EPTChinese Toddler Run Over, No One Helps! - Page 23
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
| ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:11 weishime wrote: I think the one child policy varies depending on if the Chinese are minority or not and where they live. Think the main rule is if you have a boy you can't have a second, while if the first is a girl you can try for a second. Knew one girl who said her parents had a son after her and then another kid. Because they had 3 the mother was arrested and taken away for a while which sounds like she was sterilized. Afterwards the girl said she was sent to live with grandparents. Might sound weird I know but mainlanders are also limited in how often they can visit Hong Kong in one year depending where they were born. Rules just vary from region to region so we don't get the full picture and instead contradicting statements. That ID thing the hukou plays such an important role in their lives. Really depends on the providence though, But the good/bad thing in China, If you have money you can make things happen. But on the topic of Male child, I believe I know one person that was in the neighborhood that bore a severe autistic child, who was able to file for another child without paying the fine. Guess really depends on the person that stamps the papers | ||
|
RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:10 Reason.SC2 wrote: So you're trying to say that its human to act indifferently to the sight of a dying toddler on the street? Right. I hope there are not many people like you in this world. You can't bring cultural influences as a crutch for this bullshit either. What's next, Hitler and Nazi's killing jews was a result of a "cultural and judicial precedent"? What the fuck are you trying to argue? Its blatantly obvious that this sort of unwillingness to help is monstrous. No it is not human. And fuck no, continuing to bike to the convenience store to pick up that gum when you see a dying kid on the road is not human either. If you think it is then I feel sorry for you and your family. Well it didn't take long for Godwin's law to be proven here didn't it  You're really going for a strawman trying to compare this to a pre-planned genocide btw... | ||
|
Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
Being Chinese myself and having lived in and worked in, I hauled ass out of that country as soon as I could. Mainland Chinese people (i.e HK/Macau/Taiwan exclude) really are some of the most dubious and down right selfish people on the planet. But the viewpoint of Hong Konger's and also mine is that this is not entirely their fault. There is a culture of selfishness in the country born out of China's turbulent history. You have to keep in mind, the current generation of Chinese parents were born during the Cultural Revolution. That period of time was really a dog eat dog world where even survival was in question. My grandparents and parents had to run for their lives to Hong Kong. As a result, you now have a generation of Chinese who feel looking out for others is foolish. They feel risking yourself to help someone is foolish. Being fair, just, scrupulous, or even humane at the risk of setting yourself back is viewed as extremely foolish in the country. And recent events like the 06 incident do nothing to change the thinking of the Chinese people. Change starts from early education, but when the parents of these children had to lead such a life and carry such beliefs, change is going to come slow. The current generation is rotten to the core. And the government doesn't want to change it. When people are too busy killing each other and looking out for themselves, they won't unite and challenge the power of the politburo. China is like this, and will be like this for at least another generation to come. Consider you are talking about the same people who made fake milk to poison toddlers and give them kidney stones for bigger profit margins, are you really shocked that someone could do something like this in China? | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:10 Reason.SC2 wrote: So you're trying to say that its human to act indifferently to the sight of a dying toddler on the street? Right. I hope there are not many people like you in this world. You can't bring cultural influences as a crutch for this bullshit either. What's next, Hitler and Nazi's killing jews was a result of a "cultural and judicial precedent"? What the fuck are you trying to argue? Its blatantly obvious that this sort of unwillingness to help is monstrous. No it is not human. And fuck no, continuing to bike to the convenience store to pick up that gum when you see a dying kid on the road is not human either. If you think it is then I feel sorry for you and your family. There's no need to invoke Goodwin's Law on this. If you fail to look at the issue holistically, you lose insight into it. I don't think anyone in here believes that it was tragic that no one gave direct help. However, what needs to be recognised is that many of them had a rational response to the problem due to problems such as the social welfare system in China, the legal precedence of '06, and many other causes. Riding the moral highhorse also means you refuse to fully appreciate the wider picture. Additionally, you're confusing direct action and any action. None of us say you should do nothing at all. But we're also saying that in a similar situation in China, it would be inadvisable to directly interfere with the situation as it could lead to legal liability. Taking into account the nature of the nuclear family in China and its interdependence, you can't just brush it off. Don't bring Western morales and culture into an issue where it does not apply. | ||
