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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On April 25 2013 04:22 sunprince wrote:
If you provide additional information, then perhaps we could help you with that.
You were the giver of good advice I quoted on my edit.
I like your "bettering yourself" advice enough. All is said. I'm not being very serious here : I'm not desperate about me failing, it's generally going up at the moment. Plus I'm 32, I had my good and bad times.
Thanks for offer though, I'll keep that in mind for potential future use.
Cheers!
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On April 25 2013 04:09 TomatoShark wrote:
any advice for me im a 29 year old virgin and just gave up on dating theres nobody for me.
Low self-esteem, obviously not very bright, not lucky for the past 15 years, implying you're easy to look at either.
I'd probably give up, get a cat, get fat and go to a prostitute once a week.
Your best bet is being handsome. Good looking guys get away with being dumb, mean and utterly uninteresting.
Not the case? No problem, as long as you are social and self-confident.
Not the case either? No problem, as long as you are interesting and exceptional in any kind of field.
Not the case either? Well, the last resort is money. You're an utterly despicable human being, ugly, dumb, possibly even fat?
Money will help people forget those facts.
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On April 25 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 04:09 TomatoShark wrote:
any advice for me im a 29 year old virgin and just gave up on dating theres nobody for me. Low self-esteem, obviously not very bright, not lucky for the past 15 years, implying you're easy to look at either. I'd probably give up, get a cat, get fat and go to a prostitute once a week. Your best bet is being handsome. Good looking guys get away with being dumb, mean and utterly uninteresting. Not the case? No problem, as long as you are social and self-confident. Not the case either? No problem, as long as you are interesting and exceptional in any kind of field. Not the case either? Well, the last resort is money. You're an utterly despicable human being, ugly, dumb, possibly even fat? Money will help people forget those facts.
I don't find myself too attractive yet i've dated/banged some pretty decent looking girls.
It's all about confidence man
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On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react?
If a girl starts ignoring me it can mean two things for me: shes just not interested, or shes trying to play some game or whatever. My reaction to both is go fuck yourself.
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On April 25 2013 11:40 B.I.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react? If a girl starts ignoring me it can mean two things for me: shes just not interested, or shes trying to play some game or whatever. My reaction to both is go fuck yourself.
If she starts ignoring you it means yeah she isnt interested. or you need to ignore her(which you should if shes ignoring you anyway)
It'll work out as either, she wasnt interested and goes the fuck on somewhere, or she hates being ignored and you get in her pants
either one of those are a possible outcome
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Copy pasta from reddit but:
*Warning! Have yet to utilize these skills (hard with work and what not). No personal experience. Sad loser myself.
If you want to end the drought game, then what you should try to do is befriend, or at least get in contact, with as MANY as females as possible. Keep in touch with them lightly (get a drink, hangout etc...) but DO NOT INVEST in just ONE person (as in stop keeping in contact with other females. Increases your chance blah blah blah statistics blah blah. Theoretically should work (i am sure others can attest to this idea).
Also try to make a move within two weeks (anything longer and you risk sailing your ship into the friend zone).
edit:
other tips from i have heard of:
keep clean and groom
Skin quality apparently is a high mark for attractiveness
stay somewhat fit (chest should stick out more than stomach). You need to start considering training if your stomach protudes past chest
keep conversations flowing BUT also know when to value quiet (obviously use judgment if date is tense or not because it doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing).
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quite right arb, but I am not a person who is patient enough for wasting time on bullshit like ignoring games.
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On April 25 2013 12:31 B.I.G. wrote:
quite right arb, but I am not a person who is patient enough for wasting time on bullshit like ignoring games.
Well ignore her, and try to find someone else. If she doesnt like you ignoring you and wants you she should come back, then you can decide if you wanna go for her or someone else(or just try again with her if you havent found someone)
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On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react?
So , everyone point is, the girl should talk to the guy?
The guy will most probably do nothing? then just give up?
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On April 25 2013 14:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react? So , everyone point is, the girl should talk to the guy? The guy will most probably do nothing? then just give up?
Yes. For whatever reason she is ignoring you.
Whichever reason it is, your answer is to do nothing and ignore her right back.
