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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On April 20 2013 10:17 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 10:01 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:53 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:43 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:33 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:18 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 08:34 Grumbels wrote:
I met a girl I liked and that seemed to show some interest in me. We both agreed to sign up for this (recreational sports) activity, but failed to coordinate for she and I picked different time slots. As there are limited chances to sign up I would have to break protocol and defy university policy to make the switch, far from being guaranteed a spot. (and I am scared of bureaucrats) I felt like the flow of our relationship development had been disrupted: it was supposed to be the case that we could share in this activity and become closer to each other, but if I want to see her again I would have to make a direct move in pursuing her even if we were only friends before.
I think I can probably convince the trainer to let me switch time slots, but it will probably also require me to be quite insistent with him (which I don't like) and I don't want to make an enemy of him as I will be working with him closely for several months. I suspect she will be happy for me to make this effort, but I'm still quite worried since I'm not certain about this. There is a lingering suspicion in my mind that no woman can be attracted to me in this way, even despite her actual behavior, and I do lack self confidence. I would like to get through this without any strong emotional discomfort on my side, I really can't stand rejection, so I'll have to try to handle this situation carefully. My hope is that I can simply switch the time slots, have a proper non-committal reason for doing so to allow my actions to remain ambiguous from her point of view and then continue with seeing her weekly while becoming closer to her as I had originally planned.
(sorry if this level of elaboration sounds insane) You don't sound insane, but you do sound like you care too much. Who cares if she rejects you? As you say, she might not be attracted to you anyway, but even if she is and you mess it up, there's billion more girls in the world, and plenty who are cooler/hotter/younger than her. Stop being outcome independent. Each girl is an opportunity at romance and/or passion, but just as failing a job interview is okay because there's other jobs out there, failing with a girl is okay because there's plenty of other girls out there. Stop holding yourself back and show up for the "interview" already. On April 20 2013 04:04 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 03:27 hooahah wrote:
I've never had too much contact with the female part of our race. In Elemantry/Middle/High school I mostly hanged out with guy friends, I have only brothers, in college right now I have basically 0 contact with girls since engineering lol
and this shows. It shows in my speech and body language, I have no idea how to talk/interact with girls, and they pick it up, since I telegraph it with everything I do, which further distances me from being with girls which yada yada yada fuck this perpetual cycle bullshit.
Looking for advice, or just some fellow sympathy. I'm not that good looking (I guess slightly below average would fit the description) and god knows I'm not photogenic, but that's not the issue. How do I get out of this shit I would stop using phrases like "the female part of our race", there are more differences between you and a random friend of yours than between the Average Man and the Average Woman. And although I think that's good advise, I'm not sure if it's really helpful, because it takes a while before your actions when in contact with women start to reflect your opinions or beliefs (because at first they are just at the surface, not deeply ingrained into your personality). I think it's probably wise to try and immerse yourself a bit more into works dealing with gender issues (from whatever perspective you like I suppose). And you should join a club which has women in it and then talk to them as if they were people, instead of as if they were a scary breed of things that are nevertheless highly desirable and valuable if only one knew the code to crack them. Also, please refrain from giving dating advice when you have no idea what you're talking about. You're the equivalent of a bronze league player trying to teach people how to play SC. Unless you only pretend to identify with them to get laid, immersing yourself with gender issues is a fast track to involuntary celibacy. Even feminist women despise male feminists on a sexual level; you can easily Google for tons of feminist-directed hate towards "nice guys". lol... if I tell someone "treat women like they are people" that isn't dating advice, it's just regular advice. And it's poor advice in the context of a thread on dating, even if it's good policy in general. "Treating women like they're people" will not lead to romantic/sexual success, unless the way you already treat people in general leads to them being attracted to you. What you're essentially doing is telling people to "be themselves", even though that's not actually working. On top of that, the reality is that treating women as if you are superior to them (even if you believe them to be equals) will lead to you being perceived as attractive. After all, you clearly believe in "treating women like they're people", and how's that working for you? Oh, right, you're freaking out about how to close the deal with a girl who supposedly already likes you and has made an effort to spend time with you. Meanwhile, men like me who treat girls they're interested in as inferior do just fine. Hell, even serial killers are more attractive to women than nice guys like you. TL;DR: You should "treat women like people"... unless you're trying to attract them. That might sound messed up, but this is simply how humans work. That person didn't need dating advice. He said he only had male friends, that in his life he would barely meet women and that if he ever came into contact with them he would not know what to say. Someone like him should in fact be discouraged from dating because even if you teach him a 'trick' to get him to hook up with someone, the relationship will probably end up really badly due to his inexperience and preconceptions. "Awkward engineering guys should be discouraged from dating". Aside from the blatant hypocrisy and projected self-loathing you're showing, that's a terrible thing to say about someone who came here looking for advice and/or sympathy for his problems. Well, not necessarily, but if an 'awkward engineering guy' does not have any semblance of self-confidence and does not have a mature perspective on gender issues (which, unfortunately, is frequently the case) then they should in fact be discouraged. I am speaking from experience, but I believe this to be correct generally.
