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Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2013 04:03 Merany wrote:How do you guys deal with a girl that makes you feel like the dating phase is moving at a really slow pace? The setup is: met this girl through online dating. We started to talk a bit, exchanged 10 or so emails back and forth, she seemed like someone I'd like to date (cute in my book and quite clever) so I asked her for a first meet up which she accepted. We had a beer in a nice bar downtown and spent about 2-3 hours talking and both seemed to enjoy ourselves. That was a bit more than a week ago. We agreed on a second date which could not happen until last Sunday. She suggested we go to our city's aquarium which was ok and we ended up drinking a nice hot chocolate in another bar downtown. Once again, I had fun and she seemed to enjoy herself. I also started to try to flirt a bit but with very little success. I remember her mentioning she had a pain somewhere in the back, said to her jokingly that I make very good massages, to which she replayed with a smile something along the line of "clever boy, aren't you? Nice try" and then moved on. I'm still fine at that point. So yesterday, I asked her if she wants to do something this week, she replied, "yeah, why not tonight" and we agreed to watch a movie at her place. During the movie (something funny), she was clearly keeping her distances on the couch. Not too obvious but still and I'm starting to wonder what is up. End of the movie, I still have an hour left before grabbing my bus so we spend some time talking. I'm cold and I see a blanket near me, put it on us both and use that opportunity to get a lot closer to her and I'm greeted with the exact same "clever boy, aren't you". I replied "Do you blame me for trying?" and she once again closed the discussion with a "I guess it's part of the game". The only other "hint" I can remember of was her mentioning being messy with her place followed by a "I'd better warn you before…". And I left with a kiss on the cheek (which in France, is totally normal, we never hug). Sooooo…. Am I just wayyyy overthinking it? Maybe she just needs a lot of time but seriously, I'm starting to question myself at that point… I mean, she would just cut things loose if she was not interested right? Is it a good idea to just be upfront about it with her? Like call her and ask? Another important element in that story, at least in my eyes is that she a going on a one month vacation in Argentina in about a week and a half (she's going alone, sort of a challenge she set up for herself). I feel like I absolutely need to "conclude" something before she goes… Oh btw, we're both 25, so we've both had our own experiences before. I'm just really not used to that kind of super slow pace… And this post as gone way longer than I expected  Any advice appreciated! So, I'm going to give a small update on my situation because sometimes, failing shit tests is not the end of the world and things end up rather well (or kinda, more on that later). After the "failed" night at her place, I decided I was going to give me one last chance. In my city, there's this event once a year where they have crazy light animations all over the place, "Fêtes de lumières" if you want to google it, it's pretty cool! So I asked her if she wanted to go with me and after a bit of back and forth texting, she said she was getting back to me on Sunday. Sunday comes and she sends me a message: "what about you come at my place, we watch a movie together and we go out after?" Needless to say, did not miss the opportunity this time (the sign was way too clear anyway), we never went out and spent the evening making out on her couch. We also talked about the first evening and she clearly said I should have made a move  We've been able to see each other a couple times this week, including dinner at my place and me sleeping at her (dunno if sleep is the right word there though, cause we did not sleep that much ) So far, so good! Problem is, she is still going on a one month vacation in Argentina and she is leaving tomorrow  Today, she said she wanted to have a talk. The quick version was: "Listen, we don't know each other well enough, can't promise you anything while I'm away, don't want you to wait for me because I don't want to break your heart, can't say for sure I'll be willing to continue when I come back because I have no idea in what state of mind I'll be even though I really want to start something long term with someone, if you have opportunities go for it" And that's pretty much it. I said a bunch of stuff but the even shorter version could be: "I don't want to know what you're going to do there, just enjoy your trip. I AM going to wait and I'm willing to take the risk because I do want to spend more time with you" I think we agreed to live our lives for a month and to contact each other then. Soooooooo. I guess my only option is too wait. I enjoy being with this girl. And I know that unless something absolutely miraculous happens until then (and we all know that kind of stuff only belongs to movies), I'll still be single. Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Any advice maybe to keep this month shorter? (that's going to be the longest month of my life...). Don't know what I'm really looking for by posting here, another hald sad, half happy story to add to the thread at the very least I guess
Let's get some stuff out of the window first:
One month is a short time. End of the story. Even for a casual thing, one month is just short. One year would be a very different story but one month is nothing.
Now. The problem you currently have is that she's purposely being evasive because she wants to be free of any attachment while she's away and do whatever she wants. At least to me it really smells like it.
Being you, I'd just do what I can to still make as much as I can with the current situation but I'd really cut down on the whole "I'll wait for you" part. The thing is, by saying that, you're just reinforcing her feeling that she shouldn't do anything now because it would break you if it fails later. In a way it pressures her. So... I'd just stop doing that and recenter her on the present: "look, whatever happens while you're away. What matters for me is right now, if it doesn't last longer then so be it." But I have a feeling it would be a break of character for you right now... meh I'd still do it.
For the month of vacation itself, the best you can do if she's willing is to send a message once or twice. And make plans to meet again when she comes back.
Meanwhile, during your own month you should really do the same thing, not think that much about her and live your own life. Meet another one (reusing your online dating account), see where it is going. Invest in a new hobby (sport, music, ...), see some friends etc.
