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On March 13 2012 11:21 DoubleReed wrote:
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Edit: I agree that prejudice is a useful tool for things in people's lives. But basing it on non-choices like skin color, sex, or sexual orientation is impractical (and often incorrect) most of the time. Basing your prejudice on clothing or hygiene, for instance, is more practical. The problem with stereotypes is that they simply aren't very good a lot of the time.
I'm sorry, I don't want to extend this conversation much further, but this edit is pretty silly. Anyone can make fairly accurate generalizations based on a person's sex. Perhaps overall value judgement's are bad, but there are many things that are pretty simple that are so different that if you don't make the recognition you just look dumb (or worse). For instance, going around hugging men (as another man), even if you know them (like a high school reunion), is not recommended.
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On March 13 2012 08:08 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:58 Mohdoo wrote:On March 13 2012 07:54 xDaunt wrote:On March 13 2012 07:45 seppolevne wrote:On March 13 2012 07:24 xDaunt wrote:On March 13 2012 07:21 DoubleReed wrote:On March 13 2012 06:00 xDaunt wrote:On March 13 2012 05:54 liberal wrote:On March 13 2012 04:07 Jibba wrote:
Except it's white christian males who hold the vast majority of the power in the country. They're attacked because they're the norm, not because it's a social minority. Racists have rationalizations like this too. For example, they could change your words and say: "Except it's black males who commit the majority of violent crimes in the country. They are attacked because of their behavior, not because it's a social minority." See how rationalizing bigotry works? How about we just avoid attacking or stereotyping people altogether? There are good and bad in EVERY group. Personally, I have always thought that the Jews are a perfect of case study of how this works and how badly it can end. Huh? I thought we were talking about discrimination against the majority. How do Jews factor into this? I was just commenting on your post about rationalizing biggotry. There is no better example of people rationalizing biggotry than the reasons that people have come up with to legitimize discriminating against (and in some cases, exterminating) Jews. On March 05 2012 12:38 xDaunt wrote:
Stereotypes may be incorrect at times, but they are incredibly reliable. There's reason why people find them so offensive: they work.
On March 05 2012 09:36 xDaunt wrote:
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... There's a reason why stereotypes tend to work.
I <3 you. The proud face of the right! There's a difference between stereotypes and outright biggotry. Should stereotypes ever contribute to decision making? Absolutely yes. EDIT: Here's the dirty little secret about stereotypes that everyone seems to be missing: it's a crude form of statistical analysis. Rejecting the application of stereotypes in policy making is akin to rejecting the use of statistics in policy analysis. Want a good example of this stupidity in practice? Look no further than the TSA, where those bozos are directed to ignore stereotypes and statistics when selecting whom should be given a thorough pat down/inspection. Thus, we live in a world where granny has to have her diaper inspected because we want to be politically correct and avoid offending the groups from whom individuals are more likely to be terrorists.
Yea i think all white southerners who look "hick"-ish enough should be watched closely to make sure no black people are lynched.
I can't believe how much i disagree with you on everything lol
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See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense.
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On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense.
Stereotyping is a fallible and imperfect basis for decision making and judgement.
That doesn't mean we don't all do it, ALL THE TIME.
I'm a pretty moderate liberal. And I can smell a right wing nut job from a mile away 
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I'm a pretty moderate liberal. And I can smell a right wing nut job from a mile away
Rofl if you want to find someone who you really think is a nut - job, go listen to the Michael Savage show. You'll probably end up smashing your radio against the wall.
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I still wish Herman Cain was running he was hilarious. All of the candidates are hilariously stupid, but Herman is the funniest. haha I think ima go watch a debate re run now! :D
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On March 13 2012 11:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:21 DoubleReed wrote:
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Edit: I agree that prejudice is a useful tool for things in people's lives. But basing it on non-choices like skin color, sex, or sexual orientation is impractical (and often incorrect) most of the time. Basing your prejudice on clothing or hygiene, for instance, is more practical. The problem with stereotypes is that they simply aren't very good a lot of the time. I'm sorry, I don't want to extend this conversation much further, but this edit is pretty silly. Anyone can make fairly accurate generalizations based on a person's sex. Perhaps overall value judgement's are bad, but there are many things that are pretty simple that are so different that if you don't make the recognition you just look dumb (or worse). For instance, going around hugging men (as another man), even if you know them (like a high school reunion), is not recommended.