|
Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:02 Reason.SC2 wrote: This is disgusting. I can't believe there are some people on this forum even trying to justify this sort of behavior with some bullshit cowardly fail-logic of "ohh I might get in trouble" Pathetic. If you are so inhumane and spineless as to let a little girl die without even so much as calling an ambulance or trying to alert a parent, you don't deserve the title of human being. I don't know what the hell is going on in these people's heads. They are either sociopathic robots or crippled by their cowardice. Either way, I want no part of a society that behaves like this. Characteristics of a Sociopath: Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them False: Robots have no emotions. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them False: Robots will not if they have something that needs to be repaired, usually an error message. Authoritarian Robots obey all orders and give none. Secretive Robots have no secrets, only their designers. Paranoid Robots have no emotions Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired Robots are not tyrannical, they only obey their code Conventional appearance Robots do not look like human beings Goal of enslavement of their victim(s) Robots do not enslave people (at least not yet) Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life Robots do not control people Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) Robots have no emotions Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim Ultimate goal is following their code Incapable of real human attachment to another Is not human, N/A Unable to feel remorse or guilt True, robots have no emotions Extreme narcissism and grandiose Robots do not praise themselves, only their creators May state readily that their goal is to rule the world Possible. You get a 1.5 out of 15, 10%. That's failing, sorry, you have failed the talking out of your ass test. | ||
|
Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On October 18 2011 12:43 lariat wrote: You're missing the point. This isn't about ethics. This is about the fundamentals of argumentation: that is to bring evidence to support what you claim. I appeal to scientific study, yet you make no such attempt. I repeat: show reputable evidence that humans are completely distinct rational actors whose agency is not inherited. You claim that people make these decisions out of an innate quality, regardless of outside influences. Prove it. Logically, this requires an affirmation of the fact that child development has no effect upon the personality of the child. This is dubious. Going into extremities, from a biological perspective our brain's chemical composition is genetically encoded by our DNA when we are born, which is inherited from our parents, whose distant ancestors were weeded out through natural selection onset by multiple stimuli which could have affected which personalities emerged dominant after generations. This argument is fundamentally the theory of evolution. As for the bystander effect, the wikipedia page offers the explanation and multiple studies corroborating it, one of which is: Levine, Mark; Crowther, Simon (2008). "The Responsive Bystander: How Social Group Membership and Group Size Can Encourage as Well as Inhibit Bystander Intervention.". I have presented two arguments and a scientific study against your case. Your response? That's not what I meant exactly. You said You claim that people make these decisions out of an innate quality, regardless of outside influences . Thing is, I agree to that. What I am saying is that we need to draw a line between clear medical diagnosed conditions (eg.sociopathy) and frivolous studies on such a field like crowd psychology. You see where I'm getting at? Criminals admitting some weird ass psy-condition to lesser their sendence, lazy people being diagnosed left and right with some condition that will enable even more their lazy attitude etc. On our subject, being this poor little girls accident, I believe that each and every person that walked by is a gaping asshole. If you want to explain their behavior judging by this lawsuit fear people have, be my guest. But don't try to blame it on some effect that we invented to enable and justify our ever demeaning ethics and care for our fellow humans. And no, providing studies on psychology is not such a reliable criterion. Won't argue on that. | ||
|
casualman
