Its not going to get violent because a clear message in the protest is nonviolence so stop with that garbage. A lot of you seem to be against the protestors for whatever reason but the fact is this country is fucked up. Their goals may not be picture perfect but at least they are out there trying to get attention to some important issues.
When Warren Buffet is out there saying that the system is flawed I think its time to make some changes.
The whole Carried interest loophole how hedgefunds owners manage to only pay 15% taxes on their gains is a tragedy. Financial trade taxes or adjusting the tax breaks on other capital gains need to be looked at. Capitalism is a good system but the way it is being executed in America is just wrong. Banks need to make up for their bailouts and for their risky behavior, and the government needs to start representing its people and not just its corporations. Its really spiraled out of control.
Curly brotha, breathe a moment. Good? Your right about the protesters, but what aboult the authorities. It takes two to tango, but usually one person leads
On October 06 2011 01:42 CurLy[] wrote: Capitalism is a good system but the way it is being executed in America is just wrong.
No it isn't, and that is the problem why the protesters can't form a coherent opinion. They criticize everything that is capitalism, without blaming capitalism, because "it's a good system". Cognitive dissonance. People are in shock because the negative sides of capitalism where, for a good 50 years, only felt by the third world, but now it hits home AND the middle-class. So they make up things about "corporate greed" and "evil banks" without recognizing the background of it and that it's the heart of the western capitalism system.
Curly, banks already made up for their bailouts and then some.
And sorry, what's your problem with capital gains tax? It's not just hedge fund owners, if you were to go buy Apple stock (good luck with that), and made a gain, you would be paying the capital gain rate as well.
Having stronger taxes on capital gains discourages investment, because it skews the profit/loss scenario and more projects, more expansion and growth gets cut.
As it's been well stated, corporations and "the 1%" contribute more in absolute and percentage tax dollars than the rest of the nation. If you want to "pay fair shares", then you best be writing a check to the Treasury.
Its not going to get violent because a clear message in the protest is nonviolence so stop with that garbage. A lot of you seem to be against the protestors for whatever reason but the fact is this country is fucked up.
Some people have maybe become so cynical that they dare not hope for change. Others have perhaps not been hit hard enough yet to come to terms with reality.
There are very few who genuinely have interest in things staying just as they are and they're certainly not posting here.
Also, you say banks should have to "answer" for their risky behavior? What about all the people who wanted to buy a home they couldn't afford, or the how the average American owes at least $15,000 on a credit card.
It's a two way street. You can't simply blame wall street for the mortgage crisis when the American public was more than happy to go along with taking on the debt. Greed and speculation is everywhere.
On October 06 2011 01:53 Bitters wrote: Curly, banks already made up for their bailouts and then some.
And sorry, what's your problem with capital gains tax? It's not just hedge fund owners, if you were to go buy Apple stock (good luck with that), and made a gain, you would be paying the capital gain rate as well.
Having stronger taxes on capital gains discourages investment, because it skews the profit/loss scenario and more projects, more expansion and growth gets cut.
As it's been well stated, corporations and "the 1%" contribute more in absolute and percentage tax dollars than the rest of the nation. If you want to "pay fair shares", then you best be writing a check to the Treasury.
I'm only going to say net income from corporate taxes would completely support your point, as opposed to say personal income tax (federal income). However, when someone says something about fair. General Electric income, vs tax profit, which they did profit, not pay, combined with say... their 2008 political contributions, CEO getting appointed, is going to be problematic.
Edit: Pretty sure it was a 60% profit from their exeptions.
I think he sums up very well what this is about. And I support them fully although, I'm just not sure America can do what it takes to look past our greed.
Politicians shit themselves even thinking about taking measures that would in any way decrease profits for the big corporations and banks. Even if we're talking about things like decreased fertility, raising incidence of chronic disease, poor getting poorer, global warming, the inevitable energy crisis, the simple fact of earth having limited resources while population keeps growing, etc.
On October 06 2011 01:42 CurLy[] wrote: Capitalism is a good system but the way it is being executed in America is just wrong.
No it isn't, and that is the problem why the protesters can't form a coherent opinion. They criticize everything that is capitalism, without blaming capitalism, because "it's a good system". Cognitive dissonance. People are in shock because the negative sides of capitalism where, for a good 50 years, only felt by the third world, but now it hits home AND the middle-class. So they make up things about "corporate greed" and "evil banks" without recognizing the background of it and that it's the heart of the western capitalism system.
Word!
If they/we don't recognize this fact then all will be done for nothing!
I think he sums up very well what this is about. And I support them fully although, I'm just not sure America can do what it takes to look past our greed.
No he doesn't.
