On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
No I am not on crack thank you, and I don't believe the police targeted her but I do believe she had no place at all being in a situation like that and the OWS people around her should have brought her to safety BEFORE the dung hit the fan not after. Though it does make for a compelling photo, as would a line of disable children.
Hey I'm just trying to give some suggestions on how to help as a thank you for the Occupy Boston folks making me commute a disaster.
On a serious note, do you really think it is smart an 85 year old to be out there with a real possibility of something like this happening, or god forbid she falls.
Hey kids don't dream of better world or try to achieve it.. I HAVE PLACES TO BE DAMN IT, MY DEAD END JOB WILL FIRE ME IF I'M LATE ON MY COMMUTE!!!
Think BIGGER.
And she was there because she was fighting for what is RIGHT. You cannot stop a person who is inspired, regardless of their age.
O and anyone condoning police attacks on their own citizens or claiming the protesters to be at fault for "getting pepper sprayed" should register for a lobotomy. You know the rights they're being brutally denied are the same ones you take for granted every day; they seem less absolute now.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
considering the avg age of the tea party i guess they shouldn't have ever protested.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with income inequality, because there has always been income inequality and there always will be. No country has ever been able to eliminate it. The only problem is the lack of income mobility. The ability for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich. What the OWS crowd want is actually less income mobility, and since it is impossible to remove income inequality they would create a society vastly worse than what we have now.
Lol... You do realize how little social mobility we have currently esp considering our historical high. You also realize number one way of increasing social mobility is though opportunity, usually given though education and i don't ever remember any ows voicing the idea of making education less available to people.
Also if you're going to shit talk you should elaborate, else i can just claim that you're out to do nothing but smear ows.
Over the past 10 years 66% of the lower 20% left their income bracket for a higher one. Only 10% of the lower 20% fell. You think that is little social mobility? 66% leave their bracket for higher incomes? Want me to look up how many of the top 1% and 5% have fallen?
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
I keep hearing this quote being repeated by the media and OWS alike, and I think it may be misleading. I agree that the difference between the have and have-nots in the US is greater than anywhere else, but isn't that just because most of the world's wealthy people live in the US anyway? What I'm trying to say is that even if the inequality between the rich and the poor is the highest, that doesn't mean that the absolute middle class standard of living is lower in the US compared to other countries. The US still has the lowest food prices and lowest prices on most goods (e.g. amazon.com is amazingly cheap compared to amazon.co.uk or amazin.ca etc;). And to top that off, middle class occupations still have higher salaries in the US compared to other countries (e.g. accountants, engineers, IT professionals all earn more in the US)
They live in the US because our tax laws make it possible to acquire billions with minimal taxes. It isn't that Americans are somehow better at making money than people in other countries it's that the way our system works makes it much easier on someone the richer you are. Especially when compared to any other developed country.
Our taxes are lower but that's also why we have fewer social programs than other countries which is why the cost of goods is cheaper here. In the long run the average American is definitely losing money though because while someone from Canada may pay five dollars more for a pair of jeans they aren't paying several thousand dollars a year on health insurance.
Food prices are lowest because we create a ton of food. We're the leading exporter of food in the world.
The middle class makes good money but considering how badly the lower class is paid and considering just how much money America generates there's no reason for us to have such a huge disparage between the haves and have nots in America. We live in a country that generates so much wealth that there's no reason the middle class should be shrinking rather than growing.
Yes I have seen that photo many times now. It is image tactics on BOTH sides. The media is no longer simply a media of reporting, and they are very efficient at smearing. Keep in mind that is the NORMAL press who took that picture. Gives you an idea of corruption, lovely. You can say history is built on making a certain side look good, other side bad. Both sides have rights and wrongs. There are legitimate frustrations with the way our government is being handled. That is a fact. The way ows is handling may not be the best way, but it's better then sitting on our asses election after election hoping the problem will go away. Because it's not going away.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Your anecdote doesn't really illustrate the problem. It's basically a middle class example of a small successful business.
But even so, let's review your anecdote - your father took a big risk, quit his job, and pursued his dream. And it all worked out well and you can now use it as an argument in a debate. But what if it didn't work out?
