On November 03 2011 04:35 MiraMax wrote: Reading this thread I saw posters who got beat when they were young and those that were not condemning this practice. Then there are people who got beat as a child condoning this type of parenting. This makes me wonder: Is there anybody here who never got beat as a child, but thinks that beatings with a belt are fine?
I've never got beaten by my parents when I'm child, only by teachers, and I'd condone punishment with a cane, not a belt. A cane delivers sharp, stinging pain, while leaving absolutely no marks on the skin and of course, no internal damage.
Caning must be delivered by experienced individuals though, and the reasons for caning are made very clear.
I've been caned by both my parents and teachers - each time I was caned, I knew exactly what was it for, and I remember them. I know that if I'm being caned, it means what I did was wrong. None of those swings stems from anger, and they are valuable lessons. It kept me from being spoiled. As I look back now, I don't regret those painful lessons at all; I learned it the hard way, but I learned it. The parents don't enjoy it anymore than the child, it hurts them mentally as well.
On November 02 2011 20:32 gameguard wrote: first of all you dont fucking hit a daughter no matter what... nothing can justify it.
For sons, it could be acceptable as long as its within limits. I mean you shouldnt go buck wild on an 8 year old because he stole a dollar from your wallet to go play at the arcade or something. But the most important thing is to make sure they UNDERSTAND why and that you love them. Dont leave them with a fucking grudge or something.
Personally, the few times i got my ass beat as a kid, my dad felt so bad that right afterwards he came with neosporin or something and talked to me about it. I could see that it hurt him more than me. Well.. since i was a immature kid, i would be thinking all sorts of evil shit, but after calming down a bit I could see that it was my fault.
But even for us asians, it will probably stop with our generation. Times are changing and you dont really need to resort to physical punishment to get your point across.
Resorting to causing PAIN to your child is a sign of a weak parent who doesn't know how to teach a child.
There are plenty of other ways to teach your child. As a PARENT, you should be trying to PREVENT any pain to your child. It's only natural.
EDIT: I missed your last sentance. I apologize.
/sigh.
Look, people are animals of above average intelligence. We do those activities that give us pleasure, and avoid those that bring us immediate pain. This is why no one knowingly sticks their hand into a fire but lots of people smoke. The whole point of punishment and corporal punishment in particular, is to condition people into not performing actions that are harmful (to the self, to others) but give immediate pleasure.
The role of a parent isn't to prevent pain. Its to turn your child into a productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks. If you think that that can be done by coddling your children, and sheltering them from any and all hardship, I hope you never have to raise children.
and operant conditioning and positive reinforcement has long since proven to be the superior way of training an animal and getting it to do what you want it do. That's why the professional dog training community condemns idiots like Cesar Milan - he's propagating the myth that pain and physical coercion leads to positive results. Pain leads to fear, it doesn't lead to an animal or a person cognitively dealing with a situation. Striking a child - whether it leaves bruises or not, whether it does physiological scarring or not - is bad parenting.
Causing pain to a child doesn't guarantee that it'll become a "productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks." More likely, it'll have the opposite effect. It'll teach the child that physical might makes right. It'll teach the child that fear produces results. That's actually amoral, in my view.The anecdotal thing you hear the most about when it comes to physical punishment of a child, is that the child doesn't actually stop the undesired behavior - they just learn to hide it from the parent.
The prime example of that is the video that started this whole thread. The girl didn't stop downloading music on the internet because her father hits her. She ended up resenting him - obviously to this day - and found a way to attack that person once she was safe from his physical attacks.
Corporal punishment does not work. It never has.
I'm reposting this, just because it's so brilliant
Wow you are one simple minded tool. Humans are not dogs. Training is not the same as teaching. Yeah I can teach my dog to lift up his palm when I say hi, but if I don't punish him for trashing the trash he is going to do it over and over and over again. And while the dog doesn't understand what the "hi" means, to him when you say hi and he lifts his paw up it means cookie and that is training, that is not understanding.
Now I'm not saying the only way to teach kids is by punishing them, but its one of the many tools you could use. I actually have found that parents who don't punish their kids at all, their kids are stupid, spoiled brats that cause all sorts of trouble and even when their parents start saying "jimmy sweety don't do that" the kids does it even more and the whole family kinds of gets embarrassed if it in public by how their kid couldn't care less about what they say to him.
O yeah I've set with such parents a lot of times and their kids are like wild animals put out of a cage and don't behave at all and when they start causing too much commotion and get on everyone's nerves and the parents try to control the kids they can't because he doesn't listen to them and they sit there embarrassed trying to make jokes about it, to alleviate some of their guilt and responsibility.
In fact when I see children outside yelling like crazy at 4pm when you are trying to relax and stuff, I know they have crap parents that don't discipline them, don't teach them.
