On February 16 2012 09:49 Signet wrote: In American political discourse, "socialism" means any disagreement with Republican policy. School vouchers are capitalist, but health insurance vouchers are socialist. Spending hundreds of billions on social security is socialist, spending hundreds on billions on warfare is capitalist. Subsidizing green energy companies is socialist, subsidizing oil companies is capitalist. Now you understand?
Apparently we're now labeling policies on non-economic issues as "socialist," which makes zero sense, but that's really no different than the inaccurate and highly selective use of the term in the fist place.
You forgot to mention that the "green energy" companies that were subsidized and supported by the Obama administration collapsed and went bankrupt, yet Obama continued to throw the tax dollars of hard-working Americans at Solyndra and others.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama:
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
On February 16 2012 09:49 Signet wrote: In American political discourse, "socialism" means any disagreement with Republican policy. School vouchers are capitalist, but health insurance vouchers are socialist. Spending hundreds of billions on social security is socialist, spending hundreds on billions on warfare is capitalist. Subsidizing green energy companies is socialist, subsidizing oil companies is capitalist. Now you understand?
Apparently we're now labeling policies on non-economic issues as "socialist," which makes zero sense, but that's really no different than the inaccurate and highly selective use of the term in the fist place.
You forgot to mention that the "green energy" companies that were subsidized and supported by the Obama administration collapsed and went bankrupt, yet Obama continued to throw the tax dollars of hard-working Americans at Solyndra and others.
Still doesn't make it a "socialist" policy though.
Also, I love how you pick and choose exactly what arguements to respond to. Once someone makes a point that you have no way to disprove/argue against you jump onto the next thing
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
Europe was a victim of rampant, unregulated capitalism. Not socialism. If there had been more governmental control on banks and better regulation Europe would have insignificant debt.
The ring wing tells people how to live their lives more than the left ever has. You can only marry this person. You are not allowed control of your body. You must go to this war. This is the religion you should practice, if you don't you will be ostracised. You cannot have contraceptives. These drugs that you put in your own body are illegal, and you should be punished ridiculously badly for it. If you commit a crime, you must be punished in a magnitude far beyond that of the crime committed, so you can come out of prison worse than you went in and commit more crimes - but that's OK as long as we can joke about convicts being raped by other convicts.
The anti-intellectualism in America is mainly from the republican side as well, even when in the modern age intelligence as a resource is worth more than anything else. It's like you want to watch your country burn.
The right wing is also seriously Orwellian - all of the recent SOPA/PIPA/Protect children from internet pornographers Act's would have censored the hell out of the internet and give ridiculous control to big corporations and big government. And yeah, Obama is right wing too (with NDAA). You guys don't have a left wing.
After all that you think the "socialists" are the ones controlling people. It's pathetic how easily so many of you Americans have been manipulated by your political parties and media, into becoming so polarised that one side is communist and one side is fascist. Everyone is Stalin and Hitler, or "worse than Stalin/Hitler". It's like hearing children talk about things that are far beyond them so they blow them out of all proportion. There are massive fucking shades of grey, okay? Dumbasses.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
On February 16 2012 09:49 Signet wrote: In American political discourse, "socialism" means any disagreement with Republican policy. School vouchers are capitalist, but health insurance vouchers are socialist. Spending hundreds of billions on social security is socialist, spending hundreds on billions on warfare is capitalist. Subsidizing green energy companies is socialist, subsidizing oil companies is capitalist. Now you understand?
Apparently we're now labeling policies on non-economic issues as "socialist," which makes zero sense, but that's really no different than the inaccurate and highly selective use of the term in the fist place.
You forgot to mention that the "green energy" companies that were subsidized and supported by the Obama administration collapsed and went bankrupt, yet Obama continued to throw the tax dollars of hard-working Americans at Solyndra and others.
