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On October 18 2011 13:25 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 13:17 lariat wrote:On October 18 2011 13:10 Reason.SC2 wrote:On October 18 2011 13:05 lariat wrote:On October 18 2011 13:02 Reason.SC2 wrote:
This is disgusting.
I can't believe there are some people on this forum even trying to justify this sort of behavior with some bullshit cowardly fail-logic of "ohh I might get in trouble"
Pathetic. If you are so inhumane and spineless as to let a little girl die without even so much as calling an ambulance or trying to alert a parent, you don't deserve the title of human being. I don't know what the hell is going on in these people's heads.
They are either sociopathic robots or crippled by their cowardice. Either way, I want no part of a society that behaves like this. It is a problem with society and people. China's culture and judicial precedents have affected the mindsets of the people who made the decision not to get involved with the situation. Furthermore, there is evidence that this reaction of non-involvement is endemic of humanity as a whole, which is ironic considering that you think these people shouldn't be called human beings. So you're trying to say that its human to act indifferently to the sight of a dying toddler on the street? Right. I hope there are not many people like you in this world. You can't bring cultural influences as a crutch for this bullshit either. What's next, Hitler and Nazi's killing jews was a result of a "cultural and judicial precedent"? What the fuck are you trying to argue? Its blatantly obvious that this sort of unwillingness to help is monstrous. No it is not human. And fuck no, continuing to bike to the convenience store to pick up that gum when you see a dying kid on the road is not human either. If you think it is then I feel sorry for you and your family. Read my post, bottom of page 20. If not, go to the wikipedia page "bystander effect". In it it discusses multiple studies which corroborate the fact that humans tend not to help others in a situation with many other people. If you hope there aren't many people like me in this world, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Blasterion has talked about a decision made in Chinese court where an elderly woman sued her helper because she was injured. This obviously would disincentivise people from helping others for fear of being sued, wouldn't it? You're responding too emotionally to this event. You need to calm down and think about the causes surrounding the situation you are trying to analyze. Trying to graft the values you possess from your culture and applying them to people who grew up in a vastly different situation than you is going to lead you to some very erroneous conclusions. So it is erroneous to be disgusted by this and denounce this behavior? I don't care what cultural influences are at play... some shit is just wrong. If you want to rape kids, kill people of a certain race, etc. Its not cool, and not acceptable in any circumstance. Its not a matter of cultural preference or taste, it is objectively harmful for the survival of our species. It attributes to weaker communities, weaker relationships, poorer standard of living, and ultimately a less meaningful life. The behavior showed by the people in this video falls under this category. Its unbelievable to me that people here are in a sense defending it. I know there are a lot of spineless selfish people and sociopathic fucks out there for sure, I just don't accept that its ok for them to act the way they do. Humanity is worse off for it and if you can't see that then we just aren't going to get anywhere.
It's not "erroneous to be disgusted by this" but you can't say the people in the video didn't have a reason for just ignoring the situation. They know what kind of legal / financial shit they could get into and most of the passersby don't even know how long the child has been lying there. You shouldn't be blaming the people, you should be blaming the legal system that is conducive to such behavior.
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On October 18 2011 13:17 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 13:15 Necrophantasia wrote:
There's a reason why there are so many Chinese people all over the world rather than in China. The reason being China, to be straightforward, really does suck.
Being Chinese myself and having lived in and worked in, I hauled ass out of that country as soon as I could. Mainland Chinese people (i.e HK/Macau/Taiwan exclude) really are some of the most dubious and down right selfish people on the planet.
But the viewpoint of Hong Konger's and also mine is that this is not entirely their fault. There is a culture of selfishness in the country born out of China's turbulent history. You have to keep in mind, the current generation of Chinese parents were born during the Cultural Revolution. That period of time was really a dog eat dog world where even survival was in question. My grandparents and parents had to run for their lives to Hong Kong. As a result, you now have a generation of Chinese who feel looking out for others is foolish. They feel risking yourself to help someone is foolish. Being fair, just, scrupulous, or even humane at the risk of setting yourself back is viewed as extremely foolish in the country. And recent events like the 06 incident do nothing to change the thinking of the Chinese people.
Change starts from early education, but when the parents of these children had to lead such a life and carry such beliefs, change is going to come slow. The current generation is rotten to the core. And the government doesn't want to change it. When people are too busy killing each other and looking out for themselves, they won't unite and challenge the power of the politburo.
China is like this, and will be like this for at least another generation to come. You know the funny thing is that we take a class called 思想品德(Morals) in Elementary school but really went it comes down to it, The morals kinda suck compared to foreigners that don't take it. But not their fault, it's just the way world works
Lol I remember that class, it was mostly considered to be a bit weird and useless by me and my friends since we weren't memorizing letters or doing math exercises to prepare for the exam haha I bet no one really absorbed what was taught.