Self-confidence is not something you can magically develop from thin air. Self-confidence is something you develop through practice and experience, by knowing for certain that you're good at something. Anything else is just pretending. Just as you cannot become confident about your StarCraft abilities without playing StarCraft and becoming good at it, you cannot become confident about your social skills without practicing and developing them.
What you're really saying, underneath the layers of bullshit, is that you believe women deserve the privilege of not having to deal with icky unattractive guys hitting on them, and that such guys should just be involuntarily celibate for life rather than developing their skills, since doing so might inconvenience/discomfort a few women and their fragile feelings.
"Have a mature perspective on gender issues" is code for "is a male feminist". As I've already pointed out (including you as an example), this is actually the worst thing you can possibly do if you want to have any sort of romantic/sexual success.
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On April 20 2013 10:57 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 10:17 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 10:01 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:53 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:43 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:33 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:18 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 08:34 Grumbels wrote:
I met a girl I liked and that seemed to show some interest in me. We both agreed to sign up for this (recreational sports) activity, but failed to coordinate for she and I picked different time slots. As there are limited chances to sign up I would have to break protocol and defy university policy to make the switch, far from being guaranteed a spot. (and I am scared of bureaucrats) I felt like the flow of our relationship development had been disrupted: it was supposed to be the case that we could share in this activity and become closer to each other, but if I want to see her again I would have to make a direct move in pursuing her even if we were only friends before.
I think I can probably convince the trainer to let me switch time slots, but it will probably also require me to be quite insistent with him (which I don't like) and I don't want to make an enemy of him as I will be working with him closely for several months. I suspect she will be happy for me to make this effort, but I'm still quite worried since I'm not certain about this. There is a lingering suspicion in my mind that no woman can be attracted to me in this way, even despite her actual behavior, and I do lack self confidence. I would like to get through this without any strong emotional discomfort on my side, I really can't stand rejection, so I'll have to try to handle this situation carefully. My hope is that I can simply switch the time slots, have a proper non-committal reason for doing so to allow my actions to remain ambiguous from her point of view and then continue with seeing her weekly while becoming closer to her as I had originally planned.
(sorry if this level of elaboration sounds insane) You don't sound insane, but you do sound like you care too much. Who cares if she rejects you? As you say, she might not be attracted to you anyway, but even if she is and you mess it up, there's billion more girls in the world, and plenty who are cooler/hotter/younger than her. Stop being outcome independent. Each girl is an opportunity at romance and/or passion, but just as failing a job interview is okay because there's other jobs out there, failing with a girl is okay because there's plenty of other girls out there. Stop holding yourself back and show up for the "interview" already. On April 20 2013 04:04 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 03:27 hooahah wrote:
I've never had too much contact with the female part of our race. In Elemantry/Middle/High school I mostly hanged out with guy friends, I have only brothers, in college right now I have basically 0 contact with girls since engineering lol
and this shows. It shows in my speech and body language, I have no idea how to talk/interact with girls, and they pick it up, since I telegraph it with everything I do, which further distances me from being with girls which yada yada yada fuck this perpetual cycle bullshit.