But again spanking in just one of the tools you can use, of course beating a child and spanking it are two different things. There is a limit on that and I'm sure all of us have been beaten by our parents dozens of times as we've been growing up and do we all have scars of it, are we all depressed for the rest of our lives? No, because humans are not as weak as you make them out to be.
In this case I've already made my points clear and I won't be repeating them, but you sir need to broaden your scope of understanding.
Hi, I see you don't understand context. I brought up operant training because the poster I was responding to brought up how we are all basically animals. But to the example you brought up, there are a lot of owners who punish their dog for getting into the trash or causing havok who ever get any results from the punishment - punishment alone doesn't actually correct the behavior, it just suppresses it. If the animal understands that it'll only get punished when you're near, they'll just do whatever they're not supposed to do when you're not there. And you are the simple minded one if you think conditioning a child is that much different from conditioning a household animal. A child is much more governed by immediate desires than their ability to reason why they desire something and if they actually need and can reasonably demand the thing they desire.
I'm not saying that punishment in all forms is bad. If a child is unruly in a situation with other children and won't listen, it is perfectly fine to remove that child from the situation and give it a time out. Telling a child "no" and providing consequences is absolute the correct thing to do in many situations. But striking the child NEVER helps. It seriously doesn't. It never has - ever. It might make some parents feel better - and some parents might think that they get results by causing physical pain or discomfort, because they're misinformed. But it really doesn't.
Spanking/corporeal punishment is only a tool for people who don't know better. It's been proven in study after study that harsh punishment (which includes spanking) isn't guaranteed correct the undesired behavior, and in many cases it'll only make the child fearful, aggressive, depressed, anti social, cause lack of concentration in school, etc. The list of potential negative side-effects is long. So if it doesn't even work and it might actually cause more problems, why even do it?
Here's a few things I found through some cursory googling:
And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. I hopefully just helped you broaden your scope of understanding. You're welcome!
Hmmm. Interesting points. Although I don't agree with any of that research at all. I generally don't agree with a lot of research, because well, people lie, people are bias, and there are so many factors to life I find it hard to pinpoint 1 cause of something, like say lower IQ because of spanking. First off, their IQ was lower 4 years after being spanked, What was the stopping age for the study? 10? 14? 16? If it's above 12 sure it could have an effect on IQ possibly, that's an age where you can resent your parents for spanking you, my sister was one of those kids, thus effecting your studies. But I will also point out that IQ is not a level of true intelligence. It's a measure of 1 type of intelligence. Spanking an 8 year old because he pushed his little sister down the stairs makes that kid realize, hey, not cool for me to do this. Spanking a 12+ year old because they did something wrong probably will make that kid resent his parents. My personal opinion is that 12+ year old kids should be well aware of what is right and wrong, and you can use words to get your point across, words+groundings and what not. But a child doesn't know what is right or wrong, and can't rationalize it. Maybe my number of 12 is a bit high, maybe the correct number is 10. I'm not sure. But I do know that spanking your kids is perfectly fine as long as it's not an extreme. SOOOOOO many kids get hit growing up, and end up perfectly fine and intelligent. I am one of those people. Just because kids who may have issues later on in life were spanked, doesn't mean that is the cause of it.
On November 03 2011 05:02 IcariumJhag wrote: To all the people in this thread saying I got belted when I was kid, so it must be ok: It effects different people in different ways just because you got through it does not mean its good for others.
Its good for complete idiots who don't understand words and sympathy from good parents. Otherwise it's not necessary to spank them. You can just to be safe.
Personally I think almost no one in America has been spanked so they are really sensitive on this issue because they are wimps and can't take a little pain. When people say this is torture I laugh at them. If they think this is torture, I can show and simulate real torture on them, then I'd like to see them say that spanking even hurts.
Also the title is EXTREMELY misleading, she was caught pirating music and videos on the internet in the description of the video. As someone who is a judge, would you let your daughter get away with copyright theft? If you would, you are a horrible judge who doesn't even understand how laws work.If not then you have to make the decision to discipline her yourself, or send her to prison for the crime. Admitted he did take it too far, and should have stopped earlier, but her mother did the right thing.
Why do you need to get racist?
How the fuck is this racist? American isn't a race. You're just being ignorant.
On November 03 2011 04:35 MiraMax wrote: Reading this thread I saw posters who got beat when they were young and those that were not condemning this practice. Then there are people who got beat as a child condoning this type of parenting. This makes me wonder: Is there anybody here who never got beat as a child, but thinks that beatings with a belt are fine?
I've never got beaten by my parents when I'm child, only by teachers, and I'd condone punishment with a cane, not a belt. A cane delivers sharp, stinging pain, while leaving absolutely no marks on the skin and of course, no internal damage.
Caning must be delivered by experienced individuals though, and the reasons for caning are made very clear.
