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Occupy Wall Street - Page 146

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bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
November 06 2011 02:48 GMT
#2901
On November 04 2011 06:36 Gnial wrote:
Occupy Vancouver protester overdoses on narcotic
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/occupy-vancouver-protester-overdoses-on-narcotic/article2224264/

This article is about one of the protesters who overdosed on heroin at the protests! Given that now 1% of the protesters have OD'd on heroin, I've got a new slogan for them: "1% of the protesters have 90% of the overdoses. Occupy Vancouver General Hospital!"

The top rated comments:

1. If he were part of the 1% he could have afforded quality junk. No wonder he is upset.

2. Now the working Canadians have to fork out another 5 to 10 k to treat this junkie, so that he can "occupy" again to demand that social services and welfare be increased, and drugs be legalized......funny ehh??

3. Overdosed by 9:20 ......sounds like he's very serious about the cause

4. The reason it's news worthy is that this guy symbolizes for the useless scumbags occupying public property and demanding more handouts from people who actually work. The more media attention they get, the more obvious it becomes that these worthless degenerates are victims of being lazy and immature and nothing else.

5. What, the Occulosers are just a bunch of drug-addled layabouts?! Colour me shocked.

6. Since these protesters have a list of demands (see their website), maybe those of us who can't cut out of work and pitch a tent at the Art Gallery could demand a few things. For starters, I DEMAND that the pathetic loser who almost OD's on heroin be made to pay any and all medical expenses directly from his own pocket. Why should ordinary Canadians who pay into healthcare have too see any amount skimmed off to pay for his illegal activity? Sound fair?

7. Occupy my veins. Occupy my brain. Yeah - sounds about right.

+ Show Spoiler +
A quick response saved the life of a young man at Occupy Vancouver who overdosed on a narcotic, Vancouver city fire chief John McKearney says.

A man between the age of 25 and 30 went into full cardiac arrest at 9:20 am Thursday, he said in an interview moments after the man was taken to St. Paul’s Hospital.

“It was very serious,” he said, adding that the man was now breathing and expected to be okay.

Fire chief McKearney attributed the favourable outcome to the quick response.

The man received first aid and then was helped by city firemen who were near the protest site on the plaza outside Vancouver Art Gallery.

Mr. McKearney said it was not immediately clear what drug was in the man’s system but the speculation is that it was heroin, he said.

A visibly shaken man who administered first aid to the overdose victim was at the first aid tent at Occupy Vancouver. But he declined to be interviewed.

"I've just been through a traumatic experience and I don't want to talk about it," he said. He declined to give his name.

Cameron Bode, a member of the Occupy Vancouver media committee, said the young man received better care for his overdose than he likely would have received if Occupy Vancouver was not there.

"We have on-site medical staff who responded to his distress within seconds. Then fire and ambulance people came in," he said.

"We had a conscious person taken away," Mr. Bode said.

"If not for the Occupation, there would have not been the timely attention that he received," he said.

Mr. Bode did not speak directly with those involved in responding to the incident. Based on conversation with others, he speculated that the man who overdosed may have been a drug addict with mental health issues.

Drugs are as common at Occupy Vancouver as in any other community in Vancouver, Mr. Bode said.

The media comittee has a policy of no drugs, no alcohol and no smoking but the general assembly has not endorsed a non-drug use policy, he said.

The downward spiral continues at Occupy Vancouver as a protester died today.

I think it weird that the Occupy Vancouver folks haven't established a no-drinking-no-drugs rule, as it was one of the first rules established by the Toronto folks to ensure that there were no obvious reasons to evict them.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
Taku
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada2036 Posts
November 06 2011 03:11 GMT
#2902
On November 06 2011 11:48 bonifaceviii wrote:

I think it weird that the Occupy Vancouver folks haven't established a no-drinking-no-drugs rule, as it was one of the first rules established by the Toronto folks to ensure that there were no obvious reasons to evict them.

Vancouver has a very active 'professional protestor' scene as any residents here have noticed, especially in the lead-up to the olympics. Lots of special interest groups often with the wackiest demands and funding from god knows where. But yeah they're generally bleeding-heart advocates of people on the street who have a strange slant on reality.

