The Chinese media has reported on an extraordinary account of a mother bear saving her cub from a life of torture by strangling it and then killing itself.
The bears were kept in a farm located in a remote area in the North-West of China. The bears on the farm had their gall bladders milked daily for 'bear bile,' which is used as a remedy in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM).
It was reported that the bears are kept in tiny cages known as 'crush cages', as the bears have no room to manoeuvre and are literally crushed.
The bile is harvested by making a permanent hole or fistula in the bears' abdomen and gall bladder.
As the hole is never closed, the animals are suspect to various infections and diseases including tumours, cancers and death from peritonitis.
The bears are fitted with an iron vest, as they often try to kill themselves by hitting their stomach as they are unable to bear the pain.
A person who was on the farm in place of a friend witnessed the procedures and told Reminbao.com that they were inhumane.
The witness also claimed that a mother bear broke out its cage when it heard its cub howl in fear before a worker punctured its stomach to milk the bile.
The workers ran away in fear when they saw the mother bear rushing to its cub's side.
Unable to free the cub from its restraints, the mother hugged the cub and eventually strangled it.
It then dropped the cub and ran head-first into a wall, killing itself.
Many TCM practitioners have denounced the use of bear bile in their treatment as there are cheaper herbs and synthetics that can be used in its place.
Bear bile is traditionally used to remove 'heat' from the body as well as treat high fever, liver ailments and sore eyes.
Pretty fucked up stuff. What an amazing bear, don't you agree?
Doesn't that mean they have some form of conscious to know that if they kept it up then they'd be free of pain? As well as knowing that they only way to save her cub was to kill it (therefore being free of pain) therefore having some knowledge of what death is?
They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Well the fairness of that statement is arguable - but anyways I don't think the levels of cruelty are the same. (not that I think kfc's chickens are treated humanely)
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
I never heard of animals committing a suicide.. Thinking about the circumstances that caused the mother bear to do such actions creates all the hatred toward those ignorant people.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
how else are these Chinese people going to get the "heat" out of their bodies?
In all seriousness, this is despicable and it just reminds me of how people in the last century nearly made several species extinct by massive over-hunting in search of pelts, furs, tusks, etc.
Really pathetic and the people at this facility should be ashamed.
Seems every day spent on the internet eventually leads to some fucked up shit. Also the intelligence of bears is largely unexplored but there is some pretty interesting stories out there that point to them being much more cognitive than people think.
God damn... what an amazing, yet sad story. I'm feeling what micronesia and Mastermind are feeling. I'm awestruck at the bear's incredible behaviour, and incredibly disappointed (though not surprised) by the people's behaviour.
Ugh, I wish I hadn't read this. Its so much nicer to live in ignorance of animal cruelty - particularly if the animals appear to be smart and have a conscious...
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
Do they? While I am not surprised, I believe the primary reason for debeaking is that they hurt the other chickens.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
i am actually a vegetarian and dont eat any kind of meat whatsoever. I have read and seen similar stories similar stories of pigs and veal being kept in these crush cages so that they can get tender and fat for their meat and sometimes these animals get all bloody and die just trying to bite out of the steel cages
Animals have intelligence beyond what we could imagine. Very sad story to hear.
However, we'd be hypocrites to criticize this in a non-vegan world. Where would one draw the line between human and inhumane treatment of animals? Or between too unintelligent and intelligent to use as product?
This type of news account often antagonizes the East for essentially the same practices as the West. Whether it's a bear, cow, or rabbit, who are we to judge which animal is too sacred or too intelligent to kill.
If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
On August 12 2011 15:02 SmOkeYNaGaTa wrote: Animals have intelligence beyond what we could imagine. Very sad story to hear.
However, we'd be hypocrites to criticize this in a non-vegan world. Where would one draw the line between human and inhumane treatment of animals? Or between too unintelligent and intelligent to use as product?
This type of news account often antagonizes the East for essentially the same practices as the West. Whether it's a bear, cow, or rabbit, who are we to judge which animal is too sacred or too intelligent to kill.
Maybe you missed the part where it was being tortured.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other suggested medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to its uneducated "practitioners".
On August 12 2011 15:02 SmOkeYNaGaTa wrote: Animals have intelligence beyond what we could imagine. Very sad story to hear.
However, we'd be hypocrites to criticize this in a non-vegan world. Where would one draw the line between human and inhumane treatment of animals? Or between too unintelligent and intelligent to use as product?
This type of news account often antagonizes the East for essentially the same practices as the West. Whether it's a bear, cow, or rabbit, who are we to judge which animal is too sacred or too intelligent to kill.
Maybe you missed the part where it was being tortured.
Only if we turn a blind eye to the torture of animals worldwide.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
So that people understand, it is China we are talking about. They treat their own citizens just as cruel so there is not really strange they treat the animals the same way.
This is sad. I really don't know how I feel about animal rights and whatever, but this definitely doesn't seem right to me.
On a different note, this is actually fascinating if it's true and it really was suicide as opposed to just a fit of rage. I had no idea animals could think in that way.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
Do they? While I am not surprised, I believe the primary reason for debeaking is that they hurt the other chickens.
group suicide cult?
Before we get started on the morality of eating animals, I'd just like to say this:
There is no way around it... eating animals is immoral by most accounts. However, there is no effective alternative (no the entire world can't turn into vegetarians). Furthermore, some of the practices these slaughterhouses take are disgusting. I wish that companies would improve conditions at least humanity figures out how to synthesize meat. But this is very unlikely because it will make food more expensive and then we haven't done anything.
On August 12 2011 15:04 Hypemeup wrote: She killed herself running into a wall headfirst? I realise they are heavy and all but dont bears have super thick skulls?
i'm guessing she broke her own neck rather than breaking her own skull.
Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
On August 12 2011 15:02 SmOkeYNaGaTa wrote: Animals have intelligence beyond what we could imagine. Very sad story to hear.
However, we'd be hypocrites to criticize this in a non-vegan world. Where would one draw the line between human and inhumane treatment of animals? Or between too unintelligent and intelligent to use as product?
This type of news account often antagonizes the East for essentially the same practices as the West. Whether it's a bear, cow, or rabbit, who are we to judge which animal is too sacred or too intelligent to kill.
Maybe you missed the part where it was being tortured.
Only if we turn a blind eye to the torture of animals worldwide.
...Which we DON'T. Killing animals for meat is fine, but you don't have to fucking torture them and that is looked down upon by most people.
This is really terrible.. its absolutely horrible what they do to those poor bears :/
Nothing against China in general - have been there for a few months etc, but they allow some really outdated and horrible practices. (Also think eating monkey brains...)
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
Just ask the workers who were getting ready to gut a cub. When momma broke out, did they know they had done something wrong? I bet they got the fuck away from the cub quick.
I've been in a few scarier situations, and you always wonder how and why. That said animal cruelty is old hat. Don't much care, and i kinda enjoy the food. However the deeper sociological meanings inherent in these animal behaviors are interesting.
did she kill the baby? was it suicide or botched escape attempt? There are some questions here. Plus its from freaking china. Those animals were asking for it, being near china and all. Who knows. It seems suspect but could confirm what i've always suspected.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Well its probably mainly placebo effect tbh... i've had about 15 or so acupuncture sessions and i'm still pretty on the fence about that. If it does something its definitely not what they claim (cure all).
A lot of people try it to see if it helps with whatever random ailment.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Like the first guy, I normally agree with you, but this thread is about these bears. This is only going to derail the thread more.
Oh boy, this thread is going to get 200+ replies just because it says "China" in the OP. This kind of animal cruelty happens everywhere in the world and is a common practice in the west as well.
I am not defending this practice, but to antagonize the east while staying ignorant towards our own faults is just hypocritical.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Just because it's old doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.
In western cultural, specially in the nordic We used a method called Bloodletting.
Basically the theory was that when someone got ill it was in their blood. (which partially was true) so the proper treatment would be to remove the "bad" blood, this was done by tapping the patients of blood and this way make them all good again. The effect of this (of course) on an ill patient was that he suffered sever blood loss and the infection was still left in his body and the patient died.
This shit was going on for over 2.000 years. This alternative medicin, some of it, might not be as lethal as bloodletting but it sure as hell still is just as fucked up as bloodletting was and it being "old" doesn't automatically make it work.
1. Very sad story 2. It is terrible that this was ever practiced 3. I kind of doubt the legitimacy of this story. I mean how in the hell can a bear be able to understand the concept of putting its cub out of its misery.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
I think it's stupid to suggest that thousands of years of history behind flat-earthism... Or traditional medicine has anything to offer, if it can't pass double-blind clinicial trials.
It's hard to avoid restaurants that use animal cruelty when all your fat retarded friends want to eat at Taco Bell and KFC all the time. Makes me happy knowing that most of my friends understand what decent food tastes like.
I would like to respectfully request that a mod close this thread because it's taken a sharp nose dive after the first page. Posters are posting off topic and are ending up bashing TCM, China and the Chinese culture. As for the article in the OP, I don't agree with what the people on the bear farm are doing. I think the method of extracting and farming the bear bile is very wrong and cruel. I highly doubt that anything can actually be done to change this if this method of obtaining bear bile is legal in China simply because TCM is widely practiced in one form or another in China and other asian countries. I don't think that there is any room for productive discussion to happen with this topic.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other suggested medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to its uneducated "practitioners".
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
Goes for you too, don't come into these threads and act like so high and mighty. There is a difference between using humane and non humane methods when dealing with animals/livestock.
Another article (link) to those who are truly knows what animal cruelty is about.
Extract from article: Bear bile farming is still practised in Asia where the bears are kept in small cages and bile is extracted for traditional medicine. There are a few methods used for bile extraction. The most recent technique is called ‘free dripping’. It involves making a permanent hole or fistula into the bears’ abdomen and gall bladder.
During bile milking, a metal tube will be used to poke through the hole to reach the gall bladder and break the membrane, so that the bile is released. This process is often done without anaesthetic and sterilization
>> No anaesthetic and sterilization to save costs
The wound from the bile extraction was never closed. So, the wound never recovered. After months and years of this physical torture, many of these bears suffer from infections, diseases, tumour, cancer growth and death from peritonitis (inflammation of the peritoneum, the serous membrane, that lines part of the abdominal cavity and viscera).
>> Imagine the pain the bear has to go through 24/7 with an open wound and a pipe through the hole in stomach.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Like the first guy, I normally agree with you, but this thread is about these bears. This is only going to derail the thread more.
lol, what is there to discuss. clearly this is fucked up, and anyone that disagrees is going to face mass dissent.
On August 12 2011 15:13 Oxymoron wrote: Oh boy, this thread is going to get 200+ replies just because it says "China" in the OP. This kind of animal cruelty happens everywhere in the world and is a common practice in the west as well.
I am not defending this practice, but to antagonize the east while staying ignorant towards our own faults is just hypocritical.
Oh ok lets just stand up for backwards ass practices and a country that continues to allow all sorts of bullshit from things like this issue to unregulated industrial practices and so on.
I should just look at all this and say, gosh isn't diversity amazing! We can all do things differently!
Unfortunately I still live on Earth and I'm not retarded so I can't say that.
what's more cruel is the need to milk bears for their bile to have foreign objects sucking the life force out of you would like some one to poke in your stomach and than drain out the secretion out of it ? Do you know painful it is although it is an animal ? it's still a living things . This only make me rage how can they allow such activity to go on despite it's bullshit medicinal value . I disagree on this bile farming bear business WWF should go and stop these cruelty .
I know i probably can't do a thing here because lots of "CHINESE people" believe in all these medicinal values tiger tooth,rhino's horn blended into powder form for medical purpose to help in human health but than what are we doing is we are going to cause so much pain for another living being just to enhanced your health ? That's not my believe this has to stop we can't do this forever .
That's surprising. Committing suicide is such human behavior. That's bound to create an emotional response in relatively "normal" people. These workers probably aren't (compared to our culture that is).
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Just because it's old doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.
In western cultural, specially in the nordic We used a method called Bloodletting.
Basically the theory was that when someone got ill it was in their blood. (which partially was true) so the proper treatment would be to remove the "bad" blood, this was done by tapping the patients of blood and this way make them all good again. The effect of this (of course) on an ill patient was that he suffered sever blood loss and the infection was still left in his body and the patient died.
This shit was going on for over 2.000 years. This alternative medicin, some of it, might not be as lethal as bloodletting but it sure as hell still is just as fucked up as bloodletting was and it being "old" doesn't automatically make it work.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
I think it's stupid to suggest that thousands of years of history behind flat-earthism... Or traditional medicine has anything to offer, if it can't pass double-blind clinicial trials.
I never said it was all correct, or even mostly correct. I just think that there is probably a lot of value/truth to some or much of it. There's plenty of techniques/medicines from older civilizations that have tons of value.... and China is very old... there is no reason they couldn't have discovered legitimate medicines/techniques in that time. Actually it would be stupid to suggest they never did.
That mama bear is beautiful imo. Its extremely tragic but that was an instinctive decision because obviously they have no hope.
On a side note, things like this should be death penalty... they lead to notions such as human "baby machines" pretty easily. The people have no souls. How do you even tell people you work there? "Hey, just a grand old day, torturing some animals on the planet for money because I have no other skills".
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
And? I support "animal cruelty" if its useful to me or others, this isnt. Hence I can and do condemn it with complete consistency, now run along and eat a tomatoe.
-----
Bears arent sentient, claiming it consciously decided to euthanize its cub, embraced it beforehand knowing what it would do, and then running into a wall? Sorry, literally beyond its conceptual possibilities. The bear probably simply went mad from pain/infections and acted irrationally. That or its an entire lie, this is a story about some random shady bear milking business off in the boonies of china. Not exactly what you would call reputable.
On August 12 2011 14:47 kaisen wrote: Doesn't that mean they have some form of conscious to know that if they kept it up then they'd be free of pain? As well as knowing that they only way to save her cub was to kill it (therefore being free of pain) therefore having some knowledge of what death is?
We have no idea what happened or what the bear was trying to do. There's too much anthropomorphizing going on here. Obviously the rest of the story is extremely sad but that kind of animal suffering is not exactly uncommon around the world .
Why did I read all of this? Fuck this is disgusting. If that story is true... and the bear is smart enough to recognize these things.... my god.
Is there any secret organization that goes around the world fucking up the people who do this and rescuing the animals that I can join? I ain't talking about peta and throwing blood on celebrities... thinking more along the lines of that X-men ship dropping down on these foo's and freeing/executing some bears.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Do you know the difference between HUMANE KILLING AND INHUMANE ??????? What if i stuck a big damn rod into your stomach and drain your guts out of you will you @#$% enjoy it ??? Tell me ?These animals are not even given pain killers or anesthetic to ease the pain when they are gutted out of their joy for !@#$ medicinal values .
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Cmon m8 killing for food is very different to torturing and milking for gut juices.
And yeh sure lots of places in the west treat animals badly and it's disgraceful, but there are also a lot of western states and slaughter houses that are quite humane and careful about the way they go about it as well.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Do you know the difference between HUMANE KILLING AND INHUMANE ??????? What if i stuck a big damn rod into your stomach and drain your guts out of you will you @#$% enjoy it ??? Tell me ?These animals are not even given pain killers or anesthetic to ease the pain when they are gutted out of their joy for !@#$ medicinal values .
i think his point is that there is inhumane treatment of animals in other places (such as USA) too.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Do you know the difference between HUMANE KILLING AND INHUMANE ??????? What if i stuck a big damn rod into your stomach and drain your guts out of you will you @#$% enjoy it ??? Tell me ?These animals are not even given pain killers or anesthetic to ease the pain when they are gutted out of their joy for !@#$ medicinal values .
Do you know how veal is produced? Or in animal drug testing, etc.
On August 12 2011 15:14 TheLOLas wrote: 1. Very sad story 2. It is terrible that this was ever practiced 3. I kind of doubt the legitimacy of this story. I mean how in the hell can a bear be able to understand the concept of putting its cub out of its misery.
You'd be surprised the way a mother animal will act to protect her babies from potential harm or danger. A mother rabbit will kill her own babies rather then have a predator or other threat do so.
But on the topic of this thread, I can't believe the inhumane treatment of not only this case, but others all around the world. I know it's low chance of this ever changing, but the best I can do is hope.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
They do have a chart that looks incomplete... but it's mostly about how things flow from one end to another...like striking the shoulder when the arm is fully extended... where the artery connects to the heart...only a slight shock or jolt...
Kind of amazing that the bear would know to suicide after killing her own cub.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Do you know the difference between HUMANE KILLING AND INHUMANE ??????? What if i stuck a big damn rod into your stomach and drain your guts out of you will you @#$% enjoy it ??? Tell me ?These animals are not even given pain killers or anesthetic to ease the pain when they are gutted out of their joy for !@#$ medicinal values .
Are we implying we kill animals "humanely" (is there even such thing as humane killing?) in the West?
Wish that animal cruelty was something that didn't exist. Speechless about how the mother bear had the heart to save her cub and herself from a lifetime of pain and suffering.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
As if becoming a vegan/vegetarian would solve anything?
Well if it was adopted wholesale it would result in the extinction of several species of bovine, billions of chicken etc etc. If an animal doesnt have a purpose [i.e its cute or tastey] its eventually confined to a very small area if not killed all together.
On August 12 2011 15:29 naventus wrote: Travis you need to watch Food Inc., goes into detail about some of the abominable practices in the food industry, especially regarding livestock.
abdominal? do you mean abominable? or they actually doing things to the abdomens of animals? edit: hehe yeah you did
On August 12 2011 15:29 Chrispy wrote: Can anyone explain why in those photos there white people holding the dead bear and white people all around?
This is an extremely groundbreaking event in psychology if not dismissed as an 'accident'. Brings up a lot of claims on some things so deep I cannot bear to discuss them right now.
they are unable to bear the pain.
that really hit the spot. can't help but notice the pun in it, surely it was intentional.
this makes me hate people, that's so horrible, how can people do this, I can't understand, we kill so many vital animals in our ecosystem and cause them so much pain and distress, people fin sharks than throw the writhing body in the ocean, they do this fucked up shit to bears, they hunt elephants for tusks, and although most of these practices are greatly reduced, things like shark finning are so prodominent still and it makes me sick, such regal beautiful important animals destroyed for no reason :'(
Im sure plenty of chinese think this practice backwards and barbaric. The sooner traditional medicines go the way of the Dodo the better. You wont cure cancer by drinking dolphin piss or sticking a crystal up your posterior.
Scientific methods are the only way - not ancient quackery.
That's really sad, considering there are ways to avoid this, and bear bile isn't needed, there are alternatives. I hate to imagine what the bear had been going through, emotionally and physically.
On August 12 2011 15:29 Chrispy wrote: Can anyone explain why in those photos there white people holding the dead bear and white people all around?
It's a tad shady, but I'd hesitate to believe that it'd be Chinese news reporters spreading the news. Not to say that white people are always the good guys, but given how the government has a chokehold on everything, I dont think a story like this would fly without some foreign media getting involved.
Systematic torture of animals is everywhere. Factory farms have all kinds of inhumane procedures that would be defined as strong torture when applied to a human - cutting off appendages without any anesthetic, flesh-branding, being put into confines too small for one to be able to sit or even turn around, forced to deal with the ever-mounting pile of feces, kept in the dark for 20+ hours a day. And then there's the actual treatment of the animals during those few hours of their lives when they're actual transited somewhere.
A lot of animals we cultivate have existences that are as horrific as these bears'.
I don't think bears are overwhelmingly more possessing of real feelings than a chicken or a pig. They all care for their offspring and, as such, they can all feel the severe horror of being unable to protect them.
On August 12 2011 15:31 Slago wrote: this makes me hate people, that's so horrible, how can people do this, I can't understand, we kill so many vital animals in our ecosystem and cause them so much pain and distress, people fin sharks than throw the writhing body in the ocean, they do this fucked up shit to bears, they hunt elephants for tusks, and although most of these practices are greatly reduced, things like shark finning are so prodominent still and it makes me sick, such regal beautiful important animals destroyed for no reason :'(
On August 12 2011 15:14 TheLOLas wrote: 1. Very sad story 2. It is terrible that this was ever practiced 3. I kind of doubt the legitimacy of this story. I mean how in the hell can a bear be able to understand the concept of putting its cub out of its misery.
