of naked children aren't always willing to cross the line into the realm of committing the crimes themselves. You're equating them as one in the same and that people who look at child porn are child molesters.
tl;dr
If it is not raping children or encouraging people to rape children in any way shape or form, why should it be illegal?
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tl;dr
If it is not raping children or encouraging people to rape children in any way shape or form, why should it be illegal?
Again, if it is indeed a child in the pictures/video, a child is being raped, what part of that seems beyond the discussion. If I in any way promote such actions, how would I not be guilty of assisting the person doing the filming? Again, you are assuming that no money ever changed hands. Even if it's not in the indictment/complaint, it does not mean it didn't happen.
To side with your view, looking at a child and going home and dealing with the sensations would be harmless. Acquiring pictures or video is crossing the line and shows a progression. Once a subject shows a progression towards the act is where the danger lies. Does that part make sense to you?
I'll make an assumption that you're still young. I've seen evil like you wouldn't believe. I believe at least one or two people have posted personal stories of how this destroys a person. Those people who did what they did to them started 'somewhere'. I'd bet it started with what the subject of the story was doing. That's the trail to my thinking on this situation, unless you can prove me wrong other than I'm a biased, ignorant, <insert non-informative insult>. I have the writings and case studies of 30+ years of FBI data on my side, along with my 11 years of federal experience.
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On November 10 2011 14:25 weekendracer wrote:Show nested quote +
tl;dr
If it is not raping children or encouraging people to rape children in any way shape or form, why should it be illegal?
Again, if it is indeed a child in the pictures/video, a child is being raped, what part of that seems beyond the discussion. If I in any way promote such actions, how would I not be guilty of assisting the person doing the filming? Again, you are assuming that no money ever changed hands. Even if it's not in the indictment/complaint, it does not mean it didn't happen. To side with your view, looking at a child and going home and dealing with the sensations would be harmless. Acquiring pictures or video is crossing the line and shows a progression. Once a subject shows a progression towards the act is where the danger lies. Does that part make sense to you? I'll make an assumption that you're still young. I've seen evil like you wouldn't believe. I believe at least one or two people have posted personal stories of how this destroys a person. Those people who did what they did to them started 'somewhere'. I'd bet it started with what the subject of the story was doing. That's the trail to my thinking on this situation, unless you can prove me wrong other than I'm a biased, ignorant, <insert non-informative insult>. I have the writings and case studies of 30+ years of FBI data on my side, along with my 11 years of federal experience.
I'll respond to each of your paragraphs
1st paragraph:
Yes in this case I'm assuming no money changed hands, but my opinion is that (ignore this case specifically) if money isn't changing hands it shouldn't be illegal for that reason. Someone jerking off to child porn that they haven't purchased and haven't produced themselves is in no way assisting or promoting child pornography. That is my argument. You can't say that "we don't know if money has changed hands or not so lets assume it has hence he's guilty."
2nd paragraph:
You could argue that going home and dealing with sensations is also a progression so why is it not illegal to masturbate while thinking about children? Because that is blatant thought crime. Take this as a similar example:
If police believe I have desire to murder someone, that is all fine and well they can't do anything about that. If I then go out and get my gun license and purchase a firearm, can they then arrest me? That is progression towards murder, but in NO WAY does it indicate that I actually will kill that person whom I desire to kill. It is not illegal to have desires to kill someone and then progress to buying a gun. You're still pushing the illogical idea that we should be punishable for our thoughts rather than our actions. Masturbation when you're looking at pornography rather than picturing it in your head is in no way any closer to molestation. Regardless, neither case guarantees you're going to molest children.
3rd paragraph:
I have close personal relationships with people touched by this issue and much much worse, it is ignorant to dismiss my opinion on the simple fact that you've seen evils and more so to think I wouldn't believe in the possibilities. I know what this can do to a person but you're completely ignoring the fact that the people posting these stories were the people who have been victims to the child molesters, not the people masturbating at home alone. I'm supporting FREEDOM OF THOUGHT. I agree that child molestation is horrid beyond all belief and that it seriously and irreversibly affects people, but you fail to recognize the difference between thoughts and actions. Your examples from your case studies and data have all shown that child molesters (the people caught by the cops, the ones included in your data and case studies) are all pedophiles but you have zero evidence showing that pedophiles are all child molesters. How do I know this? Because pedophilia is scorned in our society and hence these desires are often hidden from the public by those who possess them. Nobody goes out on the street singing "I LOVE LOOKING AT NAKED LITTLE GIRLS" or they would quickly get beaten or worse, killed. Pedophilia shouldn't be a crime, the fact remains that in modern society it often at times is. Child molestation should be what is illegal, because that is what causes the damage, pain and suffering of these victims.
Please, for your next post, separate actions and thoughts as well as pedophilia and child molestation, because in both cases they are vastly different yet you equate them as synonymous.
tl;dr
Pedophilia and Child Molestation are different
Thoughts and Actions are different
Actions should be the crime, not the thoughts.