My sister's boyfriend hugs everyone, friends or foe almost.
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Is it just me, or is xDaunt's posts hilarious because he never actually seems to run his posts through an inner dialectic, so pretty much every exasperated insult or jab he puts out can be returned to him on the same plate.
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On March 13 2012 15:14 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:49 cLutZ wrote:On March 13 2012 11:21 DoubleReed wrote:
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Edit: I agree that prejudice is a useful tool for things in people's lives. But basing it on non-choices like skin color, sex, or sexual orientation is impractical (and often incorrect) most of the time. Basing your prejudice on clothing or hygiene, for instance, is more practical. The problem with stereotypes is that they simply aren't very good a lot of the time. I'm sorry, I don't want to extend this conversation much further, but this edit is pretty silly. Anyone can make fairly accurate generalizations based on a person's sex. Perhaps overall value judgement's are bad, but there are many things that are pretty simple that are so different that if you don't make the recognition you just look dumb (or worse). For instance, going around hugging men (as another man), even if you know them (like a high school reunion), is not recommended. My sister's boyfriend hugs everyone, friends or foe almost.
pffffffft ... typical Swedes.
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On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense.
I too find people's responses to stereotyping as being ass-backwards. You stereotype others and then turn around and call your neighbor a racist bigot homophobe for stereotyping. It's only okay to talk about it in the abstract. You gotta pretend you don't do it in daily life to survive.
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On March 13 2012 11:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:21 DoubleReed wrote:
[
Edit: I agree that prejudice is a useful tool for things in people's lives. But basing it on non-choices like skin color, sex, or sexual orientation is impractical (and often incorrect) most of the time. Basing your prejudice on clothing or hygiene, for instance, is more practical. The problem with stereotypes is that they simply aren't very good a lot of the time. I'm sorry, I don't want to extend this conversation much further, but this edit is pretty silly. Anyone can make fairly accurate generalizations based on a person's sex. Perhaps overall value judgement's are bad, but there are many things that are pretty simple that are so different that if you don't make the recognition you just look dumb (or worse). For instance, going around hugging men (as another man), even if you know them (like a high school reunion), is not recommended.
What? That's not a form of prejudice. I'm talking about making judgements about people's personalities and beliefs. What is silly about this?
On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense.
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense.
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The Government should absolutely not be using stereotypes in order to persecute folks. You can tell how fucked up society is when you read this thread and no one even notices or opines the fact that you are being treated as a criminal just for traveling. Instead the argument is over in what way shall we treat you as a criminal. Whatever happened to having evidence and due process in order for the Government to warrant searches/seizures/detainment? Land of the Lawless and Serfs.
As far as stereotypes in general. They're pretty similar to poisoning the well. In other words, half-truths, mixed with falsities in order to present a rigid caricature. I try to view everyone as an individual, and judge a person based on their actions. Of course everyone when first meeting someone uses limited information to quickly judge, but that's a personal action that violates no ones rights, whereas the Government using stereotypes in violation of our rights, is absolutely heinous.
As an aside, I am very pro-discrimination. I refuse to have anything to do with rude and obnoxious folks, racists, and I refuse to date obese women :p (I always find it funny those who say they never discriminate...such a lie.)
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United States22883 Posts
On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense.
Your argument for the TSA is indicative of the problem. Suicide bombers don't dress or look like conservative Muslims and the next wave are unlikely to even be Arabic.
Not to mention TSA is still hugely ineffective to begin with. Our safety is mostly due to the fact that we're simply not at much risk of attack to begin with, contrary to society's perception.
