On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
but he already pays more than u in taxes, why take away his hard earned money from him?
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
I got an idea. How about we cut fund for this huge government we have hemorrhaging money every time we turn around?
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
I would love to know where you got that info. How do you know the police enjoyed it?
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
I keep hearing this quote being repeated by the media and OWS alike, and I think it may be misleading. I agree that the difference between the have and have-nots in the US is greater than anywhere else, but isn't that just because most of the world's wealthy people live in the US anyway? What I'm trying to say is that even if the inequality between the rich and the poor is the highest, that doesn't mean that the absolute middle class standard of living is lower in the US compared to other countries. The US still has the lowest food prices and lowest prices on most goods (e.g. amazon.com is amazingly cheap compared to amazon.co.uk or amazin.ca etc;). And to top that off, middle class occupations still have higher salaries in the US compared to other countries (e.g. accountants, engineers, IT professionals all earn more in the US)
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Because income inequality reduces social mobility. The correlation is fairly well established. That is, very unequal distributions of wealth (some inequality does not seem to be problematic, based on the data) make it harder for other people to improve their own situation.
On November 18 2011 10:49 Talin wrote: Moreover, you need to understand that not everyone has the desire to work 15 hours a day for 10 years. This is actually what bugs me the most. You shouldn't HAVE to work 15 hours a day to avoid a shitty job and a shittier wage. Working 15 hours a day is extremely unhealthy, in every sense of the word. You can't fault people who don't want to live like that and expect a fair wage and living conditions for the standard 8 hours a day of work, and you can't measure everyone against a 15 hour per day standard, because that's a horrible standard.
Working 15 hours isn't treading water. That's how you get ahead. And it's not just working 15 hours. You have to spend that time wisely or it still won't get you anywhere. People work 8 hours and get a fair and standard wage. Over time the standard wage has dropped because there are people willing to work those same hours for less overseas and companies are providing those people the opportunity. For the rest of the unambitious, don't work 15 hours. Don't be unhealthy in work. Don't expect to get ahead. Don't expect social mobility. Don't cry foul against those that worked long and smart.
On November 18 2011 10:22 Expurgate wrote: If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
Anecdotal evidence is a good counter to categorical and unqualified arguments and policies. Are the entire 1% bad? Is the inequality uniformly undeserved? Do you punish an entire people because of stereotypes?
If you have a total lack of nuance and will throw the baby out with the bath water, anecdotes expose the blunt clumsiness of your ideas.
Occupy Boston decides to march down the major road outside of my office tonight..... At RUSH HOUR.
Thank you for making my ride home a nightmare I am now 100% behind your cause <sarcasm off>
You know minds are changed by the logic of you message and proposed solutions. Minds are not changed by the volume of your yelling, the amount of vandalism you inflict on my city, or the number of hours you add to my commute home by taking over the street.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Because if your father payed 10% more taxes, you would still be able to afford almost as much as you can now, but these 10% would literally save several poor families. Inequality is good when it remains within certain boundaries. In USA however the inequality is far greater than in most other developed countries. Slight adjustments here can greatly help the country and its people.
I keep hearing this quote being repeated by the media and OWS alike, and I think it may be misleading. I agree that the difference between the have and have-nots in the US is greater than anywhere else, but isn't that just because most of the world's wealthy people live in the US anyway? What I'm trying to say is that even if the inequality between the rich and the poor is the highest, that doesn't mean that the absolute middle class standard of living is lower in the US compared to other countries. The US still has the lowest food prices and lowest prices on most goods (e.g. amazon.com is amazingly cheap compared to amazon.co.uk or amazin.ca etc;). And to top that off, middle class occupations still have higher salaries in the US compared to other countries (e.g. accountants, engineers, IT professionals all earn more in the US)
so? usa should be #1 by far, but it's not
how many slums do u think u will find in sweden or norway? the us middle class is a smaller percentile of the total population compared to the world's best managed countries (not that those countries dont have fixable problems, but yeah), so why not strive to become better instead of saying 'well it kinda works out since we're the top dogs right now, so lets leave it like that and hope we dont decline like every single top dog before us'
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Hi, how are you? How about you sit down because this is going to hurt. I have a feeling you're a moron and are in need of some educating.