You'd be surprised the way a mother animal will act to protect her babies from potential harm or danger. A mother rabbit will kill her own babies rather then have a predator or other threat do so.
There's a difference between a tangible threat (predator) and an intangible concept (lifetime of suffering.) The latter requires a level of brain function that's basically just unique to humans, as far as we know. Problem solving is one thing. Planning is another.
On August 12 2011 15:31 BioTech wrote: Im sure plenty of chinese think this practice backwards and barbaric. The sooner traditional medicines go the way of the Dodo the better. You wont cure cancer by drinking dolphin piss or sticking a crystal up your posterior.
Scientific methods are the only way - not ancient quackery.
Sigh. Is the fact that it's unscientific in any way related to the fact that it caused pain and suffering? No. Does using established research methods help prevent pain and suffering during the testing phase? Not necessarily.
On August 12 2011 15:29 Chrispy wrote: Can anyone explain why in those photos there white people holding the dead bear and white people all around?
It's a tad shady, but I'd hesitate to believe that it'd be Chinese news reporters spreading the news. Not to say that white people are always the good guys, but given how the government has a chokehold on everything, I dont think a story like this would fly without some foreign media getting involved.
Well if it's authenticity is questionable, the next line is - who has an interest in rallying people against an imaginary atrocity?
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other suggested medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to its uneducated "practitioners".
Perfect video on the subject (and is a pleasant break from the horror of animal cruelty such as this).
Traditional chinese medicine - like many alternative/traditional forms of medicine - is mostly bullshit. However, there ARE some medicines that definitely work.
Which is why science studied these medicines, discovered which of them actually worked and why, extracted/concentrated the active ingredients, and it turned into MEDICINE. Your quote is a perfect example of this; the bear juice works. However, science studied it, discovered the active ingredient, and found a way to artificially synthesize it without the need for any cruelty to bears.
God I despise how humans have this apparently unending need to believe animals are just like us. Bears arent smart enough to understand concepts like euthanasia, its literally impossible for the bear to have done what was described with the intention of what was implied. Bears cant commit suicide, they dont murder bears or humans, they kill them. It's just meaningless actions brought about by instinct and learned behavior. The bear was driven mad and killed things around it > The bear has advanced concepts and a secular western sense of morality and the value of life, planned its escape blah blah blah
On August 12 2011 15:26 Oxymoron wrote: Are we implying we kill animals "humanely" (is there even such thing as humane killing?) in the West?
There are humane methods for killing livestock.
Extract from Humane Slaughter Act: (a) in the case of cattle, calves, horses, mules, sheep, swine, and other livestock, all animals are rendered insensible to pain by a single blow or gunshot or an electrical, chemical or other means that is rapid and effective, before being shackled, hoisted, thrown, cast, or cut; or
On August 12 2011 15:29 Chrispy wrote: Can anyone explain why in those photos there are white people holding the dead bear and white people all around?
On August 12 2011 15:07 AustinCM wrote: "Traditional" Remedies and Medicine are a total joke, people should get with reality and stop believing and relying on pseudo science horse shit.
While I suppose I somewhat agree with you on the principle that people should embrace rationality and science over traditional beliefs steeped in mysticism or superstition, there are examples of times when "traditional" medicine is efficacious (for example, boiling willow bark for pain relief; the acetylsalicylic acid in the willow bark is the main ingredient of aspirin).
People are remarkably good at finding patterns: "oh, you had a fever and some soreness but you drank some willow tree and it's better? Next time someone has a fever, let's try giving them that." This type of behavior is the basis of the scientific method. That is, you observe a phenomenon, form a hypothesis, and test the hypothesis to see if it conforms to your expectations. If not, then you discard it. Native American populations repeatedly saw the efficacy of willow bark in treating mild fevers and pains, and thus correctly "prescribed" it for those same conditions in the future.
As for bear bile, it is efficacious for certain conditions, notably gallstones, because of the ursodeoxycholic acid in the bile itself. It's (the acid, not the bile) also the only FDA approved treatment for primary biliary cirrhosis. Obviously, people suffering from these conditions would benefit from consuming bear bile products. However, since modern medicine has found ways to humanely (and cheaply, might I add) synthesize the active ingredient, traditional extraction is no longer necessary for production of the ursodeoxycholic acid.
That being said, Chinese people are incredibly superstitious, and will stick to tradition like nobody's business. I've had many medical doctors subscribe to the theory of "heat" in terms of things like "oh you shouldn't eat that. It'll increase your heat." This, from physicians trained in Western medicine as well. It's something deeply ingrained in the culture, and any attempts to eschew traditional practices in favor of modern science will be met with criticism (gonna go with some wild speculation here and attribute it to an inferiority complex). This is also why you have people continuing the incredibly cruel extraction of bear bile instead of simply paying grad students to chemically synthesize ursodiol.
So no, not all of traditional medicine is bullshit, but it's backwards and detrimental to blindly cling onto traditional practice in the face of scientific advances. For the record, if I were ever offered the choice, I'd take modern medicine in a heartbeat. But that doesn't mean that none of its discoveries were engendered by traditional practices.
On August 12 2011 15:29 Chrispy wrote: Can anyone explain why in those photos there white people holding the dead bear and white people all around?
It's a tad shady, but I'd hesitate to believe that it'd be Chinese news reporters spreading the news. Not to say that white people are always the good guys, but given how the government has a chokehold on everything, I dont think a story like this would fly without some foreign media getting involved.
Well if it's authenticity is questionable, the next line is - who has an interest in rallying people against an imaginary atrocity?
Actually looking at the article more carefully it appears the photos are just intended to illustrate what bear farms are generally like, taken from an organization that has previously entered one. It doesn't claim this is the farm where the incident occurred.
So I don't really see any holes in the article, just don't have any other sources atm.
EDIT: man this thread is moving so fast, important link at bottom of last page
On August 12 2011 15:14 TheLOLas wrote: 1. Very sad story 2. It is terrible that this was ever practiced 3. I kind of doubt the legitimacy of this story. I mean how in the hell can a bear be able to understand the concept of putting its cub out of its misery.
You'd be surprised the way a mother animal will act to protect her babies from potential harm or danger. A mother rabbit will kill her own babies rather then have a predator or other threat do so.
There's a difference between a tangible threat (predator) and an intangible concept (lifetime of suffering.) The latter requires a level of brain function that's basically just unique to humans, as far as we know. Problem solving is one thing. Planning is another.
Ah, you do have a point there. But I'd still like to believe even if there's the basic concept of protection by death when danger's right in front of you, that the concept can go even farther if not just that instance.
On August 12 2011 15:31 Slago wrote: this makes me hate people, that's so horrible, how can people do this, I can't understand, we kill so many vital animals in our ecosystem and cause them so much pain and distress, people fin sharks than throw the writhing body in the ocean, they do this fucked up shit to bears, they hunt elephants for tusks, and although most of these practices are greatly reduced, things like shark finning are so prodominent still and it makes me sick, such regal beautiful important animals destroyed for no reason :'(
I guess you prefer the communist variety that has proven to work out so well?
Funny I work with someone who went from homeless to now buying a brand new car..and you cite capitalism? The system is fine, shitty people are your issue.
Milking bears for their bile, foie gras and other practices that subject animals to an unnatural degree of continued suffering are all disgusting practices.
On August 12 2011 15:41 Jayson X wrote: That's pretty fucking fucked up. How can you even "work" with these animals and completely not give a fuck. We're all so going to hell.
The same way factory farmers can slaughter and gut hundreds of cows a day. At some point, you just stop caring and start thinking of it as business.
EDIT: Of course, this isn't to say that it's an absolutely disgusting practice, but this is only from our point of view.
On August 12 2011 15:35 lizzard_warish wrote: God I despise how humans have this apparently unending need to believe animals are just like us. Bears arent smart enough to understand concepts like euthanasia, its literally impossible for the bear to have done what was described with the intention of what was implied. Bears cant commit suicide, they dont murder bears or humans, they kill them. It's just meaningless actions brought about by instinct and learned behavior. The bear was driven mad and killed things around it > The bear has advanced concepts and a secular western sense of morality and the value of life, planned its escape blah blah blah
Seriously people. -_-
Horror and maternal protectiveness are not "secular western senses of morality".
I'm not sure the mother bear committed suicide either. It could more likely be that she was simply too enraged and grief-stricken to care about her own safety or understand what she was doing. I'll agree with you there.
Animals may not have "advanced concepts" as you put it, but they do have a central nervous system that works the same ways ours does. When we see our child get tortured, we don't "plan", we don't "conceptualize", we're reduced to our base feelings of pain. It is a natural instinct inherent in all animals, bears and humans alike.
I don't think anyone is arguing we offended the bear's "morality". To say the bear's actions are "meaningless", "brought about by instinct and learned behavior", the same could be said about people.
Haha Empyrean shang huo right? My relatives said that all the time while I was in China this summer. And I think herbal and traditional remedies actually do work a lot of the time and have scientific reasoning behind them when analyzed closely. That said, I don't use them that much, but they are definitely not something to be discredited. In a thousand years people might call our medicines 'traditional' and useless, but does that mean they really are?
In this topic we have righteous westerners lamenting Chinese habits and superstitions? Give me a break, look to your god damned countries before acting "outraged". Better yet, spend a little of your wealth to help those organizations that actively campaign against animal cruelty, or maybe help a couple of starving children once in a while.
Yes, this is very sad and you will find similar criticism from the Chinese people living in the cities. However, there are many parts of China that have been left behind during the past 50 years, and a lot still cling to old beliefs because that's all they ever knew. That's reality, and unfortunately, there is not much you keyboard warriors can do about that.
On August 12 2011 15:46 Superiorwolf wrote: Haha Empyrean shang huo right? My relatives said that all the time while I was in China this summer. And I think herbal and traditional remedies actually do work a lot of the time and have scientific reasoning behind them when analyzed closely. That said, I don't use them that much, but they are definitely not something to be discredited. In a thousand years people might call our medicines 'traditional' and useless, but does that mean they really are?
Yes, oh my goodness that concept is ridiculous.
As an aside, whenever I have a sore throat, I use an infusion of sterculia as a tisane to address it. It's incredibly effective and I have no idea why. I'm really hoping someone (...or an institution, hopefully) runs a study on its efficacy and identifies the effective ingredient so I can stop drinking tea and just take a fucking pill.
On August 12 2011 15:07 AustinCM wrote: "Traditional" Remedies and Medicine are a total joke, people should get with reality and stop believing and relying on pseudo science horse shit.
While I suppose I somewhat agree with you on the principle that people should embrace rationality and science over traditional beliefs steeped in mysticism or superstition, there are examples of times when "traditional" medicine is efficacious (for example, boiling willow bark for pain relief; the acetylsalicylic acid in the willow bark is the main ingredient of aspirin).
People are remarkably good at finding patterns: "oh, you had a fever and some soreness but you drank some willow tree and it's better? Next time someone has a fever, let's try giving them that." This type of behavior is the basis of the scientific method. That is, you observe a phenomenon, form a hypothesis, and test the hypothesis to see if it conforms to your expectations. If not, then you discard it. Native American populations repeatedly saw the efficacy of willow bark in treating mild fevers and pains, and thus correctly "prescribed" it for those same conditions in the future.
As for bear bile, it is efficacious for certain conditions, notably gallstones, because of the ursodeoxycholic acid in the bile itself. It's (the acid, not the bile) also the only FDA approved treatment for primary biliary cirrhosis. Obviously, people suffering from these conditions would benefit from consuming bear bile products. However, since modern medicine has found ways to humanely (and cheaply, might I add) synthesize the active ingredient, traditional extraction is no longer necessary for production of the ursodeoxycholic acid.
That being said, Chinese people are incredibly superstitious, and will stick to tradition like nobody's business. I've had many medical doctors subscribe to the theory of "heat" in terms of things like "oh you shouldn't eat that. It'll increase your heat." This, from physicians trained in Western medicine as well. It's something deeply ingrained in the culture, and any attempts to eschew traditional practices in favor of modern science will be met with criticism (gonna go with some wild speculation here and attribute it to an inferiority complex). This is also why you have people continuing the incredibly cruel extraction of bear bile instead of simply paying grad students to chemically synthesize ursodiol.
So no, not all of traditional medicine is bullshit, but it's backwards and detrimental to blindly cling onto traditional practice in the face of scientific advances. For the record, if I were ever offered the choice, I'd take modern medicine in a heartbeat. But that doesn't mean that none of its discoveries were engendered by traditional practices.
EDIT: minor grammar. oops.
Whoa dropping some knowledge bombs.
Now that I read it twice... this is all based off 1 witness. I'm not so sure anymore now haha.
On August 12 2011 15:50 Kh0rne wrote: I'm curious how the bear extract is meant to work.
I know its going to be traditional magic / hype, but i wonder how they try to explain it?
It contains ursodeoxycholic acid. That's how it works.
That being said, ursodeoxycholic acid actually isn't effective for any of the conditions they're using it for. It's used for gallstones and primary biliary cirrhosis.
On August 12 2011 15:07 AustinCM wrote: "Traditional" Remedies and Medicine are a total joke, people should get with reality and stop believing and relying on pseudo science horse shit.
While I suppose I somewhat agree with you on the principle that people should embrace rationality and science over traditional beliefs steeped in mysticism or superstition, there are examples of times when "traditional" medicine is efficacious (for example, boiling willow bark for pain relief; the acetylsalicylic acid in the willow bark is the main ingredient of aspirin).
People are remarkably good at finding patterns: "oh, you had a fever and some soreness but you drank some willow tree and it's better? Next time someone has a fever, let's try giving them that." This type of behavior is the basis of the scientific method. That is, you observe a phenomenon, form a hypothesis, and test the hypothesis to see if it conforms to your expectations. If not, then you discard it. Native American populations repeatedly saw the efficacy of willow bark in treating mild fevers and pains, and thus correctly "prescribed" it for those same conditions in the future.
As for bear bile, it is efficacious for certain conditions, notably gallstones, because of the ursodeoxycholic acid in the bile itself. It's (the acid, not the bile) also the only FDA approved treatment for primary biliary cirrhosis. Obviously, people suffering from these conditions would benefit from consuming bear bile products. However, since modern medicine has found ways to humanely (and cheaply, might I add) synthesize the active ingredient, traditional extraction is no longer necessary for production of the ursodeoxycholic acid.
That being said, Chinese people are incredibly superstitious, and will stick to tradition like nobody's business. I've had many medical doctors subscribe to the theory of "heat" in terms of things like "oh you shouldn't eat that. It'll increase your heat." This, from physicians trained in Western medicine as well. It's something deeply ingrained in the culture, and any attempts to eschew traditional practices in favor of modern science will be met with criticism (gonna go with some wild speculation here and attribute it to an inferiority complex). This is also why you have people continuing the incredibly cruel extraction of bear bile instead of simply paying grad students to chemically synthesize ursodiol.
So no, not all of traditional medicine is bullshit, but it's backwards and detrimental to blindly cling onto traditional practice in the face of scientific advances. For the record, if I were ever offered the choice, I'd take modern medicine in a heartbeat. But that doesn't mean that none of its discoveries were engendered by traditional practices.
EDIT: minor grammar. oops.
Whoa dropping some knowledge bombs.
Now that I read it twice... this is all based off 1 witness. I'm not so sure anymore now haha.
No, trust me, the bear bile extraction business is booming in China, and it's incredibly inhumane.
I can kill any animal and eat it, doesn't bother me... but for f sake. Show the animal some respect and kill it. Instant death. Having the animal suffer like that? Gah, sick.
On August 12 2011 15:04 Hypemeup wrote: She killed herself running into a wall headfirst? I realise they are heavy and all but dont bears have super thick skulls?
Probably snapped it's neck. Instant death. Neck vertebrae are nowhere near as strong as the skull. Especially if the neck muscles are relaxed, which was deliberate because of suicidal intentions.
I'm very surprised and at the same time disturbed at that bear's intelligence, i thought animals are supposed to be dumb but it takes a certain level of understanding to comprehend the situation and the future of the cubs, and killing the cub so it wouldnt suffer... i know animals have born with primal instinct to protect their younglings but bears might be smarter than we give credit for.
I think Tarsiers also have a habit of killing themselves by ramming their head into a wall when they feel that their life is threatened. the suffocating of offspring thing is the first i've heard of though, in animals of course
I doubt the mama bear deliberate killed the cub and then itself. Most likely, it was raged/crazed due to the treatment it was receiving and hearing the cry of her cub, so killed her cub accidentally, then in another fit of rage/craze ran into a wall and died.
That "heat" thing is actually more ingrained in their language... since they always use the word "hot"+"air" or something... whenever they talk about things relating to fried food of any sort...
On August 12 2011 15:59 nalgene wrote: That "heat" thing is actually more ingrained in their language... since they always use the word "hot"+"air" or something... whenever they talk about things relating to fried food of any sort...
Yes, and it has little basis in physical fact.
On August 12 2011 15:58 Daniel C wrote: I doubt the mama bear deliberate killed the cub and then itself. Most likely, it was raged/crazed due to the treatment it was receiving and hearing the cry of her cub, so killed her cub accidentally, then in another fit of rage/craze ran into a wall and died.
This does seem more plausible. Humans are excellent at ascribing purpose to action.
That's terrible :/ I eat meat, and am by no means anywhere close to being a peta member, but wow,
Sort of unrelated, but I didn't know bears were so smart. At least to me it appears that the bear did a very rational thing that went somewhat against natural animal instinct to survive.
Does anybody know if bear bile can actually be used as some kind of remedy or is it some superstitious belief? Also how credible is this source? I mean the mother could have killed the cub while trying to free it.
On August 12 2011 14:53 travis wrote: Bears have very thick skulls. I doubt it could run into a wall and kill itself.
That said, is what is attested to here actually legal?
Of course it isn't. At least, not legal according to international standards. But of course, what do international standards matter to some fucked up countries?
On August 12 2011 16:05 BearStorm wrote: Does anybody know if bear bile can actually be used as some kind of remedy or is it some superstitious belief? Also how credible is this source? I mean the mother could have killed the cub while trying to free it.
Bear bile has approximately the same effect as homeopathic remedies. That is to say, fuck-all.
Jesus fucking christ. I feel I cant buy anything these days without being part of this cruelty. There is so much of it, that no matter what I accidently support some shit without knowing it. How am I suppose to keep up to date with all this shit going on?
edit: what is this link http://www.endbearfarming.org/en/take-action.html ? Some petition? How do I know its legit, not just some laughable scam to collect emails? When money is involved, human trust disappears..
On August 12 2011 16:05 BearStorm wrote: Does anybody know if bear bile can actually be used as some kind of remedy or is it some superstitious belief? Also how credible is this source? I mean the mother could have killed the cub while trying to free it.
Bear bile has approximately the same effect as homeopathic remedies. That is to say, fuck-all.
Do you know how many times I've had to post this already?
So yes, it has clinical effectiveness against certain conditions. No, Chinese people aren't using it for those conditions so it has no effect for what they're using it for.
On August 12 2011 16:04 KingofHearts wrote: Please take action now and sign the petition here http://www.endbearfarming.org/en/take-action.html we must do everything we can to help, including boycotting all bears and animals products.
By the way, this'll do nothing. The Chinese government isn't going to crack down on this industry when it has better things to do with its time (currently trying to manage the massive scandal with large scale infrastructure projects), and those that buy these products are going to continue to do so, as they're virtually all incredibly superstitious people, generally without internet access anyway.
But it's a good gesture. Unfortunately, there's pretty much nothing we can do about it.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
How could you so easily draw the conclusion that the mother bear was cognizant of the situation and killed her cub and then herself b/c it understood what was happening? That's laughable. The bear was probably driven to insanity from being caged like that, and just killed the cub for no apparent reason and then ran itself into a wall. To automatically assume that this mother bear understood pain and suffering on some deep level is just preposterous based on what little facts there are about this story.