Looking for advice, or just some fellow sympathy. I'm not that good looking (I guess slightly below average would fit the description) and god knows I'm not photogenic, but that's not the issue. How do I get out of this shit I would stop using phrases like "the female part of our race", there are more differences between you and a random friend of yours than between the Average Man and the Average Woman. And although I think that's good advise, I'm not sure if it's really helpful, because it takes a while before your actions when in contact with women start to reflect your opinions or beliefs (because at first they are just at the surface, not deeply ingrained into your personality). I think it's probably wise to try and immerse yourself a bit more into works dealing with gender issues (from whatever perspective you like I suppose). And you should join a club which has women in it and then talk to them as if they were people, instead of as if they were a scary breed of things that are nevertheless highly desirable and valuable if only one knew the code to crack them. Also, please refrain from giving dating advice when you have no idea what you're talking about. You're the equivalent of a bronze league player trying to teach people how to play SC. Unless you only pretend to identify with them to get laid, immersing yourself with gender issues is a fast track to involuntary celibacy. Even feminist women despise male feminists on a sexual level; you can easily Google for tons of feminist-directed hate towards "nice guys". lol... if I tell someone "treat women like they are people" that isn't dating advice, it's just regular advice. And it's poor advice in the context of a thread on dating, even if it's good policy in general. "Treating women like they're people" will not lead to romantic/sexual success, unless the way you already treat people in general leads to them being attracted to you. What you're essentially doing is telling people to "be themselves", even though that's not actually working. On top of that, the reality is that treating women as if you are superior to them (even if you believe them to be equals) will lead to you being perceived as attractive. After all, you clearly believe in "treating women like they're people", and how's that working for you? Oh, right, you're freaking out about how to close the deal with a girl who supposedly already likes you and has made an effort to spend time with you. Meanwhile, men like me who treat girls they're interested in as inferior do just fine. Hell, even serial killers are more attractive to women than nice guys like you. TL;DR: You should "treat women like people"... unless you're trying to attract them. That might sound messed up, but this is simply how humans work. That person didn't need dating advice. He said he only had male friends, that in his life he would barely meet women and that if he ever came into contact with them he would not know what to say. Someone like him should in fact be discouraged from dating because even if you teach him a 'trick' to get him to hook up with someone, the relationship will probably end up really badly due to his inexperience and preconceptions. "Awkward engineering guys should be discouraged from dating". Aside from the blatant hypocrisy and projected self-loathing you're showing, that's a terrible thing to say about someone who came here looking for advice and/or sympathy for his problems. Well, not necessarily, but if an 'awkward engineering guy' does not have any semblance of self-confidence and does not have a mature perspective on gender issues (which, unfortunately, is frequently the case) then they should in fact be discouraged. I am speaking from experience, but I believe this to be correct generally. Self-confidence is not something you can magically develop from thin air. Self-confidence is something you develop through practice and experience, by knowing for certain that you're good at something. Anything else is just pretending. Just as you cannot become confident about your StarCraft abilities without playing StarCraft and becoming good at it, you cannot become confidence about your social skills without practicing and developing them. What you're really saying, underneath the layers of bullshit, is that you believe women deserve the privilege of not having to deal with icky unattractive guys hitting on them, and that such guys should just be involuntarily celibate for life rather than developing their skills, since doing so might inconvenience/discomfort a few women and their fragile feelings. "Have a mature perspective on gender issues" is code for "is a male feminist". As I've already pointed out (including you as an example), this is actually the worst thing you can possible do if you want to have any sort of romantic/sexual success.
It's not code for 'male feminist'. I was once a high school student and the following notions were commonly held there:
- women are categorically bad at science fields (barring a few exceptions)
- everything of value in the world was created by men
- even if women were good at things like sociology, that did not matter because those fields did not have real value, the only thing that mattered was science
- women are materialistic, they have no deeper sensibilities, yet at the same time they are emotional while men are rational
(and I'm sure there were various high school specific dating rules that reflected weird attitudes towards women, but I wasn't really into the social scene so I don't know about them too much)
I don't think someone who views women this way should be using them as fodder to improve his dating skills, I think it's a lot more sensible to try and divorce oneself from this world view.
And generally speaking, a lot of your advice might work out for any one person in particular, but I don't think the world is better off for it. I mean, you come up with a few studies from the zoology department and try to use them to teach men tricks to manipulate women into dating them. I think I'd rather treat women in a more friendly manner rather than as inferior beings, as you put it, even if the latter might be the better dating strategy.
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On April 20 2013 11:13 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 10:57 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 10:17 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 10:01 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:53 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:43 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 09:33 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 09:18 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 08:34 Grumbels wrote:
I met a girl I liked and that seemed to show some interest in me. We both agreed to sign up for this (recreational sports) activity, but failed to coordinate for she and I picked different time slots. As there are limited chances to sign up I would have to break protocol and defy university policy to make the switch, far from being guaranteed a spot. (and I am scared of bureaucrats) I felt like the flow of our relationship development had been disrupted: it was supposed to be the case that we could share in this activity and become closer to each other, but if I want to see her again I would have to make a direct move in pursuing her even if we were only friends before.