I've been caned by both my parents and teachers - each time I was caned, I knew exactly what was it for, and I remember them. I know that if I'm being caned, it means what I did was wrong. None of those swings stems from anger, and they are valuable lessons. It kept me from being spoiled. As I look back now, I don't regret those painful lessons at all; I learned it the hard way, but I learned it. The parents don't enjoy it anymore than the child, it hurts them mentally as well.
Yes I've been disciplined by my parents too, A LOT because I was retarded when I was a kid and did stupid stupid stuff. It was never the physical stuff that hurt tho, it was the fact that I let my parents down. Thats why I stopped doing what i did and manned uP
but that video isn't discipline. Its physical abuse and its disgusting. 100% I know what discipline is and that isn't it
I think there is more to the story to be honest. There is a rumor that she was downloading music illegally. If the IP address is traced to illegal activity, it will probably cost her dad his job, thus risking the families well being. This does seem a tad too far though.
On November 03 2011 03:42 idonthinksobro wrote: iam pretty sure everything shown in the video is illegal in my country. As is any beating,spanking,psychological abuse etc.
i seriously wonder how it can be that so many americans think this can be legal in their country. A little reminder this video was discussed heavily and she was accused of heavy child abuse in america. So how can anyone say what is shown in the new video is ok?
That so many people think its "OK" is actually a huge problem. The reason why we still have problems with child abuse is just because of people that think and say "yeah its not actually that bad" and "i was beaten when i was a kid and look at me i am a ... and it didnt hurt me at all".
I'm kinda shocked, not about the video but rather that people just dont give a shit.
Honestly I'm far more disturbed by this than the video in the OP. Actually you can't compare that kind of brutal beating to a meticolous psychological and physical torture administrated on a children. Both are unacceptable but I think what the child received was far more terrible.
Me too. This Dr. Phil video is many levels worse.
Yeah. Both are pretty sick in their own ways.
But I dunno though... I wasn't born in the States.. I was born in India, and beating your kids to discipline them is perfectly acceptable there. Its just part of the culture. My parents hit me a lot (and to be honest I probably deserved it in most cases..) I've had the hot sauce and the soap before (both only once.. I got the point very fast).. I've gotten hit by rolled up newspapers and magazines (omg these hurt soo much).. A hanger once (hurt the most). But mostly it was just slaps (would be okay if they didn't have fucking wedding rings on).. Never beaten hit by a belt thankgod (but have been threatened by belts many many times.. Dad has even taken it off to get the point across and then slapped me). No punching ever.
When we moved to California, it went down a lot (I was 9). I still got slapped on occasion, but mostly everything else stopped. One time I fought my dad down the stairs (probably the worst one I could remember as it was the first time, and only time, I fought back).
Personally, I think hitting is okay.. I'll probably slap my kids once or twice. But thats pretty much it. Mild hot sauce maybe. No were close to the level of the judge. The lady was fine until she put the kid in the shower. That was just torture.
What I said might sound casual, but I understand now that my parents did it with good intentions. And I really do think it did make me who I am today (currently 20). My beatings were NEVER not deserved.. I always fucked up somehow.. But to me this is just a part of being a kid.
What the Judge did is just way too much.
--
I'd really like to see several polls in the OP with people's opinions: 1. Were you were beaten? 2. Have or will you beat your kids to get them disciplined if they really fuck up? 3. Do you think its okay?
When I say 'beat' I mean not at the judge's level. Just slapping them or something. Or maybe hotsauce. Nothing too bad. And obviously on a rare occasion.. You gotta know when to fucking stop.
In the end though, I think it comes down to the kid's themselves (and the parents ofc). Beating should definitely not be generalized to every child. Some kids can handle it, some can't. My sister was probably slapped 3-4 times in her life. I can't even begin to count the number of beatings I've gotten. The parent should have enough sense to know when and who they should discipline like this, and should know that they cannot cross a line. After they do, its just plain abuse. Its not supposed to be torture, its supposed to be discipline.
On November 03 2011 05:02 IcariumJhag wrote: To all the people in this thread saying I got belted when I was kid, so it must be ok: It effects different people in different ways just because you got through it does not mean its good for others.
Its good for complete idiots who don't understand words and sympathy from good parents. Otherwise it's not necessary to spank them. You can just to be safe.
Personally I think almost no one in America has been spanked so they are really sensitive on this issue because they are wimps and can't take a little pain. When people say this is torture I laugh at them. If they think this is torture, I can show and simulate real torture on them, then I'd like to see them say that spanking even hurts.
Also the title is EXTREMELY misleading, she was caught pirating music and videos on the internet in the description of the video. As someone who is a judge, would you let your daughter get away with copyright theft? If you would, you are a horrible judge who doesn't even understand how laws work.If not then you have to make the decision to discipline her yourself, or send her to prison for the crime. Admitted he did take it too far, and should have stopped earlier, but her mother did the right thing.
Why do you need to get racist?
How the fuck is this racist? American isn't a race. You're just being ignorant.