I have this long standing belief that petition, especially online petition, doesn't work jack shit. If I sign it, that would be going against my belief.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
Well you have to take into account that this thread is VERY emotional, this is pure torture. I was very close to direct all my hate towards the chinese as well, then I took a step back and realized this shit happens everywhere. Hate never wins anyway.
There is always something you can do, as long as you take it into the correct direction. I have no idea what that direction is now :/
On August 12 2011 16:19 GuYuTe- wrote: How could you so easily draw the conclusion that the mother bear was cognizant of the situation and killed her cub and then herself b/c it understood what was happening? That's laughable. The bear was probably driven to insanity from being caged like that, and just killed the cub for no apparent reason and then ran itself into a wall. To automatically assume that this mother bear understood pain and suffering on some deep level is just preposterous based on what little facts there are about this story.
Did you just describe how human makes suicide? Aren't we also driven to insanity when commiting suicide? Wouldn't you also commit suicide in that situation? What makes a person commit suicide?
I have this long standing belief that petition, especially online petition, doesn't work jack shit. If I sign it, that would be going against my belief.
jackie chan is lending his face and voice in that petition.. he is well known and rich,, what do you have to lose? it doesnt cost money and it's fast to sign.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
Well you have to take into account that this thread is VERY emotional, this is pure torture. I was very close to direct all my hate towards the chinese as well, then I took a step back and realized this shit happens everywhere. Hate never wins anyway.
There is always something you can do, as long as you take it into the correct direction. I have no idea what that direction is now :/
Often times it's to simply realize that you can't do anything about it and go on with your life.
If you're really moved to action on the subject of animal treatment, you can try to make a small positive difference where you can by buying locally and humanely raised meat, factory/cage-free eggs, etc.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
I have this long standing belief that petition, especially online petition, doesn't work jack shit. If I sign it, that would be going against my belief.
jackie chan is lending his face and voice in that petition.. he is well known and rich,, what do you have to lose? it doesnt cost money and its fast to sign.
How do you know that Jackie Chan is actually supporting this petition? What if the site is using Jackie Chan's picture to drive more people to sign the petition? PETA has done this thing in the past so I'm not buying this whole petition supported by Jackie Chan, unless I get a valid source that he actually is.
I have this long standing belief that petition, especially online petition, doesn't work jack shit. If I sign it, that would be going against my belief.
jackie chan is lending his face and voice in that petition.. he is well known and rich,, what do you have to lose? it doesnt cost money and its fast to sign.
How do you know that Jackie Chan is actually supporting this petition? What if the site is using Jackie Chan's picture to drive more people to sign the petition? PETA has done this thing in the past so I'm not buying this whole petition supported by Jackie Chan, unless I get a valid source that he actually is.
It's fairly evident with a bit of googling, actually. Here's a PSA he made:
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
Well you have to take into account that this thread is VERY emotional, this is pure torture. I was very close to direct all my hate towards the chinese as well, then I took a step back and realized this shit happens everywhere. Hate never wins anyway.
There is always something you can do, as long as you take it into the correct direction. I have no idea what that direction is now :/
Often times it's to simply realize that you can't do anything about it and go on with your life.
If you're really moved to action on the subject of animal treatment, you can try to make a small positive difference where you can by buying locally and humanely raised meat, factory/cage-free eggs, etc.
I am already doing this, buying as locally as I can. But then I go and buy myself some cloths, shoes, and I have no idea that these cloths may be part of some baby bear balls, cut off while mother was forced to watch.. Then I buy myself a new furniture, without knowing that this thing is cut in some forest, that humans had to slaughter local families to get.
I'll take your advice to just get going with my life. One day I'll shape my own damn furniture.
I have this long standing belief that petition, especially online petition, doesn't work jack shit. If I sign it, that would be going against my belief.
jackie chan is lending his face and voice in that petition.. he is well known and rich,, what do you have to lose? it doesnt cost money and its fast to sign.
How do you know that Jackie Chan is actually supporting this petition? What if the site is using Jackie Chan's picture to drive more people to sign the petition? PETA has done this thing in the past so I'm not buying this whole petition supported by Jackie Chan, unless I get a valid source that he actually is.
It's fairly evident with a bit of googling, actually. Here's a PSA he made:
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
Yes, highlight China, because in a country like Hungary geese aren't forcefed to put foie gras on French tables.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
LOOOOOL Not gonna lie I laughed when i read that too lol Canada doesnt raise its cattle like he described. Maybe a few small farms but the main exporters of food dont...Hell seal hunting is another that canada has. One thing I would NEVER do is blame a whole population for it.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
Yes, highlight China, because in a country like Hungary geese aren't forcefed to put foie gras on French tables.
The tu quoque fallacy is an incredibly poor defense.
China engages in some incredibly inhumane practices. So do other countries. That doesn't make China's shortcomings any less admissible.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
Yes, highlight China, because in a country like Hungary geese aren't forcefed to put foie gras on French tables.
you jelly?
I don't see how Hungarian geese or French foi gras has anything to do with this.
Animal cruelty aside, the sheer uselessness of what the Chinese folks involved with this is astounding. Bear bile does jack, the way they're using it, and the stuff is probably cheaper and safer to synthesize in a lab for real medicinal uses.
Pointless cruelty is disgusting. Even worse than those Rhino poachers who grind the horn(s) up for "medicinal" purposes.
i never heard of animals committing suicide. Ok, some who feel they are too old they go to die or whatever, but that could be instinct too cuz their biological hour is up, but that an actual mature bear realizes that it s better to kill herself and her cub that s just idk... human
The way I see it.. if people make a big enough deal over this, the Chinese government might go ahead and take action to show the world how modern/civilized it is? Good PR move IMO.
On August 12 2011 16:34 .Aar wrote: The way I see it.. if people make a big enough deal over this, the Chinese government might go ahead and take action to show the world how modern/civilized it is? Good PR move IMO.
It'll shut down a few of the factories to show that it's making an "earnest effort" and not give a shit about the rest. You have an incredibly rosy view of the Chinese government.
On August 12 2011 16:34 .Aar wrote: The way I see it.. if people make a big enough deal over this, the Chinese government might go ahead and take action to show the world how modern/civilized it is? Good PR move IMO.
Better idea is to dry up demand, not supply. Educate the idiots who buy these products, their families will be safer for it.
They didnt even extract the semen? What the hell kind of waste is that?!
Jokes aside, this is one of many things that made me go vegan and I hope this whole story can at least make at least just one person think of it aswell so we can at least get something good out of it.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
Do they? While I am not surprised, I believe the primary reason for debeaking is that they hurt the other chickens.
This is true. Chickens have a problem with killing and eating each other. Unfortunate they are put in that situation though.
On August 12 2011 16:34 .Aar wrote: The way I see it.. if people make a big enough deal over this, the Chinese government might go ahead and take action to show the world how modern/civilized it is? Good PR move IMO.
Better idea is to dry up demand, not supply. Educate the idiots who buy these products, their families will be safer for it.
A lofty goal. The government can't do anything to the entrenchment of traditional Chinese belief. The majority of China's population is poorly educated and cling very tightly to traditional beliefs.
On August 12 2011 16:42 Empyrean wrote: A lofty goal. The government can't do anything to the entrenchment of traditional Chinese belief. The majority of China's population is poorly educated and cling very tightly to traditional beliefs.
We got rid of most of the quackery in America over the last century the same way...it takes a while, but it's more certain. Superstition tends to die fast when science comes around. And China's going to have to educate its masses sooner or later.
I'm not saying that it'll get rid of all of it, but it permanently reduces it.
On August 12 2011 16:34 .Aar wrote: The way I see it.. if people make a big enough deal over this, the Chinese government might go ahead and take action to show the world how modern/civilized it is? Good PR move IMO.
The Chinese government's official stance on this is that bile farms deter moon bear, the type of bear used, poaching. Its estimated that 10,000 bears would die each year to poaching compared to the ~8000 bears kept in captivity.
I suppose from a pure numbers standpoint this is true, since the captive bears could reproduce and leave the wild population untouched. However, imo the conditions the bears face on the farms is disgusting and changes must be made.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
Yup. Here's a picture of a farm just off the highway inbetween Edmonton and Calgary:
I mean yeah we kill them, but they still lead a full and carefree life before then. We do however keep them in stables during the winter, but I'd like to think it is preferable that way... -40 is a touch cold.
On August 12 2011 16:42 Empyrean wrote: A lofty goal. The government can't do anything to the entrenchment of traditional Chinese belief. The majority of China's population is poorly educated and cling very tightly to traditional beliefs.
We got rid of most of the quackery in America over the last century the same way...it takes a while, but it's more certain. Superstition tends to die fast when science comes around.
I'm not saying that it'll get rid of all of it, but it permanently reduces it.
It's actually incredibly hard to articulate my entire line of thought, but traditional Chinese beliefs have been entrenched in the collective psyche for millennia, and I highly doubt that the government's going to do away with them, even among a small portion of the population. Traditional beliefs come with the idea of China's inherent superiority to other cultures, and traditional medicine is widely considered to be a useful line of inquiry, parallel or even superior to modern medicine.
Like...I can't explain it. You're never going to get rid of these beliefs in a large segment of the population.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
Yup. Here's a picture of a farm just off the highway inbetween Edmonton and Calgary:
I mean yeah we kill them, but they still lead a full and carefree life before then.
Please don't delude yourself that this is how all, or even the majority, of Canadian livestock is treated. Most Canadian livestock is raised in the same way that most American livestock is: in factory settings on an industrial scale.
I didn't know bears where this smart or 'human like' (Seeing as it knew the pain of killing a child [to save it from tourtue] and then feel remorse for what is has done)
I didn't know bears where this smart or 'human like' (Seeing as it knew the pain of killing a child [to save it from tourtue] and then feel remorse for what is has done)
In other news. This is pretty sickening.
Again, this is ascribing purpose to action. It's more likely that the bear was driven insane by the torture and inadvertently killed its child and itself.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
Yup. Here's a picture of a farm just off the highway inbetween Edmonton and Calgary:
I mean yeah we kill them, but they still lead a full and carefree life before then. We do however keep them in stables during the winter, but I'd like to think it is preferable that way... -40 is a touch cold.
You are kidding me right? Most Canadian cows are produced in a factory setting just like America.
Mongolia, however, actually raises cows like that. I love Mongolia.
God! What is it with these assholes and being a dick to animals. If you want to use it's stuff than fucking kill it already! Fucking chinese! I'm ashamed to be one. My parents tell me stories like these that I never want to hear. Like how villagers would chop off half a fish at the right angle so that it'll barely survive...that way you can save it for later meals. Fucking retarded animal cruelty.
I didn't know bears where this smart or 'human like' (Seeing as it knew the pain of killing a child [to save it from tourtue] and then feel remorse for what is has done)
In other news. This is pretty sickening.
Again, this is ascribing purpose to action. It's more likely that the bear was driven insane by the torture and inadvertently killed its child and itself.
either or, it doesn't really matter, those bears shouldn't be treated that way in the first place.
On August 12 2011 16:47 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: So... does this mean that there actually isn't enough human suicides to satisfy the news? we have to look towards animals?
... wow sympathy much, you're not even vaguely disturbed by this... why even post that here, why post at all?
I didn't know bears where this smart or 'human like' (Seeing as it knew the pain of killing a child [to save it from tourtue] and then feel remorse for what is has done)
In other news. This is pretty sickening.
Again, this is ascribing purpose to action. It's more likely that the bear was driven insane by the torture and inadvertently killed its child and itself.
either or, it doesn't really matter, those bears shouldn't be treated that way in the first place.
Oh, I completely agree with you, I was just annoyed at all the posts claiming that the bear is somehow incredibly intelligent and has developed a sense of altruism and complex morality.
On August 12 2011 16:52 neoghaleon55 wrote: God! What is it with these assholes and being a dick to animals. If you want to use it's stuff than fucking kill it already! Fucking chinese! I'm ashamed to be one. My parents tell me stories like these that I never want to hear. Like how villagers would chop off half a fish at the right angle so that it'll barely survive...that way you can save it for later meals. Fucking retarded animal cruelty.
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
On August 12 2011 16:42 Empyrean wrote: A lofty goal. The government can't do anything to the entrenchment of traditional Chinese belief. The majority of China's population is poorly educated and cling very tightly to traditional beliefs.
We got rid of most of the quackery in America over the last century the same way...it takes a while, but it's more certain. Superstition tends to die fast when science comes around.
I'm not saying that it'll get rid of all of it, but it permanently reduces it.
It's actually incredibly hard to articulate my entire line of thought, but traditional Chinese beliefs have been entrenched in the collective psyche for millennia, and I highly doubt that the government's going to do away with them, even among a small portion of the population. Traditional beliefs come with the idea of China's inherent superiority to other cultures, and traditional medicine is widely considered to be a useful line of inquiry, parallel or even superior to modern medicine.
Like...I can't explain it. You're never going to get rid of these beliefs in a large segment of the population.
The same thing is starting to happen to Korea and has been happening to Japan...they still use traditional stuff, but they've thrown away a lot of the counterproductive and useless remedies over the last few decades. And it's not like they don't have millennia of culture...admittedly, most of it derived from China.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Empyrean wrote: Oh, I completely agree with you, I was just annoyed at all the posts claiming that the bear is somehow incredibly intelligent and has developed a sense of altruism and complex morality.
Actually, altruism is a trait selected for by evolution in almost every organism, from bacteria to humans (I literally mean bacteria). Intelligence really isn't necessary for altruism, though it certainly increases its complexity.
On August 12 2011 16:42 Empyrean wrote: A lofty goal. The government can't do anything to the entrenchment of traditional Chinese belief. The majority of China's population is poorly educated and cling very tightly to traditional beliefs.
We got rid of most of the quackery in America over the last century the same way...it takes a while, but it's more certain. Superstition tends to die fast when science comes around.
I'm not saying that it'll get rid of all of it, but it permanently reduces it.
It's actually incredibly hard to articulate my entire line of thought, but traditional Chinese beliefs have been entrenched in the collective psyche for millennia, and I highly doubt that the government's going to do away with them, even among a small portion of the population. Traditional beliefs come with the idea of China's inherent superiority to other cultures, and traditional medicine is widely considered to be a useful line of inquiry, parallel or even superior to modern medicine.
Like...I can't explain it. You're never going to get rid of these beliefs in a large segment of the population.
The same thing is starting to happen to Korea and has been happening to Japan...they still use traditional stuff, but they've thrown away a lot of the counterproductive and useless remedies over the last few decades. And it's not like they don't have millennia of culture...admittedly, most of it derived from China.
On August 12 2011 15:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Sigh. So fking sad. Chinese ppl stop doing this . I know animal cruelty happens in tons of areas of agriculture, but it always just makes me fking sad. Wish all agriculture used humane practices, even though that's mostly an empty gesture too.
Mmmhm, good job making an asshole of yourself by saying it's only China doing it. I can say, "American ppl stop murdering cows and pigs."
Hahaha, wow you must not know me at all.
Lol, the only reason I quoted you on that was because you directed all the hate and abuse TOWARDS Chinese people.
There is a difference between raising cows in an open pasture with tons of food, water, and sex before killing them in old age for our own survival, and trapping bears in cages smaller than they are while doing surgery without anesthesia then letting the bear live in excruciating pain for the rest of its life.
Hell, had this bear not been trapped in his cage he would be out there murdering other furry creatures for her own.
Is this REALLY how you guys raise cows? Really? If so, Im impressed by Canada.
I mean yeah we kill them, but they still lead a full and carefree life before then.
Please don't delude yourself that this is how all, or even the majority, of Canadian livestock is treated. Most Canadian livestock is raised in the same way that most American livestock is: in factory settings on an industrial scale.
This is atleast how they do it here in Alberta anyway, we've had rules in place about most livestock for years. Your average cow lives 10-15 years, all but about a 100 days in a pasture, the last 100 has them drugged up eating as much as possible.
Due note that while it says "reccomended code" it is pretty well universally followed as the tax breaks you get for passing inspections is more than worth it from what I understand. Especially since the vast majority of Canadian farming in general is done by small family farms. It isn't like we don't have an excess of land available.
I never heard of this before, this is crazy. The bear was probably crazy and killed itself+cub, but wow....can't imagine living with a fucking hole in the side of my stomach and having it become infected and shit...
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Do we have reason to think that it works?
- A causal mechanism that makes sense given what we currently know (i.e. current medical science) - Any good experimental evidence regarding its efficacy
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Do we have reason to think that it works?
- A causal mechanism that makes sense given what we currently know (i.e. current medical science) - Any good experimental evidence regarding its efficacy
I don't think a case has been made for acupuncture's effectiveness other than the placebo effect in clinical double blind trials.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
Do we have reason to think that it works?
- A causal mechanism that makes sense given what we currently know (i.e. current medical science) - Any good experimental evidence regarding its efficacy
Before people post studies, I'm going to jump in real fast and request that the studies be carried out by a large research or government affiliated institution, double-blind, placebo-controlled, with good experimental design.
Studies "proving" the efficacy of acupuncture abound on the web. They're just often bunk.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
You've been trolled sir, the only proper response is to not reply.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
It's absolutely comparable, do you know what happens in the factories? Pretty much same thing to the bear. Cramped, shitty living conditions, tortured at times killed slow etc etc.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
Come on man, you were trolled.
By the way.
Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
You've been trolled sir, the only proper response is to not reply.
I wasn't certain whether or not it was the case, and it may or may not be. I've met people that argue just like that poster in real life, so as abstract as it may seem to most people that have any sympathy at all, its possible. so why not respond.
Edit: Ok seeing his follow up post he's obviously trolling. Wasn't aware that was so acceptable at tl.
the troll can laugh all he wants at his successful troll or whatever, I don't really care. The sad thing is that there are real people with that point of view.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
It's absolutely comparable, do you know what happens in the factories? Pretty much same thing to the bear. Cramped, shitty living conditions, tortured at times killed slow etc etc.
"However, it is believed more than 12,000 bile bears are kept on farms in China, Vietnam and South Korea for the purpose of harvesting ursodeoxycholic acid. Ursodeoxycholic acid is found in large quantities in bear bile." That's a lot of bears . . I wouldn't have guessed that it's happening in South Korea too. Poor bears ... That said, I think people should realize it's not just China doing this. A lot of shit needs to change around the world.
On August 12 2011 17:10 Misanthrophic13 wrote: By the way.
Some Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Fixed.
ALL human lives are more precious man, even the dirtiest scum in arkham asylum is more important then that bear.
Just want to say that i disagree with you. I would easily 'trade' some scumbag molester or rapists life for animals life. I don't give a fuck about those who does horrible things to other human beings. i.e murder, rape and all that shit.
All cases son. To consider another animal as greater than your species is paramount to mutiny.
There might be a connection between certain species and our own survival running congruently but as a general answer to your question.. yes. almost always. and its important.
On August 12 2011 17:19 Rebel_lion wrote: All cases son. To consider another animal as greater than your species is paramount to mutiny.
There might be a connection between certain species and our own survival running congruently but as a general answer to your question.. yes. almost always. and its important.
There. Human life is not, in all cases, more "valuable" than animal life.
By the way, I think the question is stupid to begin with. What's the metric by which we're measuring value?
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
Come on man, you were trolled.
By the way.
Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Your name tells me you are trolling? Either way, I feel better valueing human beings along side animals. I kill annoying bugs, I fish etc, its not the killing that is mistreating animals, its when we are responsible for their entire lifes, that it would be better if we treated them with equal respect as humans.
So yes, I am saying, killing is perfectly fine, but treating them when they are alive should be of high quality.
Other higher-level thought processes of humans, such as self-awareness, rationality, and sapience, are considered to be defining features of what constitutes a "person."
Other higher-level thought processes of humans, such as self-awareness, rationality, and sapience, are considered to be defining features of what constitutes a "person."
