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On October 17 2011 15:46 LAN-f34r wrote:
People who you buy drugs from are quite like to commit other crimes (gangs can have an impressive armory O.o)
Medical bills if you end up ill because of the drug use (or drug use causes an accident ie drunk driving)
Second hand smoke
Emotions of those close to you (How would your mother feel about you hurting yourself?)
Loss of your own productivity
ect
Victim-less crime?
Please look up the definition of victim. It doesn't mean someone isn't hurt by your actions, it means someone isn't victimized by your actions.
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People don't choose their gender, race, ethnicity, and, oftentimes, their faith. People can choose whether or not to use drugs. Merely suggesting that prejudice against a drug-user is comparable to prejudice against sexes or races is ludicrous and, to some extent, offensive. Do not cast the lot of a drug-user facing prejudice with that of a woman facing prejudice.
Additionally, drug use is not a crime without victims. Think of drug lords and gangs in Mexico-- think of the near Anarchy the state is facing-- the countless women and children who are being murdered in cold blood in order to line the pockets of criminals-- all thanks to drugs. Thanks to narcotics, to depressants, to stimulants, there is crime, abuse, and irrational behavior. Thanks to illegal drugs, there is poverty and destitution, there is murder. Illegal drug use has taken or ruined the lives of millions upon millions of people, and you want me to believe that illegal drug use is a crime without victims?
I hope you will understand why I feel no shame in my prejudice against those who use, buy, or sell any sort of illegal drug.
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marijuana? or cocaine?
alcohol? or caffiene?
nicotene? xanax?
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People are allowed to have their prejudices, and I would in no way 'legislate' otherwise, but I do indeed recommend being more receptive to things you initially have that knee-jerk prejudice to and applying some critical thought.
Where is the line drawn for you personally? Alcohol, weed, meth, crack, hallucinogens... where and WHY do you draw the line? Is the line concrete and drawn in every single circumstance?
Is a substances legal status a factor? Does, the use of/dependence upon, legal, prescribed, drugs (benzos, anti-depressants, opiates...) count? Does the use of/dependence upon these drugs factor in when they are being used illegally by those not prescribed?
Are you well educated on a specific substances positive/negative effects? In what scenarios are a drugs use "allowed"?
To what degree do you extend your prejudice? Do you actively look/talk/act down upon users or do you just personally avoid association?
If you've never fleshed out answers to these kinds of questions do you really think that you've applied any semblance of critical thought to the matter? All of us have personal reasons for the things we wish to stay away from and that is fine, but for fucks sake at least THINK about these things and whether they are actually healthy 'prejudices' to be having.
This is to no one in particular, just a response to the general mood of the thread.
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On October 17 2011 15:48 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 15:46 LAN-f34r wrote:
People who you buy drugs from are quite like to commit other crimes (gangs can have an impressive armory O.o)
Medical bills if you end up ill because of the drug use (or drug use causes an accident ie drunk driving)
Second hand smoke
Emotions of those close to you (How would your mother feel about you hurting yourself?)
Loss of your own productivity
ect
Victim-less crime? Please look up the definition of victim. It doesn't mean someone isn't hurt by your actions, it means someone isn't victimized by your actions.
Then victim-less crimes can still be hurting people? Why are they different from any other crime then, such that drugs should be allowed or accepted or whatever you want to call it?
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LAN-f34r I'm sorry for putting this so rudely but that post reads like a after school commercial :[
-Yes, people who buy drugs are likely to commit other crimes. Just like people who serve in the military are prone to be violent or people from Alabama that were born in the 1940s are likely to be racist. ..... Generalizations are the entire content of your post. I'd say drug users and sellers are as varied as any other section of the population and when people assert blanket claims it's very off putting for actual discussion including drug users.
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On October 17 2011 15:43 Surrealz wrote:
Remember that a fairly large portion people who are against these drugs haven't tried them. Its like acid, most people have a very very different perception of it before and after. It is often regarded as an almost rite of passage because of how indescribable it is to someone who hasn't tried.
But drugs like heroin crack meth etc are just messed up and are extremely addicitive, harmful to your body, and are OD-able.
Everything is toxic, but it's the dose that makes the poison. That's the first law of toxicology.
You can OD on any drug. Although the law of toxicology states you can OD on jelly beans and fried chicken, lets stay on track.