Okay, why do you need to judge people based on where they live? Better? Maybe you should stop being so anxious to pick fights and bash people.
On November 02 2011 20:32 gameguard wrote: first of all you dont fucking hit a daughter no matter what... nothing can justify it.
For sons, it could be acceptable as long as its within limits. I mean you shouldnt go buck wild on an 8 year old because he stole a dollar from your wallet to go play at the arcade or something. But the most important thing is to make sure they UNDERSTAND why and that you love them. Dont leave them with a fucking grudge or something.
Personally, the few times i got my ass beat as a kid, my dad felt so bad that right afterwards he came with neosporin or something and talked to me about it. I could see that it hurt him more than me. Well.. since i was a immature kid, i would be thinking all sorts of evil shit, but after calming down a bit I could see that it was my fault.
But even for us asians, it will probably stop with our generation. Times are changing and you dont really need to resort to physical punishment to get your point across.
Resorting to causing PAIN to your child is a sign of a weak parent who doesn't know how to teach a child.
There are plenty of other ways to teach your child. As a PARENT, you should be trying to PREVENT any pain to your child. It's only natural.
EDIT: I missed your last sentance. I apologize.
/sigh.
Look, people are animals of above average intelligence. We do those activities that give us pleasure, and avoid those that bring us immediate pain. This is why no one knowingly sticks their hand into a fire but lots of people smoke. The whole point of punishment and corporal punishment in particular, is to condition people into not performing actions that are harmful (to the self, to others) but give immediate pleasure.
The role of a parent isn't to prevent pain. Its to turn your child into a productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks. If you think that that can be done by coddling your children, and sheltering them from any and all hardship, I hope you never have to raise children.
and operant conditioning and positive reinforcement has long since proven to be the superior way of training an animal and getting it to do what you want it do. That's why the professional dog training community condemns idiots like Cesar Milan - he's propagating the myth that pain and physical coercion leads to positive results. Pain leads to fear, it doesn't lead to an animal or a person cognitively dealing with a situation. Striking a child - whether it leaves bruises or not, whether it does physiological scarring or not - is bad parenting.
Causing pain to a child doesn't guarantee that it'll become a "productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks." More likely, it'll have the opposite effect. It'll teach the child that physical might makes right. It'll teach the child that fear produces results. That's actually amoral, in my view.The anecdotal thing you hear the most about when it comes to physical punishment of a child, is that the child doesn't actually stop the undesired behavior - they just learn to hide it from the parent.
The prime example of that is the video that started this whole thread. The girl didn't stop downloading music on the internet because her father hits her. She ended up resenting him - obviously to this day - and found a way to attack that person once she was safe from his physical attacks.
Wow you are one simple minded tool. Humans are not dogs. Training is not the same as teaching. Yeah I can teach my dog to lift up his palm when I say hi, but if I don't punish him for trashing the trash he is going to do it over and over and over again. And while the dog doesn't understand what the "hi" means, to him when you say hi and he lifts his paw up it means cookie and that is training, that is not understanding.
Now I'm not saying the only way to teach kids is by punishing them, but its one of the many tools you could use. I actually have found that parents who don't punish their kids at all, their kids are stupid, spoiled brats that cause all sorts of trouble and even when their parents start saying "jimmy sweety don't do that" the kids does it even more and the whole family kinds of gets embarrassed if it in public by how their kid couldn't care less about what they say to him.
O yeah I've set with such parents a lot of times and their kids are like wild animals put out of a cage and don't behave at all and when they start causing too much commotion and get on everyone's nerves and the parents try to control the kids they can't because he doesn't listen to them and they sit there embarrassed trying to make jokes about it, to alleviate some of their guilt and responsibility.
In fact when I see children outside yelling like crazy at 4pm when you are trying to relax and stuff, I know they have crap parents that don't discipline them, don't teach them.
But again spanking in just one of the tools you can use, of course beating a child and spanking it are two different things. There is a limit on that and I'm sure all of us have been beaten by our parents dozens of times as we've been growing up and do we all have scars of it, are we all depressed for the rest of our lives? No, because humans are not as weak as you make them out to be.
In this case I've already made my points clear and I won't be repeating them, but you sir need to broaden your scope of understanding.
Hi, I see you don't understand context. I brought up operant training because the poster I was responding to brought up how we are all basically animals. But to the example you brought up, there are a lot of owners who punish their dog for getting into the trash or causing havok who ever get any results from the punishment - punishment alone doesn't actually correct the behavior, it just suppresses it. If the animal understands that it'll only get punished when you're near, they'll just do whatever they're not supposed to do when you're not there. And you are the simple minded one if you think conditioning a child is that much different from conditioning a household animal. A child is much more governed by immediate desires than their ability to reason why they desire something and if they actually need and can reasonably demand the thing they desire.