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On December 15 2013 03:25 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2013 04:03 Merany wrote:How do you guys deal with a girl that makes you feel like the dating phase is moving at a really slow pace? The setup is: met this girl through online dating. We started to talk a bit, exchanged 10 or so emails back and forth, she seemed like someone I'd like to date (cute in my book and quite clever) so I asked her for a first meet up which she accepted. We had a beer in a nice bar downtown and spent about 2-3 hours talking and both seemed to enjoy ourselves. That was a bit more than a week ago. We agreed on a second date which could not happen until last Sunday. She suggested we go to our city's aquarium which was ok and we ended up drinking a nice hot chocolate in another bar downtown. Once again, I had fun and she seemed to enjoy herself. I also started to try to flirt a bit but with very little success. I remember her mentioning she had a pain somewhere in the back, said to her jokingly that I make very good massages, to which she replayed with a smile something along the line of "clever boy, aren't you? Nice try" and then moved on. I'm still fine at that point. So yesterday, I asked her if she wants to do something this week, she replied, "yeah, why not tonight" and we agreed to watch a movie at her place. During the movie (something funny), she was clearly keeping her distances on the couch. Not too obvious but still and I'm starting to wonder what is up. End of the movie, I still have an hour left before grabbing my bus so we spend some time talking. I'm cold and I see a blanket near me, put it on us both and use that opportunity to get a lot closer to her and I'm greeted with the exact same "clever boy, aren't you". I replied "Do you blame me for trying?" and she once again closed the discussion with a "I guess it's part of the game". The only other "hint" I can remember of was her mentioning being messy with her place followed by a "I'd better warn you before…". And I left with a kiss on the cheek (which in France, is totally normal, we never hug). Sooooo…. Am I just wayyyy overthinking it? Maybe she just needs a lot of time but seriously, I'm starting to question myself at that point… I mean, she would just cut things loose if she was not interested right? Is it a good idea to just be upfront about it with her? Like call her and ask? Another important element in that story, at least in my eyes is that she a going on a one month vacation in Argentina in about a week and a half (she's going alone, sort of a challenge she set up for herself). I feel like I absolutely need to "conclude" something before she goes… Oh btw, we're both 25, so we've both had our own experiences before. I'm just really not used to that kind of super slow pace… And this post as gone way longer than I expected Any advice appreciated! So, I'm going to give a small update on my situation because sometimes, failing shit tests is not the end of the world and things end up rather well (or kinda, more on that later). After the "failed" night at her place, I decided I was going to give me one last chance. In my city, there's this event once a year where they have crazy light animations all over the place, "Fêtes de lumières" if you want to google it, it's pretty cool! So I asked her if she wanted to go with me and after a bit of back and forth texting, she said she was getting back to me on Sunday. Sunday comes and she sends me a message: "what about you come at my place, we watch a movie together and we go out after?" Needless to say, did not miss the opportunity this time (the sign was way too clear anyway), we never went out and spent the evening making out on her couch. We also talked about the first evening and she clearly said I should have made a move We've been able to see each other a couple times this week, including dinner at my place and me sleeping at her (dunno if sleep is the right word there though, cause we did not sleep that much ) So far, so good! Problem is, she is still going on a one month vacation in Argentina and she is leaving tomorrow Today, she said she wanted to have a talk. The quick version was: "Listen, we don't know each other well enough, can't promise you anything while I'm away, don't want you to wait for me because I don't want to break your heart, can't say for sure I'll be willing to continue when I come back because I have no idea in what state of mind I'll be even though I really want to start something long term with someone, if you have opportunities go for it" And that's pretty much it. I said a bunch of stuff but the even shorter version could be: "I don't want to know what you're going to do there, just enjoy your trip. I AM going to wait and I'm willing to take the risk because I do want to spend more time with you" I think we agreed to live our lives for a month and to contact each other then. Soooooooo. I guess my only option is too wait. I enjoy being with this girl. And I know that unless something absolutely miraculous happens until then (and we all know that kind of stuff only belongs to movies), I'll still be single. Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Any advice maybe to keep this month shorter? (that's going to be the longest month of my life...). Don't know what I'm really looking for by posting here, another half sad, half happy story to add to the thread at the very least I guess Good job making progress! Also I like the way she handled her going away for a month. You should definitely enjoy that time as well, don't use the fact that she is coming back as a reason not to meet new people, especially since it isn't a sure thing.
The thing is, I met her through online dating. And I used online dating in the first place because I was not able to meet new girls otherwise (circle of friends is rather "closed" and I'm a software engineer so workplace is out ). As I said, sure if a miracle happens and the woman of my life stumbles upon me, I'll go for it but really, I'm not going to go back to online dating, looking at profiles, sending a bunch of messages, getting replies on 1/5 of them etc, it just feels wrong to me...
I guess I have a month to learn how to play dota 2 properly, learn the guitar maybe cause I have one and never used it. Send some prayers to god knows who, suck it up and wait a month
On December 15 2013 03:09 Calanthe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:
Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Hi. Real life woman here. When I was single, one of my great pleasures in life was getting reasonably drunk while on vacation, flirting shamelessly, and hoping that the flirting ended in sex. What she's setting up here is an out for herself. Sometimes you come back from a break or a vacation and you find yourself thinking, "You know, I'm not really into this." Jobs, people you're dating, hobbies you've taken up, etc. Coming back from a vacation clears your head a little, so sometimes it's easier to admit these things to yourself. If she decides that she doesn't want to see you any more, don't fret. You can't be The One for everyone.
