EPTOccupy Wall Street - Page 152
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Lasbike
France2888 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
I don't have the time to follow anything right now, since I have too much work, but to my understanding it is mostly a middle class protest (at least in France), like most protest nowadays (because yeah, the middle class kids are going to live in worst condition than their fathers). The only thing that tickle me is that I never see the actual people that suffer in these protests. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 08 2011 03:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: From Veteranstoday.com showing proof that Occupy Oakland was a larger than 7k than what the mainstream media reported it as: I'm not going to defend the mass media but it depend on the way you count the people. It's well known in France because it always create a mess : the syndicate count every people, posting people who have the job to count in key places. The police (and the mass media) count by helicopter : they count the total surface of the protest (1km² for exemple) and then count the number of people in 1m². Then they do the math. (sorry for double post, wanted to edit but forgot to) | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Something about Money, rights and whatnot i guess. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On November 14 2011 22:47 Grettin wrote: I really haven't cared what this has been about and still don't know what this is all about. I'm watching some live feed from Oakland right now. Why are people in Oakland, France etc? Something about Money, rights and whatnot i guess. It depends on who you talk to. IMO, there's too many groups involved and no real leadership to say they stand for any one thing. Though, I think the main thing that everyone there has rallied behind is that the government and big business/the wealthy have too much hand holding going on that has created a system that coddles those in power while shafting the middle and lower class. Even the moderate wealthy get shafted a bit through taxes compared to the super wealthy, but they have enough wealth that it doesn't feel so bad. Of course, there's also the college kid who got a degree in medieval history and wants the government to somehow create them a job. Or the anarchist who thinks government is the whole problem. Or the socialist who thinks the government can take care of everyone. But I think the main point to take away is that the system is fucked up and it undoubtedly favors those who already have lots of money/wealth. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
From Veteranstoday.com showing proof that Occupy Oakland was a larger than 7k than what the mainstream media reported it as: Doesn't look larger than 7k. | ||
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Apom
France655 Posts
On November 14 2011 20:33 Lasbike wrote: In France, "Occupy La Défense" (La Défense is the biggest business district in France) went bad : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoD7L1FCtqE&feature=share&fb_source=message I'm still trying to find where it went bad in that video. Other than the Youtube title, I mean. Some tents are dismantled and the people in them forcefully extracted, with the policemen making visible efforts to not cause any actual injury to anyone (the video shows someone complaining about being hit on the leg with a baton, yes it fucking hurts, but come on). Also those protesters occupy the grounds of a government building (the Grande Arche houses various services of the ministry for transportation, infrastructure and environment). If they wanted to make it a point to protest against "banksters", there are actual banks all around the place. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
Really just depends on how you count moving people usually they count in still shots from a helicopter and estimate each person is taking up about 1 opened up news paper of standing room and estimate it based off how much of the picture has people covering it. Most times they don't count people walking in a line for 2 miles how ever long that is. That is clearly more then 7k people =p a 4 lane rising high way is what 45-50 feet wide? I don't think it's 100k just eye balling it on that stretch of high way and what you can see in that vid is closer to 30-40k. about 2-3 feet of standing room the crowd is walking so lets make it 3 sq ft per person in that area, based on th video it shows about 0.8 miles of crowd not showing the full length of the crowd past 3rd street and stopping at the port of oakland entrance. So 0.8 miles to feet is 4224ft 4224ft x 45ft wide avg = 190080 sq ft which given / 3 feet per person is 63360 people. Way more then 7k so suck it even if you were very conservative 0.6 miles -> 3168ft x 40ft (wide 4 lane high way which is very small for US high ways) = 126720 / 7ft a person = 18,103k people pretty sure lanes need to be 11-12ft wide so 4 lane high way being 40 ft wide is absurdly small, 7k number is clearly wrong by any measure, it's just a matter of by how much, i'm sure if you nit picked and broke up the pictures from the video feed into sections then gave per person numbers based on that you can bring it down to like 15k but nothing as low as 7k esp considering that it doesn't show the whole crowd size for that march, the point of that video is to show how bias the media esp to how some sources treated crowds for the tea party and their whole deal about tea party bloggers making shit up about photos posting 10 year old photos then fox picking it up making other news organizations pick it up and calling it a huge showing. If you wonder where i got my numbers look at a map =p ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RMIcw.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VgAuk.png) | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
![[image loading]](http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Picture-5.png) | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: In response to the re-breaking up of occupy oakland by the police, this time without tear gas I heard reports it was also said on his facebook similar sentiments but his name is too common for me just to look up easily | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:51 Apom wrote: I'm still trying to find where it went bad in that video. Other than the Youtube title, I mean. Some tents are dismantled and the people in them forcefully extracted, with the policemen making visible efforts to not cause any actual injury to anyone (the video shows someone complaining about being hit on the leg with a baton, yes it fucking hurts, but come on). Also those protesters occupy the grounds of a government building (the Grande Arche houses various services of the ministry for transportation, infrastructure and environment). If they wanted to make it a point to protest against "banksters", there are actual banks all around the place. I can't believe what I was watching. Law enforcement in riot gear playing tug of war ? WTF. Not even authority has any authority there. Should have simply gassed them if they wanted the clear the area. Law enforcement should never be in an "even fight" with whomever they are trying to impose authority over. It's always supposed to be one step higher. If they physically resist, which these people are, you don't meet that with mere physical resistance of your own, you pull out the batons and forcibly remove their hands from the tents or you gas them. Problem solved. Try this in NYC and see what happens. | ||