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On April 25 2013 14:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react? So , everyone point is, the girl should talk to the guy? The guy will most probably do nothing? then just give up?
It kinda depends on the situation - why specifically is she ignoring you?
Also, you might want to remember that what you should do can also vary depending on where you are from. I for one have dated Scandinavian (Danish/Swedish/Norwegian), Italian, Swiss and American girls. The differences inside of Europe were pretty big and going to the US I really had to rethink how to tackle a lot of situations. There are however some things which applies internationally, so at the end of the day - judge for yourself.
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On April 25 2013 14:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react? So , everyone point is, the girl should talk to the guy? The guy will most probably do nothing? then just give up?
God damnit, why am i posting a second time in this thread.
"the girl" should know what she wants. If the goal is to punish the boy and make him change in a way, but definetely continue the relationship, then, "the girl" just failed. If she wants tu hurt him as much as possible, then she succeeded.
The thing is, the boy can react in two different ways. He can humiliate himself by essentially begging and try to "win "the girl" back" by this. He might succeed, as "the girl" might have the first mentioned agenda, but it will be a very shallow victory for him. Or he gives up. And he won't project the failure on himself in this case. Cause, no matter what he did, it was "the girl" who denied any real way of working things out.
So, if he comes back, he will have lost something in the relationship, if he does not, then he is gone anyway.
If anybody has a problem, not talking about it is no solution. And if he does not know what he did wrong, but feels punished for it, he might be an idiot, but he definetely won't improve.
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On April 25 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 04:09 TomatoShark wrote:
any advice for me im a 29 year old virgin and just gave up on dating theres nobody for me. Low self-esteem, obviously not very bright, not lucky for the past 15 years, implying you're easy to look at either. I'd probably give up, get a cat, get fat and go to a prostitute once a week. Your best bet is being handsome. Good looking guys get away with being dumb, mean and utterly uninteresting. Not the case? No problem, as long as you are social and self-confident. Not the case either? No problem, as long as you are interesting and exceptional in any kind of field. Not the case either? Well, the last resort is money. You're an utterly despicable human being, ugly, dumb, possibly even fat? Money will help people forget those facts.
My head is full of fuck. He repeated the same question 6 times already? Wth.
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On April 25 2013 14:50 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 14:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:On April 24 2013 19:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ask everyone something,
If a girl ignore a guy, because a guy do something stupid. (He is idiot and doesn't know it)
And then puzzle, why does the girl ignore him.
And then few days later, sms her , call her. Internet text her, all ignored.
Now the guy seems to do nothing right now...
I wan 2 ask,
Is it the girl that went too far? Should she relax, calm down and text him?
Or she should wait for a while?
And I hope for men input too,
What would you do, if I put you into this situation?
or maybe, how r u feeling if u experience this? How u will react? So , everyone point is, the girl should talk to the guy? The guy will most probably do nothing? then just give up? Yes. For whatever reason she is ignoring you. Whichever reason it is, your answer is to do nothing and ignore her right back.
When a girl ignores you, it's a shit test. It's to see if you react by desperately trying to get her attention back.
Simple solution is to treat her the same way that she's treating you. In doing so, it demonstrates that you have the self-respect not to treat her nicely unless she's doing the same to you.
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On April 25 2013 11:40 B.I.G. wrote:
If a girl starts ignoring me it can mean two things for me: shes just not interested, or shes trying to play some game or whatever. My reaction to both is go fuck yourself.
Couldn't have said it any better
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On April 25 2013 23:24 DeVx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 11:40 B.I.G. wrote:
If a girl starts ignoring me it can mean two things for me: shes just not interested, or shes trying to play some game or whatever. My reaction to both is go fuck yourself. Couldn't have said it any better
Thats a little rude if she is not interested. Ok for the second...
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Jesus there's a lot of bullshit in here.
List of things that it could mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They genuinely don't care about you, are not attracted to you, and don't want to make an effort for you.
List of things that it does NOT mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They ACTUALLY like you but it's just a test to see how you react
-They are just 'playing games'
-They are doing it specifically to hurt you (possibly despite actually likeing you at the same time!)