I think I can probably convince the trainer to let me switch time slots, but it will probably also require me to be quite insistent with him (which I don't like) and I don't want to make an enemy of him as I will be working with him closely for several months. I suspect she will be happy for me to make this effort, but I'm still quite worried since I'm not certain about this. There is a lingering suspicion in my mind that no woman can be attracted to me in this way, even despite her actual behavior, and I do lack self confidence. I would like to get through this without any strong emotional discomfort on my side, I really can't stand rejection, so I'll have to try to handle this situation carefully. My hope is that I can simply switch the time slots, have a proper non-committal reason for doing so to allow my actions to remain ambiguous from her point of view and then continue with seeing her weekly while becoming closer to her as I had originally planned.
(sorry if this level of elaboration sounds insane) You don't sound insane, but you do sound like you care too much. Who cares if she rejects you? As you say, she might not be attracted to you anyway, but even if she is and you mess it up, there's billion more girls in the world, and plenty who are cooler/hotter/younger than her. Stop being outcome independent. Each girl is an opportunity at romance and/or passion, but just as failing a job interview is okay because there's other jobs out there, failing with a girl is okay because there's plenty of other girls out there. Stop holding yourself back and show up for the "interview" already. On April 20 2013 04:04 Grumbels wrote:On April 20 2013 03:27 hooahah wrote:
I've never had too much contact with the female part of our race. In Elemantry/Middle/High school I mostly hanged out with guy friends, I have only brothers, in college right now I have basically 0 contact with girls since engineering lol
and this shows. It shows in my speech and body language, I have no idea how to talk/interact with girls, and they pick it up, since I telegraph it with everything I do, which further distances me from being with girls which yada yada yada fuck this perpetual cycle bullshit.
Looking for advice, or just some fellow sympathy. I'm not that good looking (I guess slightly below average would fit the description) and god knows I'm not photogenic, but that's not the issue. How do I get out of this shit I would stop using phrases like "the female part of our race", there are more differences between you and a random friend of yours than between the Average Man and the Average Woman. And although I think that's good advise, I'm not sure if it's really helpful, because it takes a while before your actions when in contact with women start to reflect your opinions or beliefs (because at first they are just at the surface, not deeply ingrained into your personality). I think it's probably wise to try and immerse yourself a bit more into works dealing with gender issues (from whatever perspective you like I suppose). And you should join a club which has women in it and then talk to them as if they were people, instead of as if they were a scary breed of things that are nevertheless highly desirable and valuable if only one knew the code to crack them. Also, please refrain from giving dating advice when you have no idea what you're talking about. You're the equivalent of a bronze league player trying to teach people how to play SC. Unless you only pretend to identify with them to get laid, immersing yourself with gender issues is a fast track to involuntary celibacy. Even feminist women despise male feminists on a sexual level; you can easily Google for tons of feminist-directed hate towards "nice guys". lol... if I tell someone "treat women like they are people" that isn't dating advice, it's just regular advice. And it's poor advice in the context of a thread on dating, even if it's good policy in general. "Treating women like they're people" will not lead to romantic/sexual success, unless the way you already treat people in general leads to them being attracted to you. What you're essentially doing is telling people to "be themselves", even though that's not actually working. On top of that, the reality is that treating women as if you are superior to them (even if you believe them to be equals) will lead to you being perceived as attractive. After all, you clearly believe in "treating women like they're people", and how's that working for you? Oh, right, you're freaking out about how to close the deal with a girl who supposedly already likes you and has made an effort to spend time with you. Meanwhile, men like me who treat girls they're interested in as inferior do just fine. Hell, even serial killers are more attractive to women than nice guys like you. TL;DR: You should "treat women like people"... unless you're trying to attract them. That might sound messed up, but this is simply how humans work. That person didn't need dating advice. He said he only had male friends, that in his life he would barely meet women and that if he ever came into contact with them he would not know what to say. Someone like him should in fact be discouraged from dating because even if you teach him a 'trick' to get him to hook up with someone, the relationship will probably end up really badly due to his inexperience and preconceptions. "Awkward engineering guys should be discouraged from dating". Aside from the blatant hypocrisy and projected self-loathing you're showing, that's a terrible thing to say about someone who came here looking for advice and/or sympathy for his problems. Well, not necessarily, but if an 'awkward engineering guy' does not have any semblance of self-confidence and does not have a mature perspective on gender issues (which, unfortunately, is frequently the case) then they should in fact be discouraged. I am speaking from experience, but I believe this to be correct generally. Self-confidence is not something you can magically develop from thin air. Self-confidence is something you develop through practice and experience, by knowing for certain that you're good at something. Anything else is just pretending. Just as you cannot become confident about your StarCraft abilities without playing StarCraft and becoming good at it, you cannot become confidence about your social skills without practicing and developing them. What you're really saying, underneath the layers of bullshit, is that you believe women deserve the privilege of not having to deal with icky unattractive guys hitting on them, and that such guys should just be involuntarily celibate for life rather than developing their skills, since doing so might inconvenience/discomfort a few women and their fragile feelings. "Have a mature perspective on gender issues" is code for "is a male feminist". As I've already pointed out (including you as an example), this is actually the worst thing you can possible do if you want to have any sort of romantic/sexual success. It's not code for 'male feminist'. I was once a high school student and the following notions were commonly held there: - women are categorically bad at science fields (barring a few exceptions) - everything of value in the world was created by men - even if women were good at things like sociology, that did not matter because those fields did not have real value, the only thing that mattered was science - women are materialistic, they have no deeper sensibilities, yet at the same time they are emotional while men are rational I don't think someone who views women this way should be using them as fodder to improve his dating skills, I think it's a lot more sensible to try and divorce oneself from this world view.