Enough LSD will kill you, or make you very ill. Enough of any drug, legal or illegal will do this. If you happen to have 1.2 grams of LSD laying around, and you stumble upon it when you're tripping, or you decide it would be a good idea to trip really hard and just take it all, you would die.
It would take about 8 grams (about a half a pound) of mushrooms to kill you 50% of the time.
It's not likely that you would OD on these drugs, but they're not exactly not-OD-able.
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On October 17 2011 15:46 SpaceToaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 15:39 AutomatonOmega wrote:On October 17 2011 15:37 Meta wrote:
It is prejudice in some circumstances, such as when a person's drug use is controlled and does not negatively effect the user in any way. In general, blanket statements like "illegal drug users have decreased mental/thought capacity" is unfair. Some drug users have low mental/thought capacity, but the same could be said for people who don't use drugs and vice versa.
I think the prejudice against illegal drug use is a social construct used to control people's freedoms. It's generally held by people who have never even tried drugs, or people who have tried them but were bad at using them. There's no reason for a few bad apples who can't handle drug intake to remove other people's basic human right of control over your own body.
I feel like the argument from the other side is based on emotion, when someone's friend overdosed or alcoholic/drug addicted family member has their personality drained by the positive and negative effects of the drugs. Well guess what, I also had a friend once who got heavily addicted to (non-illegal) drugs to the point that it almost ruined his life before he finally got sober, in fact if he didn't get sober when he did he might have died. That sucked, but the fact of the matter is, people who are bad at doing drugs shouldn't do them. If they do them and get addicted, it should be up to them and/or their family to get official medical treatment for their addiction. The law shouldn't have any say in the matter. What about people that have lived and worked with drug/alcohol addicts their entire lives, watching their friends and loved ones flounder at life for year after year, making little compromises here and there in every other facet of their life to fit those chemicals in? I think what he is trying to argue is that you should look at each situation individually rather than having a blanket prejudice.
I've lived with, worked with, and been friends and enemies with stoners my entire adult life. I've seen the consistent long-term ill effects of prolonged addicted marijuana abuse. So much unrealized potential.
And those of you out there saying that (anecdotally) you know of someone who realized great potential while being on weed, you never saw what they were capable off of weed to know the difference. Just imagine the possibilities of sobriety! That accomplished doctor/lawyer/surgeon/etc. that you know who sparks up a doob every night before bedtime is the exception.
That's like pointing to the (again, anecdotal) story of the old lady that smoked cigarettes and drank alcohol and lived to be 97 years old as somehow being evidence that that shit isn't as bad for you as everyone says it is. You're deluding yourself if you think that's the case.
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On October 17 2011 11:32 VPCursed wrote:
I wouldn't want to be around someone who felt uncomfortable with others who used recreational drugs.
Not because I find their prejudice misguided but because id find them to be a tad moronic.
Also, there is a difference between drug user and drug abuser.
Well, if those people who used recreational drugs have great personalities and are good friends, then I'll be fine to hang out with them WHEN THEY ARE SOBER. But when they start using those drugs in my presence, then I'll ask them to shove it or do it somewhere else.
Anyway, I find it weird that you find people who are uncomfortable with others who used recreational drugs "a tad moronic". Why is that? Its perfectly understandable that people want to stay away from smokers when they are puffing away on regular cigarettes or pot or weed or heroine etc. Don't want to get poisoned by all those carcinogens.
You said that there is a difference between drug use and drug abuse. Well, hate to break it to you but recreational drug use is drug abuse. Try and prove me wrong by quoting some medical study or case file.
You think its "COOL" to use drugs? Well, I find that concept truly moronic.
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This is entirely pointless because the only reason to have a prejudice against drug users is because of the stigma attached to the 'culture' rather than the actual drug itself. So yes it would be irrational to be prejudiced because of drug use because each case is individual. It also depends on certain drugs. Certain drugs are understandable in that you don't like what they do to people, but to lump all drug users as bad is infentile.
After all, everyone takes drugs. Everyone. Rx or not a drug is a drug is a drug.
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I feel sorry for the people who are so bombarded with negativity from the media and so unable to think for themselves and from their own experiences that they hold prejudice against users of marijuana.