-They are playing 'hard to get' to make you want them more
-They are toying with your emotions to boost their self esteem
The fact is, if you are genuinely interested in someone do you ignore them? Of course not. And no one else does either. If you were ignoring someone because you don't like them, would you see it as a test to see what happens? Of course not.
The problem is that there is a pretty big disconnect between peoples perceptions of themselves, what they think people are attracted to, and reality. It's like that whole "nice guys finish last" and "friendzone" thing. It's utter shit. Nobody doesn't date someone because they are "too nice" and "friendzone" isn't a real thing either.
In reality, most people want someone who is nice, friendly, treats them well, and looks good and that they can get on well with. Maybe some other stuff too but this is your core.
When you see girls dating "assholes" just because they are "on the sports team and super cocky" and they just don't realise that "you're actually a nice guy who will treat them well" you need to stop, take a breather, and seriously consider how you come off.
A good exercise: take a look at a dating site, but look at the guys on there. Try to find someone roughly similar to yourself. OKCupid. Then read through their profile again. Thoroughy. Okcupid has tons of questions too so it's great for this. Ask yourself if you would date this person.
Chances are, without looking too far, the answer would be no. It's not hard to find a "I believe women have an obligation to shave their legs" or a "I believe that under some circumstances, people are obligated to have sex with you" etc etc. This isn't as rare as you think, and it probably applies to you too. Hell, let's be honest, it applies to all of us, of either gender. No one is an angel. The point is, if you describe yourself as a nice guy, you better had be. In reality you're probably just as much of an asshole as "that jock who the girl you like is dating" but in different ways. Obviously you don't realise you're an asshole, no one does. Not even the asshole jocks.
The point is, if you're going to be an asshole, as we all are, then other things are important. At least for first impressions. Unless you're an angel, things like looks DO matter, when you arn't flawless. Then ask yourself how long it takes you to get ready in the morning. How long do you spend working on your appearance?
The fact is (and I realise we're talking in huge sweeping generalisations here, there are always exceptions) the average girl that you want to date cares a lot more about her apperance than you do. If you are being ignored or can't find people, for the love of god, do something about how you look. Makeup is not only for girls. Spending a long time choosing clothes is not just for girls. Hell, if anything it's MORE important for guys. If you get up on a morning, grab a pair of jeans and the first tshirt from the pile, there is a girl out there somewhere who will love you for it, but you can't expect to be choosy.
If you make yourself look great, you'll have more confidence etc etc, it'll do you wonders and soon you'll find people don't ignore you or "play games" quite so much. Going to the gym and stuff twice a week doesn't cut it either. Think of a girl with a great body, in sweatpants and a hoody, without having spent any time on her makeup, her hair, without having cleansed and moisturised her skin for the past 20 years so it's kind of icky. Is that the kind of person you go wild for? Then why would anyone go wild for you doing the same thing.
Disclaimer: The bit about people not playing games only applies to people with a mental age over 20. School dramas are school dramas.
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"Ignoring someone" in the dating context is usually confused with "having a life" aka the opposite of "running after him/her 24/7". You're making that exact same mistake. Similar to how you're confusing "getting friendzoned" or "being too nice" with "not having enough balls to escalate towards a relationship".
Another thing that's commonly referred to as "ignoring" is what the pickup scene refers to as "freeze outs". Even though misapplied in almost all cases because people don't seem to grasp the concept they're quite effective when applied correctly. The idea here being is that if the girl (in a scenario where she is clearly already interested) showed a behaviour you don't tolerate you ignore her until she does her part to fixing the situation.
Example: You had two great dates, you're sure she is interested in you and for the third date she doesn't show up. You call her a couple of minutes after the time you decided upon but she doesn't answer. You leave/play starcraft/call your best buddy to do something instead. An hour later she calls you back and tells you that she's terribly sorry because something came up and she couldn't inform you about that in time.
Classy scenario for a great freeze-out. Calling her to arrange another date quickly afterwards risks coming off as clingy and might quickly failcascade into investing much more than she does. If you're confident that she is interested in you and she realizes what she did couldn't be fixed with a quick and simple "ups sorry" she will contact you and you've properly established what you expect from her in the initial scenario without making big drama about it.