Moreover, you need to understand that not everyone has the desire to work 15 hours a day for 10 years. This is actually what bugs me the most. You shouldn't HAVE to work 15 hours a day to avoid a shitty job and a shittier wage. Working 15 hours a day is extremely unhealthy, in every sense of the word. You can't fault people who don't want to live like that and expect a fair wage and living conditions for the standard 8 hours a day of work, and you can't measure everyone against a 15 hour per day standard, because that's a horrible standard.
There's nothing unfair about someone being wealthy and able to provide for himself a reasonable amount of luxury. But the problem is on the other end - there is plenty that's unfair about having people living in poverty or on the brink of poverty. It is wrong both because these people are actually suffering, and more importantly because it means that they are inferior and dependent in every way on people at the high end of the income curve, which is a dangerous situation to have because you have people controlling other peoples' lives and fates.
Welfare and accessible education isn't there just to help people out, it's also there to preserve the principles of equality and democracy. If your whole life depends on the whim of your current employer or you aren't being treated or paid fairly, then you are quite simply not free and you can not vote freely or act freely.
I'm not arguing against welfare. I agree completely that it's necessary. But as my opposition was talking about "Social Mobility", my story was proof that one can break the bonds of poverty with hard work and dedication. No, not everyone has the motivation to work that hard. As consequence, they will remain in the poorer class. While this seems like a harsh reality, when thought about, it is necessary.
Imagine if a regular employee was able to work an average amount of hours with average performance. My interpretation of your logic is that he should then be able to rise in his economic state. If you apply this ideal to the real world, you encounter a problem that is mathematically impossible. there is simply not enough money to pay that many people that high.
History dictates that a poor class needs to be larger that the middle and rich classes for a functional society to exist (think of a pyramid). If average work allowed in increase in wealth to occur, then the society would collapse, do to a lack of a labor force and spendable capital.
While idealistically you may be correct, those ideas applied to the real world simply do not work. I grimace at going back to the cliche "Life's not fair", but it speaks the truth in this debate. The poor classes will remain poor for the most part, without doing great things to bring them out of the poor class.
history has never had to deal with mechanized agriculture and computer networks
there is no need for a large poor class to do menial tasks in today's world, and this need will shrink further as technology advances
ask yourself this: would there be a 9% unemployment rate in the US if fields needed to be tilled with manual labor? or workers needed in factories to put the screws on products?
the need for a poor/uneducated class is largely obsolete because of technology, but poor people still exist because societal values havent advanced as fast as said technology
I agree with this as well. But there is a massive problem. There is not enough money in the country to to pay that many people that much money with the current tax rate and government spending. Simply impossible.
Maybe one day in the future when lobbying is made illegal and the government spends money in a much more precise and limited manner, that can happen.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Ok, we can agree on something! Hard work should result in a higher income. The effort and reward should be central parts of a strong capitalist economy. This is, in my mind, pretty central to what OWS is about; except you think OWS is against it, while I believe OWS is very much for it. It may seem on the surface to be a blind rage toward those with wealth, but it's really more of a rage at the fact that in this 'democratic' society money controls politics, writes the laws, and controls the media. And the effect that is having on our country is that it is getting easier for the very rich to maintain and increase their wealth (lower income tax, no estate tax) while it is getting more difficult for the average person, despite working multiple jobs, to even enter let alone ascend past the middle class.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with income inequality, because there has always been income inequality and there always will be. No country has ever been able to eliminate it. The only problem is the lack of income mobility. The ability for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich. What the OWS crowd want is actually less income mobility, and since it is impossible to remove income inequality they would create a society vastly worse than what we have now.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Hi, how are you? How about you sit down because this is going to hurt. I have a feeling you're a moron and are in need of some educating.
The inequality in the U.S. is a direct result of CRONY-CAPITALISM and make believe democracy. In no WAY do the current drastically low tax rates help small or new business. It is estimated that the beneficiaries of these breaks are in fact the MEGA corporations.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Now these extreme breaks were not enough motivation for your loved ones the super greedy, so they created very special products to trade one. CDO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation , which are in essence HORRIBLE loans they've forced, lied, and tricked low income families into and repackaged. They repackage them, mark them as AAA rating and resell them into the market. Remember these are loans they know are going to fail.
Peter Schiff is the foremost predictor of the housing market crash and said it was entirely the because of government regulation. So again it's governments fault.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Documentary covering this VERY REAL practice, which under most interpretation of the law is fraud. Watch or shut up.