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On October 17 2011 15:48 mbr2321 wrote:
People don't choose their gender, race, ethnicity, and, oftentimes, their faith. People can choose whether or not to use drugs. Merely suggesting that prejudice against a drug-user is comparable to prejudice against sexes or races is ludicrous and, to some extent, offensive. Do not cast the lot of a drug-user facing prejudice with that of a woman facing prejudice.
Additionally, drug use is not a crime without victims. Think of drug lords and gangs in Mexico-- think of the near Anarchy the state is facing-- the countless women and children who are being murdered in cold blood in order to line the pockets of criminals-- all thanks to drugs. Thanks to narcotics, to depressants, to stimulants, there is crime, abuse, and irrational behavior. Thanks to illegal drugs, there is poverty and destitution, there is murder. Illegal drug use has taken or ruined the lives of millions upon millions of people, and you want me to believe that illegal drug use is a crime without victims?
I hope you will understand why I feel no shame in my prejudice against those who use, buy, or sell any sort of illegal drug.
During the NA prohibition era alcohol was also peddled by criminal gangs and created at home by petty criminals.
The more I drink the more I find that it is little different from marijuana except that one is legal and the other isn't. In the end, whether or not alcohol or marijuana impairs a person severely lies mostly on how much self control and prudence one has. Cigarettes causes cancer and other ailments for both the smoker and everyone around them. You don't see smokers face the same kind of persecution that someone smoking weed might face.
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On October 17 2011 15:55 psycroptic wrote:
I feel sorry for the people who are so bombarded with negativity from the media and so unable to think for themselves and from their own experiences that they hold prejudice against users of marijuana.
I have never seen marijuana in media.
Good or bad.
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On October 17 2011 15:08 Romance_us wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:44 Chargelot wrote:On October 17 2011 12:40 Romance_us wrote:On October 17 2011 12:39 Chargelot wrote:On October 17 2011 12:34 Romance_us wrote:On October 17 2011 12:29 Greentellon wrote:
I know a person who is heavily alcoholic. Alcohol has been compared several times to the mildest of drugs and I have seen from front row how acholos has ruined his brain and life. Perhaps it's not all alcohols fault, but every time I see him wasted, stumbling around there unable to make a coherent thought, I pity him. I can't feel anything but pity towards him.
If I hear you mention drugs I may forgive you if you don't push the issue further, but if you keep at it or you actually whip some out, I will call the cops on the spot. Oh well, maybe I will leave the room/house first. Is that prejudice? No, it's me being smart. If you want to ruin your brain and health, go ahead. But don't drag me into your insanity. Dude, it's you being smart? HAHAHAHA. No. It's you having an irrational (and impulsive) reaction based on complete ignorance. That's quite humorous though I mean just to think you'd call the cops on somebody and negatively affect their life for a personal choice they made that does not directly nor indirectly affect yours just seems a little crazy In America, illegal drugs are illegal. It's insane, I know. But if you flaunt your drug use, you're probably going to jail, one way or another. Sorry that you don't like that. But that's the way it works. Something about crimes being prosecutable in the court of law. who said anything about morals being related to laws? please go away In America, when people break the law, we have this thing we do which we refer to as "calling the police". Equally as insane as my former post. Anyways, the police are readily available, and will report to the location you give them in very little time. They then proceed to arrest the criminals. Is it stupid to call the police when someone is throwing their drug use in your face? Maybe on your island. But here, we call that normal. who said anything about morals being related to laws? please go away also your attempt to condescend while simultaneously being unintelligent is amusing
Laws are founded on basic moral principals. These principals focused on the smooth running of a coherent and thoughtful society. Cocaine was enforceably outlawed in 1970 in the United States because the government realized it had dangerously addictive properties, extreme health risks, and posed a real danger to society.
Murder is illegal because it is immoral by all modern, standard principles-- as is robbery, driving while intoxicated, rape, and so many other despicable, detestable things.
Basically, what I'm saying, in so many words, is that you are completely misguided, misinformed, or generally ignorant while you attempt to disassociate laws and morals. please go away
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On October 17 2011 15:53 Probe1 wrote:
LAN-f34r I'm sorry for putting this so rudely but that post reads like a after school commercial :[
-Yes, people who buy drugs are likely to commit other crimes. Just like people who serve in the military are prone to be violent or people from Alabama that were born in the 1940s are likely to be racist. ..... Generalizations are the entire content of your post. I'd say drug users and sellers are as varied as any other section of the population and when people assert blanket claims it's very off putting for actual discussion including drug users.