"Ignoring" someone because you had something better to do and "ignoring someone" because they did something that pissed you off (the latter with an open mind to them solving the situation) are completely natural, not just when it comes to relationships.
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On April 25 2013 23:53 Misaka wrote:
Jesus there's a lot of bullshit in here.
List of things that it could mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They genuinely don't care about you, are not attracted to you, and don't want to make an effort for you.
List of things that it does NOT mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They ACTUALLY like you but it's just a test to see how you react
-They are just 'playing games'
-They are doing it specifically to hurt you (possibly despite actually likeing you at the same time!)
-They are playing 'hard to get' to make you want them more
-They are toying with your emotions to boost their self esteem
The fact is, if you are genuinely interested in someone do you ignore them? Of course not. And no one else does either. If you were ignoring someone because you don't like them, would you see it as a test to see what happens? Of course not.
The problem is that there is a pretty big disconnect between peoples perceptions of themselves, what they think people are attracted to, and reality. It's like that whole "nice guys finish last" and "friendzone" thing. It's utter shit. Nobody doesn't date someone because they are "too nice" and "friendzone" isn't a real thing either.
In reality, most people want someone who is nice, friendly, treats them well, and looks good and that they can get on well with. Maybe some other stuff too but this is your core.
When you see girls dating "assholes" just because they are "on the sports team and super cocky" and they just don't realise that "you're actually a nice guy who will treat them well" you need to stop, take a breather, and seriously consider how you come off.
A good exercise: take a look at a dating site, but look at the guys on there. Try to find someone roughly similar to yourself. OKCupid. Then read through their profile again. Thoroughy. Okcupid has tons of questions too so it's great for this. Ask yourself if you would date this person.
Chances are, without looking too far, the answer would be no. It's not hard to find a "I believe women have an obligation to shave their legs" or a "I believe that under some circumstances, people are obligated to have sex with you" etc etc. This isn't as rare as you think, and it probably applies to you too. Hell, let's be honest, it applies to all of us, of either gender. No one is an angel. The point is, if you describe yourself as a nice guy, you better had be. In reality you're probably just as much of an asshole as "that jock who the girl you like is dating" but in different ways. Obviously you don't realise you're an asshole, no one does. Not even the asshole jocks.
The point is, if you're going to be an asshole, as we all are, then other things are important. At least for first impressions. Unless you're an angel, things like looks DO matter, when you arn't flawless. Then ask yourself how long it takes you to get ready in the morning. How long do you spend working on your appearance?
The fact is (and I realise we're talking in huge sweeping generalisations here, there are always exceptions) the average girl that you want to date cares a lot more about her apperance than you do. If you are being ignored or can't find people, for the love of god, do something about how you look. Makeup is not only for girls. Spending a long time choosing clothes is not just for girls. Hell, if anything it's MORE important for guys. If you get up on a morning, grab a pair of jeans and the first tshirt from the pile, there is a girl out there somewhere who will love you for it, but you can't expect to be choosy.
If you make yourself look great, you'll have more confidence etc etc, it'll do you wonders and soon you'll find people don't ignore you or "play games" quite so much. Going to the gym and stuff twice a week doesn't cut it either. Think of a girl with a great body, in sweatpants and a hoody, without having spent any time on her makeup, her hair, without having cleansed and moisturised her skin for the past 20 years so it's kind of icky. Is that the kind of person you go wild for? Then why would anyone go wild for you doing the same thing.
Disclaimer: The bit about people not playing games only applies to people with a mental age over 20. School dramas are school dramas.
http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/1d29vc/im_an_american_who_has_only_had_sex_with/c9m94fq This literally counteracts you 100% in the case of Japan at the least. For the rest of the countries I can speak from personal experience people do play these games.
And the second part is a pretty good point. The way I've seen it is like this: guys spend more time doing long term things for their attractiveness(working out, getting activities, etc.) and girls spend more time doing daily things for their attractiveness(clothes, makeup). A lot of girls do the long term things to look better. There's no reason guys can't do the daily things to look better as well.
And for myself, a chick with a great bod and poor self-care would be awesome other than the unclean skin.