How in the world did you conclude hooaha views women this way? So in your mind, socially awkward = holding sexist notions? Surprise, surprise, another feminist demonizing nice guys. That's not even getting into the fact that most of those "notions" have some truth to them.
On April 20 2013 11:13 Grumbels wrote:
And generally speaking, a lot of your advice might work out for any one person in particular, but I don't think the world is better off for it. I mean, you come up with a few studies from the zoology department
Humans are animals. We may be highly evolved animals, but we're still animals, with biological soft-wiring and hormone-controlled responses.
On April 20 2013 11:13 Grumbels wrote:and try to use them to teach men tricks to manipulate women into dating them.
Learning how to act attractive is not a "trick" or "manipulation". I don't suppose consider women who use makeup, high heels, and coy behavior to become more attractive to be "tricks" or "manipulation", do you? Otherwise you've got a blatantly sexist double standard going on. Besides, if it's "manipulation", then women love it, just as much as men love it when women wear makeup and high heels despite the "deceptive" nature of such things.
On April 20 2013 11:13 Grumbels wrote:
I think I'd rather treat women in a more friendly manner rather than as inferior beings, as you put it, even if the latter might be the better dating strategy.
If you were really so happy with your life, you wouldn't have posted in this thread looking for advice. Considering the amount of cognitive dissonance you're displaying in this thread, maybe you should reevaluate your beliefs.
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For what it's worth I strongly agree with you Grumbels. People should get their heads on straight before dating. I didn't and it went very poorly.
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It's been much harder to date as I get older (28.5 now). Even though I've been on more dates and met more women. This seems to be a weird crossroad age in general.
1. Personally. I'm not 100% of what I should be/where I want to be/where I deserve to be. Deep down I know this, and I assume women's intuition can pick up on it.
2. I've lately realized that the women I am attracted to and the women who are attracted to me have issues or baggage. So I am somewhat hesitant.
3. The women my age that I meet are either looking for something long term, marriage, and kids (leading back to #1).Or they are still stuck in the party mode (leading back to #2). So I'm sort of stuck at the moment. And the ones that are too old or too young is weird to me now (+/- 10 years), Kinda sucks.
The shitty thing is, as a man, I desire female companionship and sex, but as a person I know I should be focusing on other things. The females will bring me happiness as a man, but will slow me down as a person.
sorta this: http://10.media.tumblr.com/uPc8cy4hWoye7hmjgJ2ncW8vo1_500.jpg
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There exists a tendency to view women that way and by being an 'awkward engineering student' you are at risk, so to say. I think most men have had similar views at some point in their adolescence so it seems sensible to remind people that they possibly might not have a mature perspective on women. It's different to be aware of the politically correct response when discussing gender issues versus actually dealing with them in real life, because you might have deeply rooted values that inform your behavior yet you never articulate them. It takes time to change this beyond the surface level and I suspect, based on personal experience, that this is one of key aspects to being able to have healthy relationships with women whether for friendship or romance.
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On April 20 2013 11:39 Grumbels wrote:
There exists a tendency to view women that way and by being an 'awkward engineering student' you are at risk, so to say. I think most men have had similar views at some point in their adolescence so it seems sensible to remind people that they possibly might not have a mature perspective on women. It's different to be aware of the politically correct response when discussing gender issues versus actually dealing with them in real life, because you might have deeply rooted values that inform your behavior yet you never articulate them. It takes time to change this beyond the surface level and I suspect, based on personal experience, that this is one of key aspects to being able to have healthy relationships with women whether for friendship or romance.