The inequality in the U.S. is a direct result of CRONY-CAPITALISM and make believe democracy. In no WAY do the current drastically low tax rates help small or new business. It is estimated that the beneficiaries of these breaks are in fact the MEGA corporations.
Now these extreme breaks were not enough motivation for your loved ones the super greedy, so they created very special products to trade on. CDO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation , which are in essence HORRIBLE loans they've forced, lied, and tricked low income families into and repackaged. They repackage them, mark them as AAA rating and resell them into the market. Remember these are loans they know are going to fail.
Documentary covering this VERY REAL practice, which under most interpretation of the law is fraud. Watch or shut up.
Next; when their bubble burst and they were supposed to fail and be broken up, as a real free market would call for, they received an enormous government hand out. Sounds like socialism, but not for everyone. The rest of us get crony capitalism while the elites have government security blankets. If you think the 2008 bailout was bad:
These policies were allowed and encouraged by a very corrupt government. Why would they not support these kinds of policies? After their "public service" they become board members and cash out. Still following along here?
So now that we understand how the income inequality was generated entirely by the: apathy of the america people as they were secretly being fucked and the corporate plutocracy who now own your country its time to debunk some the ABSURD solutions being presented by those who got us here:
He's right. Do your own research; he's right. How about some of the tax proposals?
Record people who can't even get food? Hmmm better hope that government the elites have trained the uneducated to destroy isn't actually destroyed or the streets are going to be a lot more depressing.
It's a pretty devastating situation but it is not without hope. However the uneducated and unwilling, such as yourself, are making it harder for those who actually know whats going on to succeed. Not only does OWS recognize these grave financial injustices but many others : environmental devastation by corporatism, military complex/empire building etc etc....
OWS understands, and is trying to at least call attention to these issues whilst offering REAL solutions:
So no. It's not small businesses that they are against or even large business following the laws that ensure consumer protection and competition. They are very against those who currently ignore, lobby against, and bribe the agencies trying to enforce the law. What part of that CORRUPTION is not clear?
You can feel free to welcome your new Corporate overlords with open arms; while they pay 0% taxes and gut your social programs. Most rational people see this as unacceptable however and that's why OWS is growing.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with income inequality, because there has always been income inequality and there always will be. No country has ever been able to eliminate it. The only problem is the lack of income mobility. The ability for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich. What the OWS crowd want is actually less income mobility, and since it is impossible to remove income inequality they would create a society vastly worse than what we have now.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Hi, how are you? How about you sit down because this is going to hurt. I have a feeling you're a moron and are in need of some educating.
The inequality in the U.S. is a direct result of CRONY-CAPITALISM and make believe democracy. In no WAY do the current drastically low tax rates help small or new business. It is estimated that the beneficiaries of these breaks are in fact the MEGA corporations.
The government makes tax law, not businesses.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Now these extreme breaks were not enough motivation for your loved ones the super greedy, so they created very special products to trade one. CDO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation , which are in essence HORRIBLE loans they've forced, lied, and tricked low income families into and repackaged. They repackage them, mark them as AAA rating and resell them into the market. Remember these are loans they know are going to fail.
Peter Schiff is the foremost predictor of the housing market crash and said it was entirely the because of government regulation. So again it's governments fault.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Documentary covering this VERY REAL practice, which under most interpretation of the law is fraud. Watch or shut up.
Next; when their bubble burst and they were supposed to fail and be broken up, as a real free market would call for, they received an enormous government hand out. Sounds like socialism, but not for everyone. The rest of us get crony capitalism while the elites have government security blankets. If you think the 2008 bailout was bad:
These policies were allowed and encouraged by a very corrupt government. Why would they not support these kinds of policies? After their "public service" they become board members and cash out. Still following along here?