I guess you're not helping me a whole lot there haha but thanks anyway for the answer I think I can understand that state of mind, even though I would have prefer it to be different.
@rezoacken: I guess you are right, that would have been a better approach. We've already had the talk though and I've already said that I wanted to spend more time with her. I just hope that the "you're free to enjoy yourself and do whatever the fuck you want, as long as I do not know" message was clear...
Anyway, a few hours after we left, she sent me her Skype account so I could have some news. I'll try to contact her once a week or something and hope she is in a good state of mind when she comes back
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On December 15 2013 08:09 Merany wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 03:25 Najda wrote:On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2013 04:03 Merany wrote:How do you guys deal with a girl that makes you feel like the dating phase is moving at a really slow pace? The setup is: met this girl through online dating. We started to talk a bit, exchanged 10 or so emails back and forth, she seemed like someone I'd like to date (cute in my book and quite clever) so I asked her for a first meet up which she accepted. We had a beer in a nice bar downtown and spent about 2-3 hours talking and both seemed to enjoy ourselves. That was a bit more than a week ago. We agreed on a second date which could not happen until last Sunday. She suggested we go to our city's aquarium which was ok and we ended up drinking a nice hot chocolate in another bar downtown. Once again, I had fun and she seemed to enjoy herself. I also started to try to flirt a bit but with very little success. I remember her mentioning she had a pain somewhere in the back, said to her jokingly that I make very good massages, to which she replayed with a smile something along the line of "clever boy, aren't you? Nice try" and then moved on. I'm still fine at that point. So yesterday, I asked her if she wants to do something this week, she replied, "yeah, why not tonight" and we agreed to watch a movie at her place. During the movie (something funny), she was clearly keeping her distances on the couch. Not too obvious but still and I'm starting to wonder what is up. End of the movie, I still have an hour left before grabbing my bus so we spend some time talking. I'm cold and I see a blanket near me, put it on us both and use that opportunity to get a lot closer to her and I'm greeted with the exact same "clever boy, aren't you". I replied "Do you blame me for trying?" and she once again closed the discussion with a "I guess it's part of the game". The only other "hint" I can remember of was her mentioning being messy with her place followed by a "I'd better warn you before…". And I left with a kiss on the cheek (which in France, is totally normal, we never hug). Sooooo…. Am I just wayyyy overthinking it? Maybe she just needs a lot of time but seriously, I'm starting to question myself at that point… I mean, she would just cut things loose if she was not interested right? Is it a good idea to just be upfront about it with her? Like call her and ask? Another important element in that story, at least in my eyes is that she a going on a one month vacation in Argentina in about a week and a half (she's going alone, sort of a challenge she set up for herself). I feel like I absolutely need to "conclude" something before she goes… Oh btw, we're both 25, so we've both had our own experiences before. I'm just really not used to that kind of super slow pace… And this post as gone way longer than I expected Any advice appreciated! So, I'm going to give a small update on my situation because sometimes, failing shit tests is not the end of the world and things end up rather well (or kinda, more on that later). After the "failed" night at her place, I decided I was going to give me one last chance. In my city, there's this event once a year where they have crazy light animations all over the place, "Fêtes de lumières" if you want to google it, it's pretty cool! So I asked her if she wanted to go with me and after a bit of back and forth texting, she said she was getting back to me on Sunday. Sunday comes and she sends me a message: "what about you come at my place, we watch a movie together and we go out after?" Needless to say, did not miss the opportunity this time (the sign was way too clear anyway), we never went out and spent the evening making out on her couch. We also talked about the first evening and she clearly said I should have made a move We've been able to see each other a couple times this week, including dinner at my place and me sleeping at her (dunno if sleep is the right word there though, cause we did not sleep that much ) So far, so good! Problem is, she is still going on a one month vacation in Argentina and she is leaving tomorrow Today, she said she wanted to have a talk. The quick version was: "Listen, we don't know each other well enough, can't promise you anything while I'm away, don't want you to wait for me because I don't want to break your heart, can't say for sure I'll be willing to continue when I come back because I have no idea in what state of mind I'll be even though I really want to start something long term with someone, if you have opportunities go for it" And that's pretty much it. I said a bunch of stuff but the even shorter version could be: "I don't want to know what you're going to do there, just enjoy your trip. I AM going to wait and I'm willing to take the risk because I do want to spend more time with you" I think we agreed to live our lives for a month and to contact each other then. Soooooooo. I guess my only option is too wait. I enjoy being with this girl. And I know that unless something absolutely miraculous happens until then (and we all know that kind of stuff only belongs to movies), I'll still be single. Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Any advice maybe to keep this month shorter? (that's going to be the longest month of my life...). Don't know what I'm really looking for by posting here, another half sad, half happy story to add to the thread at the very least I guess Good job making progress! Also I like the way she handled her going away for a month. You should definitely enjoy that time as well, don't use the fact that she is coming back as a reason not to meet new people, especially since it isn't a sure thing. The thing is, I met her through online dating. And I used online dating in the first place because I was not able to meet new girls otherwise (circle of friends is rather "closed" and I'm a software engineer so workplace is out ). As I said, sure if a miracle happens and the woman of my life stumbles upon me, I'll go for it but really, I'm not going to go back to online dating, looking at profiles, sending a bunch of messages, getting replies on 1/5 of them etc, it just feels wrong to me... I guess I have a month to learn how to play dota 2 properly, learn the guitar maybe cause I have one and never used it. Send some prayers to god knows who, suck it up and wait a month Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 03:09 Calanthe wrote:On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:
Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Hi. Real life woman here. When I was single, one of my great pleasures in life was getting reasonably drunk while on vacation, flirting shamelessly, and hoping that the flirting ended in sex. What she's setting up here is an out for herself. Sometimes you come back from a break or a vacation and you find yourself thinking, "You know, I'm not really into this." Jobs, people you're dating, hobbies you've taken up, etc. Coming back from a vacation clears your head a little, so sometimes it's easier to admit these things to yourself. If she decides that she doesn't want to see you any more, don't fret. You can't be The One for everyone. I guess you're not helping me a whole lot there haha but thanks anyway for the answer I think I can understand that state of mind, even though I would have prefer it to be different. @rezoacken: I guess you are right, that would have been a better approach. We've already had the talk though and I've already said that I wanted to spend more time with her. I just hope that the "you're free to enjoy yourself and do whatever the fuck you want, as long as I do not know" message was clear... Anyway, a few hours after we left, she sent me her Skype account so I could have some news. I'll try to contact her once a week or something and hope she is in a good state of mind when she comes back
It sounds like a hard situation. You sound more committed to this (young) relationship than she is. Try to see it for what it is: she likes you, you had a great week together, but she is off on an adventure and who knows what will happen. If you "wait" for her, you're bound to get hurt, because it doesn't sound like that is what she is looking for right now. However, if you just let her go this month, it is possible that when she comes back it might very well click again and you can pick things up where you left them. She may really miss you. Have to warn you: it's also possible she has a life changing experience, met a guy and is planning on moving to Argentina. She's off on an adventure, after all.
So let her have that adventure... and be prepared for whatever happens when she comes back.
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On December 15 2013 08:09 Merany wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 03:09 Calanthe wrote:On December 15 2013 03:08 Merany wrote:
Any expert on women psychology maybe to give me some insight as to why she acted that way? Hi. Real life woman here. When I was single, one of my great pleasures in life was getting reasonably drunk while on vacation, flirting shamelessly, and hoping that the flirting ended in sex. What she's setting up here is an out for herself. Sometimes you come back from a break or a vacation and you find yourself thinking, "You know, I'm not really into this." Jobs, people you're dating, hobbies you've taken up, etc. Coming back from a vacation clears your head a little, so sometimes it's easier to admit these things to yourself. If she decides that she doesn't want to see you any more, don't fret. You can't be The One for everyone. I guess you're not helping me a whole lot there haha but thanks anyway for the answer I think I can understand that state of mind, even though I would have prefer it to be different.
Dude, that's what vacation is: people go out, lay on a beach, get drunk, and hook up. That's pretty much expected, but most people also come back from vacation and return to their normal lives. She's going to be out there, most likely hook up with at least a few people, find someone she likes and then come back home. They'll stay in contact for a while, but since they don't live near each other it's more of a "friends" basis that shared some feelings and special moments together.
With that said, she won't all of a sudden lose feelings for you. They'll still be there and will be much more apparent to her when she returns (after not thinking about home very much while on vacation.) As long as you're totally comfortable knowing she's hooked up with others while on vacation and will likely keep speaking with a few of them when she returns, then you won't have a problem. What this means is you shouldn't take things too quick -- just hang out and have fun and after a month or two you guys can give things a shot if everything works out.
Hopefully this doesn't sound too harsh but it's the reality of the situation. I've been there, my friends have been there, your friends have been there, etc.
@rezoacken: I guess you are right, that would have been a better approach. We've already had the talk though and I've already said that I wanted to spend more time with her. I just hope that the "you're free to enjoy yourself and do whatever the fuck you want, as long as I do not know" message was clear... Anyway, a few hours after we left, she sent me her Skype account so I could have some news. I'll try to contact her once a week or something and hope she is in a good state of mind when she comes back
I wouldn't shoot her more than 1 or 2 messages the entire time she's there. Let her initiate things since she's the one that will be living the busy life. If she's thinking about you, she'll message you. Even if she doesn't, she'll still think about you when she returns.
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Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
Imo the best answer was this question: "would you have done it for a friend?" - I think it's a great starting point, but doesn't cover the original question entirely. You might not do it for a friend, but that girl/boy you set your eyes on is someone you would like to be in a serious relationship - let's assume that's the case -, so the little devil (or angel) in your head nags you that you should "work" for it. Like, would you meet with a friend of yours in a terribly rainy day? Maybe not, but by still going to a date/meeting with the one you'd like to get into a romantic relationship under such circumstances, you can show your dedication. Then again, it could also show that you are a moron, and it goes on and on and on... So at the end you are either a proud asshole - not in this particular example -, or a cute doggie on a leash.