"My views on women must be right and are therefore 'mature'. Anyone who disagrees with me has an 'immature' perspective'." /rolls eyes
Isn't it ironic that those people who have a supposedly "mature perspective" like yours happen to be involuntarily celibate or otherwise complete losers in the sexual marketplace? If your view of "healthy relationships with women" involves involuntary celibacy, perpetual friend-zoning, and otherwise being a wimp who bends over backwards to put women on a pedestal, then no thanks.
I've got to get ready for dinner and a birthday party, but if you'd like to continue this amusing dialogue I'll respond this weekend when I get the chance. If on the other hand, you're truly committed to your way of thinking, then I hope you have a nice life despite facing elimination from the gene pool.
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On April 20 2013 11:49 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 11:39 Grumbels wrote:
There exists a tendency to view women that way and by being an 'awkward engineering student' you are at risk, so to say. I think most men have had similar views at some point in their adolescence so it seems sensible to remind people that they possibly might not have a mature perspective on women. It's different to be aware of the politically correct response when discussing gender issues versus actually dealing with them in real life, because you might have deeply rooted values that inform your behavior yet you never articulate them. It takes time to change this beyond the surface level and I suspect, based on personal experience, that this is one of key aspects to being able to have healthy relationships with women whether for friendship or romance. "My views on women must be right and are therefore 'mature'. Anyone who disagrees with me has an 'immature' perspective'." /rolls eyes Isn't it ironic that those people who have a supposedly "mature perspective" like yours happen to be involuntarily celibate or otherwise complete losers in the sexual marketplace? If your view of "healthy relationships with women" involves involuntary celibacy, perpetual friend-zoning, and otherwise being a wimp who bends over backwards to put women on a pedestal, then no thanks. I've got to get ready for dinner and a birthday party, but if you'd like to continue this amusing dialogue I'll respond this weekend when I get the chance. If on the other hand, you're truly committed to your way of thinking, then I hope you have a nice life despite facing elimination from the gene pool.
Wow, you really are a complete tool.
You did a very good job on countering the argument Grumbels didn't make, but I wonder if you can do as well on the one that he did make. For example, the immature perspective. He outlined why it was illogical to believe what he considered to be an immature perspective and why that is wrong. And your reply is "Oh yeah, so anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and anyone who agrees is right."... Um, yes. Generally people think their opinions are right or they wouldn't hold them any more.
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Treating women like human beings != putting women on a pedestal.
Friendzone is a bullshit term anyways. All healthy relationships should have a strong basis in friendship, imo.
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On April 20 2013 12:04 WarSame wrote:
"Oh yeah, so anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and anyone who agrees is right."... Um, yes. Generally people think their opinions are right or they wouldn't hold them any more.
I beg to differ. For example, I believe that many, if not all, of my philosophical beliefs are completely false; they are only the best guesses a humble individual like I can make.
The person you are arguing with probably didn't mean that, though. I think it's more likely that he was referring to a lack of openmindedness.
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On April 20 2013 12:19 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 12:04 WarSame wrote:
"Oh yeah, so anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and anyone who agrees is right."... Um, yes. Generally people think their opinions are right or they wouldn't hold them any more. I beg to differ. For example, I believe that many, if not all, of my philosophical beliefs are completely false; they are only the best guesses a humble individual like I can make. The person you are arguing with probably didn't mean that, though. I think it's more likely that he was referring to a lack of openmindedness.
Yes, but you think they are right. On the balance of probabilities they were the conclusions you thought most likely. If someone convinced you another opinion is more likely you'd change to that one. You just happen to include a large uncertainty in there.
And yes, that was probably what he meant. But honestly, I don't see how Grumbels was being close-minded. He explained why the immature view was wrong logically and went off of that whereas sunprince said the equivalent of:
OMFG no you're so stupid
Which isn't to say he's wrong, but at the very least hypocritical.
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On April 19 2013 22:45 kaykaykay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 16:01 kaykaykay wrote:Just gave a letter to the girl I've been hanging out with for a month. It ends like this "So.. Would you wanna have dinner sometime maybe? I know just the place for it. Trust me, it’ll be fun!" Wish me luck  Would love some advice regardless of what she does. So.. She texts me on the same day and says she hasn't read it and will do so tmr. The next day there's no contact and I initiate by saying. "Hey ____ , is dinner yay or nay. Or is it awkward as fuck now? She replies with extreme confusion as though she hasn't read it. What do you guys think?