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mechavoc
United States664 Posts
It is always much easier to be against something and point out the flaws in a plan or system. It is much much harder to be for something and propose realistic/practical solutions to problems. As the old saying goes capitalism is the worst system of distribution, with the exception of all others. It is interesting looking at the OWS camps as a microcosm of the larger economic problems a society faces. They obviously have the best of intentions and socialism works very well in small settings (Families are a successful socialist endeavor) but fail in larger groups because people exploit others. The OWS camps themselves demonstrated this as they seemed to work out well at the start, but as the group grows larger problems manifest. Homelesspeople joining them for the free food tax the OWS’s ability to feed everyone at the camps, Disease issues (tuberculosis), Serious crime with reports of drug use, rape, several deaths, and finally in true ironic form legal issues about copyright for the term Occupy ..., sources/uses of money etc.. So if they can't even get their act together to create their utopia on the small scale what can they possibly offer society to solve issues on the large scale.... ? So in the end what value are they adding? | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:16 mechavoc wrote: My Real big question for the OWS people is what is your proposed alternative system? It is always much easier to be against something and point out the flaws in a plan or system. It is much much harder to be for something and propose realistic/practical solutions to problems. As the old saying goes capitalism is the worst system of distribution, with the exception of all others. It is interesting looking at the OWS camps as a microcosm of the larger economic problems a society faces. They obviously have the best of intentions and socialism works very well in small settings (Families are a successful socialist endeavor) but fail in larger groups because people exploit others. The OWS camps themselves demonstrated this as they seemed to work out well at the start, but as the group grows larger problems manifest. Homelesspeople joining them for the free food tax the OWS’s ability to feed everyone at the camps, Disease issues (tuberculosis), Serious crime with reports of drug use, rape, several deaths, and finally in true ironic form legal issues about copyright for the term Occupy ..., sources/uses of money etc.. So if they can't even get their act together to create their utopia on the small scale what can they possibly offer society to solve issues on the large scale.... ? So in the end what value are they adding As the old saying goes capitalism is the worst system of distribution, with the exception of all others. OWS isn't anticapitalism. It is interesting looking at the OWS camps as a microcosm of the larger economic problems a society faces. This makes no sense whatsoever. These things will happen at any protest with this many people. | ||
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JimSocks
United States968 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:26 JimSocks wrote: theres suppose to evict the people in philly tomorrow. there's not that many people here, but they say they aint going home when the cops come. Of course not, more than likely be another rinse and repeat as the cops storm or just move in the protesters leave or make sure they all have their cameras on. Then move back in as the Cops can't just stay there. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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mechavoc
United States664 Posts
It is interesting looking at the OWS camps as a microcosm of the larger economic problems a society faces. This makes no sense whatsoever. These things will happen at any protest with this many people. [/QUOTE] Not sure why it doesn't make sense as you did get my point. Any large group of people living together will have these problems. From what I understand (and I could be missing the point here) they are rallying against the ills of our "corrupt" economic and social system. That system has been made to maintain order and deal with the problems that come with being a society. I just find it interesting and a little ironic that this group whose focus is on making a "better" society has so far been unable to make better solutions to these basic problems. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:26 Nothingtosay wrote: As the old saying goes capitalism is the worst system of distribution, with the exception of all others. OWS isn't anticapitalism. It is interesting looking at the OWS camps as a microcosm of the larger economic problems a society faces. This makes no sense whatsoever. These things will happen at any protest with this many people. I thought that was pretty much the driving factor behind all of the OWS movement, that they were mad that the rich were getting richer and the poor not. I thought they believed that it was the cause of government business interaction, which i suppose is part of the problem but it doesn't change the fact that capitalism inherently works by making companies hugely powerful who are successful. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:29 Grumbels wrote: Why should OWS come up with an alternative? The solutions are out there. On virtually any issue in the world there's a vast amount of academic literature as to what would be a sensible course of action, from environmental to economic policies. Coming up with the solutions is not OWS' task, it's simply a demonstration of not agreeing with the political culture of the USA and possibly its culture in general. I read some description that said: "It's the closest thing to going on strike at your culture we have." Yes it is, If you're going to whine and bitch and ironically WASTE resource (pay for police to make sure things stay non-violent, disruption of business and peoples daily lives) that you claim the government is wasting, you better dam straight have a solution. Otherwise you're just some kid screaming for attention. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:39 Ace.Xile wrote: Yes it is, If you're going to whine and bitch and ironically WASTE resource (pay for police to make sure things stay non-violent, disruption of business and peoples daily lives) that you claim the government is wasting, you better dam straight have a solution. Otherwise you're just some kid screaming for attention. So in your world you rather have something wrong and not do anything until it becomes clear that everyone agrees upon a solution to fix it. And they should come to that solution and convince the majority of people that it is the solution without ever gathering in public? It would be rather odd for a movement who dislike back room deals to give solutions via back room deals. It's not ironic at all, look up the word, no matter the form of irony it's not that, OWS doesn't claim government is wasting money they claim government coddles the wealthy and is in the hands of the wealthy of the country which leads to the middle and bottom getting shafted, which is much more then being just about taxes it's about government's role in general. The only irony here is dramatic irony as most people in the thread already know that but you do not. The tea party is against government waste, ows is against plutocracy get it right bro... | ||
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