I was making a point that drugs do hurt other people. Perhaps one user might not have any negative effects. But there ARE negative effects. My point were examples of possible negative effects.
Notice what I did not try to do: say that these effects are larger than the benefit gained from drug use, say that people should not some drugs, say that everyone will cause these effects.
Notice what I did do: Make a counter argument to a flawed argument.
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On October 17 2011 15:58 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 15:48 mbr2321 wrote:
People don't choose their gender, race, ethnicity, and, oftentimes, their faith. People can choose whether or not to use drugs. Merely suggesting that prejudice against a drug-user is comparable to prejudice against sexes or races is ludicrous and, to some extent, offensive. Do not cast the lot of a drug-user facing prejudice with that of a woman facing prejudice.
Additionally, drug use is not a crime without victims. Think of drug lords and gangs in Mexico-- think of the near Anarchy the state is facing-- the countless women and children who are being murdered in cold blood in order to line the pockets of criminals-- all thanks to drugs. Thanks to narcotics, to depressants, to stimulants, there is crime, abuse, and irrational behavior. Thanks to illegal drugs, there is poverty and destitution, there is murder. Illegal drug use has taken or ruined the lives of millions upon millions of people, and you want me to believe that illegal drug use is a crime without victims?
I hope you will understand why I feel no shame in my prejudice against those who use, buy, or sell any sort of illegal drug. During the NA prohibition era alcohol was also peddled by criminal gangs and created at home by petty criminals. The more I drink the more I find that it is little different from marijuana except that one is legal and the other isn't. In the end, whether or not alcohol or marijuana impairs a person severely lies mostly on how much self control and prudence one has. Cigarettes causes cancer and other ailments for both the smoker and everyone around them. You don't see smokers face the same kind of persecution that someone smoking weed might face.
My point wasn't that illegal drugs should be illegal. I understand and sympathize with you that there are very strange and narrow classifications of what is a "dangerous" substance and what isn't.
My point is that I look down on people who use illegal drugs because they are indirectly supporting and facilitating the violent crimes that preceded their purchase of the substance.
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On October 17 2011 15:54 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 15:43 Surrealz wrote:
Remember that a fairly large portion people who are against these drugs haven't tried them. Its like acid, most people have a very very different perception of it before and after. It is often regarded as an almost rite of passage because of how indescribable it is to someone who hasn't tried.
But drugs like heroin crack meth etc are just messed up and are extremely addicitive, harmful to your body, and are OD-able. Everything is toxic, but it's the dose that makes the poison. That's the first law of toxicology. You can OD on any drug. Although the law of toxicology states you can OD on jelly beans and fried chicken, lets stay on track. Enough LSD will kill you, or make you very ill. Enough of any drug, legal or illegal will do this. If you happen to have 1.2 grams of LSD laying around, and you stumble upon it when you're tripping, or you decide it would be a good idea to trip really hard and just take it all, you would die. It would take about 8 grams (about a half a pound) of mushrooms to kill you 50% of the time. It's not likely that you would OD on these drugs, but they're not exactly not-OD-able.
I literally fucking ODed on weed once. I was SURE there was other shit in that brownie, up to and including meth, shrooms, LSD, possibly PCP, DMT, etc.
I ate about a 6oz brownie. I think it had an unevenly potent concentration of weed in it compared to the others because nobody got as fucked up that night as I did, and the next time I tried to eat one (weeks later) it was NOTHING like this shit. HOLY FUCK.
I noticed I was getting fucked up because I started getting cotton mouth on my way to the deli to get some snacks (which should've tipped me off by itself). I was giggling to myself on the way home as my time perception started sharply distorting. I ran into a buddy of mine and we spoke for a while, but I had to end the conversation on the grounds that I was incapable of finishing a sentence. I found this hilarious, and so did he.
I also found everything else hilarious for the next couple of hours. My heart rate spiked and I think (not sure, but think) I started having a migraine. Problem was (or maybe not problem, per se) that I was too high to feel the pain, but the contraction of my blood vessels in my brain made the high much worse. Time collapsed into half second increments. The light was on and off at the same time, not strobing, but simultaneously on and fucking off. (Was actually off, though.) My heart was glowing neon yellow-green and my brain was glowing red-orange. The blood vessels between them gently changed from the former to the latter as the blood traveled through them.