United States1198 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:10 Reason.SC2 wrote: So you're trying to say that its human to act indifferently to the sight of a dying toddler on the street? Right. I hope there are not many people like you in this world. You can't bring cultural influences as a crutch for this bullshit either. What's next, Hitler and Nazi's killing jews was a result of a "cultural and judicial precedent"? What the fuck are you trying to argue? Its blatantly obvious that this sort of unwillingness to help is monstrous. No it is not human. And fuck no, continuing to bike to the convenience store to pick up that gum when you see a dying kid on the road is not human either. If you think it is then I feel sorry for you and your family. Read my post, bottom of page 20. If not, go to the wikipedia page "bystander effect". In it it discusses multiple studies which corroborate the fact that humans tend not to help others in a situation with many other people. If you hope there aren't many people like me in this world, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Blasterion has talked about a decision made in Chinese court where an elderly woman sued her helper because she was injured. This obviously would disincentivise people from helping others for fear of being sued, wouldn't it? You're responding too emotionally to this event. You need to calm down and think about the causes surrounding the situation you are trying to analyze. Trying to graft the values you possess from your culture and applying them to people who grew up in a vastly different situation than you is going to lead you to some very erroneous conclusions. | ||
|
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:12 Archers_bane wrote: The judges never seen a good citizen before? Or they were raised to be selfish and only think of themselves all the time? Maybe they were just high...any way you look at it, that verdict on the 06 case was complete bs "In a 2009 paper on the phenomenon, anthropologist Yunxiang Yan pointed out that police and judges frequently demanded that the helper prove his innocence, while the extortionist was not required to provide witnesses or other evidence." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/08/chinas-good-samaritans-count-cost | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:15 Necrophantasia wrote: There's a reason why there are so many Chinese people all over the world rather than in China. The reason being China, to be straightforward, really does suck. Being Chinese myself and having lived in and worked in, I hauled ass out of that country as soon as I could. Mainland Chinese people (i.e HK/Macau/Taiwan exclude) really are some of the most dubious and down right selfish people on the planet. But the viewpoint of Hong Konger's and also mine is that this is not entirely their fault. There is a culture of selfishness in the country born out of China's turbulent history. You have to keep in mind, the current generation of Chinese parents were born during the Cultural Revolution. That period of time was really a dog eat dog world where even survival was in question. My grandparents and parents had to run for their lives to Hong Kong. As a result, you now have a generation of Chinese who feel looking out for others is foolish. They feel risking yourself to help someone is foolish. Being fair, just, scrupulous, or even humane at the risk of setting yourself back is viewed as extremely foolish in the country. And recent events like the 06 incident do nothing to change the thinking of the Chinese people. Change starts from early education, but when the parents of these children had to lead such a life and carry such beliefs, change is going to come slow. The current generation is rotten to the core. And the government doesn't want to change it. When people are too busy killing each other and looking out for themselves, they won't unite and challenge the power of the politburo. China is like this, and will be like this for at least another generation to come. You know the funny thing is that we take a class called 思想品德(Morals) in Elementary school but really went it comes down to it, The morals kinda suck compared to foreigners that don't take it. But not their fault, it's just the way world works | ||
|
Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:15 Necrophantasia wrote: There's a reason why there are so many Chinese people all over the world rather than in China. The reason being China, to be straightforward, really does suck. Being Chinese myself and having lived in and worked in, I hauled ass out of that country as soon as I could. Mainland Chinese people (i.e HK/Macau/Taiwan exclude) really are some of the most dubious and down right selfish people on the planet. But the viewpoint of Hong Konger's and also mine is that this is not entirely their fault. There is a culture of selfishness in the country born out of China's turbulent history. You have to keep in mind, the current generation of Chinese parents were born during the Cultural Revolution. That period of time was really a dog eat dog world where even survival was in question. My grandparents and parents had to run for their lives to Hong Kong. As a result, you now have a generation of Chinese who feel looking out for others is foolish. They feel risking yourself to help someone is foolish. Being fair, just, scrupulous, or even humane at the risk of setting yourself back is viewed as extremely foolish in the country. And recent