It also sucks, that it's much harder to think straight when you are unsuccessful with romantic relationships, because it makes you somewhat desperate, so not even it's hard to act tough, but you are lucky if you can at least be yourself. If I had plenty of women in my life (or few, but they'd been serious relationships, lasting for years), on the 3rd date with the girl I was talking about - she was late an hour, made some retarded teen-drama at her home, so all that she could talk about was that, and she also set up a meeting with one of his gfs, so we had like one hour 1on1 time - I'd just gave her the ultimatum to either drop that drama topic, because she's 100% at fault, so I really don't want to listen to how she can't accept that, especially after making me wait an hour, or I just go home. Also, either postpone the meeting with her gf, or I'm still going home, and then SHE can contact me if she wants sth, after a date like this.
Now obviously it's not what happened, and in hindsight, if I had done that, I might've pulled this through into a relationship. She got to like me as the stubborn, cocky asshole, not the guy who gets waited for an hour, and then dragged along for 2 more, while subtly whining. Which is ironic, because I've done that so I won't make any bad points at her, so I was like "okay, suffer through it, if that's what it takes".
It's a differet scenario if someone is ACTUALLY a nice guy, so even if he remains level-headed - and not guided by his cock - he would've act almost the same.
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Imo the best answer was this question: "would you have done it for a friend?" - I think it's a great starting point, but doesn't cover the original question entirely. You might not do it for a friend, but that girl/boy you set your eyes on is someone you would like to be in a serious relationship - let's assume that's the case -, so the little devil (or angel) in your head nags you that you should "work" for it. Like, would you meet with a friend of yours in a terribly rainy day? Maybe not, but by still going to a date/meeting with the one you'd like to get into a romantic relationship under such circumstances, you can show your dedication. Then again, it could also show that you are a moron, and it goes on and on and on... So at the end you are either a proud asshole - not in this particular example -, or a cute doggie on a leash.
Since you're already that far it would be the time to introduce an addition to the above question. Usually you don't want to stick your wiener into your buddies there are obviously differences.
The whole "Would you it for a (male) friend?" is a perfect rule of thumb for the early stages and for people who are really unsure with what they can and can't get away with without looking like puppies or assholes. The next step is looking at: "How much is each of us investing to make this happen?"
It's a terribly rainy day and you want to date? You both will need to make your way somewhere? Great! Oh, you want to meet at her place and it's just you who has to wade through that shit? "Ugh, you better lure me with cooking something awesome if I have to walk through that weather!" - this idea can be extended to basically everything, it always comes down to not doing shit "for free because you're into her".
The logical next step is throwing all this stuff out of the window because you learned how to do things because that's just how you do things without taking her into account at all. The prime example of this is buying a drink for a girl you don't know well.
Chobo: "I'll buy her a drink so that she has a reason to talk to me for a bit longer."
Hasu: "I'll buy her a drink and made clear that this is because of xyz or that the next round is on her."
Gosu: "I went to the bar because I was thirsty, might as well bring her a drink along. Why would I worry about getting anything back? Either she's as cool as me and gets the next round or I don't want to spend a lot more time with her anyway."
Every single case is about the exact same physical motion but the frames and mindsets are completely different. Those basic ideas can be extended to almost anything. Both 2+3 are usually fine for anything flirty, just from my own experience I feel that the last step happens automatically once you're confident enough and present strong enough frames by default.
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On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
Imo the best answer was this question: "would you have done it for a friend?" - I think it's a great starting point, but doesn't cover the original question entirely. You might not do it for a friend, but that girl/boy you set your eyes on is someone you would like to be in a serious relationship - let's assume that's the case -, so the little devil (or angel) in your head nags you that you should "work" for it. Like, would you meet with a friend of yours in a terribly rainy day? Maybe not, but by still going to a date/meeting with the one you'd like to get into a romantic relationship under such circumstances, you can show your dedication. Then again, it could also show that you are a moron, and it goes on and on and on... So at the end you are either a proud asshole - not in this particular example -, or a cute doggie on a leash.
It also sucks, that it's much harder to think straight when you are unsuccessful with romantic relationships, because it makes you somewhat desperate, so not even it's hard to act tough, but you are lucky if you can at least be yourself. If I had plenty of women in my life (or few, but they'd been serious relationships, lasting for years), on the 3rd date with the girl I was talking about - she was late an hour, made some retarded teen-drama at her home, so all that she could talk about was that, and she also set up a meeting with one of his gfs, so we had like one hour 1on1 time - I'd just gave her the ultimatum to either drop that drama topic, because she's 100% at fault, so I really don't want to listen to how she can't accept that, especially after making me wait an hour, or I just go home. Also, either postpone the meeting with her gf, or I'm still going home, and then SHE can contact me if she wants sth, after a date like this.
Now obviously it's not what happened, and in hindsight, if I had done that, I might've pulled this through into a relationship. She got to like me as the stubborn, cocky asshole, not the guy who gets waited for an hour, and then dragged along for 2 more, while subtly whining. Which is ironic, because I've done that so I won't make any bad points at her, so I was like "okay, suffer through it, if that's what it takes".
It's a differet scenario if someone is ACTUALLY a nice guy, so even if he remains level-headed - and not guided by his cock - he would've act almost the same.
NB: Some generalization below and in the end it's only my opinion, so read it for what it's worth.
You're mostly right in my opinion and I'd say it's a good thing you recognize those stuff. I'd just add another possible reason why we have that tendency to be obsequious (which I hope is the right word for this situation, english not being my primary language).