I'm not saying that punishment in all forms is bad. If a child is unruly in a situation with other children and won't listen, it is perfectly fine to remove that child from the situation and give it a time out. Telling a child "no" and providing consequences is absolute the correct thing to do in many situations. But striking the child NEVER helps. It seriously doesn't. It never has - ever. It might make some parents feel better - and some parents might think that they get results by causing physical pain or discomfort, because they're misinformed. But it really doesn't.
Spanking/corporeal punishment is only a tool for people who don't know better. It's been proven in study after study that harsh punishment (which includes spanking) isn't guaranteed correct the undesired behavior, and in many cases it'll only make the child fearful, aggressive, depressed, anti social, cause lack of concentration in school, etc. The list of potential negative side-effects is long. So if it doesn't even work and it might actually cause more problems, why even do it?
Here's a few things I found through some cursory googling:
And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. I hopefully just helped you broaden your scope of understanding. You're welcome!
Although I don't agree with any of that research at all. I generally don't agree with a lot of research, because well, people lie, people are bias,
if it's a professional study they will have accounted for these kinds of things. If you're not an expert in the field, you're not one to legitimately disregard the research. If you don't trust science, that's your problem.
I am totally disgusted and shocked by that video. I was disciplined by my parents as well, but that is not discipline. That is just wrong on so many levels. Sad world... I hope he will never be able to harm anyone again like that.
On November 02 2011 20:32 gameguard wrote: first of all you dont fucking hit a daughter no matter what... nothing can justify it.
For sons, it could be acceptable as long as its within limits. I mean you shouldnt go buck wild on an 8 year old because he stole a dollar from your wallet to go play at the arcade or something. But the most important thing is to make sure they UNDERSTAND why and that you love them. Dont leave them with a fucking grudge or something.
Personally, the few times i got my ass beat as a kid, my dad felt so bad that right afterwards he came with neosporin or something and talked to me about it. I could see that it hurt him more than me. Well.. since i was a immature kid, i would be thinking all sorts of evil shit, but after calming down a bit I could see that it was my fault.
But even for us asians, it will probably stop with our generation. Times are changing and you dont really need to resort to physical punishment to get your point across.
Resorting to causing PAIN to your child is a sign of a weak parent who doesn't know how to teach a child.
There are plenty of other ways to teach your child. As a PARENT, you should be trying to PREVENT any pain to your child. It's only natural.
EDIT: I missed your last sentance. I apologize.
/sigh.
Look, people are animals of above average intelligence. We do those activities that give us pleasure, and avoid those that bring us immediate pain. This is why no one knowingly sticks their hand into a fire but lots of people smoke. The whole point of punishment and corporal punishment in particular, is to condition people into not performing actions that are harmful (to the self, to others) but give immediate pleasure.
The role of a parent isn't to prevent pain. Its to turn your child into a productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks. If you think that that can be done by coddling your children, and sheltering them from any and all hardship, I hope you never have to raise children.
and operant conditioning and positive reinforcement has long since proven to be the superior way of training an animal and getting it to do what you want it do. That's why the professional dog training community condemns idiots like Cesar Milan - he's propagating the myth that pain and physical coercion leads to positive results. Pain leads to fear, it doesn't lead to an animal or a person cognitively dealing with a situation. Striking a child - whether it leaves bruises or not, whether it does physiological scarring or not - is bad parenting.
Causing pain to a child doesn't guarantee that it'll become a "productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks." More likely, it'll have the opposite effect. It'll teach the child that physical might makes right. It'll teach the child that fear produces results. That's actually amoral, in my view.The anecdotal thing you hear the most about when it comes to physical punishment of a child, is that the child doesn't actually stop the undesired behavior - they just learn to hide it from the parent.
The prime example of that is the video that started this whole thread. The girl didn't stop downloading music on the internet because her father hits her. She ended up resenting him - obviously to this day - and found a way to attack that person once she was safe from his physical attacks.
Wow you are one simple minded tool. Humans are not dogs. Training is not the same as teaching. Yeah I can teach my dog to lift up his palm when I say hi, but if I don't punish him for trashing the trash he is going to do it over and over and over again. And while the dog doesn't understand what the "hi" means, to him when you say hi and he lifts his paw up it means cookie and that is training, that is not understanding.
Now I'm not saying the only way to teach kids is by punishing them, but its one of the many tools you could use. I actually have found that parents who don't punish their kids at all, their kids are stupid, spoiled brats that cause all sorts of trouble and even when their parents start saying "jimmy sweety don't do that" the kids does it even more and the whole family kinds of gets embarrassed if it in public by how their kid couldn't care less about what they say to him.
O yeah I've set with such parents a lot of times and their kids are like wild animals put out of a cage and don't behave at all and when they start causing too much commotion and get on everyone's nerves and the parents try to control the kids they can't because he doesn't listen to them and they sit there embarrassed trying to make jokes about it, to alleviate some of their guilt and responsibility.