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On March 13 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense.
I already reconciled this issue in a post above. I stated that stereotyping is merely a tool akin to statistical analysis. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it. You, on other hand, are starting with the presumption that stereotyping is always wrong, ie that stereotyping is bigotry and discrimination. Yet, you have not provided any argument for why this incredibly broad-based presumption holds true. In fact, aren't you stereotyping merely by holding that presumption?
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On March 13 2012 21:44 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense. Your argument for the TSA is indicative of the problem. Suicide bombers don't dress or look like conservative Muslims and the next wave are unlikely to even be Arabic. Not to mention TSA is still hugely ineffective to begin with. Our safety is mostly due to the fact that we're simply not at much risk of attack to begin with, contrary to society's perception.
Whoa, I actually agree with Jibba on something. Almost never
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On March 13 2012 21:44 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:30 xDaunt wrote:
See, I find people's responses this topic of stereotyping to be interesting because they are so demonstrative of how ass-backwards our society has become in its pursuit of the politically correct. Stereotyping has become so demonized that it's now a dirty word. So much for common sense. Your argument for the TSA is indicative of the problem. Suicide bombers don't dress or look like conservative Muslims and the next wave are unlikely to even be Arabic. Not to mention TSA is still hugely ineffective to begin with. Our safety is mostly due to the fact that we're simply not at much risk of attack to begin with, contrary to society's perception.
I'm glad that you brought this up. Go read about the Israeli airport security system, which is the best in the world. It's built upon stereotyping and *GASP* racial profiling, and I'm guessing that it processes a far larger percentage of Muslim passengers than the TSA does.
Also, on a side note, I like how you automatically mentioned "Muslims" -- without any prompt from me -- in your response to my post about how TSA should implement stereotyping. "I can sense the struggle in you -- the conflict!" There may be hope for you yet.
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On March 13 2012 22:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense. I already reconciled this issue in a post above. I stated that stereotyping is merely a tool akin to statistical analysis. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it. You, on other hand, are starting with the presumption that stereotyping is always wrong, ie that stereotyping is bigotry and discrimination. Yet, you have not provided any argument for why this incredibly broad-based presumption holds true. In fact, aren't you stereotyping merely by holding that presumption?
Considering all the people on this forum who attempt to use "statistical analysis" and end up looking like fools as they are not statisticians, I highly doubt equating stereotyping as statistical analysis will make it sound any better when it is being used by people lacking information out in the world.
Even worse when it's used by people who not only lack information, but refuse to accept or seek correct information.
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On March 13 2012 22:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense. I already reconciled this issue in a post above. I stated that stereotyping is merely a tool akin to statistical analysis. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it. You, on other hand, are starting with the presumption that stereotyping is always wrong, ie that stereotyping is bigotry and discrimination. Yet, you have not provided any argument for why this incredibly broad-based presumption holds true. In fact, aren't you stereotyping merely by holding that presumption?
You said bigotry is a policy of using stereotypes and bigotry is bad. Then you say we should use stereotypes in our policy and that is ok. That is literally what you said. You have yet to reconcile that.
How is that stereotyping? Look, all stereotyping is a certain kind of prejudice. That certain kind isn't very good. Stereotyping is not the same as statistical analysis at all. It relies heavily on preconceived notions and then people rationalize exceptions to maintain those incorrect notions. It flies in the face of all statistical reasoning, because the statistics must updated after every iteration (a more complicated version of Bayes Theorem essentially), and stereotypes are not constantly updated like that.
So if by "stereotyping" you mean Bayesian prejudice then fine. Of course you are the only English speaker who would ever say that is "stereotyping," and that's not what you mean or anyone means.