It's easy. It looks like a simple plan: meet girl => do her will => she recognizes how useful we are => she falls in love => we are together. It's what we have been told hundred of times while growing up and it looks like a logical follow up of event so we just do that because we understand the plan and it's easy to pull off. Bowing down is a lot easier than standing straight. This thread has some proof of such a thing: "I won't follow that advice, it sounds too hard for me, I'll just keep being her puppy".
Sadly, the logic involved is flawed at one critical point: "she recognizes how useful we are => she falls in love". This logical implication just isn't true. Here is what a more logical implication "she recognizes how useful we are => she keeps us around". And some would say the next step is the dreaded "friendzone". I just don't like that word because to me it's more of a orbitzone or servantzone than a true friendzone.
That flawed implication comes in my opinion from a bad understanding of what we are attracted to or in other words the process of "falling for someone". Favors and gifts do not make someone attractive. At a reasonable amount they don't necessarily make us less attractive but by themselves they certainly are insufficient. What we fall for are a strong personality, attractive traits (funny, cleverness, charisma, leadership etc), beauty. Both men and women, everyone at different degrees but that's not the point.
So to conclude, the purpose isn't really to "stop being nice". It's to display an attractive personality, and servitude isn't in that category. But it's important to recognize that it's opposite "being a bad person" isn't either. Don't take the easy route of doing somebody's will, don't take the harder but almost equally flawed route of pissing somebody. Take the harder but way more fulfilling route of affirming your own self and realizing that when people say "be yourself" what you should hear is "be your strong self".
+ Show Spoiler +I'd say r.Evo's previous post uses down to earth examples of such a mindset.
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I am all kinds of a dumbass. that is all.
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On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:
Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
You want to get laid, so you have to make some concessions. But you always want to pull her over to your side of the line more than you move over to hers. Always radiate in a way that you don't mind being nice and compassionate, but that whenever she tries to put you on a leash, that you MIGHT be gone.
An example of something I did in the past:
Some girl once made me wait in the rain for an hour, (I moved somewhere inside because standing in the rain is just retarded). By the time she showed up I was, rightfully so, pissed off. I told her in a very cocky way that it's not very nice of her to make me wait that long, but that she still deserved to have a nice date (I never give any reasons or explanations why she would deserve a good date. Just tell her and then go talk about other shit). So I took her to a different bar (because I know my way around you know), and gave her a very enjoyable date for about 25 minutes, after which I sayd something along the lines of "Well was a great date, wish we had more time, I'll see you next time!". Make sure you're gone before she realizes that you basically just ditched her, but do extend her the line for a possible next date.
On the next date, I was about 15 minutes late BUT I bought her flowers from a flower shop.. I told her literally "Sorry I'm 4 minutes late, I couldnt find the perfect ribbon for these handpicked flowers". She knew I was just fucking with her, but she was still getting flowers, a romantic date, she didnt feel guilty for making me wait cuz I'd do the same to her, but she did knew that if she ever tried to put me on a leash too much, that I'd be gone. Makes dating more exciting for her as well, as it turns into a game of "how far can we go?".
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On December 16 2013 23:30 MightyBill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:
Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
You want to get laid, so you have to make some concessions. But you always want to pull her over to your side of the line more than you move over to hers. Always radiate in a way that you don't mind being nice and compassionate, but that whenever she tries to put you on a leash, that you MIGHT be gone. An example of something I did in the past: Some girl once made me wait in the rain for an hour, (I moved somewhere inside because standing in the rain is just retarded). By the time she showed up I was, rightfully so, pissed off. I told her in a very cocky way that it's not very nice of her to make me wait that long, but that she still deserved to have a nice date (I never give any reasons or explanations why she would deserve a good date. Just tell her and then go talk about other shit). So I took her to a different bar (because I know my way around you know), and gave her a very enjoyable date for about 25 minutes, after which I sayd something along the lines of "Well was a great date, wish we had more time, I'll see you next time!". Make sure you're gone before she realizes that you basically just ditched her, but do extend her the line for a possible next date. On the next date, I was about 15 minutes late BUT I bought her flowers from a flower shop.. I told her literally "Sorry I'm 4 minutes late, I couldnt find the perfect ribbon for these handpicked flowers". She knew I was just fucking with her, but she was still getting flowers, a romantic date, she didnt feel guilty for making me wait cuz I'd do the same to her, but she did knew that if she ever tried to put me on a leash too much, that I'd be gone. Makes dating more exciting for her as well, as it turns into a game of "how far can we go?".
I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound like very good advice. And your anecdote doesn't really help either. It sounds like you decided to be a dick on purpose (on the second date), but brought flowers to make it up. The way you make it sound is that you and the girl end up trying to get away with pushing the other one to the limit, which doesn't sound like fun, or a successful relationship (to me).
If a girl were to make me wait more than 10 minutes, I'd phone. If she doesn't pick up, or she does and says she's on her way, but still isn't there for another 10 minutes, I'd leave. Waiting for an hour is ridiculous.
If, however, I had waited it out, I'd give the date a chance, and not sabotage it after 25 mins. The idea of a date is to get to know a girl, and let her get to know you, not one-upmanship. Be all the alpha male you want, but that sounds more like you were intentionally being a dick, rather than showing her you don't put up with her shit (because really, you waited for an hour in the rain, so you clearly did put up with her shit).