And again the government is the one responsible for the bailouts, not companies.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: So now that we understand how the income inequality was generated entirely by the: apathy of the america people as they were secretly being fucked and the corporate plutocracy who know own your country its time to debunk some the ABSURD solutions being presented by those who got us here:
The states and counties which vote predominately democrat are poorer and less free if you want to correlate anything. Which again is the fault of government.
On November 18 2011 11:14 jmack wrote: Record people who can't even get food? Hmmm better hope that government the elites have trained the uneducated to destroy isn't actually destroyed or the streets are going to be a lot more depressing.
It's a pretty devastating situation but it is not without hope. However the uneducated and unwilling, such as yourself, are making it harder for those who actually know whats going on to succeed. Not only does OWS recognize these grave financial injustices but many others : environmental devastation by corporatism, military complex/empire building etc etc....
OWS understands, and is trying to at least call attention to these issues whilst offering REAL solutions:
So no. It's not small businesses that they are against or even large business following the laws that ensure consumer protection and competition. They are very against those who currently ignore, lobby against, and bribe the agencies trying to enforce the law. What part of that CORRUPTION is not clear?
You can feel free to welcome your new Corporate overlords with open arms; while they pay 0% taxes and gut your social programs. Most rational people see this as unacceptable however and that's why OWS is growing.
From now on, all of you OWS doubters, inform yourself, inform others and just try thinking. Please.
Paying money to get something done makes you an accomplice. The truly corrupt is the government. But you fail to understand that, which is why OWS doesn't actually recognize anything. The government is the mob boss and wall street is the businesses who launder the money. Removing the businesses doesn't remove the crime, because the boss is still in charge.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
Okay brother has informed me she is an activist who does this deliberately on many accounts. Fine, but still that is no way to go about the situation. How about this. Both sides are in the wrong*. Metaphorically smacks their heads together. Great work America, and American people.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Your anecdote doesn't really illustrate the problem. It's basically a middle class example of a small successful business.
But even so, let's review your anecdote - your father took a big risk, quit his job, and pursued his dream. And it all worked out well and you can now use it as an argument in a debate. But what if it didn't work out?
Moreover, you need to understand that not everyone has the desire to work 15 hours a day for 10 years. This is actually what bugs me the most. You shouldn't HAVE to work 15 hours a day to avoid a shitty job and a shittier wage. Working 15 hours a day is extremely unhealthy, in every sense of the word. You can't fault people who don't want to live like that and expect a fair wage and living conditions for the standard 8 hours a day of work, and you can't measure everyone against a 15 hour per day standard, because that's a horrible standard.
There's nothing unfair about someone being wealthy and able to provide for himself a reasonable amount of luxury. But the problem is on the other end - there is plenty that's unfair about having people living in poverty or on the brink of poverty. It is wrong both because these people are actually suffering, and more importantly because it means that they are inferior and dependent in every way on people at the high end of the income curve, which is a dangerous situation to have because you have people controlling other peoples' lives and fates.
Welfare and accessible education isn't there just to help people out, it's also there to preserve the principles of equality and democracy. If your whole life depends on the whim of your current employer or you aren't being treated or paid fairly, then you are quite simply not free and you can not vote freely or act freely.
I'm not arguing against welfare. I agree completely that it's necessary. But as my opposition was talking about "Social Mobility", my story was proof that one can break the bonds of poverty with hard work and dedication. No, not everyone has the motivation to work that hard. As consequence, they will remain in the poorer class. While this seems like a harsh reality, when thought about, it is necessary.
Imagine if a regular employee was able to work an average amount of hours with average performance. My interpretation of your logic is that he should then be able to rise in his economic state. If you apply this ideal to the real world, you encounter a problem that is mathematically impossible. there is simply not enough money to pay that many people that high.
History dictates that a poor class needs to be larger that the middle and rich classes for a functional society to exist (think of a pyramid). If average work allowed in increase in wealth to occur, then the society would collapse, do to a lack of a labor force and spendable capital.