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On November 10 2011 11:46 weekendracer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 10:21 Steel wrote:
He should be sentenced, no doubt. For life? No fucking way.
I think he should mostly be under surveillance for a long time.. Yeah, because 'surveillance' worked so well for Elizabeth Smart. To address another point, he got a higher sentence because he lead to the molestation/rape of HUNDREDS of children vs just molesting ONE child. If you don't understand these children can not consent to the act by law so every picture is a picture of a rape in progress. Read John Douglas's books on predatory sex crimes. They all start as a 'fetish' then progress. There are hundreds of kids missing in the US alone, not all of them are blonde/blue eyed media attention getters. These people are dangerous, period. Beyond rehabilitation for the most part. Whoever let's this guy go has to live with the consequences of letting him back into the general public.
Sigh, this is a joke. I am a forensic psychology major and we literally just talked about this two days ago. Most pedophiles won't ever end up actually touching a child. Of those that view child pornography 1 out of every 50 will actually go on to molest a child.
So no, you are wrong and stop spouting of sensationalist nonsense please.
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On November 10 2011 14:25 weekendracer wrote:
To side with your view, looking at a child and going home and dealing with the sensations would be harmless. Acquiring pictures or video is crossing the line and shows a progression. Once a subject shows a progression towards the act is where the danger lies. Does that part make sense to you?
I'll make an assumption that you're still young. I've seen evil like you wouldn't believe. I believe at least one or two people have posted personal stories of how this destroys a person. Those people who did what they did to them started 'somewhere'. I'd bet it started with what the subject of the story was doing. That's the trail to my thinking on this situation, unless you can prove me wrong other than I'm a biased, ignorant, <insert non-informative insult>. I have the writings and case studies of 30+ years of FBI data on my side, along with my 11 years of federal experience.
I believe in this case the progression is not sufficient to warrant a life sentence. The danger lurks, but is not manifested. Your logic of preemptive punishment is severely flawed.
You are allowing personal experiences to cloud your judgement. What evil you have encountered is not representative of the world at large.
You quote examples of people who started 'somewhere' and the progressed into further evil. But do you have records of people who actually stopped before crossing that line? I truly believe such a statistic will be grossly disproportionate to those who have actually crossed it.
There are people who might have such tendencies in their youth and yet managed to curb and rise above them. You are in effect condemning them before they have the chance to change for the better.
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On November 10 2011 12:06 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 11:01 r00ty wrote:
I shouldn't have written what i wrote, but i won't delete it. Maybe it gives people some insight. It's a topic far too complicated and serious to be discussed here normally and getting so personal was a wrong thing to do, won't happen again.
Just felt many people weren't taking the effects serious enough ("it's just pictures"), that was the main point. I did not want to say they all have to be killed, i just loose my temper a bit when thinking too much about it...
In fact (might sound crazy now), i also say the sentence for that guy is too hard. He needs help first of all. But i stick to my point of view, if they cross the line, they cannot expect mercy. Where to draw the line? I shouldn't be asked for obvious reasons.
If you get off to CP, think about what had to be done to produce it... Get Help! If you accept all the horrible consequences just for your sexual pleasue, don't expect mercy. If you actively take part in it, go to hell.
If you are so sick you just can't help it and and are just not able to control yourselves, what to do? Let me put it like this: Was Jeffrey Dahmer certifiably insane? Damn yes he was! Did he still deserve to die? Hell yeah!
NanaCry's post was really strong in deed and the post and the answers to it were one of the main reasons i wrote my story. He got messed up by getting shown a picture. How messed up must the girls be? I agree with this post completely. The line you speak of would be actively taking part in it, I presume. Just remember that getting help isn't always easy. I don't want to sound like I'm in favor of this activity, but I'm trying to see both sides. NanaCry gave us a good example of how random stuff can lead to this, and that it's not all their fault. Still, thinking of the children, they must have been pretty fucked up by this. Jeffrey would be a good example of crossing the line. Just because you're insane, doesn't mean that going out and harming people is any less wrong. It would be a lot easier if there was a way for these people to have access to CP which didn't involve people being hurt. Someone brought up lolicon, but apparently it's illegal in most places as well. And maybe, in the future, our society will be able to accept the fact that these people need help, and that making them feel ashamed is counter-intuitive.
An action being wrong and an individuals accountability for said action are different. If you are actually insane (Meaning NGRI, Insane) then you don't deserve to die because you are unable to appreciate the gravity of your actions. It's the same reason we don't execute retarded people. If I remember right with the Dahmer case he wasn't declared NGRI because the psychologist asserted that he suffered from a necrophilia which is a Fetish, not a mental disorder. I haven't read about it in a while though, so I could be mistaken somewhat there.