What about high-intelligence animals such as chimpanzees or bonobos? Certainly they're self-aware, rational, and sapient as well? Are they more "people" than a profoundly mentally retarded human?
On August 12 2011 17:10 Misanthrophic13 wrote: By the way.
Some Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Fixed.
ALL human lives are more precious man, even the dirtiest scum in arkham asylum is more important then that bear.
I find the lives of some invertebrates and even microbes to be more precious to me than some humans. To me, they serve a greater purpose to the World than many humans do, because they are actually doing something intrinsically productive.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
Come on man, you were trolled.
By the way.
Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Your name tells me you are trolling? Either way, I feel better valueing human beings along side animals. I kill annoying bugs, I fish etc, its not the killing that is mistreating animals, its when we are responsible for their entire lifes, that it would be better if we treated them with equal respect as humans.
So yes, I am saying, killing is perfectly fine, but treating them when they are alive should be of high quality.
Greed. In China, the wholesale price of Bear Bile is around 4000 yuan (approximately $580) per kilogram. I have a pet dog who has been in the family for 7 years, god forbid, if my family had run out of resources, I would not hesitate to kill him to feed my family. Call me callous.
On August 12 2011 17:10 Misanthrophic13 wrote: By the way.
Some Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Fixed.
ALL human lives are more precious man, even the dirtiest scum in arkham asylum is more important then that bear.
Just want to say that i disagree with you. I would easily 'trade' some scumbag molester or rapists life for animals life. I don't give a fuck about those who does horrible things to other human beings. i.e murder, rape and all that shit.
Yeah, might sound cold but that is how i think.
Yes it does sound cold. A rapist child molesters life is equal value of ours. When you direct hatred towards other humans, it only fuels your mind with fear(hate). You do not know what that child molester did, or experience. People are driven to insanity and commit suicide, people do crazy things, but hating them is simply not a good solution for yourself.
What did Ghandi say to a man who confessed he killed a little kid from another religion? He said, find a homeless/parentless boy about his same age, raise him as your own, but with the kids religion. This increases growth in us and is different then just judging them as scumbags who are lesser values of.. everything.
On August 12 2011 16:57 Kamais_Ookin wrote: I support the Chinese on this 110%
Who gives a fuck about animals feelings, only thing that's important is it's bile to make medicine for us humans. Also anyone who doesn't support this must be a vegetarian, please don't eat meat because farms are torture to animals as well your being unfair to the chickens and cows.
Oh I'm a vegetarian, and I definitely agree that there are plenty of hypocritical people arguing about this sort of thing to a certain degree. However in the end it isn't as comparable as you think, Having a life of torture and dying from disease, or just pain etc is hardly the same as living alive in a field for a long time then being slaughtered. Sure as a vegetarian I disagree with both but they definitely don't fall under the same umbrella.
Come on man, you were trolled.
By the way.
Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Your name tells me you are trolling? Either way, I feel better valueing human beings along side animals. I kill annoying bugs, I fish etc, its not the killing that is mistreating animals, its when we are responsible for their entire lifes, that it would be better if we treated them with equal respect as humans.
So yes, I am saying, killing is perfectly fine, but treating them when they are alive should be of high quality.
Greed. In China, the wholesale price of Bear Bile is around 4000 yuan (approximately $580) per kilogram. I have a pet dog who has been in the family for 7 years, god forbid, if my family had run out of resources, I would not hesitate to kill him to feed my family. Call me callous.
There is NOTHING wrong in killing, but you most likely would never mistreat the family dog. I would also kill the dog.
What good is a bear? What good is your average human? I would hope the metric is success to the human species. This is the height of preponderance though, as it eschews vary many values and practices in human society.
We have to measure against our own survival. Then we have to measure against our needs and wants. Then we have to measure against the needs and wants of everybody else. cattle easy beef, comes in as an undefeated heavy weight and i willn't disparage those who consume. On a micro level the same can be said for the backwards CTM people who still feed this practice.
Can a biologist tell me, if animals are capable of such thinking? I don't think I've ever heard a story like this where a mother would kill its child so it doesn't need to suffer anymore and then ran into a wall to kill itself (wtf).
On August 12 2011 17:10 Misanthrophic13 wrote: By the way.
Some Human life is more precious than animal life, to say otherwise is lunacy.
Fixed.
ALL human lives are more precious man, even the dirtiest scum in arkham asylum is more important then that bear.
Just want to say that i disagree with you. I would easily 'trade' some scumbag molester or rapists life for animals life. I don't give a fuck about those who does horrible things to other human beings. i.e murder, rape and all that shit.
Yeah, might sound cold but that is how i think.
A rapist child molesters life is equal value of ours.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
On August 12 2011 17:38 Empyrean wrote: It's more likely that it was driven insane from the torture and inadvertently killed the cub.
EDIT: I'm not a biologist, but come on now, this just makes more sense :/
well that's what I think, but the news seems to suggest otherwise (or maybe trying to be sensationalist)
Unable to free the cub from its restraints, the mother hugged the cub and eventually strangled it.
It then dropped the cub and ran head-first into a wall, killing itself.
I know there are animals which kill their cubs if they are ill/infected/somehow physically disabled but I'm sure it's not because they want to spare them from suffering thinking death will be better for them.
I think its possible that the bear could kill its cub, but the mother bear killing itself with driving its head into the wall. I think its a bit hard to comprehend.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
nope Animals are treated if they are sick, are fed, and least around here, arent locked up 24 per 7. I realize there are lots of cases when the conditions arent good, but still let s be realistic this is far too extreme.
On August 12 2011 17:38 Empyrean wrote: It's more likely that it was driven insane from the torture and inadvertently killed the cub.
EDIT: I'm not a biologist, but come on now, this just makes more sense :/
This is ofcourse very possible but as always when discussing animals (or small children) thoughts we just dont have a clue. That´s why it´s so silly to say that for instance monkeys are stupid. Sure, they probably are pretty stupid but there is a possibility that they just dont really feel like showing off hehe. Extreme example but you get my point.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
On August 12 2011 15:59 nalgene wrote: That "heat" thing is actually more ingrained in their language... since they always use the word "hot"+"air" or something... whenever they talk about things relating to fried food of any sort...
Yes, and it has little basis in physical fact.
Not condoning this at all, but after reading the thread, i just find it annoying people keep attacking the chinese/ chinese medicine culture. As for the many people stating the chinese saying"hot air" is utter crap. As far as i know, the "hot air" term refers to having to many free radicals in your body from eating refined foods etc or "high heat", which is indeed harmful to your health. and the remedies for this is to consume foods that "lower heat" aka foods rich in antioxidants which inhibit free radical production. I think its just a lack of actual biological understanding of many chinese people, so they cant explain it. But the principles and practices actually make sense.
Frankly, this kind of thing just makes me want to blow my brains out, humans are the most disgusting, violent animals on the earth, i am truly ashamed that our minds can think of things like this, torturing animals/people, is truly unbelievable and makes me sick to my stomach, we are the ones ruining this planet. am i wrong?
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
We were born to be omnivores. That's how I'll continue living my life. Killing cows for their beef and what they did to this bear is 100% different stories and shouldn't be argued in the same thread.
On August 12 2011 16:52 neoghaleon55 wrote: God! What is it with these assholes and being a dick to animals. If you want to use it's stuff than fucking kill it already! Fucking chinese! I'm ashamed to be one. My parents tell me stories like these that I never want to hear. Like how villagers would chop off half a fish at the right angle so that it'll barely survive...that way you can save it for later meals. Fucking retarded animal cruelty.
Yea, its easy to take a piss out of them when you're in a first world country. Most of what these stories are meant to get across is that China has gone through hard times, and people were forced to live in really bad circumstances.
Your story about the fish- what if they did not have adequate refrigeration and very little food? You catch two fish, one now, one later. Of course, I am assuming many things about what your parents said but the fact of the matter is hard times force people to make hard decisions.
This is fucking insane. I don't understand how these people live with themselves, seriously.. heartless bastards. Also so much more amazing/depressing when the animal understands the situation and understands death as an escape (if it's true of course).
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
First of all, how CAN I bitch at a bear? Secondly, the bear IS in a life and death situation, we are not. THIRDLY, just because one species is immoral doesnt mean that ours should be?
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
First of all, how CAN I bitch at a bear? Secondly, the bear IS in a life and death situation, we are not. THIRDLY, just because one species is immoral doesnt mean that ours should be?
There's so much wrong with this post. A bear is not starving to death when it decides to eat meat. It's no more life and death then when a person eats meat. The bear, like the person, is hungry at the time and meat is available. To say when animals eat meat it's life or death, but when a person does it's different, is disingenuous at best.
Also, just because one species is immoral? You mean all the omnivorous species out there right? There's a lot more then one, and that you would call a non-sentient animal 'immoral' is laughable. IMO, the idea that eating meat in general is immoral is laughable. Treat the animals well and give them a quick death and there's nothing immoral about. It's way better then being stalked by a cougar and then being strangled to death while you panic in fear.
@neoghaleon55 They don't kill the bears because they are using their bile for cures and by killing the bear, you can't milk them every day (It does seem like a very brutal procedure but it's just something they do)
I do not condone this procedure and find that this story is really, really sad.
That being said, I figure these things are quite normal in the Chinese culture as from what I know, chinese medicine is a bit weird and a lot different than what we have in the West. A lot of the people making comments that sound like "These people are heartless" and "They should be ashamed of what they are doing" but they need to realize that these people need to make a living and China is an impoverished state and they have to do something to support themselves. Not only that but our cultures are much different than theirs and who are we to judge them (for example they can eat dogs and we keep them as pets)?
Basically, my point is that people should understand that people who do things like this are not heartless (well not all of them at least) but that the things they do in their lives are normal to them and is just their way of making a living.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
First of all, how CAN I bitch at a bear? Secondly, the bear IS in a life and death situation, we are not. THIRDLY, just because one species is immoral doesnt mean that ours should be?
There's so much wrong with this post. A bear is not starving to death when it decides to eat meat. It's no more life and death then when a person eats meat. The bear, like the person, is hungry at the time and meat is available. To say when animals eat meat it's life or death, but when a person does it's different, is disingenuous at best.
Also, just because one species is immoral? You mean all the omnivorous species out there right? There's a lot more then one, and that you would call a non-sentient animal 'immoral' is laughable. IMO, the idea that eating meat in general is immoral is laughable. Treat the animals well and give them a quick death and there's nothing immoral about. It's way better then being stalked by a cougar and then being strangled to death while you panic in fear.
Not to mention I am sure a bear could eat berries or honey, or something not meat if it really wanted to.
Living things eat living things. It is how the world works.
Can we not have a vegetarian argument here? start a new thread if it means that much to either side.
This farm is clearly against morallity, torturing animals for some mumbo-jumbo BS. I don't care if people practice superstitious crap as long as it isn't hurting anyone. It is here. The farm needs to be shut down.
On August 12 2011 19:24 StarBrift wrote: Torturing animals for some superstitious vodoo shit that is clearly doesnt work in reality. The peoples of this world are so fucking stupid.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
First of all, how CAN I bitch at a bear? Secondly, the bear IS in a life and death situation, we are not. THIRDLY, just because one species is immoral doesnt mean that ours should be?
There's so much wrong with this post. A bear is not starving to death when it decides to eat meat. It's no more life and death then when a person eats meat. The bear, like the person, is hungry at the time and meat is available. To say when animals eat meat it's life or death, but when a person does it's different, is disingenuous at best.
Also, just because one species is immoral? You mean all the omnivorous species out there right? There's a lot more then one, and that you would call a non-sentient animal 'immoral' is laughable. IMO, the idea that eating meat in general is immoral is laughable. Treat the animals well and give them a quick death and there's nothing immoral about. It's way better then being stalked by a cougar and then being strangled to death while you panic in fear.
Once again, since I dont feel that my english is good enough to actually have an intelligent discussion without making myself and my cause look retarded I refrain from the discussion. However I do hope you read the book "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer and watch this video. A man who not only is more moral than me but also a lot smarter.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
How is this relevant to the op? Chicken farmers trim beaks to prevent cannibalism, which I agree is the product of animal cruelty, but the op opens up a discussion about a bear's sense of altruism that is comparable to ours.
On August 12 2011 19:16 wussleeQ wrote: @neoghaleon55 They don't kill the bears because they are using their bile for cures and by killing the bear, you can't milk them every day (It does seem like a very brutal procedure but it's just something they do)
I do not condone this procedure and find that this story is really, really sad.
That being said, I figure these things are quite normal in the Chinese culture as from what I know, chinese medicine is a bit weird and a lot different than what we have in the West. A lot of the people making comments that sound like "These people are heartless" and "They should be ashamed of what they are doing" but they need to realize that these people need to make a living and China is an impoverished state and they have to do something to support themselves. Not only that but our cultures are much different than theirs and who are we to judge them (for example they can eat dogs and we keep them as pets)?
Basically, my point is that people should understand that people who do things like this are not heartless (well not all of them at least) but that the things they do in their lives are normal to them and is just their way of making a living.
Dont play the culture card. I'm so sick of being told to accept this crap because we are westeners and 'we dont understand their culture'. Fuck their culture if they do stuff like this. Its not an excuse to commit animal cruelty.
As for being an impoverished state I do understand, life cannot be easy and yes they do have to support themselves. I don't think its right to place the blame of the workers themselves; rather at the idiots who claims this is a legimate method and supports it.
Assuming this article is accurate (in its account of what the mother bear did), that's amazing. Granted, I've read stories of altruistic and morally-profound animals on other occasions, but it gets me every time.
And yes, there's a difference between raising animals in a healthy, domesticated environment for them to be used as our food, and stealing them from the wild or abusing them once they're caged. It's simply not the case that raising animals for their products automatically equates to animal cruelty. They can potentially live good lives.
The story seems a little far-fetched, to me at least. Trying to picture the bear killing another bear to release it from pain and suffering just doesn't comply here. Perhaps it ran into a wall trying to escape instead of killing itself?
Now, on the topic of animal cruelty, because that's pretty much what this thread has turned into. I absolutely agree that it does seem very inhumane. On the other hand I understand that animal testing and various experiments are necessary for our survival, I don't think there's much difference between milking a cow and inserting a syringe full of potentially unsafe drugs into a rat.
2. Someone come up with a succinct argument as to why the torture and harvesting of poultry, cows, pigs, fish, etc., is different to the torture and harvesting of bears, monkeys, turtles, dogs, cats, <insert anything else that people deem "cute">.
3. If you don't believe Western societies torture animals in a similar way, look up how you get foie gras.
4. Firstly, most practitioners of Chinese medicine are against using controversial traditional ingredients. The minority who do by choice. They don't have to use those specific ingredients, just as you don't have to eat chicken. The point being that, despite some saying that meat is a necessity for mankind, chicken is not. Why not eat the meat bearing creature that suffers the least? Why not restrict the entire human consumption of meat to just beef for example?
5. I don't see why people are shocked to discover that animals have emotions, and can act on them. A gorilla used sign language to describe his mother being shot as he watched. Humans are animals, we are different in the sense that we are a different species. We don't consider that animals share such similarities with us because the vast majority of people don't want to think about it.
On August 12 2011 19:24 StarBrift wrote: Torturing animals for some superstitious vodoo shit that is clearly doesnt work in reality. The peoples of this world are so fucking stupid.
This kind of post infuriates me because it's completely devoid of logic and irrelevant to the issue at hand.
What is the problem at hand? Torturing animals for the sake of superstitious voodoo bullshit, you say. First, the Chinese people using it disagree. You respond that science proves it's bullshit (which it doesn't, actually. Read Emp's posts in this thread) which leads me to the crux of the problem in your post.
The problem is not that they are torturing animals for the sake of superstitious voodoo bullshit. The problem is that they are torturing animals. If it turned out bear bile had an incredibly important and unique property, lending itself to provide the cure for cancer, is torturing animals then not a problem?
I'd wager most of you will say yes. Human life more valuable than bear life, etc. That's fine, it's a judgement call. Now, what if bear bile contained properties which could only aid something more mild, such as arthritis and joint damage or reverse the effects of osteoporosis? Then is it worth farming and torturing them? That leads us back to reality. A horrible practice is taking place, for the sake of slight medicinal value.
StarBrift, your argument, and the argument of many people in this thread, is contingent on the consequence of the action, when the action itself is inherently horrible and disgusting.
Looking at those inhumane pictures makes me cry alone. WOW absolutely sad. More painful than anything i can imagine, when the only road is to kill yourself which is the ultimate sacrifice, everything is wrong.
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
Most animals you eat have been tortured and kept in cages before landing on your plate. That's the big deal. If we were only a few millions of hunter-gatherers across the globe, there would be nothing wrong with eating animals. Unfortunately that's not the case.
There are still moral problems with meat eating at a small scale though. Why does an animal deserve to die? Why do we need to eat meat when we can eaqually easily live off a plant based diet nowadays?
The only time I can say that I feel that eating meat is morally justifiable is in a live or die situation, but hell. If I was in one of those I would eat human aswell.
I don't understand this arguement.
Vegitarians never bitch about a Bear eating a Rabbit, why do they bitch when I eat a Cow?
First of all, how CAN I bitch at a bear? Secondly, the bear IS in a life and death situation, we are not. THIRDLY, just because one species is immoral doesnt mean that ours should be?
There's so much wrong with this post. A bear is not starving to death when it decides to eat meat. It's no more life and death then when a person eats meat. The bear, like the person, is hungry at the time and meat is available. To say when animals eat meat it's life or death, but when a person does it's different, is disingenuous at best.
Also, just because one species is immoral? You mean all the omnivorous species out there right? There's a lot more then one, and that you would call a non-sentient animal 'immoral' is laughable. IMO, the idea that eating meat in general is immoral is laughable. Treat the animals well and give them a quick death and there's nothing immoral about. It's way better then being stalked by a cougar and then being strangled to death while you panic in fear.
Once again, since I dont feel that my english is good enough to actually have an intelligent discussion without making myself and my cause look retarded I refrain from the discussion. However I do hope you read the book "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer and watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU A man who not only is more moral than me but also a lot smarter.
And with that I´m done with the offtopic!
Thanks for this. good video, might have to check out the book as well.
First post! and it's in a thread about BEARS!... Though unfortunately it's about bears that are suffering.
A couple thoughts: What sense does bashing the Chinese, or traditional Chinese medicine make? It's the Chinese media reporting on this thus they also think the practice is abhorrent and are working to try to change it.
As for the bears acting in a "human" manner, I think it should be fairly obvious that the connection is most probably non-existent but is being played up to stir up more public outrage. If bears actually possessed these "human" qualities there would be much more evidence than just this one example to back it up.
I don't think people using animals as a resource is inherently evil. In fact in this case, if the harvesting of the bile were done in a more humane manner there would be less ethical issues with it than using animals for food, since the bears wouldn't be killed.
This is really saddening to hear. Then again, the Chinese can do w/e the fuck they want in their turf. Not like their government or anyone would care to intervene.
On August 12 2011 20:21 raviy wrote: most practitioners of Chinese medicine are against using controversial traditional ingredients. The minority who do by choice.
OP is silly... No. Bears do not have self-aware sentience just because one bear killed itself. As for killing the cub, it sounds as though the mother was just trying to free it, but killed it. Lemmings run off cliffs all the time. We should infer from this that they have read too much Chaucer and believe paradise truly is lost and the only way to save it is to fly.....
Thanks for sharing the news story though.
Very very doubtful that the bear ran into a wall with intention of inflicting self-harm, rather, it was kept in a cage its whole life and was very unfamiliar with the whole concept of running and object permanence in the first place. It hit the wall and died. It was a messed up bear. Farmer's fault. End of story. Let's attempt not to personify animals because of this.
Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
We're no better in how we treat food animals though.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
We're no better in how we treat food animals though.
What makes bears or cats or dogs so different?
Didn't I just say I don't care whether it's a dog or a cow? I know for a fact that the animals here are treated much better than in practically all of asia, and that the west in general has tighter restrictions on how you farm animals.