It may have worked out well between you and that girl, and I'm glad. You seem to have some fond memories of it at least, which is nice. However, it doesn't sound like good general advice. I'd stick with r.Evo and rezoacken's posts for advice on what "change" is acceptable.
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On December 16 2013 23:30 MightyBill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:
Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
You want to get laid, so you have to make some concessions. But you always want to pull her over to your side of the line more than you move over to hers. Always radiate in a way that you don't mind being nice and compassionate, but that whenever she tries to put you on a leash, that you MIGHT be gone. An example of something I did in the past: Some girl once made me wait in the rain for an hour, (I moved somewhere inside because standing in the rain is just retarded). By the time she showed up I was, rightfully so, pissed off. I told her in a very cocky way that it's not very nice of her to make me wait that long, but that she still deserved to have a nice date (I never give any reasons or explanations why she would deserve a good date. Just tell her and then go talk about other shit). So I took her to a different bar (because I know my way around you know), and gave her a very enjoyable date for about 25 minutes, after which I sayd something along the lines of "Well was a great date, wish we had more time, I'll see you next time!". Make sure you're gone before she realizes that you basically just ditched her, but do extend her the line for a possible next date. On the next date, I was about 15 minutes late BUT I bought her flowers from a flower shop.. I told her literally "Sorry I'm 4 minutes late, I couldnt find the perfect ribbon for these handpicked flowers". She knew I was just fucking with her, but she was still getting flowers, a romantic date, she didnt feel guilty for making me wait cuz I'd do the same to her, but she did knew that if she ever tried to put me on a leash too much, that I'd be gone. Makes dating more exciting for her as well, as it turns into a game of "how far can we go?".
Lol worst advice ever. Sounds like you're caught up in playing games with girls, which is stupid because games are for teenagers. When you play games with girls like this they won't just stop and be like okay he won, they will try to one up you and then you try to one up her and etc.... just for "control" in the relationship.
Every time I start to date a girl I tell them straight up that I'm not down to play any stupid games. I tell them I send message replies when I feel like it instead of reading then waiting so I don't seem desperate. I just act like myself not trying to be anyone I'm not or win some sort of stupid mind game so I wear "the pants" in the relationship. Girls really respect me when I say things like this to them because honestly they aren't down to play games either. It shows them that I'm confident in myself and I don't need to act like a dick to give myself an ego boost. That being said obviously don't become some lost love puppy that follows her around, be a man, but you don't need to act like a dick to do that. This concept of "bringing her over to your side of the line" is just petty teenage romance grow up lol.
And to be honest from my own experience and what I see from my friends interactions with girls, girls often win these mind games because at the end of the day, they are the one who decide when you are getting laid and when you don't because they claim to be less horny then men(which is a lie).
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Answer this question for me:
How the heck do you find out a girl is single or not without hinting you want to go out with her?
1. If shes not single, then friends is fine (don't want to hurt friendship that's why I don't want to hint)
2. If she is single, then make the move.
PS: I will not hire a Private Investigator.
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Why would showing interest make it so you can't be friends?
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On December 17 2013 01:32 lantz wrote:
Answer this question for me:
How the heck do you find out a girl is single or not without hinting you want to go out with her?
1. If shes not single, then friends is fine (don't want to hurt friendship that's why I don't want to hint)
2. If she is single, then make the move.
PS: I will not hire a Private Investigator.
Ask her to go out for drinks with you at a place with a fairly intimate setting. If she says yes and goes with you she is most likely single and you have a date. If she says no or she asks to go somewhere that is much less romantic or more friendly instead you have your answer.
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On December 17 2013 01:38 Najda wrote:
Why would showing interest make it so you can't be friends?
Well we are friends now but if I show interest in a relationship then it might change how she views me
I realize it's probably all in my mind that I think girls think this way. But it's extremely hard to figure out if someone is single or not without being direct about it (which I would usually do if it was some random girl at a bar or something).
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She's your friend but you don't know if she's single ? :X
Usually non-single people speak about their boy/girlfriend from time to time. Especially when it's a significant relationship.
I don't know... maybe talk to your "friend". Or assume she doesn't and if she does she'll raise it up at some point.
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How Id find out: Just ask her. If she's single respond with a yoda voice saying: "hmmm interesting" and go hang out with her. If she's dating someone I'd ball my fist and say damnit, followed by an surprised innocent look asking her: "did I just say that out loud?"