I didn't "forget;" it's irrelevant to the point I was making. (hint: I wasn't talking about any individual's specific policies)
My point is that the use of "socialism" as a pejorative in political discourse is neither meaningful nor logically consistent.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
"A little" - try an embarrassingly huge exaggeration. And no, you can't. Not without making stuff up.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
if anything we're headed to a new age of oligarchy with the republicans leading the way and obama following them close behind.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
Okay. Do you feel that Europeans might legitimately be pissed off if you make the argument that something will cause everything to go to shit like it has done in Europe when you're using a Europe which "hasn't happened (yet)" to justify the argument? It's normal to wait for things to fail before you use them as evidence of failure, not doing so is pretty impolite.
On February 16 2012 09:26 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize Harding's administration was taking massive bribes and commiting huge acts of fraud? Apparentely that's not that bad for you though
How is that any different from Obama?
Proof, for one.
So many people throwing the word "socialist" around nowadays without knowing anything about what it means. Kind of sad really.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
Europe was a victim of rampant, unregulated capitalism. Not socialism. If there had been more governmental control on banks and better regulation Europe would have insignificant debt.
The ring wing tells people how to live their lives more than the left ever has. You can only marry this person. You are not allowed control of your body. You must go to this war. This is the religion you should practice, if you don't you will be ostracised. You cannot have contraceptives. These drugs that you put in your own body are illegal, and you should be punished ridiculously badly for it. If you commit a crime, you must be punished in a magnitude far beyond that of the crime committed, so you can come out of prison worse than you went in and commit more crimes - but that's OK as long as we can joke about convicts being raped by other convicts.
The anti-intellectualism in America is mainly from the republican side as well, even when in the modern age intelligence as a resource is worth more than anything else. It's like you want to watch your country burn.
The right wing is also seriously Orwellian - all of the recent SOPA/PIPA/Protect children from internet pornographers Act's would have censored the hell out of the internet and give ridiculous control to big corporations and big government. And yeah, Obama is right wing too (with NDAA). You guys don't have a left wing.
After all that you think the "socialists" are the ones controlling people. It's pathetic how easily so many of you Americans have been manipulated by your political parties and media, into becoming so polarised that one side is communist and one side is fascist. Everyone is Stalin and Hitler, or "worse than Stalin/Hitler". It's like hearing children talk about things that are far beyond them so they blow them out of all proportion. There are massive fucking shades of grey, okay? Dumbasses.
That's a rather narrow view of the world, no offense. It's true that the religious right can be rather authoritarian, especially when it comes to abortion and homosexuality, but so can the left. There is no "left-wing" and "right-wing" there are all different kind of shades of gray. There are SOME non-authoritarian lefties and there are SOME authoritarian right-wingers, but the extremes don't make the entire group. There's more than two sides to most issues and more than two ways to run a government.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
No, no you can not... There is absolutely no freaking way that will happen. Large of europe is actually moving to the right, so how you can argue with a straigh face we are heading towards some extreem form of communism is beyond me. It has also little to do with socialism. Please explain in detail where you think Europe is heading and how this will make a neurosurgeon get payed as much as a fast food employee.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
I don't think many people would disagree that it's much easier to expand the power and control of a government than it is to reduce it, and there are countless reasons for that. People in government positions always want larger budgets, they always spend what they're given and desire more, when a new government job is made the person will fight to keep it, when a citizen receives a benefit they will strive to maintain it. Government doesn't have the profit motive, they don't have the incentive to cut costs, to reduce pay, to downsize, because there is no competition. Imagine walmart being able to take the customers money by force, why would they cut prices?
Part of the problem is that incentives are concentrated in a minority and diluted in a majority. Let me offer an example: Suppose two opposite policies: the left handed people must subsidize the right handed people, or the right handed people must subsidize the left handed. If you have 1 person subsidizing 10, then he will be paying $10 and the 10 will only be receiving $1. In other words, the one person has a much larger incentive to fight the proposal than the 10 who are on the receiving end. If the situation is reversed, then the 1 person is receiving a significant share, and so has a large incentive to support or expand the benefit, while the other ten are only out $1 and so won't have as much concern to fight it.
That's how it works in the real world. Everyone wants to cut spending, but the moment you try and lay down the specifics of who gets cut, they start fighting and lobbying and advertising to shut it down. Meanwhile the majority do not have the motivation to see the battle through, because it isn't their job or income at stake, it's just some small taxes they don't even explicitly see.