Next; when their bubble burst and they were supposed to fail and be broken up, as a real free market would call for, they received an enormous government hand out. Sounds like socialism, but not for everyone. The rest of us get crony capitalism while the elites have government security blankets. If you think the 2008 bailout was bad:
These policies were allowed and encouraged by a very corrupt government. Why would they not support these kinds of policies? After their "public service" they become board members and cash out. Still following along here?
And again the government is the one responsible for the bailouts, not companies.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: So now that we understand how the income inequality was generated entirely by the: apathy of the america people as they were secretly being fucked and the corporate plutocracy who know own your country its time to debunk some the ABSURD solutions being presented by those who got us here:
He's right. Do your own research; he's right. How about some of the tax proposals?
The states and counties which vote predominately democrat are poorer and less free if you want to correlate anything. Which again is the fault of government.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Record people who can't even get food? Hmmm better hope that government the elites have trained the uneducated to destroy isn't actually destroyed or the streets are going to be a lot more depressing.
It's a pretty devastating situation but it is not without hope. However the uneducated and unwilling, such as yourself, are making it harder for those who actually know whats going on to succeed. Not only does OWS recognize these grave financial injustices but many others : environmental devastation by corporatism, military complex/empire building etc etc....
OWS understands, and is trying to at least call attention to these issues whilst offering REAL solutions:
So no. It's not small businesses that they are against or even large business following the laws that ensure consumer protection and competition. They are very against those who currently ignore, lobby against, and bribe the agencies trying to enforce the law. What part of that CORRUPTION is not clear?
You can feel free to welcome your new Corporate overlords with open arms; while they pay 0% taxes and gut your social programs. Most rational people see this as unacceptable however and that's why OWS is growing.
From now on, all of you OWS doubters, inform yourself, inform others and just try thinking. Please.
Paying money to get something done makes you an accomplice. The truly corrupt is the government. But you fail to understand that, which is why OWS doesn't actually recognize anything. The government is the mob boss and wall street is the businesses who launder the money. Removing the businesses doesn't remove the crime, because the boss is still in charge.
In my post I see sources, evidence, statistics. In yours I see random blame placing and desperate regurgitation of nonsense. Use SOURCES to make a point and when you can't then you can enjoy the realization that you're wrong.
Also WHO DO YOU THINK OWNS THE GOVERNMENT? I thought I made that pretty clear. Have you heard the term lobbying? Lobbying just got PIZZA SAUCE declared a vegetable:
All that regulation you blame the government for not imposing was LOBBIED out by the corporations/banks for a very specific reason. THINK. It is a pretty straight forward pyramid of power with the wealthy corrupted oligarchs at the top, followed by the cheaply purchase politicians. Need I drag countless stories of politicians accepting donations and implementing police directly in favor of their donors? In most realities that is called a bribe.
Oppression comes downward, wealth flows upward.
Attempt to debunk my arguments again without any factual proof will only further testify to your ignorance of your own country.
On November 18 2011 11:30 Taguchi wrote: ask yourself this: would there be a 9% unemployment rate in the US if fields needed to be tilled with manual labor? or workers needed in factories to put the screws on products?
the need for a poor/uneducated class is largely obsolete because of technology, but poor people still exist because societal values havent advanced as fast as said technology
Oh, but they do need manual labour in the fields. That's why there's a large illegal migrant worker population in the US, precisely because those unemployed 9% (actually more) don't want to do that stuff for the price that the farms and other places want to pay.
Finally, someone speaks sense about societal values. They will never fully catch up to technology. Is the answer really just given the poor hand outs? That idea is even more antiquated and lags even further behind technological progress.
I'm not arguing against welfare. I agree completely that it's necessary. But as my opposition was talking about "Social Mobility", my story was proof that one can break the bonds of poverty with hard work and dedication. No, not everyone has the motivation to work that hard. As consequence, they will remain in the poorer class. While this seems like a harsh reality, when thought about, it is necessary.
No, your story is a story. Remember how anecdotes are not acceptable as data? That's because they don't prove anything at all.
You are living in a condition of economic illiteracy.
On November 18 2011 11:32 Enki wrote: Soooo the elderly don't have the right to be out protesting because they are old, and who knows if the police will lose their shit and start spraying mace in their face? Are you trolling?