While idealistically you may be correct, those ideas applied to the real world simply do not work. I grimace at going back to the cliche "Life's not fair", but it speaks the truth in this debate. The poor classes will remain poor for the most part, without doing great things to bring them out of the poor class.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
considering the avg age of the tea party i guess they shouldn't have ever protested.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with income inequality, because there has always been income inequality and there always will be. No country has ever been able to eliminate it. The only problem is the lack of income mobility. The ability for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich. What the OWS crowd want is actually less income mobility, and since it is impossible to remove income inequality they would create a society vastly worse than what we have now.
Lol... You do realize how little social mobility we have currently esp considering our historical high. You also realize number one way of increasing social mobility is though opportunity, usually given though education and i don't ever remember any ows voicing the idea of making education less available to people.
Also if you're going to shit talk you should elaborate, else i can just claim that you're out to do nothing but smear ows.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
Why exactly should corruption be put aside when that is precisely the argument. There is no problem with some people being rich and some people being poor. In fact there isn't much wrong with only a few people being rich and many people being relatively poor. The issue is when the rich have consolidated too much power. Too much power through your institutionalized system of bribery (lobbying), too much power in shifting the tax burden away from corporations and the rich and onto the middle class and lower class who can ill afford the burden. And furthermore creating a syste (among other things) whereby things like basic healthcare is inacessible to the lower and middle class due to cost. On wearetheother99 livestream, they ran across a group of doctors that had joined the protest because one of the most consistent issues they come across is that they are unable to give their patients help because they are unable to afford it. On example he gave was a patient that came in and wanted to the bare minimum because he couldn't afford it. And a good portion of these are people with healthcare insurance. Apparently leading cause of bankruptcy is medical expenses.
A range of incomes is not inherently bad. However, the rich having too much power in government is and people bankrupting themselves on medical expenses while corporations and banks get bail outs and an insane amount of tax loopholes. It's a system that grinds the poor down with, but because a few escape to higher levels everyone above can shake fingers and say how lazy the rest are for working 3 minimum wage jobs.
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
No I am not on crack thank you, and I don't believe the police targeted her but I do believe she had no place at all being in a situation like that and the OWS people around her should have brought her to safety BEFORE the dung hit the fan not after. Though it does make for a compelling photo, as would a line of disable children.
Hey I'm just trying to give some suggestions on how to help as a thank you for the Occupy Boston folks making me commute a disaster.
On a serious note, do you really think it is smart an 85 year old to be out there with a real possibility of something like this happening, or god forbid she falls.
On November 18 2011 10:19 Lucidx wrote: This protest is sadly a bunch of mis-informed individuals. One can conclude that these people are angry because of the gap between rich and poor, how it's not fair that someone could be so rich.
This becomes a fundamental question of why is it unfair for someone to be rich? Let us put aside corruption, as cooperate corruption is unfair and I fully understand anger towards corrupt business practices. For example, If you believe OWS statistics, that would put my (broken) family in the 1%.
We weren't always here. My father was a police officer, and my mother was a nurse, both working full time to support the family. Then, my father took a big risk and quit his job to become a self employed consultant. He worked 15 hours a day, sometimes more, for 10 years to make his dream a reality. And now he's here, making enough to support two households comfortably.
Why demonize my father? What did he do wrong? By working hard for his family to live a comfortable lifestyle, he is now the target of these foolish protesters. Why is it unfair that he followed the American dream? That he defied the odds and made a profitable small business out of nothing.
OWS sympathizers, enlighten me. Tell me why my father is such a terrible rich person. Tell me why Apple, who made that iPhone that you're using to tweet about OWS is so bad to the 98%. I'm curious.
If you don't already know why wealth inequality is bad, there's not much we can do for you.
Also, anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in any real contest of ideas.
I'm quite aware that wealth inequality is economically unstable, and lead to the great depression, etc. Fine. Then remove the anecdote. Why is it unfair for someone to obey the law and make a successful business?
Your anecdote doesn't really illustrate the problem. It's basically a middle class example of a small successful business.