It's really a pity but from talking with some people I know who were involved with Occupy Vancouver in the beginning, the whole thing just got hijacked and went downhill from there.
When SC2 came for BW, I cried. Now LoL/Dota2 comes for SC2, and I laugh. \o/
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
November 06 2011 14:54 GMT
#2903
A somewhat interesting take on the Occupy Wall Street:
http://cultureatkamelia.wordpress.com/

The 1 % strikes back:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/traders-from-chicago-board-of-trade-dump-mcdonalds-applications-on-occupy-chicago-protesters/
Repeat before me
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 15:39:44
November 06 2011 15:39 GMT
#2904
look at this. Corporations playing upon the movement.
http://jobsforthe99.com/
such bull IMO. I knew stuff like this was going to happen.
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
November 06 2011 16:16 GMT
#2905
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm
Flyingdutchman
Profile Joined March 2009
Netherlands858 Posts
November 06 2011 16:22 GMT
#2906
On November 07 2011 01:16 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm


lol, why would you react to a post filled with lies. Just leave it since there is absolutely no merit in anything he said
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
November 06 2011 16:33 GMT
#2907
there are more memes about occupywallstreet than people caring about occupy it self
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
November 06 2011 16:38 GMT
#2908
On November 07 2011 01:22 Flyingdutchman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2011 01:16 HellRoxYa wrote:
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm


lol, why would you react to a post filled with lies. Just leave it since there is absolutely no merit in anything he said


Sure, except 4-5 people on the previous page said he was "right about everything" and they "completely agree".
Flyingdutchman
Profile Joined March 2009
Netherlands858 Posts
November 06 2011 17:24 GMT
#2909
On November 07 2011 01:38 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2011 01:22 Flyingdutchman wrote:
On November 07 2011 01:16 HellRoxYa wrote:
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm


lol, why would you react to a post filled with lies. Just leave it since there is absolutely no merit in anything he said


Sure, except 4-5 people on the previous page said he was "right about everything" and they "completely agree".

Could be, personally I thought it was a rather short sighted and cliche filled story in which he himself had so much faith that he felt the need to lie about what he is just to give it some merit. Maybe I'm a bit harsh at the moment, getting owned in SC the past few days
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 17:46:35
November 06 2011 17:43 GMT
#2910
On November 07 2011 01:16 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm


That's not the argument.

The argument is that higher taxes will not solve any of the problems the OWSers complain about.

I know you guys in Sweden love to brag about how high your taxes are, but that rhetoric isn't the answer to the problems facing America.

Higher tax rates =/= higher social mobility.
We decide our own destiny
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
November 06 2011 17:49 GMT
#2911
On November 07 2011 00:39 IamBach wrote:
look at this. Corporations playing upon the movement.
http://jobsforthe99.com/
such bull IMO. I knew stuff like this was going to happen.

LOL that is fucking awesome! Only big oil could be so out of touch to think that a website like that would work.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
Pleiades
Profile Joined June 2010
United States472 Posts
November 06 2011 21:56 GMT
#2912
New taxes on the rich does not remove them from having control on the market. Since they have control, they will do something else to compensate for the new taxes, most likely raising prices. The only real solution without totally changing the market is more competition to lower prices. The industries have become monopolised somewhat, because there is no real competition anymore. Most people would rather buy a product from a large company that is more global, has more services, and more convenient, which only the large companies have the resources to do.

As for the government bailout, it was basically the same for my company's situation. It's main goal is to save the infrastructure of these big companies. If the large companies fell, you lose the infrastructure that goes with it. I agree that the bailout wasn't handled very well, because where was the government supervision of it? If these large companies fell, it would take years for a new one to replace them or an international company to buy or replace them.

The main reason why I am so confused about the "Occupy" protests around the US is, the people who are protesting are depending on their government to solve the problem. Don't they remember the disastrous bailout and economic surplus packages? In my opinion, both failed, which lead to the US into more debt. Bottom line, people should realize that the government has barely any control of the market so stop asking them to. If a government did have that much control, it would be more of a socialist state. When that does happen, the government has to be the one with the incentive to move the industry and not the people.
I love you sarge.... AHHHH
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
November 06 2011 22:25 GMT
#2913
On November 07 2011 02:43 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2011 01:16 HellRoxYa wrote:
On November 06 2011 06:18 Pleiades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, I'm a businessman, and I'm at the top 1% of wealth in my area. Currently, I'm most likely in the top 5-10% in overall America. I've come from asian-immigrant parents living here in "poverty" to living lavishly. I just took what my father said to me and continued on that path. He said to me, "To have a huge amount of money, you must take huge amounts of risks." At first I didn't get what he meant until I was grown up, due to the typical asian-parenting. Do good in school, go to a good college, get a good job. That's basically the safe way of living life. What I realized was, becoming rich requires taking opportunities and the risks involved. "Every choice and every opportunity you make in life is an investment in one form or another."

I see America as the land of opportunity, not as the land of guarantee. The top is called the top for a reason. The wealth distribution is competitive by nature, because we are all competing with each other to better our lives. Some people just want to be at the top more than others, and will do basically anything to get there. Know that to become more rich, someone else has to become more poor, whether from the top, middle, or bottom in terms of distribution and proportion. Since it is so competitive, do some people have what it takes to compete?