This is just one example of why it's much easier to expand government authority than to reduce. Governments everywhere are constantly increasing in scope and authority, the US is just much slower than the rest because their people are much more adamant about maintaining certain liberties and restraining government. For some that's a running joke, but I think that is a good thing, because at some point the government will simply overstep it's bounds; it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And once the government has too much power, good luck taking it back. History has shown that a people most often have to resort to bloody revolution to take back power, except that's not even a possibility anymore because the citizenry are unarmed and weak.
This isn't an issue of left vs. right, or republican vs. democrat. They are both guilty. When someone blames democrats for something, it does no one any good to say "well republicans are expanding military power!" Yes, they are, and they are wrong too. We need to stop seeing things in this stupid left/right paradigm and thinking that's who we need to fight. It's about the people, not the party. Republicans are wrong for expanding military power, reducing civil liberties, and trying to enforce religious morality on people. Democrats are wrong for unnecessary intrusions on voluntary transactions of all kinds, damaging education, fostering dependency, and stoking class/racial tensions for profit. Neither party is on the side of the people.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
No, no you can not... There is absolutely no freaking way that will happen. Large of europe is actually moving to the right, so how you can argue with a straigh face we are heading towards some extreem form of communism is beyond me. It has also little to do with socialism. Please explain in detail where you think Europe is heading and how this will make a neurosurgeon get payed as much as a fast food employee.
With reference to how Thatcher broke the unions and the post Thatcherite capitalist consensus with Labour's social justice which has achieved a cross party consensus and led to Blair's abandonment of Article 4 of the Labour constitution. Look it up.
On February 16 2012 09:59 KwarK wrote: Okay. Do you feel that Europeans might legitimately be pissed off if you make the argument that something will cause everything to go to shit like it has done in Europe when you're using a Europe which "hasn't happened (yet)" to justify the argument? It's normal to wait for things to fail before you use them as evidence of failure, not doing so is pretty impolite.
Yes, of course Europeans have every right to be legitimately pissed off, especially when I brought up the communist thing. However there's no reason they should get upset over me criticizing the European Union. Especially since many of the members here are from the United Kingdom, which is one of the top three most anti-EU countries in the EU. There is quite a bit of evidence to support that the European Union is a failure and that the Europroject is falling apart at the seams.
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
Because socialism, like fascism, can almost look like a good thing at first, with a massive centralized government controlling everything, and the homeless being taken care of. So people think, oh this is nice, I can just sit and do nothing all day and still get payed. Or even if they do work, they'll work some 5 hour shift at a fast food restaurant and get paid as much as a neurosurgeon. Eventually though people realize that the government is not only controlling their lives economically, but is beginning to tell them how to live their lives. The socialists in charge start telling people to hand in their guns, that tobacco is illegal, and that spanking your kid is child abuse. Then the system starts to collapse, the tax revenue from the people who do work hard isn't enough to cover the burden by those who are a burden on the system. Then we see a recession and everything starts to fall apart, which is what we're seeing in Europe.
This is simply objectively wrong. Europe is still governed by free market principles. Neurosurgeons are paid orders of magnitude more than fast food workers. We're not arguing economic/political theory here, what you're saying is objectively not true. Is that a concept you can understand?
You're right, I did exaggerate a little as that hasn't happened (yet) in Europe. Though you can argue that this is the road Europe and Obama are going down.
It´s really annoying arguing with fatalists. In your little made up example there are so many flaws, it´s mind boggling, little grains of truth but so much made up shit. That´s Glenn Beck style, you should check him out(though I doubt you haven´t already), might be a long lasting friendship. Europe as a whole has got problems, some countres do just fine, others got big problems. The simple matter of fact is that there is no(economic or even socioecenomic) entitiy called Europe. You spew and repeat talking points of Right Wing politicians who fear that Obama could ruin their 2012 victory soup for presidency - and they are rightfully afraid with their lineup of flawed candidates. America as an entity got at least as many problems as "Europe", or at least some parts of it. And all that without going before (which has not happened yet cuz you exaggerated a bit) the Obama road to "worker´s of the world - unite". So please think again.