Update:
I told her the letter was to ask her out for dinner, and she says she misplaced it.
And then I said it didn't matter now since I'm directly asking her out now.
And she replies and i quote, with a "Fine with anything!!!!!"
So I set a date.
But then she says she's working on weekends and that weekends in general are risky.
And I'm busy on weekdays so I ask her to see if she can make time for it the next weekend.
So.. now that I've done all I can and the ball's in her court,
I just have to wait for her to make time to see me?
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Ughhh. I just got friend zoned hardcore by a girl that I've liked for awhile... I probably waited to long to ask her out, but it just makes me so depressed. I talk to her everyday, walk her to her locker and car daily, and exchange texts with her on a regular basis (she even texts me first half the time). I am second in my class, I play guitar, I play piano, I play varsity soccer, and, not to sound like a douche bag, but am an attractive guy. Meanwhile, her ex boyfriend (whom she still has feelings for) is a fat ginger who was a dick to her and her most recent boyfriend cheated on her after roughly two weeks of dating. I suppose this isn't really a constructive post as I seem to be basing relationships completely on physical attractiveness and achievements rather than what they should be based on, but it still feels good to vent...
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I would bet you act a lot different around her than around your male friends
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Well to a certain extend, yes, but we were also starting to become good friends. I can talk to her just like a talk to my male friends now. Granted, I am a little socially awkward, but so is she, which is part of the reason I waited to long to ask her out. I wanted to establish a good basis of friendship first. I guess that back fired though... As you can probably tell, I don't have a lot of success with the opposite sex. I'm 17 and have never had a girlfriend. I've asked two girls out and been rejected both times (the first time was in 8th grade when I was awkward as fuck though, so that doesn't really count). I guess I just need more experience with relationships, so it wasn't a complete waste.
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On April 20 2013 13:03 kaykaykay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 22:45 kaykaykay wrote:On April 18 2013 16:01 kaykaykay wrote:Just gave a letter to the girl I've been hanging out with for a month. It ends like this "So.. Would you wanna have dinner sometime maybe? I know just the place for it. Trust me, it’ll be fun!" Wish me luck Would love some advice regardless of what she does. So.. She texts me on the same day and says she hasn't read it and will do so tmr. The next day there's no contact and I initiate by saying. "Hey ____ , is dinner yay or nay. Or is it awkward as fuck now? She replies with extreme confusion as though she hasn't read it. What do you guys think? Update: I told her the letter was to ask her out for dinner, and she says she misplaced it. And then I said it didn't matter now since I'm directly asking her out now. And she replies and i quote, with a "Fine with anything!!!!!" So I set a date. But then she says she's working on weekends and that weekends in general are risky. And I'm busy on weekdays so I ask her to see if she can make time for it the next weekend. So.. now that I've done all I can and the ball's in her court, I just have to wait for her to make time to see me?
She misplaced your letter? That sounds like BS. I don't know if she plays games with you or if she's not interested but afraid to hurt you? Either way she's acting weird IMO. I hope the best for you though, hope it works out the best way possible.
I'm in a difficult spot myself. I am currently on exchange-semester in Seoul. A few weeks back I started to get feelings for this Korean girl studying at the same University. Since we have common friends we see eachother several times a week. It started out with small talks, turned into texting etc. I finally asked her out for lunch and she said yes. We've been having dinner, breakfasts & went to the cinema together. She even confessed she thinks about me a lot and likes me and I think that's quite huge since she is a bit shy.
We are both confused however since I can stay for this semester only and possibly during the summer. I "have to" go back to Sweden and finish 2 semesters to get my degree. Should we start a relationship now or remain friends? I feel so bad about this. If I can stay the summer and come back after finishing my degree it would still mean about 9 months not seeing eachother. Long distance would also mean 7 hours difference in time which makes it even harder to stay in contact.
Anyone have advice to give a brother in this situation?