I spent the next undisclosed number of hours talking to myself rapidly, talking to god pretty rapidly, dreaming trippy music while not sleeping, touching myself, feeling guilty about touching myself since, you know, god was RIGHT THE FUCK THERE.
It was intense.
I eventually crawled to the bathroom and vomited the entirety of my stomach contents several times before finally being able to go to sleep.
I was STILL pretty high the next morning.
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Anyways, this narrative is there to let you guys know that yes, I have been fucked up, and I'm not condemning weed use for the sake thereof out of some kind of church lady crusade.
Hope you found that entertaining.
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On October 17 2011 15:54 Setev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 11:32 VPCursed wrote:
I wouldn't want to be around someone who felt uncomfortable with others who used recreational drugs.
Not because I find their prejudice misguided but because id find them to be a tad moronic.
Also, there is a difference between drug user and drug abuser. Well, if those people who used recreational drugs have great personalities and are good friends, then I'll be fine to hang out with them WHEN THEY ARE SOBER. But when they start using those drugs in my presence, then I'll ask them to shove it or do it somewhere else. Anyway, I find it weird that you find people who are uncomfortable with others who used recreational drugs "a tad moronic". Why is that? Its perfectly understandable that people want to stay away from smokers when they are puffing away on regular cigarettes or pot or weed or heroine etc. Don't want to get poisoned by all those carcinogens. You said that there is a difference between drug use and drug abuse. Well, hate to break it to you but recreational drug use is drug abuse. Try and prove me wrong by quoting some medical study or case file. You think its "COOL" to use drugs? Well, I find that concept truly moronic.
Nowhere did he say it was COOL to use drugs.
There is absolutely a difference between drug use and drug abuse, you throwing recreational into the mix as if it suddenly devalues the person doing it is exactly the stigma he's essentially calling moronic.
If you can conclude that there is acceptable drug use, and you can, assuming you've ever taken medication for anything ever, it is not equal to drug abuse. Whether it's RECREATIONAL or not shouldn't be a factor. Are you going to so far as to say, a person prescribed xanax for anxiety and uses it on a regular basis is a perfectly legitimate and upstanding citizen, while someone that has taken xanax ONCE outside of having a prescription is a drug abuser? Even though the latter is significantly healthier than the former?
I'd find it extremely difficult as to how that holds up to the scrutiny of an intelligent individual.
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The difference between prejudice toward drug users and prejudice toward people of certain ethnic backgrounds is the choice factor.
Some people would argue that sexual orientation is also a choice that people make, but I beg to differ.
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I think drugs really need to be separated into different categories because really, not all illegal drugs are the same. I break them down like this:
If someone were to tell me they smoke pot I'd think 'ok cool' and it wouldn't have very much of an effect on my opinion of them because I've been friends with pot-heads and I know some pot smokers that I didn't really like. I myself smoke marijuana quite irregularly. I've smoked somewhat heavily in the past, and have an occasional toke every now and then. I personally don't think its had a detrimental effect on me whatsoever but I do understand that weed can mess some people up.
If someone said they do are have done LSD or shrooms it would probably have a positive effect on my attitude towards them because, having done lsd, I find that psychedelics are mind-opening. I feel that my experience with LSD has made me a better, more empathetic person.
If someone said they like drinking alcohol, I would really have to know in what kind of moderation to form an opinion but I suppose right of the bat, it would ever so slightly negatively impact my opinion of that person because I just link alcohol with that whole "bro" college kid scene. I do drink every now and again, and I find that it generally loosens people up, sometimes to the point where they just get really obnoxious.
Now if someone said they do meth or crack or coke or similar drugs, it would have a definite negative impact on my opinion of them. I would most likely try to avoid that person. But at the same time, I would try to hold back on judging them too harshly. They made some bad choices, sure. However, they may not have had the best opportunity to make smart decisions. When someone is surrounded by illicit activity, that pretty much what they learned is the norm. And those hard drugs don't give second chances. Not most of the time anyways. Just because someone is an addict doesn't mean they are a bad person. Of course, some addicts are, but at the same time, sober people can be bad people too.
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EPT