Most rich people know what the playing field is. Rich compete with the rich, trying to be better themselves from one another. They do not like newcomers, because that is just more competition they have already have to compete with. If you are trying to get to the top in the same field as people who are already established in it, then you must take opportunities from them to rise above them. That is why usually the rich band together to try to keep other competitors away and only compete with each other. Rich people usually seek any opportunity to gain an advantage no matter the risks involved. That is just how the mind-set is to the rich. No matter what the laws or regulations are, people who want it enough to be at the top will take opportunities and risks to be at the top.

That being said, most people don't want to take the risks associated with the opportunities to become rich. Note that as you become more wealthier, your financial risks become less and less. That's why the rich become more rich, and the poor become more poor. I'd bet most people just want to live a more safer lifestyle, however if you're mature enough to realize this, safety is never guaranteed in life. Because of the competitive nature of wealth distribution of a "free market," other people will take the opportunities you decided not to take to have a chance to move to the top. There are many missed opportunities people have in life, and someone else is going to take them, because they're willing to risk it. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

You don't have to buy and use goods and services from the rich. It's not like they're forcing you with a gun to your head. If you don't like it or the price, don't buy it. However, most people usually find it an annoyance and settle with buying it anyways. If you hate or dislike the rich so much, why not invest yourself to compete with them? Yes it's a risky venture trying to form a business against them, but you're giving no competition if you don't try at all.


I don't really get why Obama wants to tax the rich, as that does not solve the problem. The rich control the market, what do you think they're going to do if he taxed them... They're going to raise prices to compensate. The only way to really combat the rich is take that step and compete in their market.


So maybe we shouldn't tax the rich at all then if that's your argument. I'm just going to say this; My country seems to be doing very poorly with high taxes on the rich (and high taxes in general). We also don't have a higher social mobility than the US. /Sarcasm


That's not the argument.

The argument is that higher taxes will not solve any of the problems the OWSers complain about.

I know you guys in Sweden love to brag about how high your taxes are, but that rhetoric isn't the answer to the problems facing America.

Higher tax rates =/= higher social mobility.


The two are connected. We have state funded education (major factor contributing to this) meaning that anyone from any social class can attend university and get a degree in whatever. And he talked about social mobility being a staple point for America when it's just a widespread myth.
Murkinlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 22:30:59
November 06 2011 22:28 GMT
#2914
On November 07 2011 06:56 Pleiades wrote:
New taxes on the rich does not remove them from having control on the market. Since they have control, they will do something else to compensate for the new taxes, most likely raising prices. The only real solution without totally changing the market is more competition to lower prices. The industries have become monopolised somewhat, because there is no real competition anymore. Most people would rather buy a product from a large company that is more global, has more services, and more convenient, which only the large companies have the resources to do.

As for the government bailout, it was basically the same for my company's situation. It's main goal is to save the infrastructure of these big companies. If the large companies fell, you lose the infrastructure that goes with it. I agree that the bailout wasn't handled very well, because where was the government supervision of it? If these large companies fell, it would take years for a new one to replace them or an international company to buy or replace them.

The main reason why I am so confused about the "Occupy" protests around the US is, the people who are protesting are depending on their government to solve the problem. Don't they remember the disastrous bailout and economic surplus packages? In my opinion, both failed, which lead to the US into more debt. Bottom line, people should realize that the government has barely any control of the market so stop asking them to. If a government did have that much control, it would be more of a socialist state. When that does happen, the government has to be the one with the incentive to move the industry and not the people.


This is so wrong.

The consensus among economists is that the 700 billion economic package wasn't enough. In fact, without that injection we would be looking at unemployment rates nearing 14% instead of the 9% it is currently at. Only about 300-400 billion of the 700 billion has been put into effect, the rest is coming in the next few years.

From the 40s-70s our country as well as much of the world was run by keynesian economics. This is the theory that during an economic downturn, recovery should be put forth with strong fiscal policies. This means government spending and taxation as well as monetary policies that affect interest rates. Effective tax rates of the top bracket in the U.S. were around 60% in the '40s and have been declining ever since.

Enter Reagan, and the trickle-down theory (errr myth). This is the idea that by lowering taxes on the wealthy, they will reinvest that money into the economy, create jobs, and the wealth will "trickle-down" to the common man. This is just untrue and it is evident by looking through history, and is a huge reason as to why the U.S. is in the situation it is now.

The truth is, that world growth from 40s-70s was higher than growth from the 80s-now. Unemployment was also much lower. Keep in mind that in the 40s-70s the only asian nation that was on the rise was Japan and there was also no internet boom to create huge growth.