But even so, let's review your anecdote - your father took a big risk, quit his job, and pursued his dream. And it all worked out well and you can now use it as an argument in a debate. But what if it didn't work out?
Moreover, you need to understand that not everyone has the desire to work 15 hours a day for 10 years. This is actually what bugs me the most. You shouldn't HAVE to work 15 hours a day to avoid a shitty job and a shittier wage. Working 15 hours a day is extremely unhealthy, in every sense of the word. You can't fault people who don't want to live like that and expect a fair wage and living conditions for the standard 8 hours a day of work, and you can't measure everyone against a 15 hour per day standard, because that's a horrible standard.
There's nothing unfair about someone being wealthy and able to provide for himself a reasonable amount of luxury. But the problem is on the other end - there is plenty that's unfair about having people living in poverty or on the brink of poverty. It is wrong both because these people are actually suffering, and more importantly because it means that they are inferior and dependent in every way on people at the high end of the income curve, which is a dangerous situation to have because you have people controlling other peoples' lives and fates.
Welfare and accessible education isn't there just to help people out, it's also there to preserve the principles of equality and democracy. If your whole life depends on the whim of your current employer or you aren't being treated or paid fairly, then you are quite simply not free and you can not vote freely or act freely.
I'm not arguing against welfare. I agree completely that it's necessary. But as my opposition was talking about "Social Mobility", my story was proof that one can break the bonds of poverty with hard work and dedication. No, not everyone has the motivation to work that hard. As consequence, they will remain in the poorer class. While this seems like a harsh reality, when thought about, it is necessary.
Imagine if a regular employee was able to work an average amount of hours with average performance. My interpretation of your logic is that he should then be able to rise in his economic state. If you apply this ideal to the real world, you encounter a problem that is mathematically impossible. there is simply not enough money to pay that many people that high.
History dictates that a poor class needs to be larger that the middle and rich classes for a functional society to exist (think of a pyramid). If average work allowed in increase in wealth to occur, then the society would collapse, do to a lack of a labor force and spendable capital.
While idealistically you may be correct, those ideas applied to the real world simply do not work. I grimace at going back to the cliche "Life's not fair", but it speaks the truth in this debate. The poor classes will remain poor for the most part, without doing great things to bring them out of the poor class.
history has never had to deal with mechanized agriculture and computer networks
there is no need for a large poor class to do menial tasks in today's world, and this need will shrink further as technology advances
ask yourself this: would there be a 9% unemployment rate in the US if fields needed to be tilled with manual labor? or workers needed in factories to put the screws on products?
the need for a poor/uneducated class is largely obsolete because of technology, but poor people still exist because societal values havent advanced as fast as said technology
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Soooo the elderly don't have the right to be out protesting because they are old, and who knows if the police will lose their shit and start spraying mace in their face? Are you trolling?
On November 18 2011 07:26 imperator-xy wrote: yea id just shoot all o' them
Yeah, you have some fucking problems.
Can't believe people are defending the police who enjoy macing 84 year old women, pretty sad. Then there are other people, who aren't even from the U.S, questioning why people are doing this in the first place. Holy shit, really?
If you don't know how this country works then just don't comment please, getting rather tired of reading bullshit. Maybe some don't agree with OWS and everything they are doing, I certainly don't, but there is no need to wish violence or death upon them.
Enki do you really think an 85 year old should be out in a protest like that? Talk about exploitation great photo op, maybe OWS should bring out disabled kids next in wheel chairs as a front line against the wall of police.
The police are out numbered and are not going to take chances when people are not following their requests so a little common sense should come into play here. Heck I get nervous for my 80yr old grandmother safety when there is a high curb she needs to navigate.
Still not how you fucking treat the elderly, brats. Out there or not out there, don't be idiotic. People fight for what they believe for. Now you are just on crack and insulting people. Bringing dis-abled children out? WTF.
Okay brother has informed me she is an activist who does this deliberately on many accounts. Fine, but still that is no way to go about the situation. How about this. Both sides are in the wrong*. Metaphorically smacks their heads together. Great work America, and American people.
EPT
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