He wants to end fractional reserve banking. That would collapse the entire financial system, requiring the banks to keep every single dollar you deposit available, at the branch. This means they aren't able to loan, or move capital throughout the system to facilitate economic growth. All banks are then are safeguards for keeping your money in a vault.
Fiat money is "real money". It has no intrinsic value, that's true. But it is backed by the US Government, which qualifies it as legal tender. Just like nearly all major counties in the world. He says fiat like its a bad word, but clearly doesn't understand it.
He asks why doesn't he get a bailout, while the banks did? Because if he fucks up and fails, the US moves on. If the major banks fail, you reach economic disasters. (He calls them thieves, but I already mentioned how the banks have repaid the TARP money along with a $10B return). Furthermore, why does he need a "bail out". If he has debt, he can go bankrupt, okay debt is gone for the cost of credit which he apparently thinks is useless because he doesn't want the banks to lend.
This is what I mean. You get a bunch of people with no idea of what the financial institutions do, complaining about problems they don't understand while offering no solution. This kid is being called an "epic protestor" or "American hero" in the comments. Yet he doesn't even know what he says. Educate yourselves people, and I'm not talking about pursuing a degree in history or philosophy.
I think he sums up very well what this is about. And I support them fully although, I'm just not sure America can do what it takes to look past our greed.
I cannot take seriously anyone that seriously thinks that "real money" = gold standard.
edit: oh lol, "if we lose America, we have nowhere else to run for freedom"
I support these protests but this guy is pretty much the poster child for the amalgamation of economic ignorance, hearsay truisms, and nationalist stupidity.
I think he sums up very well what this is about. And I support them fully although, I'm just not sure America can do what it takes to look past our greed.
No he doesn't.
He wants to end fractional reserve banking. That would collapse the entire financial system, requiring the banks to keep every single dollar you deposit available, at the branch. This means they aren't able to loan, or move capital throughout the system to facilitate economic growth. All banks are then are safeguards for keeping your money in a vault.
Fiat money is "real money". It has no intrinsic value, that's true. But it is backed by the US Government, which qualifies it as legal tender. Just like nearly all major counties in the world. He says fiat like its a bad word, but clearly doesn't understand it.
He asks why doesn't he get a bailout, while the banks did? Because if he fucks up and fails, the US moves on. If the major banks fail, you reach economic disasters. (He calls them thieves, but I already mentioned how the banks have repaid the TARP money along with a $10B return). Furthermore, why does he need a "bail out". If he has debt, he can go bankrupt, okay debt is gone for the cost of credit which he apparently thinks is useless because he doesn't want the banks to lend.
This is what I mean. You get a bunch of people with no idea of what the financial institutions do, complaining about problems they don't understand while offering no solution. This kid is being called an "epic protestor" or "American hero" in the comments. Yet he doesn't even know what he says. Educate yourselves people, and I'm not talking about pursuing a degree in history or philosophy.
Yeah, a little reading on wikipedia would enlighten so many people. I don't understand how a commodity-backed currency would prevent people from being able to make money from money. Even prior to 1914, before the FED was put in place, the rich still got richer and the poor still got poorer. Only it came with an even LESS controllable economic system that was rife with booms and busts as the price of gold swung around wildly.
On October 06 2011 01:53 Bitters wrote: Curly, banks already made up for their bailouts and then some.
And sorry, what's your problem with capital gains tax? It's not just hedge fund owners, if you were to go buy Apple stock (good luck with that), and made a gain, you would be paying the capital gain rate as well.
Having stronger taxes on capital gains discourages investment, because it skews the profit/loss scenario and more projects, more expansion and growth gets cut.
As it's been well stated, corporations and "the 1%" contribute more in absolute and percentage tax dollars than the rest of the nation. If you want to "pay fair shares", then you best be writing a check to the Treasury.
Still high interest rates, shit like BofA instituting even more fees, they haven't made up. They haven't made up for the foreclosed homes. Yes the people should have been more responsible but the banks should have too. The banks certainly knew that many of their clients were risky endeavors and as a corporate power it is their responsibility to identify that. You would think that multi billion dollar companies would be able to identify an average consumer with 3 credit cards in the negative, moderate income, and a family to support. You can't just blame it on the people obviously the banks are at fault too.
If you read my post the first line address hedge funds but additionally large private equity firms and their abuse of Carried interest 15% loophole. If some of the 1% were paying the 35% that they should be at least thats a step toward economic justice.