Maybe this instance of drilling holes in animals and keeping them alive is actually illegal, I sure hope it is.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
On August 12 2011 21:22 Crushgroove wrote: OP is silly... No. Bears do not have self-aware sentience just because one bear killed itself. As for killing the cub, it sounds as though the mother was just trying to free it, but killed it. Lemmings run off cliffs all the time. We should infer from this that they have read too much Chaucer and believe paradise truly is lost and the only way to save it is to fly.....
Thanks for sharing the news story though.
Very very doubtful that the bear ran into a wall with intention of inflicting self-harm, rather, it was kept in a cage its whole life and was very unfamiliar with the whole concept of running and object permanence in the first place. It hit the wall and died. It was a messed up bear. Farmer's fault. End of story. Let's attempt not to personify animals because of this.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
Omg!! Swedish people have no regard for life! Their inhumanity just makes me so sick and so angry!
lol there's been so much debate around this in sweden you wouldn't believe it. Two thirds of swedes oppose fur farming in general and thinks it should be illegalized.
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
bro, human people are just cruel and fucked up in general.
On August 12 2011 21:22 Crushgroove wrote: OP is silly... No. Bears do not have self-aware sentience just because one bear killed itself. As for killing the cub, it sounds as though the mother was just trying to free it, but killed it. Lemmings run off cliffs all the time. We should infer from this that they have read too much Chaucer and believe paradise truly is lost and the only way to save it is to fly.....
Thanks for sharing the news story though.
Very very doubtful that the bear ran into a wall with intention of inflicting self-harm, rather, it was kept in a cage its whole life and was very unfamiliar with the whole concept of running and object permanence in the first place. It hit the wall and died. It was a messed up bear. Farmer's fault. End of story. Let's attempt not to personify animals because of this.
Lemmings do not run off cliffs.
Well they do unless you have one of them go on traffic cop mode,
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
We're no better in how we treat food animals though.
Heres a link to a Dutch website which rates countries in terms of animal cruelty. No its not in english, but im sure you can figure out which countries are which.
On August 12 2011 14:53 travis wrote: Bears have very thick skulls. I doubt it could run into a wall and kill itself.
That said, is what is attested to here actually legal?
A healthy bear has a nice thick skull
For this bear, Its very possible its bone structure was very weak at that point because of malnourishment. As well as other conditions that may have resulted because of the head trauma.
People making these racist generalizations about the Chinese are starting to get to me. Comments exactly like "Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life." are turning this thread into complete shit as I am very offended by this seeing as how I'm a Chinese American. Keep the races out of this please as a lot of these comments that sound like this add nothing to the conversation and pisses others off.
On August 12 2011 21:41 Supamang wrote: Heres a link to a Dutch website which rates countries in terms of animal cruelty. No its not in english, but im sure you can figure out which countries are which.
Itll be a surprise to like 50% of the posters in this thread, but China isnt even top 10
No wonder Greece is first in that list... Most ppl in agricultural areas / villages are animals themselves so the "law of the jungle" still applies....
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
We're no better in how we treat food animals though.
What makes bears or cats or dogs so different?
Didn't I just say I don't care whether it's a dog or a cow? I know for a fact that the animals here are treated much better than in practically all of asia, and that the west in general has tighter restrictions on how you farm animals.
Maybe this instance of drilling holes in animals and keeping them alive is actually illegal, I sure hope it is.
Actually on some farms They have a hole drilled into the cows stomach, you can read online the purpose. But the Animial has a "plug" to keep it from getting infected. And the farmers are very aware that having it open can cause infections.
On August 12 2011 21:22 Crushgroove wrote: OP is silly... No. Bears do not have self-aware sentience just because one bear killed itself. As for killing the cub, it sounds as though the mother was just trying to free it, but killed it. Lemmings run off cliffs all the time. We should infer from this that they have read too much Chaucer and believe paradise truly is lost and the only way to save it is to fly.....
Thanks for sharing the news story though.
Very very doubtful that the bear ran into a wall with intention of inflicting self-harm, rather, it was kept in a cage its whole life and was very unfamiliar with the whole concept of running and object permanence in the first place. It hit the wall and died. It was a messed up bear. Farmer's fault. End of story. Let's attempt not to personify animals because of this.
Pain is pain is pain.
I would believe that many vertebrates share a comparable levels of distress. A bear is a highly developed animal, it seems plausable to say that we could ascribe it, at least in some capacities, a higher functioning that some human infants, or persons with mental disabilities. I don't think sentience is an on/off switch, rather a sliding scale trailing towards full conscious awareness. Pain however is most likely a lower order function of the brain, something intrinsic to vertebrates for its utility.
I personally think we should map awareness and experience of pain (as best we can) as components of the individual, not simply ascribe a blanket judgment across species. If it is found that animals experience similar levels of distress when in these conditions, then ethically we must seriously consider if practice such as this (battery farming etc) are acceptable in society.
On August 12 2011 21:22 hifriend wrote: Wow that's fucked up. Someone's going to hate me for this I guess but why is it that asian cultures so often have no regard what so ever for treating animals in a humane fashion? I don't care whether it's a bear, dog, cat, cow or a pig it's just a really messed up way of treating other living beings. Makes me sick to my stomach tbh.
Western cultures were at that level once before, though. Let's just say western culture is at level 10 in animal compassion, whereas the asian cultures are still level 3. They'll get to level 10 too someday after some grinding.
On August 12 2011 21:47 wussleeQ wrote: People making these racist generalizations about the Chinese are starting to get to me. Comments exactly like "Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life." are turning this thread into complete shit as I am very offended by this seeing as how I'm a Chinese American. Keep the races out of this please as a lot of these comments that sound like this add nothing to the conversation and pisses others off.
Amen to that brother. I'm also a Chinese immigrant and let me just say that this kind of shit is actually in the extreme minority. Most of the ignorant comments posted here are probably from people who's never even been to China and all they read about is the negative news stories that get published. I'm not trying to spread some communist progaganda bullshit here, but the majority of Chinese people are just ordinary people going about their business. I actually had a chat to a Taiwanese friend of mine who's family business is Traditional Chinese Medicine, and he's horrified this is still done.
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
Such an ignorant statement.
Explain?
And no saying other parts of the world have animal cruelty as well (which unfortunately is very true) does not disregard my comment.
On August 12 2011 14:53 micronesia wrote: Tragic story of animal cruelty, of course.
But also it sounds amazing the way the bear behaved... if this is true it makes me rethink how animal behaviour works.
when i first saw the thread i had that feeling of my mind being opened to a greater truth of animal behavior but when i read they killed themselves out of severe, consistent and unhealing pain, it's certainly interesting but not out of the realm of understanding i already had.
as far as the actual topic goes, there is animal cruelty all over the world but asian countries really disgust the fuck out of me with the extent that they take it, almost like they take pride in it.
edit: apparently there's crazy racism going on in the thread, so i guess i should clarify and say that of the minority of people that do this, in asian countries, the sick fucks take it to a bizarre level of cruelty. compared to other countries, what i've seen in asia is crazier.
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
Such an ignorant statement.
Explain?
And no saying other parts of the world have animal cruelty as well (which unfortunately is very true) does not disregard my comment.
Hello capitalism and globalization.
It's ignorant to single out the Chinese in this regard and even more ignorant to generalize the entire race. Last I checked the animals that went extinct were...well you got to do some of the work...
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
If there isn't proper human rights, what do you think?
And not to forget, this same shit is happening in Korea and other Asian countries. Said pages ago.
The story is kinda sad, but I'm really shocked by the bear's actions. I never knew that bears or other animals could contemplate euthansia/suicide. Really shows me at least how little I know.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
when I read China I kinda figured where this is going (Asia in general are a little crazy on the whole "efficiency" thing when "farming stuff")
for those that argue against bears having self awareness to some degree then can you counter OP how it was stated that the bears wear iron vest to "prevent the bears killing themselves?"
imo i dont think chickens are smart enough to go kill themselves.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
This is somewhat true, except the practices are illegal here and are cracked down on daily. Slaughterhouses found to be inhumane are closed down, dog fighting rings are certainly shutdown, etc....it's just, I still think the punishment even over here in the US for animal cruelty is not strong enough.
Is it even illegal in China to torture animals? Anybody know the laws over there in specific?
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Normally I don't defend the mainland when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I think the wrong word is racist. I would simply say that these kind of "outrage" threads (which I lump in with political threads) breeds mob-thinking. You take one story, and stereotype an entire nation of over 1 billion people because of one story. Do you have any idea how silly this kind of thinking is?
How would you feel if we found an unsavory article about the Netherlands and then assumed that "all Netherland residents must be the same, think the same, act the same"?
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
Well if it's true, it's true... can find many examples as well.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
I agree that they do have a long ways to go in human and animal rights but I was quoting Technique's post because of this earlier post
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
Which I, personally think is a very racist thing to say by generalizing my race as heartless.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
Well if it's true, it's true... can find many examples as well.
It bothers me that so many people are shocked/appalled at this; are you not reading news like this every other week? I know this stuff is reprehensible but it's hardly shocking to me any more. It's as if people have never heard of such cruelty, when I almost see it as the norm in news stories these days.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
Well if it's true, it's true... can find many examples as well.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
I agree that they do have a long ways to go in human and animal rights but I was quoting Technique's post because of this earlier post
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
Which I, personally think is a very racist thing to say by generalizing my race as heartless.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
Well if it's true, it's true... can find many examples as well.
So according to your logic, I'm a babykilling, bear bile collecting murderer?
Edit: I'm done getting trolled.
I don't know you and i don't think every1 is like this, but i do think people in China do not speak up for what they believe is not right... hence why many of the animal testing is drawn to China... hardly any1 is protesting against it over there... and if people do protest it's shut down and won't get in the news.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
That was actually pretty hard to read, It was really depressing. I got chills reading about their cramped spaces Poor bears they are so cool. T___T RIP
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
I agree that they do have a long ways to go in human and animal rights but I was quoting Technique's post because of this earlier post
On August 12 2011 21:23 Technique wrote: Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
Which I, personally think is a very racist thing to say by generalizing my race as heartless.
On August 12 2011 23:19 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the "chinese" have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist. that seems to be something that you're overlooking.
Well if it's true, it's true... can find many examples as well.
So according to your logic, I'm a babykilling, bear bile collecting murderer?
Edit: I'm done getting trolled.
I don't know you and i don't think every1 is like this, but i do think people in China do not speak up for what they believe is not right... hence why many of the animal testing is drawn to China... hardly any1 is protesting against it over there... and if people do protest it's shut down and won't get in the news.
I think you're overestimating China's level of development. Animal cruelty is the least of the issues of an average Chinese citizen.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
Because it shows a country supports the inhumane action rather than condemning it. That makes a world of difference in how the people of said country views the action. They are encouraged to do stuff like this.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
Because it shows a country supports the inhumane action rather than condemning it. That makes a world of difference in how the people of said country views the action. They are encouraged to do stuff like this.
It's not they are "encouraged to do stuff like this," but rather that this is their only method of making money. I'm not saying that I don't wish there were laws against animal rights violations, but you have to realize that if the Chinese government were to impose laws against animal torture then tens of millions of people would instantly lose their livelihood.
EVERYBODY on the web (as in, Chinese sites) condemns inhumane animal treatment, but there's a reason (albeit a pretty "meh" one) that there aren't many animal rights laws.
On August 12 2011 22:59 Deadlyhazard wrote: It's always stories like this that come from China. Do they not have animal cruelty laws there? I'm guessing not.
Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote: [quote] Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote: [quote] Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote: [quote] Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
see my response to deadlyhazard; most of these protests are on big chinese news forums
also, sorry Nyovne, i'll leave this topic forever ^^
Mammals are all very caring and have strong emotions for one another. That is why we are able to have animals like dogs live with us unrestrained, while other types of animals have to be controlled in order to be kept as pets. I believe these actions from the bear because it is easily what a person may do in a similar situation.
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote: [quote] Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote: [quote] Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
There is a fundamental difference between cultures here. Chinese people like handling problems like this internally, for better or for worse. They don't want to flaunt it for the whole world to see and discuss. It's just the way they like to handle their problems. You can say it's good or bad one way or another, but it's just how it is. Just because you don't hear about it or read about it doesn't mean the population does not care.
Very different than how Western societies deal with their problems of a similar nature.
What's infinitely more disgusting is the fact that whenever something like this happens liberals never miss an opportunity to attempt to send people on guilt trips about eating meat and to bash fast food corporations. Even though almost all of them couldn't care less about things like meat consumption or animal cruelty and only pretend to do so in an attempt to make themselves look superior to others, which is their main and only ethos, constant inflation or the ego with complete disregard for things like common sense or objective facts.
I'll just ignore the fact that complaints about "western" animal cruelty most of the times quickly boil down to bashing fast food franchises exclusively as if they were the first, last and only people ever kill something for food. I won't go too much into why vegetarianism is highly impractical at best and highly retarded at worst. In a nutshell, all organisms, to some degree, feel. Feel free to watch the plethora of documentaries explaining how plants have a pseudo nervous systems and react when being damaged by releasing chemicals and all that stuff. If your goal is attaining food without making anything suffer and if you're eating anything other then soil, then you're either a moron or a hypocrite.
People aren't mad because "bears are cute", people are mad because this is a completely nonsensical thing to do. Stuff like tiger balls and snake blood is entirely bollocks, the only reason why people have the illusion that it works is that the vendors often times secretly sprinkle the respective organ with real medicine so that it has the desired effect when ingested. The only thing they're doing is contributing to the extinction of already endangered species, something that will contribute to the degeneration of the ecosystem, which is something that will eventually bite us in the ass in the long run.
But I suppose that this, and countless other acts of savagery that "developing" nations commit, are "part of their culture" and therefor should be permitted with extreme prejudice. I dread the day when anything short of not letting a non white person come to your house and fuck your sister will be considered bigotry.
On August 13 2011 00:07 blahblahblahwhatever wrote: What's infinitely more disgusting is the fact that whenever something like this happens liberals never miss an opportunity to attempt to send people on guilt trips about eating meat and to bash fast food corporations. Even though almost all of them couldn't care less about things like meat consumption or animal cruelty and only pretend to do so in an attempt to make themselves look superior to others, which is their main and only ethos, constant inflation or the ego with complete disregard for things like common sense or objective facts.
I'll just ignore the fact that complaints about "western" animal cruelty most of the times quickly boil down to bashing fast food franchises exclusively as if they were the first, last and only people ever kill something for food. I won't go too much into why vegetarianism is highly impractical at best and highly retarded at worst. In a nutshell, all organisms, to some degree, feel. Feel free to watch the plethora of documentaries explaining how plants have a pseudo nervous systems and react when being damaged by releasing chemicals and all that stuff. If your goal is attaining food without making anything suffer and if you're eating anything other then soil, then you're either a moron or a hypocrite.
People aren't mad because "bears are cute", people are mad because this is a completely nonsensical thing to do. Stuff like tiger balls and snake blood is entirely bollocks, the only reason why people have the illusion that it works is that the vendors often times secretly sprinkle the respective organ with real medicine so that it has the desired effect when ingested. The only thing they're doing is contributing to the extinction of already endangered species, something that will contribute to the degeneration of the ecosystem, which is something that will eventually bite us in the ass in the long run.
But I suppose that this, and countless other acts of savagery that "developing" nations commit, are "part of their culture" and therefor should be permitted with extreme prejudice. I dread the day when anything short of not letting a non white person come to your house and fuck your sister will be considered bigotry.
Dude, stop talking please. Don't you see the huge note on top of the thread? Just drop the cruelty discussion.
There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
On August 13 2011 00:07 blahblahblahwhatever wrote: But I suppose that this, and countless other acts of savagery that "developing" nations commit, are "part of their culture" and therefor should be permitted with extreme prejudice. I dread the day when anything short of not letting a non white person come to your house and fuck your sister will be considered bigotry.
I think it is ok to kill a animal so it can be eaten, if the animal in question had a decent life without to much stress then the amount of suffering caused by killing the animal will be acceptable to me. We live in a rather cruel universe were life feeds on life after all.
But letting a creature suffer in agony with constant wounds in a cage so small that it cannot move for the duration of it's life is disgusting. I do not believe the benefits of using the gall bladder acids as medicine (no matter if it works or if it is just a placebo) weighs up to immense amounts of suffering it gives to these bears.Just look at the pictures of it in this thread and look at the eyes of the bears that are alive and caged, you can see what they are thinking and feeling reflected in those eyes.
Even in Europe they have goose and ducks that are fed a kilo of corn with a funnel each day so their liver swells up causing internal wounds, bone fractures and infections, but hey the mass of people likes to buy pate around Christmas time. Greed will blind people for the feelings of other creatures and the ignorance of the masses that buy these products sustains this sort of evil (from my moral view at least) all around the world.
“Brutality to an animal is cruelty to mankind - it is only the difference in the victim”. Alphonse de Lamartine.
On August 13 2011 00:19 KevinBacon wrote: Hi i am chinese and i am ok with animal torture so that people don't loose their jobs.
If you are Chinese, then idk maybe you mean that. But considering your portugese tag, hey man, chill off with the racism. All Chinese people like to torture animals? Seriously?
Respect for bears +1. I don't know if it was maddened with rage and so attacked, or actually knew what it was doing, but if it did know, that is one kick ass bear.
On August 13 2011 00:22 Daniri wrote: Why even have this topic if we can't discuss animal treatment? It's like the entire point of the story.
Well, dat dere bear has hissinself a hard noggin! Ahyuck!
Actually, if you look at what the OP posted under the story, he wants to discuss the bear's actions. How did it know to go and kill the cub and how did she know that it would put it out of it's misery.
Killing and animal and eating it is morally debatable, but torturing an animal for the rest of its life for some shitty remedy that isn't even life saving? These people are monsters.
On August 13 2011 00:36 CuttyFlam wrote: My god .. this really disgusts me.. Is that shit legal in China? even for them this seems a bridge too far... God how can people do that??
Can a bear die just from running into a wall, considering that she was also tired thus i don't believe she could reach a very high speed. That said meh.. i hardly pity this animals, they brought our specie to almost extinction about 50k years ago... we have the decency to let there species alive at least ( and im not referring to bears only, im referring to all types of predators that would eat us on a daily basic before we learned to craft weapons ). As for the bear realizing she can kill itself/ the cub so that they escape a miserable life... meh thats pretty smart o.o... maybe proof animals are evolving ? maybe they were always this smart and we never knew ?... I hope is the last one ( and believe it is )... kind amazing n.w.
On August 12 2011 23:50 Olsson wrote: Fucking retarded trolls coming in:
"Hurp-duurr well KFC chickens are treated like this and nothing is written." "Dog fighting is illegal but this is crueler so we cant compare the 2."
Uhh, maybe you're the troll because you don't get the point? The point is not to generalize the whole animal cruelty incidents towards China and Chinese people..
On August 13 2011 00:26 iuvenalis wrote: Fuck China. Motherfuckers eating cats, dogs, killing every animal, including Tiges
Fuck Europe motherfuckers kill cows/pigs to eat them ... this is how some ppl from India/Arabia will look at you... is a cultural difference between the stuff we eat thats all... honestly i will try to get a bite of dog grill when i get there IF i get there ... that ofc if the local tell me is actually good <.<
On August 13 2011 00:26 iuvenalis wrote: Fuck China. Motherfuckers eating cats, dogs, killing every animal, including Tiges
Fuck Europe motherfuckers kill cows/pigs to eat them ... this is how some ppl from India/Arabia will look at you... is a cultural difference between the stuff we eat thats all... honestly i will try to get a bite of dog grill when i get there IF i get there ... that ofc if the local tell me is actually good <.<
Meh, dog is pretty generic, not gunna lie. You're better off trying alligator.
Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
On August 13 2011 00:26 iuvenalis wrote: Fuck China. Motherfuckers eating cats, dogs, killing every animal, including Tiges and torturing them as well.
How about fuck Japan too. Motherfuckers kill whales and sharks and shit.
Seriously tho, what is wrong with you. It's not even an issue relating to China, how about broadening your way of looking at things, maybe it's a problem with human beings in general? Cruelty to animals don't just happen in China.