Miraculously, I made it through the day today without being maced by police, beat up, had tear gas thrown at me, or otherwise victimized by "police brutality". Of course, I didn't go obstruct traffic, block people from getting to work, instigate shit with cops, throw broken glass at police, or otherwise provoke them to bring me into compliance with the law. I am already a law-abiding citizen.
I'm also not convinced that Olsen was hit by the police as opposed to protestors themselves.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Hi, how are you? How about you sit down because this is going to hurt. I have a feeling you're a moron and are in need of some educating.
The inequality in the U.S. is a direct result of CRONY-CAPITALISM and make believe democracy. In no WAY do the current drastically low tax rates help small or new business. It is estimated that the beneficiaries of these breaks are in fact the MEGA corporations.
Now these extreme breaks were not enough motivation for your loved ones the super greedy, so they created very special products to trade on. CDO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation , which are in essence HORRIBLE loans they've forced, lied, and tricked low income families into and repackaged. They repackage them, mark them as AAA rating and resell them into the market. Remember these are loans they know are going to fail.
Documentary covering this VERY REAL practice, which under most interpretation of the law is fraud. Watch or shut up.
Next; when their bubble burst and they were supposed to fail and be broken up, as a real free market would call for, they received an enormous government hand out. Sounds like socialism, but not for everyone. The rest of us get crony capitalism while the elites have government security blankets. If you think the 2008 bailout was bad:
These policies were allowed and encouraged by a very corrupt government. Why would they not support these kinds of policies? After their "public service" they become board members and cash out. Still following along here?
So now that we understand how the income inequality was generated entirely by the: apathy of the america people as they were secretly being fucked and the corporate plutocracy who now own your country its time to debunk some the ABSURD solutions being presented by those who got us here:
Record people who can't even get food? Hmmm better hope that government the elites have trained the uneducated to destroy isn't actually destroyed or the streets are going to be a lot more depressing.
It's a pretty devastating situation but it is not without hope. However the uneducated and unwilling, such as yourself, are making it harder for those who actually know whats going on to succeed. Not only does OWS recognize these grave financial injustices but many others : environmental devastation by corporatism, military complex/empire building etc etc....
OWS understands, and is trying to at least call attention to these issues whilst offering REAL solutions:
So no. It's not small businesses that they are against or even large business following the laws that ensure consumer protection and competition. They are very against those who currently ignore, lobby against, and bribe the agencies trying to enforce the law. What part of that CORRUPTION is not clear?
You can feel free to welcome your new Corporate overlords with open arms; while they pay 0% taxes and gut your social programs. Most rational people see this as unacceptable however and that's why OWS is growing.
From now on, all of you OWS doubters, inform yourself, inform others and just try thinking. Please.
Hm. You seem a bit confused. Linking documentaries from obviously biased sources isn't going to sway anyone's opinions.
Lobbying is the problem, you idiot. Lobbying is at the root of all problems in the country. so please, spare me the hyper liberal documentaries and conspiracies and look at it from a mathematical and historical standpoint.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
No I am not on crack thank you, and I don't believe the police targeted her but I do believe she had no place at all being in a situation like that and the OWS people around her should have brought her to safety BEFORE the dung hit the fan not after. Though it does make for a compelling photo, as would a line of disable children.
Hey I'm just trying to give some suggestions on how to help as a thank you for the Occupy Boston folks making me commute a disaster.
On a serious note, do you really think it is smart an 85 year old to be out there with a real possibility of something like this happening, or god forbid she falls.
Hey kids don't dream of better world or try to achieve it.. I HAVE PLACES TO BE DAMN IT, MY DEAD END JOB WILL FIRE ME IF I'M LATE ON MY COMMUTE!!!
Think BIGGER.
And she was there because she was fighting for what is RIGHT. You cannot stop a person who is inspired, regardless of their age.
O and anyone condoning police attacks on their own citizens or claiming the protesters to be at fault for "getting pepper sprayed" should register for a lobotomy. You know the rights they're being brutally denied are the same ones you take for granted every day; they seem less absolute now.
Think.
Perhaps they should focus first on a set of goals then on providing the message on how we all might achieve those goals that can be communicated in a calm and logical method. Instead of focusig on how can we best disrupt those around me to get attention.
She has every right to be there but again my point is don't be surprised when bad things happen. You can't have it both ways with the age card when she is in a mob not not following the orders of the police and somethign bad happens to her.