Come to think of it, China has been confucian for most of its history, we even learn about the story of the pear sharing thing as children. We constantly hear stories about altruistic heroes in school books (though mostly communist war stuff) like 雷锋. (For those who don't know, he's known for being very kind, helping person and he died trying to put out a forest fire or something)
I'm pretty confident that most Chinese people would be very "decent" according to some western standards if they grew up in a less fucked up environment.
@Necrophantasia very well said and I fully agree.
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Anyone justifying the indifference with "the bystanders were afraid of being sued / fined" is full of shit.
I'd gladly fork over thousands in court rather than watch a little girl die, knowing I could have done something.
You think this video was disturbing to watch? Imagine seeing that in person. Unless you were one of the sick fucks in this video, that image would stay with you for the rest of your days.
I'm not going to blame the legal system over in China for this. That's bullshit. Aside from the woman who picked up that little girl, everyone in that video has blood on their hands.
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If Chinese law is really so awful that good samaritans get punished severely for helping then this is CHINESE problem that needs to be changed by the Chinese people. If this is a simple case of neglect, then all the people who failed to act should answer for this with the drivers.
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On October 18 2011 13:29 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 13:17 Blasterion wrote:On October 18 2011 13:15 Necrophantasia wrote:
There's a reason why there are so many Chinese people all over the world rather than in China. The reason being China, to be straightforward, really does suck.
Being Chinese myself and having lived in and worked in, I hauled ass out of that country as soon as I could. Mainland Chinese people (i.e HK/Macau/Taiwan exclude) really are some of the most dubious and down right selfish people on the planet.
But the viewpoint of Hong Konger's and also mine is that this is not entirely their fault. There is a culture of selfishness in the country born out of China's turbulent history. You have to keep in mind, the current generation of Chinese parents were born during the Cultural Revolution. That period of time was really a dog eat dog world where even survival was in question. My grandparents and parents had to run for their lives to Hong Kong. As a result, you now have a generation of Chinese who feel looking out for others is foolish. They feel risking yourself to help someone is foolish. Being fair, just, scrupulous, or even humane at the risk of setting yourself back is viewed as extremely foolish in the country. And recent events like the 06 incident do nothing to change the thinking of the Chinese people.
Change starts from early education, but when the parents of these children had to lead such a life and carry such beliefs, change is going to come slow. The current generation is rotten to the core. And the government doesn't want to change it. When people are too busy killing each other and looking out for themselves, they won't unite and challenge the power of the politburo.
China is like this, and will be like this for at least another generation to come. You know the funny thing is that we take a class called 思想品德(Morals) in Elementary school but really went it comes down to it, The morals kinda suck compared to foreigners that don't take it. But not their fault, it's just the way world works Lol I remember that class, it was mostly considered to be a bit weird and useless by me and my friends since we weren't memorizing letters or doing math exercises to prepare for the exam haha I bet no one really absorbed what was taught. Come to think of it, China has been confucian for most of its history, we even learn about the story of the pear sharing thing as children. We constantly hear stories about altruistic heroes in school books (though mostly communist war stuff) like 雷锋. (For those who don't know, he's known for being very kind, helping person and he died trying to put out a forest fire or something) I'm pretty confident that most Chinese people would be very "decent" according to some western standards if they grew up in a less fucked up environment. @Necrophantasia very well said and I fully agree.
China School was awesome, 2 hour lunch breaks, go home and comeback
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On October 18 2011 13:30 TutsiRebel wrote:
Anyone justifying the indifference with "the bystanders were afraid of being sued / fined" is full of shit.
I'd gladly fork over thousands in court rather than watch a little girl die, knowing I could have done something.
You think this video was disturbing to watch? Imagine seeing that in person. Unless you were one of the sick fucks in this video, that image would stay with you for the rest of your days.
It's not a matter of thousands of dollars, it's a matter of a possible murder sentence, tens of thousands of dollars at the very least for medical expenses when people make a hundred dollars a month. You could be throwing your life away to try and save a little girl who has been laying there for god knows how long (what are the chances of survival?).
That's not to say that helping the girl isn't "the right thing to do" (I'm not arguing for or against that). I'm just saying there is a huge, well known risk that nobody wants to take.
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On October 18 2011 13:28 LaLLsc2 wrote:
I cant believe anyone would watch that video, you can understand the situation from the description.. no need to watch the video.. sick
On the contrary, had there not been video evidence of this incident, many people simply would not believe that the published account is accurate. In fact, without the video this story probably wouldn't have even been on the local news.
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"If she is dead, I may pay only about 20,000 yuan ($3,125). But if she is injured, it may cost me hundreds of thousands yuan," said the driver over the phone to the media, before he gave himself up to the police.
wtf?