events like the 06 incident do nothing to change the thinking of the Chinese people. Change starts from early education, but when the parents of these children had to lead such a life and carry such beliefs, change is going to come slow. The current generation is rotten to the core. And the government doesn't want to change it. When people are too busy killing each other and looking out for themselves, they won't unite and challenge the power of the politburo. China is like this, and will be like this for at least another generation to come. Consider you are talking about the same people who made fake milk to poison toddlers and give them kidney stones for bigger profit margins, are you really shocked that someone could do something like this in China? Very good explanation, again it's a cultural thing. It'll be slow to change (most people our generation want things quick, want change NOW, but it's hard to pull off especially with obstacles, like corruption or logistics.) | ||
|
Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:12 heroyi wrote: sigh... please go search the forum about the other threads that talk about this (there is one that describes how a man helps a old lady who fell and required medical help and after helping her to the hospital he was sued by the lady on the grounds of he was responsible for her injury). Again, people don't want to help because they don't want to be accused of and be financially ruined. Obviously yes, it is a bit disturbing to see the kid get run over and watch people just witness and not try to assist the baby other than calling the ambulance. There is a story how a man fell down the escalators (or some shit like that) and broke some bones. People just stared at him while he was on the ground and no one assisted him until he announced that he required assistance and promised to not sue anyone. Right after he said that statement people rushed to his aide. It is a cruel world. What the fuck do you want? I mean people will do take advantage of a situation which is exactly what the citizens in China are afraid of. I am not saying that they should pick up the girl. In fact they shouldn't touch her not knowing what sort of potential spinal injury she may have. They didn't even call the police or ambulance. People *saw* the van hit the girl. People saw her lying there after and didn't even call an ambulance or for her parents. Yeah her parents are stupid for letting her walk around a busy street like that, but if you see that and you do nothing, then I question your relationship to fellow humans and how much you value life and the feelings of others. Simply put, you are a monstrous, terrible person whom the vast majority of people I know would hate and shun if you show that sort of indifference or cowardice. Nobody's gonna sue you for trying to find a parent or calling the police. Think about it. These people just keep going as if she was a watermelon or a pigeon. | ||
|
casualman
United States1198 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:16 Steveling wrote: That's not what I meant exactly. You said . Thing is, I agree to that. What I am saying is that we need to draw a line between clear medical diagnosed conditions (eg.sociopathy) and frivolous studies on such a field like croud psychology. You see where I'm getting at? Criminals admitting some weird ass psy-condition to lesser their sendence, lazy people being diagnosed left and right with some condition that will enable even more their lazy attitude etc. On our subject, being this poor little girls accident, I believe that each and every person that walked by is a gaping asshole. If you want to explain their behavior judging by this lawsuit fear people have, be my guest. But don't try to blame it on some effect that we invented to enable and justify our ever demeaning ethics and care for our fellow humans. And no, providing studies on psychology is not such a reliable criterion. Won't argue on that. Well, psychology isn't the most reputable of fields. Does this effect exist? I guess we don't see eye to eye on that. But I don't think either of us understand Chinese culture to the degree that we can judge them for their actions in such a black and white manner. | ||
|
Excomm
United States152 Posts
| ||
|
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
| ||
|
casualman
United States1198 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:15 Caller wrote: Characteristics of a Sociopath: False: Robots have no emotions. False: Robots will not if they have something that needs to be repaired, usually an error message. Robots obey all orders and give none. Robots have no secrets, only their designers. Robots have no emotions Robots are not tyrannical, they only obey their code Robots do not look like human beings Robots do not enslave people (at least not yet) Robots do not control people Robots have no emotions Ultimate goal is following their code Is not human, N/A True, robots have no emotions Robots do not praise themselves, only their creators Possible. You get a 1.5 out of 15, 10%. That's failing, sorry, you have failed the talking out of your ass test. Oh, you.  This thread did need a bit of lightening up. | ||
|
Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:17 lariat wrote: Read my post, bottom of page 20. If not, go to the wikipedia page "bystander effect". In it it discusses multiple studies which corroborate the fact that humans tend not to help others in a situation with many other people. If you hope there aren't many people like me in this world, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Blasterion has talked about a decision made in Chinese court where an elderly woman sued her helper because she was injured. This obviously would disincentivise people from helping others for fear of being sued, wouldn't it? You're responding too emotionally to this event. You need to calm down and think about the causes surrounding the situation you are trying to analyze. Trying to graft the values you possess from your culture and applying them to people who grew up in a vastly different situation than you is going to lead you to some very erroneous conclusions. So it is erroneous to be disgusted by this and denounce this behavior? I don't care what cultural influences are at play... some shit is just wrong. If you want to rape kids, kill people of a certain race, etc. Its not cool, and not acceptable in any circumstance. Its not a matter of cultural preference or taste, it is objectively harmful for the survival of our species. It attributes to weaker communities, weaker relationships, poorer standard of living, and ultimately a less meaningful life. The behavior showed by the people in this video falls under this category. Its unbelievable to me that people here are in a sense defending it. I know there are a lot of spineless selfish people and sociopathic fucks out there for sure, I just don't accept that its ok for them to act the way they do. Humanity is worse off for it and if you can't see that then we just aren't going to get anywhere. | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:18 Reason.SC2 wrote: I am not saying that they should pick up the girl. In fact they shouldn't touch her not knowing what sort of potential spinal injury she may have. They didn't even call the police or ambulance. People *saw* the van hit the girl. People saw her lying there after and didn't even call an ambulance or for her parents. Yeah her parents are stupid for letting her walk around a busy street like that, but if you see that and you do nothing, then I question your relationship to fellow humans and how much you value life and the feelings of others. Simply put, you are a monstrous, terrible person whom the vast majority of people I know would hate and shun if you show that sort of indifference or cowardice. Nobody's gonna sue you for trying to find a parent or calling the police. Think about it. These people just keep going as if she was a watermelon or a pigeon. Now let's analyze the situation calmly. Yeah the drivers do have problems, calling the ambulance does have its problems like I said, for example financial liabilities if the parents do go AWOL. now calling the parents would be a good idea, stopping traffic is a good idea. It is unfortunate that no one stop to help the girl. And regarding the behavior of the Driver that hit the girl to specify it, as to why he stepped on the accelerator, was to basically, as disturbing as it sounds, to confirm a kill, because you take smaller responsibility when your accident victim is dead, Because it's a fixed fine vs a medical bill for as long as the victim lives To draw a conclusion to the situation, The passerbys could have done something to help the girl, the 06 decision should have greatly impacted their willingness to help. Calling an ambulance is a good decision with some problems plaguing the system The incident was not at all resolved in a optimal manner, but it is fortunate that somebody eventually came to the girl's aid It is definitely terrible of the driver to do what he has done. | ||
|
Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On October 18 2011 13:25 Reason.SC2 wrote: So it is erroneous to be disgusted by this and denounce this behavior? I don't care what cultural influences are at play... some shit is just wrong. If you want to rape kids, kill people of a certain race, etc. Its not cool, and not acceptable in any circumstance. Its not a matter of cultural preference or taste, it is objectively harmful for the survival of our species. It attributes to weaker communities, weaker relationships, poorer standard of living, and ultimately a less meaningful life. The behavior showed by the people in this video falls under this category. Its unbelievable to me that people here are in a sense defending it. I know there are a lot of spineless selfish people and sociopathic fucks out there for sure, I just don't accept that its ok for them to act the way they do. Humanity is worse off for it and if you can't see that then we just aren't going to get anywhere. you know what else is objectively harmful for survival of our species? antibiotics. If we got rid of antibiotics, all the people with weak immune systems would die, leaving those with stronger immune systems more room to expand. By your logic, we should get rid of that. You disgust me because of (sociopathy; roboticalness; cowardice: pick 2). | ||
|
LaLLsc2
United States502 Posts
| ||
| ||