Yes I have seen that photo many times now. It is image tactics on BOTH sides. The media is no longer simply a media of reporting, and they are very efficient at smearing. Keep in mind that is the NORMAL press who took that picture. Gives you an idea of corruption, lovely. You can say history is built on making a certain side look good, other side bad. Both sides have rights and wrongs. There are legitimate frustrations with the way our government is being handled. That is a fact. The way ows is handling may not be the best way, but it's better then sitting on our asses election after election hoping the problem will go away. Because it's not going away.
I like you reaper You make good points and I agree with a lot of what you say, but now all of it...
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Your anecdote doesn't really illustrate the problem. It's basically a middle class example of a small successful business.
But even so, let's review your anecdote - your father took a big risk, quit his job, and pursued his dream. And it all worked out well and you can now use it as an argument in a debate. But what if it didn't work out?
Moreover, you need to understand that not everyone has the desire to work 15 hours a day for 10 years. This is actually what bugs me the most. You shouldn't HAVE to work 15 hours a day to avoid a shitty job and a shittier wage. Working 15 hours a day is extremely unhealthy, in every sense of the word. You can't fault people who don't want to live like that and expect a fair wage and living conditions for the standard 8 hours a day of work, and you can't measure everyone against a 15 hour per day standard, because that's a horrible standard.
There's nothing unfair about someone being wealthy and able to provide for himself a reasonable amount of luxury. But the problem is on the other end - there is plenty that's unfair about having people living in poverty or on the brink of poverty. It is wrong both because these people are actually suffering, and more importantly because it means that they are inferior and dependent in every way on people at the high end of the income curve, which is a dangerous situation to have because you have people controlling other peoples' lives and fates.
Welfare and accessible education isn't there just to help people out, it's also there to preserve the principles of equality and democracy. If your whole life depends on the whim of your current employer or you aren't being treated or paid fairly, then you are quite simply not free and you can not vote freely or act freely.
I'm not arguing against welfare. I agree completely that it's necessary. But as my opposition was talking about "Social Mobility", my story was proof that one can break the bonds of poverty with hard work and dedication. No, not everyone has the motivation to work that hard. As consequence, they will remain in the poorer class. While this seems like a harsh reality, when thought about, it is necessary.
Imagine if a regular employee was able to work an average amount of hours with average performance. My interpretation of your logic is that he should then be able to rise in his economic state. If you apply this ideal to the real world, you encounter a problem that is mathematically impossible. there is simply not enough money to pay that many people that high.
History dictates that a poor class needs to be larger that the middle and rich classes for a functional society to exist (think of a pyramid). If average work allowed in increase in wealth to occur, then the society would collapse, do to a lack of a labor force and spendable capital.
While idealistically you may be correct, those ideas applied to the real world simply do not work. I grimace at going back to the cliche "Life's not fair", but it speaks the truth in this debate. The poor classes will remain poor for the most part, without doing great things to bring them out of the poor class.
history has never had to deal with mechanized agriculture and computer networks
there is no need for a large poor class to do menial tasks in today's world, and this need will shrink further as technology advances
ask yourself this: would there be a 9% unemployment rate in the US if fields needed to be tilled with manual labor? or workers needed in factories to put the screws on products?
the need for a poor/uneducated class is largely obsolete because of technology, but poor people still exist because societal values havent advanced as fast as said technology
I agree with this as well. But there is a massive problem. There is not enough money in the country to to pay that many people that much money with the current tax rate and government spending. Simply impossible.
Maybe one day in the future when lobbying is made illegal and the government spends money in a much more precise and limited manner, that can happen.
money is irrelevant, it is only a means to an end
the real question is, are there enough basic goods to support some level of living? there surely is enough food to go around, electronics dont really require expensive materials, energy is abundant and still cheap (tech works in our favor here again), pharmaceuticals dont require rare substances, plenty of empty houses for everyone to live in...
the bottleneck is still distribution, not resources (this could change depending on future world population growth but for now we're fine)
Alright, that would be the logical thing to do mechavoc. Unfortunately, take a look at what happened to the Tea party, as mentioned earlier. The system simply laughed and ate them.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
considering the avg age of the tea party i guess they shouldn't have ever protested.