A couple people brought up that they don't believe that Obama is a socialist. To those people I would like you to take a look at Obama (and the Democratic Party in general), look at their policies and then take a look at the "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe and their policies. You will see that there is little, if any, difference between the US Democratic Party and the socialist parties of Europe, such as the Labour Party (UK).
Here's a video I posted several pages ago in this thread, it's a speech from a British MEP, in which he details just how similar Obama/Democrats are to the socialists in Europe:
On February 16 2012 09:02 Yongwang wrote: Great video here, too bad there is no real candidate to get behind in this election to stop Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWR8qXJXnJE
the whole "take america back" thing is hilarious. Obama has been in office for 4 years -_-
ROFL @ this election deciding whether america lives or dies.
It pretty much does decide if America lives or dies. Will we follow the failed policies of Obama and the Europeans? Or will we save America from the socialists and collectivists.
You act like things are ever permanent. Give me a break.
If Obama and congress enacted some laws that you don't like, guess what, they can be repealed.
Nothing is permanent. You know who is really scary? Rick Santorum.
Santorum is scary, but Obama is infinitely scarier. Also once you go down the socialist path, it's hard to get off of it without a massive rise in nationalism and/or a revolution. Especially once the bureaucrats start to control everything like in Europe.
Infinitely? Really? And please give a detailed explanation why getting off socialism is much if any harder than the opposite.
I don't think many people would disagree that it's much easier to expand the power and control of a government than it is to reduce it, and there are countless reasons for that. People in government positions always want larger budgets, they always spend what their given and desire more, when a new government job is made the person will fight to keep it, when a citizen receives a benefit they will strive to maintain it. Government doesn't have the profit motive, they don't have the incentive to cut costs, to reduce pay, to downsize, because there is no competition. Imagine walmart being able to take the customers money by force, why would they cut prices?
Part of the problem is that incentives are concentrated in a minority and diluted in a majority. Let me offer an example: Suppose two opposite policies: the left handed people must subsidize the right handed people, or the right handed people must subsidize the left handed. If you have 1 person subsidizing 10, then he will be paying $10 and the 10 will only be receiving $1. In other words, the one person has a much larger incentive to fight the proposal than the 10 who are on the receiving end. If the situation is reversed, then the 1 person is receiving a significant share, and so has a large incentive to support or expand the benefit, while the other ten are only out $1 and so won't have as much concern to fight it.
That's how it works in the real world. Everyone wants to cut spending, but the moment you try and lay down the specifics of who gets cut, they start fighting and lobbying and advertising to shut it down. Meanwhile the majority do not have the motivation to see the battle through, because it isn't their job or income at stake, it's just some small taxes they don't even explicitly see.
This is just one example of why it's much easier to expand government authority than to reduce. Governments everywhere are constantly increasing in scope and authority, the US is just much slower than the rest because their people are much more adamant about maintaining certain liberties and restraining government. For some that's a running joke, but I think that is a good thing, because at some point the government will simply overstep it's bounds; it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And once the government has too much power, good luck taking it back. History has shown that a people most often have to resort to bloody revolution to take back power, except that's not even a possibility anymore because the citizenry are unarmed and weak.
That was brilliantly said, thank you for that interesting commentary, good sir.
On February 16 2012 10:16 Yongwang wrote: A couple people brought up that they don't believe that Obama is a socialist. To those people I would like you to take a look at Obama (and the Democratic Party in general), look at their policies and then take a look at the "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe and their policies. You will see that there is little, if any, difference between the US Democratic Party and the socialist parties of Europe, such as the Labour Party (UK).
Here's a video I posted several pages ago in this thread, it's a speech from a British MEP, in which he details just how similar Obama/Democrats are to the socialists in Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6doBZ_PPJCY
You literally have no idea what you are talking about and I don't know why Kwark is taking the time to respond to such ignorance. You're equating apples (Obama llama) and oranges (real socialism). I'm a conservative, or at least I thought I was, but the public discourse from the right in this country is so ignorant.
EPT