In fact when I see children outside yelling like crazy at 4pm when you are trying to relax and stuff, I know they have crap parents that don't discipline them, don't teach them.
But again spanking in just one of the tools you can use, of course beating a child and spanking it are two different things. There is a limit on that and I'm sure all of us have been beaten by our parents dozens of times as we've been growing up and do we all have scars of it, are we all depressed for the rest of our lives? No, because humans are not as weak as you make them out to be.
In this case I've already made my points clear and I won't be repeating them, but you sir need to broaden your scope of understanding.
Hi, I see you don't understand context. I brought up operant training because the poster I was responding to brought up how we are all basically animals. But to the example you brought up, there are a lot of owners who punish their dog for getting into the trash or causing havok who ever get any results from the punishment - punishment alone doesn't actually correct the behavior, it just suppresses it. If the animal understands that it'll only get punished when you're near, they'll just do whatever they're not supposed to do when you're not there. And you are the simple minded one if you think conditioning a child is that much different from conditioning a household animal. A child is much more governed by immediate desires than their ability to reason why they desire something and if they actually need and can reasonably demand the thing they desire.
I'm not saying that punishment in all forms is bad. If a child is unruly in a situation with other children and won't listen, it is perfectly fine to remove that child from the situation and give it a time out. Telling a child "no" and providing consequences is absolute the correct thing to do in many situations. But striking the child NEVER helps. It seriously doesn't. It never has - ever. It might make some parents feel better - and some parents might think that they get results by causing physical pain or discomfort, because they're misinformed. But it really doesn't.
Spanking/corporeal punishment is only a tool for people who don't know better. It's been proven in study after study that harsh punishment (which includes spanking) isn't guaranteed correct the undesired behavior, and in many cases it'll only make the child fearful, aggressive, depressed, anti social, cause lack of concentration in school, etc. The list of potential negative side-effects is long. So if it doesn't even work and it might actually cause more problems, why even do it?
Here's a few things I found through some cursory googling:
And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. I hopefully just helped you broaden your scope of understanding. You're welcome!
Hmmm. Interesting points. Although I don't agree with any of that research at all. I generally don't agree with a lot of research, because well, people lie, people are bias, and there are so many factors to life I find it hard to pinpoint 1 cause of something, like say lower IQ because of spanking. First off, their IQ was lower 4 years after being spanked, What was the stopping age for the study? 10? 14? 16? If it's above 12 sure it could have an effect on IQ possibly, that's an age where you can resent your parents for spanking you, my sister was one of those kids, thus effecting your studies. But I will also point out that IQ is not a level of true intelligence. It's a measure of 1 type of intelligence. Spanking an 8 year old because he pushed his little sister down the stairs makes that kid realize, hey, not cool for me to do this. Spanking a 12+ year old because they did something wrong probably will make that kid resent his parents. My personal opinion is that 12+ year old kids should be well aware of what is right and wrong, and you can use words to get your point across, words+groundings and what not. But a child doesn't know what is right or wrong, and can't rationalize it. Maybe my number of 12 is a bit high, maybe the correct number is 10. I'm not sure. But I do know that spanking your kids is perfectly fine as long as it's not an extreme. SOOOOOO many kids get hit growing up, and end up perfectly fine and intelligent. I am one of those people. Just because kids who may have issues later on in life were spanked, doesn't mean that is the cause of it.
u make a fair point about the research but please don't forget this isn't just any parent this guy is an elected judge in family law. who needs to make professional decisions about custody etc involving child abuse on a daily basis.
On November 03 2011 04:14 Vehemus wrote: I don't feel any sympathy for a sixteen year old girl in this situation. If she had listened to her parents, it wouldn't have happened at all. And if she had taken her whipping like she was asked to, none of this would have happened either. It's a little odd to still be giving spankings when someone's sixteen years old; but clearly this girl just wants to do whatever she wants and doesn't care what her parents tell her. And her father, being a judge, clearly has a very strong sense of what he believes is justice.
Getting hit with a belt on the ass isn't going to do anything but sting for a little while, and at worst swell up and leave a red mark. It's not going to cause any permanent damage at all, and while I don't agree with him swiping at her legs and hitting her over and over again, she should have just fucking listened and taken her spanking for clearly blatantly disobeying what her parents told her.
The second video is extremely disturbing. The child is extremely young and is still learning right from wrong. Making someone stand in a cold shower or hold hot sauce in their mouth is brutal, and is far more psychologically damaging than having to bend over and take a spanking, especially considering the age of the child. A sixteen year old knows the difference between right and wrong entirely.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
If it was one whip or something I would probably side with you vehemus. But this is just torture. He doesn't fucking know when to stop.
On November 02 2011 20:32 gameguard wrote: first of all you dont fucking hit a daughter no matter what... nothing can justify it.