I'm not asking for stronger taxes but something needs to be reworked. This isn’t just an issue about being screwed over by some investment bank, its a systemic breakdown at all levels. But nothing will change because the government is held by the balls and nothing will ever pass because Congress is divided in their own interests rather than the peoples.
high interest rates have come and went for a lot longer than this "crisis", like the economy it fluctuates.
we just had a period of crazy low interest rates in 2008, which led to the housing bubble. plus, supply and demand economics affect interest rates, its not magically decided by the banks. if lots of people want to take out loans, but only so much is available to loan, then the interest rate (or price of the loan) goes up.
making up for foreclosed homes? are you serious? people bought homes they could not afford. they lost the homes. that's how the world works. if you can't afford something, you shouldn't have it. you're acting like a typical scapegoating "occupier". Oh, the banks did it to me! Really? Did they force you to sign a loan? Did you never stop and think that "oh, maybe I shouldn't buy a home that I can ONLY afford the interest payment on."
Caveat Emptor. People need to take responsibility for their actions, I agree. But the banks did. When are the people who got greedy with loans?
And what exactly is your problem with carried interest? If a manager is able to out perform the market, should he not be compensated? Or what loophole are you hinting at?
The Double Irish Arrangement is a tax avoidance strategy that U.S. based multinational corporations use to lower their income tax liability. The idea is to use payments between related entities in a corporate structure to shift income from a higher-tax country to a lower-tax country. It relies on the fact that Irish tax law does not include effective transfer pricing rules
On October 06 2011 01:42 CurLy[] wrote: Capitalism is a good system but the way it is being executed in America is just wrong.
No it isn't, and that is the problem why the protesters can't form a coherent opinion. They criticize everything that is capitalism, without blaming capitalism, because "it's a good system". Cognitive dissonance. People are in shock because the negative sides of capitalism where, for a good 50 years, only felt by the third world, but now it hits home AND the middle-class. So they make up things about "corporate greed" and "evil banks" without recognizing the background of it and that it's the heart of the western capitalism system.
I meant that loosely, okay its a pretty flawed system. Its a decent system, but its definitely got its problems. We need to end the repression of debate in the US over capitalism because saying anything bad about it instantly makes you a communist socialist nazi. The ignorance is what is killing us and the spin doctors over with main stream media aren't helping. Its impossible for those who actually do understand it to have intelligent discussions or bring up topics like this without being crucified in the public eye which is really a shame.
On October 06 2011 03:14 Bitters wrote: And what exactly is your problem with carried interest? If a manager is able to out perform the market, should he not be compensated? Or what loophole are you hinting at?
They are compensated enough, I know 4 billion in taxes is peanuts but its something the 1% can afford and they should be paying it.
And yes again the people who did that are retarded but now they are in even worse shape, it could have all been avoided with proper regulation.
Anyway these are issues that aren't even the most important to me... a lot of OWS is still about getting control over the government again, trying to revoke power away from those with deep pockets. Healthcare not Warfare, which I don't think anyone can argue. My personal issue which I am trying to spread is the system of privatized prisons which is increasingly popular in the states and somehow legal... I think its just absurd to intertwine the government and judicial system with a for profit prison.
Okay, I've read more now on the carried interest loophole. But really, if you want to shift the goal posts to specific issues (since this is not really an "occupy" piece), and want to perfectly talk fair share, then...
how would you like to define fair share? absolute or percentage? because the "1%" pay a higher percentage tax rate than 98.5% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States) of the American households. Fair share would mean everyone pays the 35% that you say these people should.
Fair share is a silly term. Obviously it is not possible and if they want a fair share in a capitalist system that is just silly. Fair share seems more of a socialist idea than anything. You just suggested a flat 35% tax across all income levels so yeah obviously that is not 'fair'
The 1% also outnet the bottom 90% so whats your point.
Yes its shifting goal posts, but I was just throwing out some ideas because people constantly complain that there are no goals, that OWS are just a bunch of hippies with no cause. The whole goal of OWS is to draw attention and get people talking about these kind of issues and it is working. People will continue to educate themselves and perhaps new ideas and reform will come down the line. Its really not a bad cause in any way and more people should support and help guide it in my opinion. The more we talk about real issues on the news instead of who Justin Beiber's new girlfriend is the better, am I right though?
So it's silly now that it works against your argument? You want someone to pay MORE in taxes for what reason then? Because you randomly decide that they make too much money?
I'm saying that despite out earning the lower 90% (which is obvious and redundant considering the percentages people are throwing out are solely based on earnings), they are paying more than their out-earning would dictate in a "fair share" environment.
And OWS is about drawing attention to themselves and blaming others for the problems they have incurred. If anyone is in need of education, it's the people in the streets of Wall Street, not the people in the towers. Just like the "epic protestor" above, they are out in the streets making claims about things they don't know and don't understand.
EPT