Anyway I laugh a lot out loud which is hard to radiate on these forums. Some of the stuff I said here sounds unfriendly to some random betas, but my smile makes up for it to the ladies. Just be yourself and have a good time, only real advise I could ever give :D
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On December 17 2013 01:26 FreedomMurder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:30 MightyBill wrote:On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:
Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
You want to get laid, so you have to make some concessions. But you always want to pull her over to your side of the line more than you move over to hers. Always radiate in a way that you don't mind being nice and compassionate, but that whenever she tries to put you on a leash, that you MIGHT be gone. An example of something I did in the past: Some girl once made me wait in the rain for an hour, (I moved somewhere inside because standing in the rain is just retarded). By the time she showed up I was, rightfully so, pissed off. I told her in a very cocky way that it's not very nice of her to make me wait that long, but that she still deserved to have a nice date (I never give any reasons or explanations why she would deserve a good date. Just tell her and then go talk about other shit). So I took her to a different bar (because I know my way around you know), and gave her a very enjoyable date for about 25 minutes, after which I sayd something along the lines of "Well was a great date, wish we had more time, I'll see you next time!". Make sure you're gone before she realizes that you basically just ditched her, but do extend her the line for a possible next date. On the next date, I was about 15 minutes late BUT I bought her flowers from a flower shop.. I told her literally "Sorry I'm 4 minutes late, I couldnt find the perfect ribbon for these handpicked flowers". She knew I was just fucking with her, but she was still getting flowers, a romantic date, she didnt feel guilty for making me wait cuz I'd do the same to her, but she did knew that if she ever tried to put me on a leash too much, that I'd be gone. Makes dating more exciting for her as well, as it turns into a game of "how far can we go?". Lol worst advice ever. Sounds like you're caught up in playing games with girls, which is stupid because games are for teenagers. When you play games with girls like this they won't just stop and be like okay he won, they will try to one up you and then you try to one up her and etc.... just for "control" in the relationship. Every time I start to date a girl I tell them straight up that I'm not down to play any stupid games. I tell them I send message replies when I feel like it instead of reading then waiting so I don't seem desperate. I just act like myself not trying to be anyone I'm not or win some sort of stupid mind game so I wear "the pants" in the relationship. Girls really respect me when I say things like this to them because honestly they aren't down to play games either. It shows them that I'm confident in myself and I don't need to act like a dick to give myself an ego boost. That being said obviously don't become some lost love puppy that follows her around, be a man, but you don't need to act like a dick to do that. This concept of "bringing her over to your side of the line" is just petty teenage romance grow up lol. And to be honest from my own experience and what I see from my friends interactions with girls, girls often win these mind games because at the end of the day, they are the one who decide when you are getting laid and when you don't because they claim to be less horny then men(which is a lie).
Games are for everyone.
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On December 17 2013 01:32 lantz wrote:
Answer this question for me:
How the heck do you find out a girl is single or not without hinting you want to go out with her?
1. If shes not single, then friends is fine (don't want to hurt friendship that's why I don't want to hint)
2. If she is single, then make the move.
PS: I will not hire a Private Investigator.
Look on facebook? That almost always works for me.
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On December 17 2013 06:43 MightyBill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 01:26 FreedomMurder wrote:On December 16 2013 23:30 MightyBill wrote:On December 16 2013 03:11 Volband wrote:
Recollecting my thoughts and reading back others' posts as well, the question that striked me was how much change is acceptable around your date?
You want to get laid, so you have to make some concessions. But you always want to pull her over to your side of the line more than you move over to hers. Always radiate in a way that you don't mind being nice and compassionate, but that whenever she tries to put you on a leash, that you MIGHT be gone. An example of something I did in the past: Some girl once made me wait in the rain for an hour, (I moved somewhere inside because standing in the rain is just retarded). By the time she showed up I was, rightfully so, pissed off. I told her in a very cocky way that it's not very nice of her to make me wait that long, but that she still deserved to have a nice date (I never give any reasons or explanations why she would deserve a good date. Just tell her and then go talk about other shit). So I took her to a different bar (because I know my way around you know), and gave her a very enjoyable date for about 25 minutes, after which I sayd something along the lines of "Well was a great date, wish we had more time, I'll see you next time!". Make sure you're gone before she realizes that you basically just ditched her, but do extend her the line for a possible next date. On the next date, I was about 15 minutes late BUT I bought her flowers from a flower shop.. I told her literally "Sorry I'm 4 minutes late, I couldnt find the perfect ribbon for these handpicked flowers". She knew I was just fucking with her, but she was still getting flowers, a romantic date, she didnt feel guilty for making me wait cuz I'd do the same to her, but she did knew that if she ever tried to put me on a leash too much, that I'd be gone. Makes dating more exciting for her as well, as it turns into a game of "how far can we go?". Lol worst advice ever. Sounds like you're caught up in playing games with girls, which is stupid because games are for teenagers. When you play games with girls like this they won't just stop and be like okay he won, they will try to one up you and then you try to one up her and etc.... just for "control" in the relationship. Every time I start to date a girl I tell them straight up that I'm not down to play any stupid games. I tell them I send message replies when I feel like it instead of reading then waiting so I don't seem desperate. I just act like myself not trying to be anyone I'm not or win some sort of stupid mind game so I wear "the pants" in the relationship. Girls really respect me when I say things like this to them because honestly they aren't down to play games either. It shows them that I'm confident in myself and I don't need to act like a dick to give myself an ego boost. That being said obviously don't become some lost love puppy that follows her around, be a man, but you don't need to act like a dick to do that. This concept of "bringing her over to your side of the line" is just petty teenage romance grow up lol. And to be honest from my own experience and what I see from my friends interactions with girls, girls often win these mind games because at the end of the day, they are the one who decide when you are getting laid and when you don't because they claim to be less horny then men(which is a lie). Games are for everyone.
You are bad at advice, you should refrain from sharing it. Games are horrible, and most genuine women don't want to deal with that bullshit. If you're after girls, go ahead and play games. If you want a woman, be straightforward, upfront, and don't bother with the bullshit.
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EPT