For sons, it could be acceptable as long as its within limits. I mean you shouldnt go buck wild on an 8 year old because he stole a dollar from your wallet to go play at the arcade or something. But the most important thing is to make sure they UNDERSTAND why and that you love them. Dont leave them with a fucking grudge or something.
Personally, the few times i got my ass beat as a kid, my dad felt so bad that right afterwards he came with neosporin or something and talked to me about it. I could see that it hurt him more than me. Well.. since i was a immature kid, i would be thinking all sorts of evil shit, but after calming down a bit I could see that it was my fault.
But even for us asians, it will probably stop with our generation. Times are changing and you dont really need to resort to physical punishment to get your point across.
Resorting to causing PAIN to your child is a sign of a weak parent who doesn't know how to teach a child.
There are plenty of other ways to teach your child. As a PARENT, you should be trying to PREVENT any pain to your child. It's only natural.
EDIT: I missed your last sentance. I apologize.
/sigh.
Look, people are animals of above average intelligence. We do those activities that give us pleasure, and avoid those that bring us immediate pain. This is why no one knowingly sticks their hand into a fire but lots of people smoke. The whole point of punishment and corporal punishment in particular, is to condition people into not performing actions that are harmful (to the self, to others) but give immediate pleasure.
The role of a parent isn't to prevent pain. Its to turn your child into a productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks. If you think that that can be done by coddling your children, and sheltering them from any and all hardship, I hope you never have to raise children.
and operant conditioning and positive reinforcement has long since proven to be the superior way of training an animal and getting it to do what you want it do. That's why the professional dog training community condemns idiots like Cesar Milan - he's propagating the myth that pain and physical coercion leads to positive results. Pain leads to fear, it doesn't lead to an animal or a person cognitively dealing with a situation. Striking a child - whether it leaves bruises or not, whether it does physiological scarring or not - is bad parenting.
Causing pain to a child doesn't guarantee that it'll become a "productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks." More likely, it'll have the opposite effect. It'll teach the child that physical might makes right. It'll teach the child that fear produces results. That's actually amoral, in my view.The anecdotal thing you hear the most about when it comes to physical punishment of a child, is that the child doesn't actually stop the undesired behavior - they just learn to hide it from the parent.
The prime example of that is the video that started this whole thread. The girl didn't stop downloading music on the internet because her father hits her. She ended up resenting him - obviously to this day - and found a way to attack that person once she was safe from his physical attacks.
Wow you are one simple minded tool. Humans are not dogs. Training is not the same as teaching. Yeah I can teach my dog to lift up his palm when I say hi, but if I don't punish him for trashing the trash he is going to do it over and over and over again. And while the dog doesn't understand what the "hi" means, to him when you say hi and he lifts his paw up it means cookie and that is training, that is not understanding.
Now I'm not saying the only way to teach kids is by punishing them, but its one of the many tools you could use. I actually have found that parents who don't punish their kids at all, their kids are stupid, spoiled brats that cause all sorts of trouble and even when their parents start saying "jimmy sweety don't do that" the kids does it even more and the whole family kinds of gets embarrassed if it in public by how their kid couldn't care less about what they say to him.
O yeah I've set with such parents a lot of times and their kids are like wild animals put out of a cage and don't behave at all and when they start causing too much commotion and get on everyone's nerves and the parents try to control the kids they can't because he doesn't listen to them and they sit there embarrassed trying to make jokes about it, to alleviate some of their guilt and responsibility.
In fact when I see children outside yelling like crazy at 4pm when you are trying to relax and stuff, I know they have crap parents that don't discipline them, don't teach them.
But again spanking in just one of the tools you can use, of course beating a child and spanking it are two different things. There is a limit on that and I'm sure all of us have been beaten by our parents dozens of times as we've been growing up and do we all have scars of it, are we all depressed for the rest of our lives? No, because humans are not as weak as you make them out to be.
In this case I've already made my points clear and I won't be repeating them, but you sir need to broaden your scope of understanding.
Hi, I see you don't understand context. I brought up operant training because the poster I was responding to brought up how we are all basically animals. But to the example you brought up, there are a lot of owners who punish their dog for getting into the trash or causing havok who ever get any results from the punishment - punishment alone doesn't actually correct the behavior, it just suppresses it. If the animal understands that it'll only get punished when you're near, they'll just do whatever they're not supposed to do when you're not there. And you are the simple minded one if you think conditioning a child is that much different from conditioning a household animal. A child is much more governed by immediate desires than their ability to reason why they desire something and if they actually need and can reasonably demand the thing they desire.
I'm not saying that punishment in all forms is bad. If a child is unruly in a situation with other children and won't listen, it is perfectly fine to remove that child from the situation and give it a time out. Telling a child "no" and providing consequences is absolute the correct thing to do in many situations. But striking the child NEVER helps. It seriously doesn't. It never has - ever. It might make some parents feel better - and some parents might think that they get results by causing physical pain or discomfort, because they're misinformed. But it really doesn't.