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On April 20 2013 13:59 BeaSteR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 13:03 kaykaykay wrote:On April 19 2013 22:45 kaykaykay wrote:On April 18 2013 16:01 kaykaykay wrote:Just gave a letter to the girl I've been hanging out with for a month. It ends like this "So.. Would you wanna have dinner sometime maybe? I know just the place for it. Trust me, it’ll be fun!" Wish me luck Would love some advice regardless of what she does. So.. She texts me on the same day and says she hasn't read it and will do so tmr. The next day there's no contact and I initiate by saying. "Hey ____ , is dinner yay or nay. Or is it awkward as fuck now? She replies with extreme confusion as though she hasn't read it. What do you guys think? Update: I told her the letter was to ask her out for dinner, and she says she misplaced it. And then I said it didn't matter now since I'm directly asking her out now. And she replies and i quote, with a "Fine with anything!!!!!" So I set a date. But then she says she's working on weekends and that weekends in general are risky. And I'm busy on weekdays so I ask her to see if she can make time for it the next weekend. So.. now that I've done all I can and the ball's in her court, I just have to wait for her to make time to see me? She misplaced your letter? That sounds like BS. I don't know if she plays games with you or if she's not interested but afraid to hurt you? Either way she's acting weird IMO. I hope the best for you though, hope it works out the best way possible. I'm in a difficult spot myself. I am currently on exchange-semester in Seoul. A few weeks back I started to get feelings for this Korean girl studying at the same University. Since we have common friends we see eachother several times a week. It started out with small talks, turned into texting etc. I finally asked her out for lunch and she said yes. We've been having dinner, breakfasts & went to the cinema together. She even confessed she thinks about me a lot and likes me and I think that's quite huge since she is a bit shy. We are both confused however since I can stay for this semester only and possibly during the summer. I "have to" go back to Sweden and finish 2 semesters to get my degree. Should we start a relationship now or remain friends? I feel so bad about this. If I can stay the summer and come back after finishing my degree it would still mean about 9 months not seeing eachother. Long distance would also mean 7 hours difference in time which makes it even harder to stay in contact. Anyone have advice to give a brother in this situation?
It's not my personal experience but i know someone really close to me that got a boyfriend during an exchange juste like you did, they then had some sort of long distance relationship for 3 to 4 years, seeing each others two or three times a year in person during holidays.
That'st he longest long distance relationship i know of and it ended up really awkwardly with the contact fading away bit by bit. First you don't contact the person a few days without noticing, Then it happens to be a week and then a month.
I know some other persons that had that kind of relationship, but not for that long. They all ended in good terms but with the exact same ending as i described above.
So i would say a long distance relationship is doomed if you don't quickly move in with that person you are with. I'm on an exchange in China now; been with a few girls but since i knew about that long distance crap stories i always say right from the beginning that it will be over after i leave. It made two of them step back and the third one is unsure right now.
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On April 20 2013 12:04 WarSame wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 11:49 sunprince wrote:On April 20 2013 11:39 Grumbels wrote:
There exists a tendency to view women that way and by being an 'awkward engineering student' you are at risk, so to say. I think most men have had similar views at some point in their adolescence so it seems sensible to remind people that they possibly might not have a mature perspective on women. It's different to be aware of the politically correct response when discussing gender issues versus actually dealing with them in real life, because you might have deeply rooted values that inform your behavior yet you never articulate them. It takes time to change this beyond the surface level and I suspect, based on personal experience, that this is one of key aspects to being able to have healthy relationships with women whether for friendship or romance. "My views on women must be right and are therefore 'mature'. Anyone who disagrees with me has an 'immature' perspective'." /rolls eyes Isn't it ironic that those people who have a supposedly "mature perspective" like yours happen to be involuntarily celibate or otherwise complete losers in the sexual marketplace? If your view of "healthy relationships with women" involves involuntary celibacy, perpetual friend-zoning, and otherwise being a wimp who bends over backwards to put women on a pedestal, then no thanks. I've got to get ready for dinner and a birthday party, but if you'd like to continue this amusing dialogue I'll respond this weekend when I get the chance. If on the other hand, you're truly committed to your way of thinking, then I hope you have a nice life despite facing elimination from the gene pool. Wow, you really are a complete tool. You did a very good job on countering the argument Grumbels didn't make, but I wonder if you can do as well on the one that he did make. For example, the immature perspective. He outlined why it was illogical to believe what he considered to be an immature perspective and why that is wrong. And your reply is "Oh yeah, so anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and anyone who agrees is right."... Um, yes. Generally people think their opinions are right or they wouldn't hold them any more.
Grumbels specifically stated that certain views do not represent a "mature perspective on women". Reread the quoted section if you missed it.
It's an assumption that underlies his entire argument, that certain (politically incorrect yet partly true) views are "immature". Anytime you use "maturity" as an argument, you're wandering out of rational discourse into the territory of the emotional and the fallacious.
When considered in the greater context of the dialogue we were having, it's essentially dismissing views he disagrees with on the basis that the opposing perspective is merely "immature".
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
'Don't listen to Grumbels'
'I'm going to assume you have Aspergers traits'
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EPT