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On March 13 2012 22:42 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 22:21 xDaunt wrote:On March 13 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense. I already reconciled this issue in a post above. I stated that stereotyping is merely a tool akin to statistical analysis. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it. You, on other hand, are starting with the presumption that stereotyping is always wrong, ie that stereotyping is bigotry and discrimination. Yet, you have not provided any argument for why this incredibly broad-based presumption holds true. In fact, aren't you stereotyping merely by holding that presumption? You said bigotry is a policy of using stereotypes and bigotry is bad. Then you say we should use stereotypes in our policy and that is ok. That is literally what you said. You have yet to reconcile that.
I only said that stereotyping is a tool and that bigotry is a policy. I did not say that using stereotypes in making policy is necessarily bigotry.
EDIT: And just to clarify, stereotyping most certainly can lead to bigotry if abused, which is why the politically correct have deemed stereotyping to be taboo.
How is that stereotyping? Look, all stereotyping is a certain kind of prejudice. That certain kind isn't very good. Stereotyping is not the same as statistical analysis at all. It relies heavily on preconceived notions and then people rationalize exceptions to maintain those incorrect notions. It flies in the face of all statistical reasoning, because the statistics must updated after every iteration (a more complicated version of Bayes Theorem essentially), and stereotypes are not constantly updated like that.
This all goes back to my original point about stereotyping from several pages ago: good stereotypes are based in truth. Stereotypes don't work if they are simply untrue.
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On March 13 2012 22:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 22:42 DoubleReed wrote:On March 13 2012 22:21 xDaunt wrote:On March 13 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:
lol, and I like how you still haven't reconciled the fact that your claims are logically inconsistent and blatantly hypocritical. Whining about how we're ass-backwards is genuinely adorable.
Edit: And don't get me started on "common sense." Seriously, how is this still used in political discussions? Intuition sucks to figure things out about the real world. Everyone knows the world has a ton of counter-intuitive notions yet people still act as "common sense" is still worthwhile and useful. "Common sense" is also known as "guessing." Fuck common sense. I already reconciled this issue in a post above. I stated that stereotyping is merely a tool akin to statistical analysis. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it. You, on other hand, are starting with the presumption that stereotyping is always wrong, ie that stereotyping is bigotry and discrimination. Yet, you have not provided any argument for why this incredibly broad-based presumption holds true. In fact, aren't you stereotyping merely by holding that presumption? You said bigotry is a policy of using stereotypes and bigotry is bad. Then you say we should use stereotypes in our policy and that is ok. That is literally what you said. You have yet to reconcile that. I only said that stereotyping is a tool and that bigotry is a policy. I did not say that using stereotypes in making policy is necessarily bigotry. EDIT: And just to clarify, stereotyping most certainly can lead to bigotry if abused, which is why the politically correct have deemed stereotyping to be taboo. Show nested quote +How is that stereotyping? Look, all stereotyping is a certain kind of prejudice. That certain kind isn't very good. Stereotyping is not the same as statistical analysis at all. It relies heavily on preconceived notions and then people rationalize exceptions to maintain those incorrect notions. It flies in the face of all statistical reasoning, because the statistics must updated after every iteration (a more complicated version of Bayes Theorem essentially), and stereotypes are not constantly updated like that. This all goes back to my original point about stereotyping from several pages ago: good stereotypes are based in truth. Stereotypes don't work if they are simply untrue.
What is this...I don't even know. Instead of due process and evidence, ergo, protections of individual liberty, we should throw that all out and give to the Government the power to detain, arrest, search, and seize based on stereotypes. Machiavellian anyone?
Especially delusional is the fact that one takes the view that the State (or if you prefer the Government) is a neutral entity, subject to no self-interest, or is beyond base humanity. As if it to be employed by angels for benevolent purpose. In reality, you hand to the State your liberties, and you bind yourselves in chains, for what...an illusion of security? In the land of Give me Death or Give me Liberty, we seem to be quite short on those stout enough to defend our natural liberties against the techniques of tyranny employed since time immemoriable.
There is no want or need for the TSA. There is no want or need to run an Empire. We modeled ourselves pretty heavily off the Swiss...wonder why the folks that don't bother anyone else aren't always attacked!
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EPT