Spanking/corporeal punishment is only a tool for people who don't know better. It's been proven in study after study that harsh punishment (which includes spanking) isn't guaranteed correct the undesired behavior, and in many cases it'll only make the child fearful, aggressive, depressed, anti social, cause lack of concentration in school, etc. The list of potential negative side-effects is long. So if it doesn't even work and it might actually cause more problems, why even do it?
Here's a few things I found through some cursory googling:
And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. I hopefully just helped you broaden your scope of understanding. You're welcome!
Hmmm. Interesting points. Although I don't agree with any of that research at all. I generally don't agree with a lot of research, because well, people lie, people are bias, and there are so many factors to life I find it hard to pinpoint 1 cause of something, like say lower IQ because of spanking. First off, their IQ was lower 4 years after being spanked, What was the stopping age for the study? 10? 14? 16? If it's above 12 sure it could have an effect on IQ possibly, that's an age where you can resent your parents for spanking you, my sister was one of those kids, thus effecting your studies. But I will also point out that IQ is not a level of true intelligence. It's a measure of 1 type of intelligence. Spanking an 8 year old because he pushed his little sister down the stairs makes that kid realize, hey, not cool for me to do this. Spanking a 12+ year old because they did something wrong probably will make that kid resent his parents. My personal opinion is that 12+ year old kids should be well aware of what is right and wrong, and you can use words to get your point across, words+groundings and what not. But a child doesn't know what is right or wrong, and can't rationalize it. Maybe my number of 12 is a bit high, maybe the correct number is 10. I'm not sure. But I do know that spanking your kids is perfectly fine as long as it's not an extreme. SOOOOOO many kids get hit growing up, and end up perfectly fine and intelligent. I am one of those people. Just because kids who may have issues later on in life were spanked, doesn't mean that is the cause of it.
u make a fair point about the research but please don't forget this isn't just any parent this guy is an elected judge in family law. who needs to make professional decisions about custody etc involving child abuse on a daily basis.
Yah I deff think this video is really fucked up. 16 like I said imo is way to old for this kind of treatment. If she was pirating music/movies/etc, a strong lecture probably yelling, on top of grounding her, and maybe making her get a job to pay for any damages it causes to the family. That is acceptable, what is shown in the video clearly is not. I think spanking your kids is ok when THERE CHILDREN. At 16, there quite old enough to grasp your point without this kind of behavior.
The judge clearly went way to far 1 or 2 I can see as acceptable. Pray this man doesn't ever meet me it won't end well for him, kinda like the mother in shoot em up. Guy is clearly abusing his child.
This is pretty mild compared to the things I've seen. In the past year I've seen several children come in with broken bones or concussions only to find out that it wasn't a fall that cause it, but dear ol' dad.
This shit happens all the time and unfortunately the penalty for it is virtually non-existent.
I couldn't imagine ever striking my kids. Makes me sick.
Rule by fear and dominance. Rule by example. My Dad was somewhat similar, I don't think people should treat others like that, even to teach them a lesson. But I don't know what the lesson here is? Don't play computer games? Computers "force" their parents to beat their children mentally and physically? He doesn't need to do a lot of the things he does, he does them because he is angry and has the urge to. He is out of control, and doesn't give a shit because he thinks he is right.
I guess I can't really say whether it is right or wrong, but it happened to me, and I don't want it to happen to my children (should I choose to have them). Better ways to teach people.
On November 03 2011 04:04 Setev wrote: Yeah I agree that the girl's actions reek of revenge rather than a cry for help. Among other reasons posted above, why can't she talk to her father about how she felt about the beating? (After everyone had calmed the fuck down, of course. Preferably a few days later). If the father is not able to give a satisfactory explanation for his actions, then I admit that something is wrong with that man. That is abuse I see in the video, not punishment. But that is my opinion strictly.
Furthermore, the father mentioned that she lied and stole from him? That is fucking serious shit. A child must be discouraged from stealing at all costs. Its the indication when you know your child is gonna get fucked up later in life. For that, if she really did steal, then by all means cane her! But not with a belt and repeated strikes. A few taps on the palm or a few licks on the buttocks will do nicely. Then ground her for 3 months or more.
I know this is a slippery slope, but corporal punishment has greater benefits than drawbacks. It all depends on the execution and follow up.
And one more question to all the Swedes and Europeans in general - how do you discipline a child who stole the parent's money? How do you stop the child's slide into stealing from other people?
The father also mentioned that if the girl so much as looked at him it funny, more beating would ensue. Some small corner of my mind keeps nagging at me that this might be why she chose note to sit down and talk about how she felt. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome.
Also, more to the point, why the ever-burning fuck aren't you demanding that the father should have sat down with her and explained how he it felt about her stealing from it and lying to it?
EPT