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That's pretty fucked up but I can completely understand why no one did anything. I wouldn't want to be entangled in a murder either. Picture this you bring the kid in to a hospital, then the cops show up. Suddenly you're under arrest for running the kid over or kidnap, or murder. The surveillance tape gets lost and then you're completely fucked.
I can only imagine how it might be in China, and judging by people's reactions it might not be too far off.
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I wouldn't put it past the courts to "reason" that if you stopped driving to make an emergency call, you probably caused the accident. Not that it makes it right to not call, just something to think about.
The legal problem in this situation is not straightforward at all. In the US, and most western countries, you can generally count on due process and rule by law: You'll be tried with the same laws in the same way as everyone else. You cannot assume that in mainland China. The judges can do basically whatever they like, with no real check to their power. Your video evidence? Not likely to make a difference if the judge has already decided how to rule-- there's a reason a courtroom is one of the scariest places to be in mainland China. And something about lawyers: defense lawyers regularly get intimidated by the CCP when they take on a controversial case. There are probably hundreds of thousands of lawyers; how many are going to stand up to the party and risk being imprisoned or "disappeared"? Even they are doing the right thing, they won't be doing it for much longer. The Constitution itself states that you have rights...until the government takes them away (Article 51, for those who want to check).
There's no redress of grievances. Someone mentioned that half a billion signatures on a petition would change things. I wanted to laugh at the absurdity of this, and cry at how depressing it is. A petition in China can often be little more than a list of people the government targets next. Hence the "mind your own business" mentality.
Part of it is just the class problem in the mainland. My family's from Taiwan, but we visit China often enough. The first thing my parents tell me when we get to the airport? Don't trust anyone you don't know. There are a lot of poor people in China, desperate for money, who prey upon people who are overly generous, overly trusting-- it's not unheard of to be kidnapped when you try to help someone, though obviously that wasn't the case here. This is the environment you live in. Add in the fact that the 2006 precedent scares the crap out of the altruists who are left, it's almost surprising anyone steps in to help anyone anymore. I agree with Blasterion's point here; of course it would be morally right to help the girl, but you can't know what the risk is to yourself. In the most perverse interpretation, if you walked and saw the girl lying there, you could think that she was faking it to bait you into helping her before someone else abducts you for ransom; a longshot, for sure, but not beyond possibility-- which is truly scary. (If you think that her injuries couldn't possibly be faked, remember what China is known for. The blindings like in Slumdog Millionaire still happen, and sometimes it's not just eyes you lose.)
I can't say that I would help the girl out even if I walk past; I'd probably report the emergency and walk away, because there's not much more you can do without exposing yourself to harm or costs that could ruin you and all of your relatives.
If you want me to say who's a fault, it's clear: the truck drivers and the system. It's tragic that this occurs, but understand why people don't help: there's a real threat of financial and bodily harm.
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On October 18 2011 13:30 TutsiRebel wrote:
Anyone justifying the indifference with "the bystanders were afraid of being sued / fined" is full of shit.
I'd gladly fork over thousands in court rather than watch a little girl die, knowing I could have done something.
You think this video was disturbing to watch? Imagine seeing that in person. Unless you were one of the sick fucks in this video, that image would stay with you for the rest of your days.
I'm not going to blame the legal system over in China for this. That's bullshit. Aside from the woman who picked up that little girl, everyone in that video has blood on their hands.
Establishing a decent Social Security system probably will help this situation, as well as amending several systems, including the Hospital fee liability.
Education is also important, because from the video that place look like a shithole
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On October 18 2011 13:29 RavenLoud wrote:
Lol I remember that class, it was mostly considered to be a bit weird and useless by me and my friends since we weren't memorizing letters or doing math exercises to prepare for the exam haha I bet no one really absorbed what was taught.
Come to think of it, China has been confucian for most of its history, we even learn about the story of the pear sharing thing as children. We constantly hear stories about altruistic heroes in school books (though mostly communist war stuff) like 雷锋. (For those who don't know, he's known for being very kind, helping person and he died trying to put out a forest fire or something)
I'm pretty confident that most Chinese people would be very "decent" according to some western standards if they grew up in a less fucked up environment.
@Necrophantasia very well said and I fully agree.
For thousands of years Chinese follow the Confucian moral and even lead the world in that respect.
Its sad to see what it comes down to in the recent decades.
When I talked with my mainland colleagues at work I am shocked by their views on personal rights and freedom of speech. However even they warn me NOT to help people on the streets as they are most likely "traps".
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On October 18 2011 13:30 TutsiRebel wrote:
Anyone justifying the indifference with "the bystanders were afraid of being sued / fined" is full of shit.
I'd gladly fork over thousands in court rather than watch a little girl die, knowing I could have done something.
You think this video was disturbing to watch? Imagine seeing that in person. Unless you were one of the sick fucks in this video, that image would stay with you for the rest of your days.