I think most people are missing the big point about this article. Its not about animal cruelty, its about the extent of emotional/rational thinking that animals can employ, the animal cruelty part of the article is merely the tipping point, in triggering the bear's reaction.
The fundamental error of these anti-torture arguments here is that they misunderstand what torture is. Torture is action with the ends of hurting someone. Harvesting bile does not have this ends, its ends is profit. And neither has any type of animal husbandry torture as an ends, hence the argument for this kind of animal husbandry being torture is incorrect, as it is a red herring.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
Come on man, I'm not a vegetarian or anything but just because I'm not actively standing up for animal rights doesn't mean that I'm not sickened by it. This is the kind of thing that actually needs to change; KFC is a fast food joint and this is animal torture. How do the two compare?
I eat meat and I'm not changing that, but just because I do doesn't mean that someone can go all high and mighty on me and people with similar views just because we do. I'm not allowed to be saddened by this because I enjoy a bucket of KFC chicken from time to time? That's broken logic. =/
They compare because animal husbandry is slavery. And slavery is torture. The action of preventing someone from acting according to their desires is torture. Keeping animal in a free range or in a tight cage, both fundamentally employ slavery.
A lot of people here that don't realize / aren't willing to admit that everyone's life in some way is pretty much evil. We're all here typing on computers that cost a good amount of money while people are starving to death, we spend money on ourselves for entertainment when we could use that money to save people.
Whether there's something incredibly wrong with that is up to people to decide. I personally don't want to devote my life to saving others but I realize that I'm making that choice. Many people consider themselves a "good person" and there's varying degrees of evil but in the end the vast majority of us put our own happiness before less fortunate people's survival.
Why does it matter? Because if you can't see how you yourself fall short while yelling at others to change you cannot see your own hypocrisy.
This is a pretty good example, while what is happening to these bears is terrible do you ever think about how meat used to be a luxury? How do you think meat became so widely available to developed countries for a relatively cheap price? The fact is many animals raised for mass production meat will be kept in ways that are basically torture and drive the animals insane.
At the same time if you buy meat that's raised humanely / organically you are spending a higher amount of money to get quality meat when there are starving people. It's not like we HAVE to eat meat, it's not even cost efficient for the amount of resources it takes to get a pound of meat. You are willingly eating a relatively expensive food when there are people that can't even get gruel. That people think that isn't in some way evil is laughable.
You can still get angry, complain, be shocked or whatever but people should realize their own evil before calling others out on theirs.
And yes, I eat meat, I rarely do charity work and I sleep just fine like most everyone.
animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
There is nothing wrong with animals living in captivity, being raised for human consumption. What should be the case though is the animals should not be tortured while they live. At least I can eat meat with good conscience because animal rights are relatively highly regarded in Iceland.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Travis, even if it has a thick skull, it doesn't mean it crack its own skull. A bear can weigh over 1.5k lbs, that kind of momentum being slugged along behind a bear going full speed could crush a car.
On August 12 2011 19:24 StarBrift wrote: Torturing animals for some superstitious vodoo shit that is clearly doesnt work in reality. The peoples of this world are so fucking stupid.
You understand that much of modern medicine comes from testing on animals. We wouldn't survive as well as we do now without subjecting animals to "torture".
Here's a couple points:
1. There's a difference between torture and animal testing. 2. If the story is true, it seems like animal cruelty to me more than medicine, but I don't know enough about the situation. 3. Animals are largely meant to be eaten in the wild, so the issue many vegetarians state they have with eating meat is actually an issue with the corporatization of food. 4. Bears are cuddly looking and middle-class folks with bleeding hearts want to care about something cute. 5. Considering most animals don't have the intelligence for analyzing their situation, I question the assumption a bear could commit suicide.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
evidence for what? i had multiple points, at least say which one...
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
evidence for what? i had multiple points, at least say which one...
The fact that bears and other animals of reasonable conciousness are kept in this kind of captivity, is disgraceful, however you seem to jump to unwarranted conclusions regarding the intent of this bear.
I find it more likely that the bear became crazy due to the torture it received and when it heard its cub's scream and instinctively broke lose and went to its aid, where it, due to mental issues, accidentally killed the cub and then ran into the wall.
At people who say everyone who is not vegan and gets discusted by this are hypocrits.
Man you guys sure are incapable of drawing a line. I find nothing wrong with myself that I ate an egg today that came from a chiken in a farm, but I do not accept bears handeled that way or animal testing, or how americans like to skin their animals alive. I am not a hypocrite saying taht. You can give me any case of animal handling and i can you is it rigth or wrong, in a black and white world.
I feel that too many people are going into this thread just looking for an argument, not really caring about the topic at hand, but more about being right. This kind of mindset is counter productive, and does not actually contribute in any way shape or form. I also recomend doing some research before posting, so you dont sound like a complete idiot. And to viewers like you, thank you.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
evidence for what? i had multiple points, at least say which one...
The bolded part? :o
an interior motive of thought for suicide is required for it to even become an idea. how can an animal that has less intelligence than a toddler even form thoughts of suicide as an idea to even end its suffering? evidence should not be needed, logic alone should be enough...
by disagreeing with me you are saying that animals have enough intellect for this? bullshit, wheres your evidence?
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Normally I agree with your posts, but this is pretty silly. There are ALOT of things that have been around for thousands of years that I don't think you'd really agree are legitimate.
What about acupuncture? Is it nonsense?
one case doesn't justify the other. That's why we go by science. Everything is tested for truth.
I don't believe the bear consciously mercy killed it's baby. Most creatures just cannot think on such a level. Next we'll need evidence that the sky is blue.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
evidence for what? i had multiple points, at least say which one...
The bolded part? :o
an interior motive of thought for suicide is required for it to even become an idea. how can an animal that has less intelligence than a toddler even form thoughts of suicide as an idea to even end its suffering? evidence should not be needed, logic alone should be enough...
by disagreeing with me you are saying that animals have enough intellect for this? bullshit, wheres your evidence?
1. All it needs to realize is that it's suffering and wants to die. It doesn't need to even "think" to want to die. 2. Evidence in this story. 3. I never claimed anything, by disagreeing I never said animals have enough intellect for this, that's you jumping to conclusions, something you're apparently good at. I have no idea, which is why I'm not making blanket statements.
The source looks pretty reputable, so I don't have any reason to believe this isn't true. Animals are certainly capable of all sorts of deviant behaviors, including cruelty, cannibalism, and suicide. The level of understanding necessary though, to be able to make an inference ("my cub is going to suffer") based on one's own experiences, and then make a conscious moral decision about that inference ("it is better for my cub to die than suffer") is truly outstanding, and I'm guessing that most animals would not be capable of it in the same situation. Still, it shows the great potential for animals, and how much smarter they are than we give them credit for.
On August 13 2011 01:56 Ravencruiser wrote: As touching as the story is, "hugged the cub and then strangled it".
Come the fuck on.
Hey, I was once told that a puppy I was going to get died because its mother sat on it. The real question is whether or not the bear purposefully killed the cub, or whether it was just trying to protect it/help it.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
evidence for what? i had multiple points, at least say which one...
The bolded part? :o
an interior motive of thought for suicide is required for it to even become an idea. how can an animal that has less intelligence than a toddler even form thoughts of suicide as an idea to even end its suffering? evidence should not be needed, logic alone should be enough...
by disagreeing with me you are saying that animals have enough intellect for this? bullshit, wheres your evidence?
1. All it needs to realize is that it's suffering and wants to die. It doesn't need to even "think" to want to die. 2. Evidence in this story. 3. I never claimed anything, by disagreeing I never said animals have enough intellect for this, that's you jumping to conclusions, something you're apparently good at. I have no idea, which is why I'm not making blanket statements.
realizing that it is suffering and wants to die requires a conscience and level of intelligence that animals do not have.
there is no evidence in the story for the bears actually commiting suicide, its like saying jesus' miracles were true because they are written in the bibles.
i think before i answer, i dont jump to conclusions.
I'm guessing that the mother bear was extremely stressed out at that point in time. I don't think that the mother would realize that her cub was going to experience the same torment, hence invoking the thought process that resulted in her killing her own cub in order to stop that from happening.
What simply happened was the mother bear ran over to the cub while being very protective instinctively, but actually killed the cub by accident while it was experiencing pent up frustration + mental stress.
Mothers killing cubs by accident do happen all the time. Panda bears do swipe at their own newborn if it was their first childbirth out of anxiety, and do end up killing them sometimes.
I don't have an explanation for the suicide afterwards, but I will attribute it to the fear of going through the pain again. It does seem extremely tragic from our perspective because we would easily empathize if it were 2 humans in that situation (i.e. we would infer that the mother will kill her own child in order to stop that child's suffering). It is kind of weird but I think it's fortunate that the mother bear didn't get to rationalize that thought.
People read into things what they want. The guy who reported this incident already thought what was going on was terrible.
I imagine what was actually seen was a grown bear escape it's cage, and go on a mild rampage, killing a cub with a 'bear crush' not a hug, and ultimately killing it's self by running into a wall as it attempted to run away from the staff truing to round it up.
"Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance." I'm really not sure what to say to that... especially because that's what I want to do, lol. It really is very sad that this happened, and I hope this happening gets fully closed down.
Really sad to hear about the bear, I hate it when such animals are treated in this way. What really makes me sad are these "tiger farms" that are in operation. There's a huge market in China for tiger bones and tiger skins used in alternative medicine or to just be kept as a trophy. What a shame to see such beautiful animals reduced to living in a cage and being starved for it's whole life. This stuff really makes me sick.
On August 13 2011 02:05 muse5187 wrote: I don't believe the bear consciously mercy killed it's baby. Most creatures just cannot think on such a level. Next we'll need evidence that the sky is blue.
This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
This is a consequentialist argument against the concept of slavery being torture. Consequentialism is irrelevant when it comes to action in the present, hence it is unusable as a moral guide.
I don't understand how these people live with themselves, seriously.. heartless bastards.
This is so fucked up. I hate these people and if there was any justice I really hope they get what they deserve. Fuck their culture if they do stuff like this. Its not an excuse to commit animal cruelty.
china, what a suprise
This is really saddening to hear. Then again, the Chinese can do w/e the fuck they want in their turf. Not like their government or anyone would care to intervene.
Its china.. doesn't surprise me one bit
Chinese have no respect for animals at all, that's pretty much a fact... hell they hardly have any respect for human life.
This is what happens in a communist state...Fucking disgusting people.
SERIOUSLY? If you replaced China/Chinese with South Korea(n) would there not be bans or warnings? The fact that the word China exists in the thread's title automatically means that people will judge and base their replies on previous sentiments(usually bad) towards China and the Chinese people. As I've said before, it's not just China doing this.
On August 13 2011 02:05 muse5187 wrote: I don't believe the bear consciously mercy killed it's baby. Most creatures just cannot think on such a level. Next we'll need evidence that the sky is blue.
The sky is actually not blue...
The sky spends an awful lot of time being blue, therefor it is blue. It doesn't matter what makes it blue, it is fucking blue.
This is so fucked up. I hate these people and if there was any justice I really hope they get what they deserve. Fuck their culture if they do stuff like this. Its not an excuse to commit animal cruelty.
This is really saddening to hear. Then again, the Chinese can do w/e the fuck they want in their turf. Not like their government or anyone would care to intervene.
This is what happens in a communist state...Fucking disgusting people.
SERIOUSLY? If you replaced China/Chinese with South Korea(n) would there not be bans or warnings? The fact that the word China exists in the thread's title automatically means that people will judge and base their replies on previous sentiments(usually bad) towards China and the Chinese people. As I've said before, it's not just China doing this.
The"funny"thing is, that this is apparently happening in South-Korea and other countries of Asia too.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
as it is really sad when animals die/get tortured, I think people are making a large mistake instantly attributing the murder suicide "omg the bear was sad and didnt want its child to have a life of pain" humanization.. animals very often do things that humans mistake for human traits. for example otters holding hands to make it easier to float rather then <3 <3 omg they are in love!
anyways, we are also talking about an animal that eats its young if unfit to live, and also have a very short temper. It seems more likely that the bear lost its temper and killed its cub and then managed to accidently kill itself.
On August 13 2011 01:00 xarthaz wrote: Uhh, chicken eggs? And cow milk? Face it, in essence they all employ animal slavery.
The argument to support western animal farming is the differentiation of slavery and torture. It is claimed that while animals are slaves, that because no torture is used it is humane to keep them in such conditions.
But this is blatantly contradictory, as torture cannot be differentiated from slavery. In essence, being the property of someone else is torture. Preventing action of the slave is an action of torture, just like an action of punishment is torture.
On August 12 2011 16:46 Sworn wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it. P
Differences is the chickens are killed usually within a couple weeks not kept alive to be repeatedly harvested. Killing an animal and keeping one alive in extreme pain is very different.
It depends on the degree. Sure, you can consider it "torture" to lock a human up in prison for life with some pretty shitty treatment. But compare that to putting him in a constant state of excruciating pain... completely different.
Difference is like being locked away in Azkaban and becoming miserable to deatheaters (but also growing more numb the longer you're there), and being locked away in Azkaban and being constantly subject to the Crucio curse... c'mon... what's worse here...
On August 13 2011 01:29 CptCutter wrote: animals do not carry the intelligence for suicide. the bears wear iron vests to stop them from killing themselves? thats true but the reason is more likely that they want to stop the pain so poke at the wound simply because it hurts rather than trying to kill themselves.
stuff like this makes me very sad, how people with intelligence as low as this can do this to animals is amazing. at times, it makes me think that idiots(literal sense) must be psychopaths if they can do it.
Bullshit where's your evidence for this?
This is a consequentialist argument against the concept of slavery being torture. Consequentialism is irrelevant when it comes to action in the present, hence it is unusable as a moral guide.
I see, it wasn't exactly addressing your point. Although I don't buy your argument that being the property of something else constitutes torture with animals.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
And even then, alternatives to bear bile have been taking root.
Still, this is really disgusting and saddening. But wow, for the mother bear to have that kind of intelligent grasp of the situation is really impressive. Shows how much we DON'T know.
This is so fucked up. I hate these people and if there was any justice I really hope they get what they deserve. Fuck their culture if they do stuff like this. Its not an excuse to commit animal cruelty.
This is really saddening to hear. Then again, the Chinese can do w/e the fuck they want in their turf. Not like their government or anyone would care to intervene.
This is what happens in a communist state...Fucking disgusting people.
SERIOUSLY? If you replaced China/Chinese with South Korea(n) would there not be bans or warnings? The fact that the word China exists in the thread's title automatically means that people will judge and base their replies on previous sentiments(usually bad) towards China and the Chinese people. As I've said before, it's not just China doing this.
Would you please give me an example of a country that does something this cruel? More specifically, one that does so openly? Maybe something like this happens in the U.S or Australia, etc. But when the public finds out about these kind of things they don't let it fly. But in China the government and many of the people couldn't give a flying fuck.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
Capitalism doesn't really have checks and balances... that's called regulation, which is seen as anti-capitalist...
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
Capitalism doesn't really have checks and balances... that's called regulation, which is seen as anti-capitalist...
He's trying to make the point that consumers can't discriminate of what type of product they buy, which is wrong. China is just as driven by consumer demand as any other country, they just have huge subsidies/govt protection on business seen as important.
On August 13 2011 03:06 JasinAli wrote: The bears are fitted with an iron vest, as they often try to kill themselves by hitting their stomach as they are unable to bear the pain.
On August 13 2011 03:06 JasinAli wrote: The bears are fitted with an iron vest, as they often try to kill themselves by hitting their stomach as they are unable to bear the pain.
On August 13 2011 03:06 JasinAli wrote: The bears are fitted with an iron vest, as they often try to kill themselves by hitting their stomach as they are unable to bear the pain.
On August 13 2011 03:06 JasinAli wrote: The bears are fitted with an iron vest, as they often try to kill themselves by hitting their stomach as they are unable to bear the pain.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
Capitalism doesn't really have checks and balances... that's called regulation, which is seen as anti-capitalist...
He's trying to make the point that consumers can't discriminate of what type of product they buy, which is wrong. China is just as driven by consumer demand as any other country, they just have huge subsidies/govt protection on business seen as important.
Oh geez. You don't know a know about government. Capitalism has many checks and balances. The U.S government has many. True laissez faire capitalism doesn't, but nowhere on earth do we have this kind of pure capitalism. Just as we don't have a pure communist state. Modern day checks and balances are very common.
Anyways, Myles I wasn't getting at the point that the public can't choose what they buy, I was getting at the point that they don't have the power to get something like this shut down, at least not like Modern countries.
On August 13 2011 02:41 Rebornlife wrote: This is what happens in a communist state. With no public opinion this kind of cruelty won't be stopped. Sure animals such as chickens and cows go through some tough times when they are being killed for food, but nothing like this. Fucking disgusting people.
You should learn about factory farming. It has nothing to do with communism and everything to do with capitalism. They're trying to produce the stuff at the lowest costs, which generally involves not paying for stuff to improve 'living' conditions.
As far as this specific bear, I find it very unlikely this was a conscious decision based on mercy or suicide. It was a panicked and confused bear trying to save it's cub and itself - and getting killed in the process. Animals do stupid stuff like that all the time.
But what I'm saying is under communism this factory farming can thrive without any subjection. All the government cares about is money, and so they do whatever they want to make the most profits. They don't have the checks and balances that come with capitalism, because in China the public has no power.
Capitalism doesn't really have checks and balances... that's called regulation, which is seen as anti-capitalist...
He's trying to make the point that consumers can't discriminate of what type of product they buy, which is wrong. China is just as driven by consumer demand as any other country, they just have huge subsidies/govt protection on business seen as important.
Oh geez. You don't know a know about government. Capitalism has many checks and balances. The U.S government has many. True laissez faire capitalism doesn't, but nowhere on earth do we have this kind of pure capitalism. Just as we don't have a pure communist state. Modern day checks and balances are very common.
Anyways, Myles I wasn't getting at the point that the public can't choose what they buy, I was getting at the point that they don't have the power to get something like this shut down, at least not like Modern countries.
... How much more hypocritical can you possibly get in two sentence?
Also, Capitalism/Communism has absolutely nothing to do with animal rights you fucking mongoloids. This is why I hate political threads on TL, half you guys don't even know the difference between forms of government and economy.
That's heartbraking. But the mother did the right thing for both herself and the cub. What a hero.
Im an animal lover and animal abusers is the one thing i hate most in this world. Animals are defenseless against humans. We should know better than to treat animals the way we do.
I would gladly lock the people up who is responsible for this in the smallest cage i can find for a human and put an iron suite on them + handcuffs so they can't kill themselves and then stick a BIG needle in their body whenever i feel like it. Let's see how they like that.
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
On August 13 2011 03:38 darkscream wrote: Why is it always China doing horrible shit?
Also, Capitalism/Communism has absolutely nothing to do with animal rights you fucking mongoloids. This is why I hate political threads on TL, half you guys don't even know the difference between forms of government and economy.
Sorry for the suffering of the bears.
China = getting stronger and stronger economically = getting more and more media coverage
Edit:
On August 13 2011 03:44 JohnnyReverb wrote: why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
On August 13 2011 00:11 absalom86 wrote: There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
Thats one of the most disturbing things i have ever seen, makes me wonder what kind of monster can do this for a living. If there was such thing in my country i am sure me and many other ppl wouldnt rest untill it was shut down but the fucking chinese are just a joke when it comes to animal rights.
On August 13 2011 00:11 absalom86 wrote: There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
Thats one of the most disturbing things i have ever seen, makes me wonder what kind of monster can do this for a living. If there was such thing in my country i am sure me and many other ppl wouldnt rest untill it was shut down but the fucking chinese are just a joke when it comes to animal rights.
Animal rights need to be improved in many places, not just in China.
On August 13 2011 03:53 Blasterion wrote: Because europeans bashing asian coumtries on a european site is totally a right thing to do
Not sure how you could defend China on something like this and what this has to do with "Europeans?" The only thing I can see is blind nationalism coming from you. There is no excuse for this at all... it's disgusting. Even Jackie Chan doesn't agree. He's not European is he?