Golden age = '51-'73
Washington Consensus = '81-now

Metric Golden Age period Washington Consensus period
Average global growth 4.8% 3.2%
Average global inflation 3.9% 3.2%
Average Unemployment (US) 4.8% 6.1%
Average Unemployment (France) 1.2% 9.5%
Average Unemployment (Germany) 3.1% 7.5%
Average Unemployment (Great Britain) 1.6% 7.4%

This is a huge generalization, but it is true for the most part, during the washington consensus nearly all of the wealth that has been created has gone to the top 1%. So if trickle-down worked, wouldn't we be in the strongest economy we have ever seen? What is absolutely unjust is that all of this money, corporate money is ruling the political world. It is the reason why these devastating policies have not been overturned yet.

We are protesting because our democracy has been turned into a plutocracy and we want it back. Our government no longer governs for the people, they govern for the ones who pay them. This isn't a republican vs democrat issue and it isn't a anti-capitalist/anti-free market movement. We don't hate capitalism, we hate what has been done to it. Corruption and greed has destroyed our country and it needs to come to an end right now.
Ratchets, designer jackets
Tiamat
Profile Joined February 2003
United States498 Posts
November 06 2011 22:49 GMT
#2915
I am curious what ratio of the 99% protesters are in debt due to stupid purchases in their life. And yes this could even be supposedly "good debt" like student loans and houses.
Pleiades
Profile Joined June 2010
United States472 Posts
November 06 2011 22:56 GMT
#2916
Look, I'm not saying lower taxes in the Reagan-era on the rich did not create this problem. However, this is a different situation. The top 1% did not have that much of America's wealth back then. Now today since the top 1% has that much weath and control of the market, new taxes isn't really going to have the desired affect most people think it will have. What do you want the government to do really, strip away the assets of the rich because of barely any competition in the market? I dislike people comparing different economic eras to today's issues, because it's not going to have the same outcome due to being different situations.

As for the bailout, I said it failed, because there wasn't much oversight on how public money was used to help the public as best they could. Another huge issue with the bailout was that it only saved the big companies, and small businesses were shut down, therefore removing more competition. You can set new taxes on the rich, but that does not create competition, or at least it doesn't create it fast enough.
I love you sarge.... AHHHH
Murkinlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States366 Posts
November 06 2011 23:07 GMT
#2917
Taxing them more is the first step in attempting to restore some economic equality. It might be a slow process but it's a start. Too much wealth concentrated destroys the velocity of money which is one of the most important aspects of an economy. One of the most damaging things to an economy is excessive saving and it's become quite evident now more than ever before.

You say you're confused about the protests because people expect their government to help them? Do you listen to yourself? What's the point of a government?

The system is not working and that's a fact. Without these protests none of these issues would even be discussed right now.
Ratchets, designer jackets
vetinari
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia602 Posts
November 06 2011 23:19 GMT
#2918
Murkinlol, the reason why the "golden age" ended, was because the keynesian economics produced the stagflation of the 70's (along with oil shocks, etc). Basically, the price of trying to keep unemployment down, is increasing inflation. Since inflation is sticky, once the oil shocks reduced output, you get the unpleasant combination of high inflation + low growth.

Of course, the nature of growth in capitalist system, means that without much higher taxes on the wealthy, inequality between the rich/poor will increase, because the wealthy can invest a much higher proportion of their income than the poor.
Pleiades
Profile Joined June 2010
United States472 Posts
November 06 2011 23:29 GMT
#2919
On November 07 2011 08:07 Murkinlol wrote:
Taxing them more is the first step in attempting to restore some economic equality. It might be a slow process but it's a start. Too much wealth concentrated destroys the velocity of money which is one of the most important aspects of an economy. One of the most damaging things to an economy is excessive saving and it's become quite evident now more than ever before.

You say you're confused about the protests because people expect their government to help them? Do you listen to yourself? What's the point of a government?

The system is not working and that's a fact. Without these protests none of these issues would even be discussed right now.


What I mean is, the government can regulate but not control the market. The other thing I am saying is, yes taxes can help alleviate the problem, but it does not by itself solve it.
I love you sarge.... AHHHH
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 23:45:50
November 06 2011 23:36 GMT
#2920
I think Pleiades is right on the point that it is not enough in itself to tax "the rich".
I don't see progressive taxation as a goal in itself. The goal should be what the extra money are being used for. Progressive taxation is just a means for getting the government the money they need to equalize the playing field.

It is necessary to look at monopolisation and finding a way to deal with it too. At the same time giving a government with very strong ties to semi-monopolic corporations more money will probably make the problems worse. USA seriously needs to look at reforming the way elections are run. 174,000 $ as a rank and file in congress is ok, though it is well inside the top 10 % fractile in wages.

And then a comment about the Tea-party. Actually some of the problems being brought to light are the same: The government is not working as intended and the bail-out was a mistake.
That the solutions proposed by occupy is everything the Tea-party is not suggesting is another thing entirely...
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