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On April 25 2013 23:53 Misaka wrote:
Jesus there's a lot of bullshit in here.
List of things that it could mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They genuinely don't care about you, are not attracted to you, and don't want to make an effort for you.
List of things that it does NOT mean if someone is ignoring you:
-They ACTUALLY like you but it's just a test to see how you react
-They are just 'playing games'
-They are doing it specifically to hurt you (possibly despite actually likeing you at the same time!)
-They are playing 'hard to get' to make you want them more
-They are toying with your emotions to boost their self esteem
The fact is, if you are genuinely interested in someone do you ignore them? Of course not. And no one else does either. If you were ignoring someone because you don't like them, would you see it as a test to see what happens? Of course not.
The problem is that there is a pretty big disconnect between peoples perceptions of themselves, what they think people are attracted to, and reality. It's like that whole "nice guys finish last" and "friendzone" thing. It's utter shit. Nobody doesn't date someone because they are "too nice" and "friendzone" isn't a real thing either.
In reality, most people want someone who is nice, friendly, treats them well, and looks good and that they can get on well with. Maybe some other stuff too but this is your core.
When you see girls dating "assholes" just because they are "on the sports team and super cocky" and they just don't realise that "you're actually a nice guy who will treat them well" you need to stop, take a breather, and seriously consider how you come off.
A good exercise: take a look at a dating site, but look at the guys on there. Try to find someone roughly similar to yourself. OKCupid. Then read through their profile again. Thoroughy. Okcupid has tons of questions too so it's great for this. Ask yourself if you would date this person.
Chances are, without looking too far, the answer would be no. It's not hard to find a "I believe women have an obligation to shave their legs" or a "I believe that under some circumstances, people are obligated to have sex with you" etc etc. This isn't as rare as you think, and it probably applies to you too. Hell, let's be honest, it applies to all of us, of either gender. No one is an angel. The point is, if you describe yourself as a nice guy, you better had be. In reality you're probably just as much of an asshole as "that jock who the girl you like is dating" but in different ways. Obviously you don't realise you're an asshole, no one does. Not even the asshole jocks.
The point is, if you're going to be an asshole, as we all are, then other things are important. At least for first impressions. Unless you're an angel, things like looks DO matter, when you arn't flawless. Then ask yourself how long it takes you to get ready in the morning. How long do you spend working on your appearance?
The fact is (and I realise we're talking in huge sweeping generalisations here, there are always exceptions) the average girl that you want to date cares a lot more about her apperance than you do. If you are being ignored or can't find people, for the love of god, do something about how you look. Makeup is not only for girls. Spending a long time choosing clothes is not just for girls. Hell, if anything it's MORE important for guys. If you get up on a morning, grab a pair of jeans and the first tshirt from the pile, there is a girl out there somewhere who will love you for it, but you can't expect to be choosy.
If you make yourself look great, you'll have more confidence etc etc, it'll do you wonders and soon you'll find people don't ignore you or "play games" quite so much. Going to the gym and stuff twice a week doesn't cut it either. Think of a girl with a great body, in sweatpants and a hoody, without having spent any time on her makeup, her hair, without having cleansed and moisturised her skin for the past 20 years so it's kind of icky. Is that the kind of person you go wild for? Then why would anyone go wild for you doing the same thing.
Disclaimer: The bit about people not playing games only applies to people with a mental age over 20. School dramas are school dramas.
You make a lot of valid points and, if not, precised. I will never play the "hard to get" with a girl. If she blows me off or breaks my heart just to see what reaction she can get out of me (this happened constantly with my 1st succubus of a gf), then she obviously hasn't matured the fuck up and is just a plain sociopath. Be with someone who wants to be with you and doesn't play games with you.
The best advice I can give from a guy like me who's been cheated on twice, been used as a catch three times, and had an ex-gf pursue my ex-bestfriend, don't lost hope on finding someone. There will be down falls and you'll feel like you've hit bottom, but if there's one thing I've learned throughout all this, focus on yourself and others will notice. Oh ya and reading what Miska wrote. I get the feeling he's either a love guru or has a PhD in sociology or something.
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EPT