On November 18 2011 11:14 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
On November 18 2011 10:22 Expurgate wrote:
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with income inequality, because there has always been income inequality and there always will be. No country has ever been able to eliminate it. The only problem is the lack of income mobility. The ability for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich. What the OWS crowd want is actually less income mobility, and since it is impossible to remove income inequality they would create a society vastly worse than what we have now.
Lol... You do realize how little social mobility we have currently esp considering our historical high. You also realize number one way of increasing social mobility is though opportunity, usually given though education and i don't ever remember any ows voicing the idea of making education less available to people.
Also if you're going to shit talk you should elaborate, else i can just claim that you're out to do nothing but smear ows.
Over the past 10 years 66% of the lower 20% left their income bracket for a higher one. Only 10% of the lower 20% fell. You think that is little social mobility? 66% leave their bracket for higher incomes? Want me to look up how many of the top 1% and 5% have fallen?
Why yes, I do. Because you're not telling the truth. Why don't you play around with this for a little bit. Data collected by full-time, professional economists, who spend their lives studying this subject, show that inequality and social mobility have gotten substantially worse since.
On November 18 2011 11:32 Enki wrote: Soooo the elderly don't have the right to be out protesting because they are old, and who knows if the police will lose their shit and start spraying mace in their face? Are you trolling?
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Hi, how are you? How about you sit down because this is going to hurt. I have a feeling you're a moron and are in need of some educating.
The inequality in the U.S. is a direct result of CRONY-CAPITALISM and make believe democracy. In no WAY do the current drastically low tax rates help small or new business. It is estimated that the beneficiaries of these breaks are in fact the MEGA corporations.
Now these extreme breaks were not enough motivation for your loved ones the super greedy, so they created very special products to trade on. CDO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation , which are in essence HORRIBLE loans they've forced, lied, and tricked low income families into and repackaged. They repackage them, mark them as AAA rating and resell them into the market. Remember these are loans they know are going to fail.
Documentary covering this VERY REAL practice, which under most interpretation of the law is fraud. Watch or shut up.
Next; when their bubble burst and they were supposed to fail and be broken up, as a real free market would call for, they received an enormous government hand out. Sounds like socialism, but not for everyone. The rest of us get crony capitalism while the elites have government security blankets. If you think the 2008 bailout was bad:
These policies were allowed and encouraged by a very corrupt government. Why would they not support these kinds of policies? After their "public service" they become board members and cash out. Still following along here?
So now that we understand how the income inequality was generated entirely by the: apathy of the america people as they were secretly being fucked and the corporate plutocracy who now own your country its time to debunk some the ABSURD solutions being presented by those who got us here:
Record people who can't even get food? Hmmm better hope that government the elites have trained the uneducated to destroy isn't actually destroyed or the streets are going to be a lot more depressing.
It's a pretty devastating situation but it is not without hope. However the uneducated and unwilling, such as yourself, are making it harder for those who actually know whats going on to succeed. Not only does OWS recognize these grave financial injustices but many others : environmental devastation by corporatism, military complex/empire building etc etc....
OWS understands, and is trying to at least call attention to these issues whilst offering REAL solutions:
So no. It's not small businesses that they are against or even large business following the laws that ensure consumer protection and competition. They are very against those who currently ignore, lobby against, and bribe the agencies trying to enforce the law. What part of that CORRUPTION is not clear?
You can feel free to welcome your new Corporate overlords with open arms; while they pay 0% taxes and gut your social programs. Most rational people see this as unacceptable however and that's why OWS is growing.
From now on, all of you OWS doubters, inform yourself, inform others and just try thinking. Please.
Hm. You seem a bit confused. Linking documentaries from obviously biased sources isn't going to sway anyone's opinions.
Lobbying is the problem, you idiot. Lobbying is at the root of all problems in the country. so please, spare me the hyper liberal documentaries and conspiracies and look at it from a mathematical and historical standpoint.
I specifically cover the lobbying issue under the CORRUPT GOVERNMENT sections. I love arguing with the clearly retarded because they just make shit up. All of those sources are the MEDIA what else can I link you, they all provide their direct sources too. Majority of which are the actual statistics.
Again I see NO EVIDENCE what so ever from you to support any of your nonsense. 0 evidence. Lobbying is a LARGE problem, but who is doing the lobbying? Hm? Exactly corporate OWNERS.
Provide ANY evidence to back up your nonsense and then MAYBE you can claim my "sources" to be biased. As it stands now you're just blowing hot hair.
EPT