I'm not going to blame the legal system over in China for this. That's bullshit. Aside from the woman who picked up that little girl, everyone in that video has blood on their hands.
Would you? I'd wager that you are a student or have lived comfortably for most of your life, not someone who has made their own path through society and has earned everything they've had. If you have, imagine losing everything as a reward for saving a person's life, living the rest of your life in dejection and bitterness against society for punishing you for doing the morally correct action. Would you still go through with that action? If so, then you are truly remarkable. I know I can't speak to the same myself.
From your name I think you are familiar with the Rwandan genocide. Now imagine that the Tutsis enforced Belgian rule because they thought it would be the best option for all the repressed Rwandans and that they knew that freedom was coming soon. How would the Tutsis react to the Rwandan genocide then?
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On October 18 2011 13:35 DarkwindHK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 13:29 RavenLoud wrote:
Lol I remember that class, it was mostly considered to be a bit weird and useless by me and my friends since we weren't memorizing letters or doing math exercises to prepare for the exam haha I bet no one really absorbed what was taught.
Come to think of it, China has been confucian for most of its history, we even learn about the story of the pear sharing thing as children. We constantly hear stories about altruistic heroes in school books (though mostly communist war stuff) like 雷锋. (For those who don't know, he's known for being very kind, helping person and he died trying to put out a forest fire or something)
I'm pretty confident that most Chinese people would be very "decent" according to some western standards if they grew up in a less fucked up environment.
@Necrophantasia very well said and I fully agree. For thousands of years Chinese follow the Confucian moral and even lead the world in that respect. Its sad to see what it comes down to in the recent decades. When I talked with my mainland colleagues at work I am shocked by their views on personal rights and freedom of speech. However even they warn me NOT to help people on the streets as they are most likely "traps".
Morals went down the drain with the Cultural Revolution lol
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On October 18 2011 13:30 TutsiRebel wrote:
Anyone justifying the indifference with "the bystanders were afraid of being sued / fined" is full of shit.
I'd gladly fork over thousands in court rather than watch a little girl die, knowing I could have done something.
You think this video was disturbing to watch? Imagine seeing that in person. Unless you were one of the sick fucks in this video, that image would stay with you for the rest of your days.
I'm not going to blame the legal system over in China for this. That's bullshit. Aside from the woman who picked up that little girl, everyone in that video has blood on their hands.
The dude was fined for 45k yuan, the average worker get paid about 1k per month.
That kind of debt would put your family to the streets, and ruin your kids' future for good.
Just saying. If you truly have the guts to help her despite the risks, then bravo. Most likely though, most of the people here are just theorycrafting themselves from the moral high horse and have very little understanding of what it is to be like to be there.
If you want, you could also read up about the bystander effect.
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On October 18 2011 13:33 Anabolicqt wrote:
"If she is dead, I may pay only about 20,000 yuan ($3,125). But if she is injured, it may cost me hundreds of thousands yuan," said the driver over the phone to the media, before he gave himself up to the police.
wtf?
Now to just clarify
It is true that a auto-accident fatality is a fixed fine. but a disabled/injured victim allows the family to make the defendant liable for most of the medical costs for as long as the victim in question remains by law, alive. Which includes brain dead i believe in the case that the family does not approve of plug pulling.
This law is a fact.
If I recall last time I checked it was 30,000 RMB for a traffic fatality fine can some 1 confirm this?
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Couldn't watch after about 10 seconds. That's insane.
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I don't even know what to say...this is horrible.
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On October 18 2011 13:39 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 13:33 Anabolicqt wrote:
"If she is dead, I may pay only about 20,000 yuan ($3,125). But if she is injured, it may cost me hundreds of thousands yuan," said the driver over the phone to the media, before he gave himself up to the police.
wtf? Now to just clarify It is true that a auto-accident fatality is a fixed fine. but a disabled/injured victim allows the family to make the defendant liable for most of the medical costs for as long as the victim in question remains by law, alive. Which includes brain dead i believe in the case that the family does not approve of plug pulling. This law is a fact.
How tactless and unsympathetic of him to be saying this. At least he is taking responsibility.
I was hit by a car when I was 5 years old. The driver stayed in the hospital with me and came to visit me after I got out. He brought my grandma flowers and still asked about me years after. This happened in a country with a failing government, corruption, and rampant scamming. <-- That's proper behavior. Leaving the scene and then later talking about how you may have to pay a larger fine if she survives is not cool lol. Fuck that guy.
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Being Chinese and having traveled to China. I do notice there being a lot of indifference in China. Nothing racial, just what I have observed. People pushing and shoving, not holding doors, not respecting elderly. It seems conflicting with what seems to be traditional Chinese culture. My uncle just came to visit US for the first time, I asked him what was different in the US and the first thing he said was that people appeared to be kinder in body language, he didnt know what they were saying.,
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EPT