If this were happening in Europe, North America.... anywhere with a decent government not only would there be massive outrage but it also would be shut down instantly. YES we kill pigs, cows, chickens for food but we don't slowly extract their juices from them over a course of 10 years for a medicine that has alternatives.
On August 13 2011 03:53 Blasterion wrote: Because europeans bashing asian coumtries on a european site is totally a right thing to do
We bash what needs to be bashed you know what i said is true your country is a joke when it comes to animal rights civil rights aswell but thats another story and i am a sensitive guy when it comes to animal torture i should have never opened this thread now i am pissed off. I can honestly say that if a bear farm was operating in my country and the government wouldn't shut it down someone would just grab a gun and solve the problem by their own hands when it comes to china i don't know if people over there are just fine with this or if they are just cowards.
On August 13 2011 03:53 Blasterion wrote: Because europeans bashing asian coumtries on a european site is totally a right thing to do
Not sure how you could defend China on something like this and what this has to do with "Europeans?" The only thing I can see is blind nationalism coming from you. There is no excuse for this at all... it's disgusting. Even Jackie Chan doesn't agree. He's not European is he?
If this were happening in Europe, North America.... anywhere with a decent government not only would there be massive outrage but it also would be shut down instantly. YES we kill pigs, cows, chickens for food but we don't slowly extract their juices from them over a course of 10 years for a medicine that has alternatives.
Never thought what they did was right. Just saying what you Europeans are doing for what it is
On August 13 2011 00:11 absalom86 wrote: There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
Thats one of the most disturbing things i have ever seen, makes me wonder what kind of monster can do this for a living. If there was such thing in my country i am sure me and many other ppl wouldnt rest untill it was shut down but the fucking chinese are just a joke when it comes to animal rights.
So are you currently planning to do anything against slaughterhouses run by large corporations? Those are pretty abundant here in the West. What about several cosmetic and clothing brands who also treat animals cruelly, except they do so to feed consumers' superficial needs rather than for medical reasons.
Seriously get real and take your racist, knee-jerk opinions elsewhere? The fact that you draw this conclusion from a sensationalist 1 minute 30 second youtube video is even more hilarious.
I'm not defending this, but don't put yourself on a pedastel and assume animal cruelty is exclusive only to China.
This is seriously fucked up. I really do not understand how people can get up in the morning and work a day in one of these farms without realising that what they are doing is fucking wrong. Every single person that works there, especially whoever is in charge, should be locked and up and forgotten about.
On August 13 2011 04:06 Inori wrote: How can you "leave the animal rights and treatment discussion out of this topic." when it's exactly about it?
I mean, yes, the fact that mother bear kills her cub/herself is heart breaking, but the real problem here that should be discussed and hopefully got as much attention as possible is the reason why she did this - the treatment they had to suffer through due to lack of animal right.
The bear bile farming is seriously fucked up and should be banned ASAP.
On August 13 2011 04:06 Inori wrote: How can you "leave the animal rights and treatment discussion out of this topic." when it's exactly about it?
I mean, yes, the fact that mother bear kills her cub/herself is heart breaking, but the real problem here that should be discussed and hopefully got as much attention as possible is the reason why she did this - the treatment they had to suffer through due to lack of animal right.
The bear bile farming is seriously fucked up and should be banned ASAP.
Because based on the OP, the discussion is more whether or not the mother bear consciously killed her cub out of compassion, and then killed herself to escape the conditions OR if the bear was just on a rampage and was killed out of some circumstance that did not imply suicide.
On August 13 2011 00:11 absalom86 wrote: There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
Thats one of the most disturbing things i have ever seen, makes me wonder what kind of monster can do this for a living. If there was such thing in my country i am sure me and many other ppl wouldnt rest untill it was shut down but the fucking chinese are just a joke when it comes to animal rights.
So are you currently planning to do anything against slaughterhouses run by large corporations? Those are pretty abundant here in the West. What about several cosmetic and clothing brands who also treat animals cruelly, except they do so to feed consumers' superficial needs rather than for medical reasons.
Seriously get real and take your racist, knee-jerk opinions elsewhere? The fact that you draw this conclusion from a sensationalist 1 minute 30 second youtube video is even more hilarious.
I'm not defending this, but don't put yourself on a pedastel and assume animal cruelty is exclusive only to China.
Cant you understand the difference between a legal slaughterhouse and this madness or you just want to make the easy and usual argument? You actually understand the amount of pain this bears suffer cannot be compared to the pain suffered by animals from a legal slaughterhouse and you understand this bear bilis is not needed at all right? Now i know there are some slaughterhouses that dont respect regulations but thats something the general public cannot control and thats when i like to believe my government is doing his job by doing regular inspections.
I'm a firm believer that a few strips of Bacon could be used as an alternative medicine instead bear bile. And I'm sure it's 1000x more delicious as well. Also, no animals are hurt in the creation of Bacon, as it is grown on trees in heaven... or that's my understanding of it at least.
On August 13 2011 04:03 KevinBacon wrote: We bash what needs to be bashed you know what i said is true your country is a joke when it comes to animal rights civil rights aswell but thats another story and i am a sensitive guy when it comes to animal torture i should have never opened this thread now i am pissed off. I can honestly say that if a bear farm was operating in my country and the government wouldn't shut it down someone would just grab a gun and solve the problem by their own hands when it comes to china i don't know if people over there are just fine with this or if they are just cowards.
I'm sorry, but what gives you the right to judge 1.3 billion people as cowards Mr. Holier-than-thou?
On August 13 2011 03:53 Blasterion wrote: Because europeans bashing asian coumtries on a european site is totally a right thing to do
We bash what needs to be bashed you know what i said is true your country is a joke when it comes to animal rights civil rights aswell but thats another story and i am a sensitive guy when it comes to animal torture i should have never opened this thread now i am pissed off. I can honestly say that if a bear farm was operating in my country and the government wouldn't shut it down someone would just grab a gun and solve the problem by their own hands when it comes to china i don't know if people over there are just fine with this or if they are just cowards.
Killing people over animals....doing lives of your kins mean nothing to you? I mean at least these people only torturing animals, compared to you who is out for blood of people
I really request a mod to close this thread, It had just turned into culture bashing. This is so aggravating to watch people bash a country because they do what they do and have been doing. IT'S LIFE GET OVER IT. Discuss how its wrong and share your sympathy, but rants like this degenerate
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
make me angry. Sure you temp banned him, but it shouldn't even come to that point where it happens.
On August 13 2011 05:59 HikariPrime wrote: I really request a mod to close this thread, It had just turned into culture bashing. This is so aggravating to watch people bash a country because they do what they do and have been doing. IT'S LIFE GET OVER IT. Discuss how its wrong and share your sympathy, but rants like this degenerate
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
make me angry. Sure you temp banned him, but it shouldn't even come to that point where it happens.
It's actually really easy to ignore them if you think of them as little Sarah Palins or Michelle Bachmanns running around spouting nonsense and generalizing without an ounce of logic.
On August 13 2011 05:59 HikariPrime wrote: I really request a mod to close this thread, It had just turned into culture bashing. This is so aggravating to watch people bash a country because they do what they do and have been doing. IT'S LIFE GET OVER IT. Discuss how its wrong and share your sympathy, but rants like this degenerate
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
make me angry. Sure you temp banned him, but it shouldn't even come to that point where it happens.
It's actually really easy to ignore them if you think of them as little Sarah Palins or Michelle Bachmanns running around spouting nonsense and generalizing without an ounce of logic.
That's me being passive aggressive.
Meh, Sounds like you are describing left wing liberalism...
"It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
On August 13 2011 05:59 HikariPrime wrote: I really request a mod to close this thread, It had just turned into culture bashing. This is so aggravating to watch people bash a country because they do what they do and have been doing. IT'S LIFE GET OVER IT. Discuss how its wrong and share your sympathy, but rants like this degenerate
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
make me angry. Sure you temp banned him, but it shouldn't even come to that point where it happens.
It's actually really easy to ignore them if you think of them as little Sarah Palins or Michelle Bachmanns running around spouting nonsense and generalizing without an ounce of logic.
That's me being passive aggressive.
Meh, Sounds like you are describing left wing liberalism...
I'm describing attributing anti-intellectualism to those people. Nothing to do with liberalism at all.
On August 12 2011 14:55 Equity213 wrote: They do this with chickens all over the world. They're kept in cages too small for them to move, and their beaks are cut off too or else they kill themselves with it.
Yeah but bears are cute
what they do with chickens is fucked up and wrong too.
everyday millions of chickens are killed, you eat 'em. cows are throat-sliced and hang to death, you have 'em in your burger. reptiles are skinned alive for leather wallets, you like 'em. ducks are tortured to produce better quality livers, you buy 'em. what makes 2 bears different?
is it legal to hold bears like this? is it legal to treat animals like this? i'll say yes. and it happens everywhere in the world
amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
I am not surprised that you americans butcher chickens pigs cows either, I mean KFC was invented in America right? But it's ok because it taste good so it's all good.
On August 13 2011 00:11 absalom86 wrote: There are some videos from these " farms "... it's absolutely inhumane and disgusting torture. The bears are locked up in a tiny cage from a young age and never let out, with a big hole in their side to extract the bile.
Thats one of the most disturbing things i have ever seen, makes me wonder what kind of monster can do this for a living. If there was such thing in my country i am sure me and many other ppl wouldnt rest untill it was shut down but the fucking chinese are just a joke when it comes to animal rights.
That is the worst thing I have ever seen done to animals. It is completely undefendable too since the "medication" doesn't even have an effect anyway. Disgusting.
where im from here in wisconsin.. farmers often keep little calfs in little cages to prevent them from moving to much.. just to kill the little calfs in just a short span* forget howlong* but point of doing it is soo the VEAL is a tiny bit moore tender. thats inhuman to.
On August 12 2011 23:07 Technique wrote: [quote] Very little rules yes and also very little protesters against stuff like animal testing, hence why animal testing is kinda drawn to China.
But of course if you make a comment about it, you are perceived racist, so funny.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:10 wussleeQ wrote: [quote] Saying that the chinese have little to no regard for human life can easily perceived as being racist.
A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
I'm a little lost as to why we shouldn't talk about animal rights here....isnt that what this post is about? are we not allowed to say anything other then "Well that sounds bad"?
Well that sounds bad. Bear Bile tastes pretty bad btw. Feel bad for bears.
But reading over the earlier posts it seems like the Jesuits (for a lack of a better word) really want to start picking a fight with us from all the thing they've said.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
On August 13 2011 05:59 HikariPrime wrote: I really request a mod to close this thread, It had just turned into culture bashing. This is so aggravating to watch people bash a country because they do what they do and have been doing. IT'S LIFE GET OVER IT. Discuss how its wrong and share your sympathy, but rants like this degenerate
why am i not surprized to see this act coming from china... ? actually, this bothers and upsets me more, than a terrorist, or a spreekiller.
there are just too much of those yellow/black people. 1 mrd in india, and 1.2 mrd in china.. we have to find a chemical solution for castrating their whole countries and stop their expansion. they are just too much.
make me angry. Sure you temp banned him, but it shouldn't even come to that point where it happens.
True. I'm more pissed off by the comments than by the video. Stuff like this always seem to happen.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem? Whatever the future may hold right now it seems like your country has it worse and you have ballz to bash mine, do you not see a problem here?
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
Because there is a disparity in the treatment of the situation...dog fighting goes on through the US, very little action until shit went down with Vick, farm animals treated inhumanely, nobody says anything until their own personal health is at risk. Don't be selective with your memory.
Like I wonder how the response would be if this happened elsewhere and didn't involve a bear (like a chicken instead).
To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
On August 12 2011 23:14 Deadlyhazard wrote: [quote] A little bit, but that's the way it seems to me. China has a looooooooooooong way to go before I respect them as a country concerning both human and animal rights. Not everyone in China is like that I'm sure, but they have such a grouped mentality that it seems like the majority don't care. Otherwise, there would be protesting.
There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
I am used to it, everytime something comes up it turns to something like this, really sucks to be Asian on a European website
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 12 2011 23:15 synapse wrote: [quote] To be certain, this story is absolutely sickening. But I do think that this "Chinese people are so inhumane" mentality has gotten the better of the entire Western world... you don't see sweeping generalizations about any other country's people when something unfortunate occurs there.
[quote] There is. All over the internet.
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
It always happens in animal rights/abuses threads. It brings out the racist/cultural warrior/raving hypocrite in many people.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:35 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:32 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:30 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:20 mustache wrote: [quote]
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
It always happens in animal rights/abuses threads. It brings out the racist/cultural warrior/raving hypocrite in many people.
*sigh
I guess I was hoping for TL to be a little different. I am still interested to know if what that bear did was out of self awareness or not. IDK why I am so damn intrigued but I really wanna discuss about this
not about MY FUCKING COUNTRY IS BETTER THEN YOURS CAUSE BLARGITY BLARGITY BLARG BLARG
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
It always happens in animal rights/abuses threads. It brings out the racist/cultural warrior/raving hypocrite in many people.
*sigh
I guess I was hoping for TL to be a little different. I am still interested to know if what that bear did was out of self awareness or not. IDK why I am so damn intrigued but I really wanna discuss about this
not about MY FUCKING COUNTRY IS BETTER THEN YOURS CAUSE BLARGITY BLARGITY BLARG BLARG
I wonder, I think it was out of self awareness. because that would be awesome
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:35 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:32 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:30 synapse wrote: [quote] Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:35 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:32 Technique wrote: [quote] But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
It always happens in animal rights/abuses threads. It brings out the racist/cultural warrior/raving hypocrite in many people.
*sigh
I guess I was hoping for TL to be a little different. I am still interested to know if what that bear did was out of self awareness or not. IDK why I am so damn intrigued but I really wanna discuss about this
not about MY FUCKING COUNTRY IS BETTER THEN YOURS CAUSE BLARGITY BLARGITY BLARG BLARG
I wonder, I think it was out of self awareness. because that would be awesome
I would like to think so cause this is an interesting event that took place.
if the bear was indeed a sentient being, then a lot of question will be answered/born. And I am really intrigued in this possibility
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:35 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:32 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:30 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:20 mustache wrote: [quote]
actually you always see sweeping generalizations about countries when something occurs there. Are you new to the web? or global news in general?
Really now. Did we call out Americans in general as inhumane for the whole dogfighting incident? I think not.
But dog fighting is illegal and torturing bears is apparently not, so how are you gonna compare the 2?
How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
Oh and Im a little confused. You have a problem with censorship in China and the lack of google, but you just posted a link that you probably just googled up. I hope you realize that theres no way to prove or disprove that China blocks enough negative news on its own country to make it hard to search for info on them, given that we live outside of China and can only search online.
And even so, within that article that you yourself posted, heres an interesting quote:
"Many of these laws are being challenged and currently rewritten to allow for better treatment of animals in The People’s Republic. Animal cruelty reforms currently under consideration are aimed at protecting pets, laboratory animals, and how farm animals are treated, moved, and killed for food."
So what happened to no one is doing anything about it in China? You also ignored the fact that the US is right there with China in that list too, but you seem to direct all your hate towards China. You obviously have some heavy biases and stereotypes that you just absolutely don't want to give up. Why cant you just look at the facts and use some logical reasoning and see that China isnt so much worse compared to the rest of the world? Yea, this bear bile stuff is terrible. Yea theres other animal cruelty issues in China as well, but dont even pretend that some bullshit on the same level isnt going on in many different parts of the world.
On August 13 2011 07:26 heroyi wrote: this thread got from amazing story to just retard culture bashing crap fest :/
so is anyone willing to get back on the thread and see if what the bear did was with self awareness....or are we gonna keep bashing on America and China and etc...
It always happens in animal rights/abuses threads. It brings out the racist/cultural warrior/raving hypocrite in many people.
*sigh
I guess I was hoping for TL to be a little different. I am still interested to know if what that bear did was out of self awareness or not. IDK why I am so damn intrigued but I really wanna discuss about this
not about MY FUCKING COUNTRY IS BETTER THEN YOURS CAUSE BLARGITY BLARGITY BLARG BLARG
I wonder, I think it was out of self awareness. because that would be awesome
I would like to think so cause this is an interesting event that took place.
if the bear was indeed a sentient being, then a lot of question will be answered/born. And I am really intrigued in this possibility
If we can prove the bear to be self-aware there can be alot of possibilties for the new ceiling of bestial intelligence. If they are self-aware there must be was to communicate with them, no matter how simple
The biggest joke is that this is all this abuse is for the sake of bullshit holistic medicine that does nothing. I mean, mistreating a stupid, domesticated animal shortly before you eat it is sort of understandable, although still undesirable. Take chickens, for example... I've owned chickens; they're stupid, fairly hopeless in the wild, and not very easy to sympathize with. And they taste great, because we've bred them for thousands of years to taste great. I don't really mind offing a few chickens for dinner. I won't lose sleep if they are in fear or slight pain for a few minutes in the process. And this is coming from someone who loves animals, has fostered dozens of abandoned kittens and found homes for them, and personally cared for every injured or ostracized chicken (one who is picked on by the rest of the chickens) I owned.
Surgically modifying and imprisoning a non-domesticated wild animal, and a higher mammal to boot, seems like a different story. This is pretty unforgivable, especially since the purpose is complete horse shit - ancient "medicine" that doesn't cure anything.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
basic human rights are sometimes ignored in every country
who freaking cares? let's take care of humanity before we start saving all the bears/other animals. honestly, I am sick to death of all the animal rights people. do they realize that there are humans suffering terrible shit all over the world? how about them?
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:35 synapse wrote: [quote] How does legality change how inhumane an action is?
It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
basic human rights are sometimes ignored in every country
There's a difference in magnitude. People get murdered in every country - that doesn't mean the murder rate is the same in every country.
On August 13 2011 07:47 brain_ wrote: The biggest joke is that this is all this abuse is for the sake of bullshit holistic medicine that does nothing. I mean, mistreating a stupid, domesticated animal shortly before you eat it is sort of understandable, although still undesirable. Surgically modifying and imprisoning a non-domesticated wild animal, and a higher mammal to boot, seems like a different story.
Not defending it supposely it's suppose to make you fearless and used as a ritualistic thing I guess? when people go into battle. Something like that hence when someone does something outrageous you say "did you eat bear bile or something?"
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote: [quote] It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
How is it not an opinion.... have you read the posts before you? obviously there is evidence against your hypothesis
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
On August 13 2011 07:05 Technique wrote: [quote] Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote: [quote] So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
How is it not an opinion.... have you read the posts before you? obviously there is evidence against your hypothesis
Are you really that ignorant?
Compare written animal rights in Netherlands opposed to written animal rights in China... perhaps you will get why i say it's not an opinion then?
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
How is it not an opinion.... have you read the posts before you? obviously there is evidence against your hypothesis
Are you really that ignorant?
Compare written animal rights in Netherlands opposed to written animal rights in China... perhaps you will get why i say it's not an opinion then?
Have you read the proposals? tell me after you've read it
On August 12 2011 21:22 Crushgroove wrote: OP is silly... No. Bears do not have self-aware sentience just because one bear killed itself. As for killing the cub, it sounds as though the mother was just trying to free it, but killed it. Lemmings run off cliffs all the time. We should infer from this that they have read too much Chaucer and believe paradise truly is lost and the only way to save it is to fly.....
Thanks for sharing the news story though.
Very very doubtful that the bear ran into a wall with intention of inflicting self-harm, rather, it was kept in a cage its whole life and was very unfamiliar with the whole concept of running and object permanence in the first place. It hit the wall and died. It was a messed up bear. Farmer's fault. End of story. Let's attempt not to personify animals because of this.