As far as our penal system goes. Retribution doesn't work. It just creates more recidivism. We should treat people, not put them in jail for retarded amounts of time to dehumanize them, that breeds recidivists. Let me reference one my favorite places to find out little fun facts, the lovely people over at cracked.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19489_5-terrible-ideas-that-solved-huge-global-problems.html
Number three. The problem with America is politically people still want retribution, and any politician who has the balls to point out how the death penalty is retardedly expensive (Cost roughly 6x as much to kill someone vs life in prison 1.2mil vs around 200k.) and serves no actual deterrent effect compared to life in prison, and that actually treating offenders and trying to not completely fuck them has a way better result economically in the long term, and socially makes us better people. We like to pretend we are more civilized then rest of the world and then pull this retarded shit.
Sorry if that's kind of poorly worded, I am tired as shit.
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You don't seem to understand though, these people are sick. Nothing can help them anymore. They're not even human beings at this point... oh wait...
If stuff like this could actually happen in most places, we'd be living in a much better place. Active places ready to help people, a society willing to change them for the better instead of helping them proceed further onto the path that the society doesn't like sound pretty good. Good job Norway.
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Hi all,
I'd like to share my story and ask you a couple of important questions. Now please read carefully before answering.
When I was in my mid-teens, I was a curious little brat and (since I was living in a country with legalized digital piracy at that point of time) I was downloading all kind of stuff from the internet. In particular, I downloaded a few pictures of murder, child rape and some zoo- and necrophiliac content. Whether anything of it arose me, I'd like to keep it for myself. Now the laws regarding Internet content have changed even in developing countries, and I am not downloading any non-licensed stuff anymore (even when I'm occasionally back to the country of my birth). I have also never committed or encouraged any crime (digital or otherwise), and sure as hell I'm not going to.
The questions are the following:
Did I do anything wrong, and should anything be done about me?
If nothing should be done about me, then how can anything other than having to pay a fine for illegal file sharing happen to the guy being put in jail?
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On November 10 2011 23:35 Alex1Sun wrote:
Hi all,
I'd like to share my story and ask you a couple of important questions. Now please read carefully before answering.
When I was in my mid-teens, I was a curious little brat and (since I was living in a country with legalized digital piracy at that point of time) I was downloading all kind of stuff from the internet. In particular, I downloaded a few pictures of murder, child rape and some zoo- and necrophiliac content. Whether anything of it arose me, I'd like to keep it for myself. Now the laws regarding Internet content have changed even in developing countries, and I am not downloading any non-licensed stuff anymore (even when I'm occasionally back to the country of my birth). I have also never committed or encouraged any crime (digital or otherwise), and sure as hell I'm not going to.
The questions are the following:
Did I do anything wrong, and should anything be done about me?
If nothing should be done about me, then how can anything other than having to pay a fine for illegal file sharing happen to the guy being put in jail?
It is not illegal to engage in an act that was legal at the time. But idiots with agendas will like it not to be so.
Aside from the damaged goods here, there's nothing wrong with you.
What idiot believes you are a bad person because of bad thoughts?
So a Micheal Jackson's murderer should be acquitted for having good thoughts/intentions when he OD'd Micheal to his death by that logic.
Fu*king morons from the planet WTF.
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This is just another ridiculous decision made by the American justice system. This doesn't even fit the completely proven not to work, "omg he must pay" retribution attitude Americans seem to have. This is just absurd. I'd argue pedophilea is even more hated than homosexuality was back in the day. It is very similar, nobody chooses to be a pedophile, and tossing them in jail for life for simply owning (not even spreading, or god forbid making) child porn is just beyond words; it is not comparable to child molestation or rape, it's equivalent to executing a gay person for looking at pictures of other (nude) males in a sexual way.
Mindlessly hating and forcing pedophiles to go into hiding and hide their condition will not fix anything, it's a disease and denying them any treatment and jailing them the second they admit to having this disease will not fix the problem. I don't condone child molestation but mindlessly throwing every pedophile in jail makes you no better than your grand-grandparents when they wanted to kill all the gays because they were "morally wrong and abominations of god", and it's exactly that attitude that's making pedophilea a much bigger problem than it should be.
Drugs exist that take away sexual urges from people, yet instead of giving them to people that need it because they were born with this condition we shun them away and turn them into bad people. Instead of helping people that have these urges like we help people that have suicidal or even homicidal urges, we tell them they're disgusting and throw them into jail. It's pretty amazing how everyone mindlessly follows what they're being told, no matter how hypocritical it is. Homosexuality is not a choice, but for whatever reason pedophilea is, and they have to pay for that choice, right? It's absurd.
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However hard it is for me to have pity on a man who takes pleasure from seing children being raped and thus being scarred for life afterwards, even I think that life is too harsh.
I have no pity on the man, but justice is justice, and he only drew pleasure from the rape, didn't pay, didn't commit any crime himself and generally kept his obsession to himself. I say he should be locked up for a short amount of time, and afterwards be forced to report his movement and be kept under surveillance. The thing is, while it IS "just" a fetish, it is a fetish that causes lives to be ruined from childhood, suicides and generelly egotistical and inhumane actions. This is NOT having a fetish for braces or shit or whatever.
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EPT