No lemming ever jumped to his death, sorry bro. + Show Spoiler +
Misconceptions about lemmings go back many centuries. In the 1530s, the geographer Zeigler of Strasbourg proposed the theory that the creatures fell out of the sky during stormy weather (also featured in the folklore of the Inupiat/Yupik at Norton Sound), and then died suddenly when the grass grew in spring.[5] This description was contradicted by the natural historian Ole Worm, who accepted that the lemmings could fall out of the sky but claimed that they had been brought over by the wind rather than created by spontaneous generation. It was Worm who first published dissections of a lemming, which showed that they are anatomically similar to most other rodents, and the work of Carl Linnaeus proved that the animals had a natural origin.[6][7] When large numbers of lemmings get on the move, some of them will inevitably drown while crossing rivers and lakes, like this one in Norway.
Lemmings became the subject of a popular misconception that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Actually, it is not a mass suicide but the result of their migratory behavior. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the misconception.[8]
The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1954 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[9][10] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[11] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[12]
This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings," players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards and successfully launch them off a cliff.
Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming suicide is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. This metaphor is seen many times in popular culture, such as in the video game Lemmings, and in episodes of Red Dwarf and Adult Swim's show Robot Chicken. The Blink 182 song "Lemmings" also uses this metaphor as does the 1973 stage show National Lampoon's Lemmings starring John Belushi and mocking post-Woodstock groupthink.[13]
Straight from wikipedia, although I could find that documentary about Lemmings NOT jumping off cliffs. I am pretty sure the Mother Bear noticed the shackles that impeded its own freedom many many times before, and upon realizing it could not release its cub and escape it took the next best escape route. You seem to underestimate the intelligence of life.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
How is it not an opinion.... have you read the posts before you? obviously there is evidence against your hypothesis
Are you really that ignorant?
Compare written animal rights in Netherlands opposed to written animal rights in China... perhaps you will get why i say it's not an opinion then?
Have you read the proposals? tell me after you've read it
Reply to what i say for once... can't keep dodging everything i say constantly by spewing out nonsense.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
On August 13 2011 07:47 brain_ wrote: The biggest joke is that this is all this abuse is for the sake of bullshit holistic medicine that does nothing. I mean, mistreating a stupid, domesticated animal shortly before you eat it is sort of understandable, although still undesirable. Take chickens, for example... I've owned chickens; they're stupid, fairly hopeless in the wild, and not very easy to sympathize with. And they taste great, because we've bred them for thousands of years to taste great. I don't really mind offing a few chickens for dinner. I won't lose sleep if they are in fear or slight pain for a few minutes in the process. And this is coming from someone who loves animals, has fostered dozens of abandoned kittens and found homes for them, and personally cared for every injured or ostracized chicken (one who is picked on by the rest of the chickens) I owned.
Surgically modifying and imprisoning a non-domesticated wild animal, and a higher mammal to boot, seems like a different story. This is pretty unforgivable, especially since the purpose is complete horse shit - ancient "medicine" that doesn't cure anything.
Well the mass market meat industry certainly does not take your approach to raising animals. Oh no, that would be unprofitable. The treatment in animal sheds and slaughterhouses is comparable to whats happening to these bears.
On August 13 2011 06:15 Blasterion wrote: "It always feels like fighting out of turf when the Europeans say something about Asia, mind it be China. Korea, North South, or Japan, they always got shit to bitch about, Like thinking they're better or something or give the "lol communist remark." (You all know it's true) Just think of it as standard European junk people throw at people because they can. I'll try to ignore at disregard them from now on."
Yes this is generalizing, the some people always post about other people on the threads
Just giving an example you know
Well we are better when it comes to animal rights, so we don't need to ''act'' like we are...
Problem is that in Netherlands for example we are improving animal rights through the animal party (first in the world) step by step... but in China animal rights are basically non existent and never improve either... no1 gives a fuck and the ones that do don't do anything bout it.
But sure stick your head in the sand.
But right now you're worse. and with evidence too. Problem?
No we are not... what are you talking bout?
Ps stop trolling with your ''problem?''... it only makes you look even more stupid.
On August 13 2011 06:54 Supamang wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:46 Technique wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:45 synapse wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:38 Technique wrote: [quote] It means it's not condoned by the majority and it's a criminal action that can then be punished... getting at least some kind of justice and stop the people who do it.
The action itself is just as inhumane of course.
So you are assuming that because bear torture is not illegal in China, then most Chinese people must be okay with it?
Well feel free to link me to all the protests there have been in China against animal cruelty?
I'm not saying every1 is ''okay'' with it, i'm saying no1 seems to do anything about it.
Heres a friendly repost of a Dutch list of worst countries for animal cruelty.
Oh dear, looks like your Netherlands are ahead of China in terms of animal cruelty! Care to present your case?
EDIT: I came into this thread with the exact same stereotypes of China having awful animal cruelty problems. I did some research and now have come to the obvious conclusion that this shit goes on everywhere, but us Westerners are just so ready to eat up any negative hype about China to feed our already heavily biased beliefs.
Do you have the balls to bash my country even though it seems from this post your country ranks higher interms of animal cruelty?
Do you even know what that article is about? It's complaints coming through animal vets, busting people that trade animals through internet and the hunting license for the royal family etc... we act on it... that's the difference... besides anything to do with statistics... we are honest... in China everything is censored and true data that reflects bad on them won't come out... Can't even have google in China for crying out loud.
What does that shit have anything to do with this thread? You seem to be bashing my country for the sake of bashing it. What reason do you have to do nothing but to kick dirt on the name of my nation. Do you Jesuits have nothing better to do?
Well i haven't said anything that is not true and was just replying to your nonsense at this point.
You reply to animal rights with censorship tell me that makes sense.
Because you quoted a dutch article that had a collected data of people putting in complaints about animal abuse... If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
Lists like that are favorable here in the Netherlands for getting more support for improving animal rights, you can easily twist it either way... fact is we are at the forefront of animal rights and China's animal rights are basically still non existent... and that's not an opinion.
So, the fact that you guys are improving animal rights makes you guys at the forefront of animal rights...In my earlier post, I mentioned that the article that you yourself posted mentioned China improving its animal rights laws.
Ok, how about you just go back to address my earlier post? That would just make things a lot easier
EDIT: And how does the data about people complaining about animal abuse make you somehow leagues better than China? Animal abuse is still going on frequently enough in Netherlands to land them near the top of that list. Youre ignoring that simple fact.
EDIT: oh and I love your quote:
If you had the whole bear/tiger thing in Netherlands, the organisations taking these type of phone calls (which you probably don't even have in China) wouldn't have enough employees to take in all the complaints...
pure conjecture based off of already biased preconceptions about China and hopeful thinking about your own country
Man I'm glad I'm a vegetarian(almost vegan), I personally chose to not be part of the problem but rather the solution by not supporting inhumane treatment of animals in anyway (clothing,food etc.). It's not fair to an animal to be raised to die with no freedom but the cage they live in. Although it happens every where America is under constant surveillance by PETA so there is a source of small justice and they do bring awareness to people. China on the other hand doesn't necessarily have that so they get away with a lot or call it "scientific research"(I call it BS).
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unfavorable responses from the masses
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
First i dont eat KFC, i eat Popeyes.
Second, A bear is an Wild animal, while a chicken has been domesticated for many millenia. Why don't you tell your greatx100 grandfather that he should release his flock of chikens and starve? im sure hell understand that hes being cruel to animals.
Finally, i tend not to eat factory farmed meat anyway, because its unhealthy and as more and more ppl know this, demand will fall, and so will supply.
On August 12 2011 15:03 Pointillism wrote: If this did truly happen then it proves that the bear is conscious enough to know that she prefers death for her and her cub over the horrid conditions that they would be kept in for the rest of their lives. Which raises the question, how is it legal to hold bears like this? when they would literally rather kill themselves than go through it.
Simple. This happened in China.
Place where even basic human rights are sometimes ignored.
basic human rights are sometimes ignored in every country
There's a difference in magnitude. People get murdered in every country - that doesn't mean the murder rate is the same in every country.
Then people shouldn't make such blanket antagonistic posts that don't actually mean anything.
Leave the animal rights and treatment discussion out of this topic. Thanks. -Nyovne
HUH?
What should we be talking about in this thread then? NBA predictions?
I get a sick feeling in my stomach reading this kind of stories. Cant believe how people live with themselves while doing this stuff to another living being.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
First i dont eat KFC, i eat Popeyes.
Second, A bear is an Wild animal, while a chicken has been domesticated for many millenia.* Why don't you tell your greatx100 grandfather* that he should release his flock of chikens and starve? im sure hell understand that hes being cruel to animals.
Finally, i tend not to eat factory farmed meat anyway, because its unhealthy* and as more and more ppl know this, demand will fall*, and so will supply*.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
Nobody has posted any useful statistics yet - and I doubt they exist. For them to exist we'd have to believe that China has the same accurate record keeping with respect to animal rights and animal abuse as the Netherlands, which I cannot believe, both because of possible corruption and lack of police professionalism and because of the nature of Chinese geography, economics and the disparity in social classes.
The first thing would be to look at animal rights laws. What are on the books in China and the Netherlands? What is against the law, formally, in each country?
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
On August 13 2011 06:45 Urnhardt wrote: amazingly awesome behavior yet unbelievably sad at the same time. probably sound pretty disciminatory but i'm honestly not surprised this happened in china.
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I agree, there arent enough statistics to accurately and definitively rank the countries in terms of animal abuse. China might actually be worse in terms of animal abuse than the Netherlands but no sources will ever be able to prove everything 100%.
All I wanted to do was to throw in some reasonable doubt towards the idea that China is by and large the worst place in the world for animal cruelty. This Technique kid seems to believe that about China and all I need to do to beat him in an argument is to discredit his opinion by showing sources and pointing out facts that support the idea that other countries can also be just as terrible. Demonizing an entire country and generalizing its people without doing your own research and keeping an open mind is willful ignorance and thats what I hate to see.
If you show me evidence that China is by far the worst country in the world for animal cruelty, then I will gladly agree with you. In the meantime, Foie Gras Duck says to not be so biased against China:
On August 13 2011 07:53 Misanthrophic13 wrote: [quote]
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
You are really so funny. You probably eat beef right? Cows are sacred in other countries, yet you eat them. Oh noez. Stop generalizing with bias, this thread is really pissing me off.
On August 13 2011 07:53 Misanthrophic13 wrote: [quote]
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
Youre completely hopeless arent you?
You completely ignore my posts twice now. You call the thing a "magic potion" just to make the Chinese seem worse, DESPITE all of the links posted earlier in the thread explaining how bear bile isnt actually useless. You post a single issue about China in Africa as support for your viewpoint, when we could go on forever back and forth posting instances of other countries as well as China being cruel to animals.
And as much as us Westerners hate the idea of our pets being food to others, dog/cat eating in and of itself is not animal cruelty. If they treat them badly before slaughter it is, but the act of eating animals is not cruelty. Thats like me saying the USA is cruel to animals because of "cow/chicken eating". The way we raise the animals and prepare them for slaughter may be cruel, but the mere act of eating them is not
EDIT: And thats not even mentioning the fact that eating dog/cat is rare in China. Ive been there and I did not see a single restaurant serving dog or cat. I did not meet a single person who ate dog or cat. All of the Chinese people I know who are from China have not eaten dog or cat. Stereotypes seem to rule your psyche
This article has just as much creditability as our National Enquirer.
Bear escapes cage after hearing her cub scream in pain? This animal cannot be healthy enough to have a cub if she was being milked for bile and had a hole in her abdomen.
-Farmer flees for his life at the sight of the mother cub, but also stays around to witness the bear suffocate her own cub and commit suicide? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Keep in mind that this was probably a private rural farm area in China. I highly doubt there would be many random witnesses hanging around watching bears get milked.
Screenshot or it didn't happen. The sickly bear probably got loose, the farmer bashed it over the head with a shovel and the cub was probably already dead in the first place.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
You are really so funny. You probably eat beef right? Cows are sacred in other countries, yet you eat them. Oh noez. Stop generalizing with bias, this thread is really pissing me off.
I see eating beef and keeping bears in pain for years on end as a complete different subject...
On August 13 2011 08:48 Supamang wrote: And as much as us Westerners hate the idea of our pets being food to others, dog/cat eating in and of itself is not animal cruelty. If they treat them badly before slaughter it is, but the act of eating animals is not cruelty. Thats like me saying the USA is cruel to animals because of "cow/chicken eating". The way we raise the animals and prepare them for slaughter may be cruel, but the mere act of eating them is not
And thats not even mentioning the fact that eating dog/cat is rare in China. Ive been there and I did not see a single restaurant serving dog or cat. I did not meet a single person who ate dog or cat. All of the Chinese people I know who are from China have not eaten dog or cat. Stereotypes seem to rule your psyche
On August 13 2011 07:53 Misanthrophic13 wrote: [quote]
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
Statistics are always twisted for one side or another. You bring up far too many logical fallacies for anyone to take your arguments seriously.
You're taking a case example and using it to say that China has the worst animal rights. The Netherlands has many cases of horses being raised for meat that are starved, dehydrated, and abused. Does that automatically mean they are the worst? No. It's just an example.
Why are you bringing up eating domesticated animals that are kept as pets in other parts of the world? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Just because you don't eat them doesn't mean others shouldn't. If my facts are correct, people from the Netherlands as well as China eat horse meat. In the US and UK, it is considered taboo because they are kept as pets. Does that mean nobody should be eating horses? Those dogs and cats eaten in China likely led a better life before being eaten than the cows, pigs, and chickens that are factory farmed for your meat. Personally, I love meat, and I have no problem with eating any animal. I do prefer traditionally farmed meat over factory farmed meat because of the flavor (ie, Kobe beef vs a regular steak), but that's just personal preference. Just because you think it's a cute animal doesn't mean it shouldn't be eaten. It just shows your prejudice and bias.
You also blame China for something like elephant poaching when 20-30 years ago, it was the entire Western world's demand for ivory that caused elephant populations to go nearly extinct. What do you think of fishermen who have caused entire populations of tuna and salmon to be wiped out to feed American and European demand?
doing horrible bullshit in the name of pseudoscience or bronze age myths
sounds like every country on this planet to me not just china ...
yours included
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I agree, there arent enough statistics to accurately and definitively rank the countries in terms of animal abuse. China might actually be worse in terms of animal abuse than the Netherlands but no sources will ever be able to prove everything 100%.
All I wanted to do was to throw in some reasonable doubt towards the idea that China is by and large the worst place in the world for animal cruelty. This Technique kid seems to believe that about China and all I need to do to beat him in an argument is to discredit his opinion by showing sources and pointing out facts that support the idea that other countries can also be just as terrible. Demonizing an entire country and generalizing its people without doing your own research and keeping an open mind is willful ignorance and thats what I hate to see.
If you show me evidence that China is by far the worst country in the world for animal cruelty, then I will gladly agree with you. In the meantime, Foie Gras Duck says to not be so biased against China:
I don't know if China is the worst, but I'd certainly put it far behind any country in Western Europe / North America. I don't have directly relevant statistics, but I'm also quite sure I'm right - from what I'm heard, from the general nature of Chinese abuses with respect to other rights and so on.
On August 13 2011 07:59 Blasterion wrote: [quote] If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I will be willing to accept that statistic if accept mine. Really though, thru Supamang's post you can see China is not in the top ten of animal abusive nations
You would be a ostrich if you where a animal.
Arguing how China does not have the worst animal rights (or not even in top ten) while draining/torturing bears for years and years for a ''magic potion'' and that in 2011! And then i didn't even talk about abuse of tigers for their bones cause it's believed to make you ''live longer'' and that in 2011!
Dog/cat eating...
Hell Chinese even kill animals outside of their own country for BS... Here a little quote of what i mean: ''With Chinese influence growing in Africa, the number of poachings has increased dramatically, as has the Chinese demand for ivory.''
You are really so funny. You probably eat beef right? Cows are sacred in other countries, yet you eat them. Oh noez. Stop generalizing with bias, this thread is really pissing me off.
I see eating beef and keeping bears in pain for years on end as a complete different subject...
On August 13 2011 07:53 Misanthrophic13 wrote: [quote]
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I agree, there arent enough statistics to accurately and definitively rank the countries in terms of animal abuse. China might actually be worse in terms of animal abuse than the Netherlands but no sources will ever be able to prove everything 100%.
All I wanted to do was to throw in some reasonable doubt towards the idea that China is by and large the worst place in the world for animal cruelty. This Technique kid seems to believe that about China and all I need to do to beat him in an argument is to discredit his opinion by showing sources and pointing out facts that support the idea that other countries can also be just as terrible. Demonizing an entire country and generalizing its people without doing your own research and keeping an open mind is willful ignorance and thats what I hate to see.
If you show me evidence that China is by far the worst country in the world for animal cruelty, then I will gladly agree with you. In the meantime, Foie Gras Duck says to not be so biased against China:
I don't know if China is the worst, but I'd certainly put it far behind any country in Western Europe / North America. I don't have directly relevant statistics, but I'm also quite sure I'm right - from what I'm heard, from the general nature of Chinese abuses with respect to other rights and so on.
Doesn't this just define the very need for a little research before you go around regurgitating opinions around the place?
EVERYONE these days is 'quite sure' they're right, until they've done a little research and find they were completely wrong in their assumptions. Sometimes you find evidence that affirms your suspicions. Hooray! But, having a 'gut feeling' and being 'quite sure' you're right is no basis for credibility at all.
On August 13 2011 08:48 Supamang wrote: And as much as us Westerners hate the idea of our pets being food to others, dog/cat eating in and of itself is not animal cruelty. If they treat them badly before slaughter it is, but the act of eating animals is not cruelty. Thats like me saying the USA is cruel to animals because of "cow/chicken eating". The way we raise the animals and prepare them for slaughter may be cruel, but the mere act of eating them is not
And thats not even mentioning the fact that eating dog/cat is rare in China. Ive been there and I did not see a single restaurant serving dog or cat. I did not meet a single person who ate dog or cat. All of the Chinese people I know who are from China have not eaten dog or cat. Stereotypes seem to rule your psyche
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I agree, there arent enough statistics to accurately and definitively rank the countries in terms of animal abuse. China might actually be worse in terms of animal abuse than the Netherlands but no sources will ever be able to prove everything 100%.
All I wanted to do was to throw in some reasonable doubt towards the idea that China is by and large the worst place in the world for animal cruelty. This Technique kid seems to believe that about China and all I need to do to beat him in an argument is to discredit his opinion by showing sources and pointing out facts that support the idea that other countries can also be just as terrible. Demonizing an entire country and generalizing its people without doing your own research and keeping an open mind is willful ignorance and thats what I hate to see.
If you show me evidence that China is by far the worst country in the world for animal cruelty, then I will gladly agree with you. In the meantime, Foie Gras Duck says to not be so biased against China:
I don't know if China is the worst, but I'd certainly put it far behind any country in Western Europe / North America. I don't have directly relevant statistics, but I'm also quite sure I'm right - from what I'm heard, from the general nature of Chinese abuses with respect to other rights and so on.
Isn't this just define the very need for a little research before you go around regurgitating opinions around the place?
EVERYONE these days is 'quite sure' they're right, until they've done a little research and find they were completely wrong in their assumptions.
Well i posted a link to animal laws in Netherlands and asked the guy i was arguing with to do the same for China, but he ignored it... that's because animal rights are non existent in China...
On August 13 2011 08:42 cz wrote: Dunno if this was posted, but:
what's more sad is that people harvest these bears just for the bile, and there are more humane ways to make the drug then torturing bears. that's why i'm never going to eat foig gras either, my god it's crazy how they make that shit.
Steering clear of all animal cruelty debates and bickering, however I question the authenticity of the report and am inclined to believe a large majority of the happenings outlined in the 'witnesses' recount were fabricated. There's a possibility it's true, far more likely it's a Fox News-esk situation with animal rights activists pushing through a 'heart-wrenching story of motherly love and desperation" as opposed to just laying down the facts, a couple of imprisoned bears died. Almost nobody would have given a second glance at that report. Welcome to the media.
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Well the fairness of that statement is arguable - but anyways I don't think the levels of cruelty are the same. (not that I think kfc's chickens are treated humanely)
lol
Damn, I wasn't aware that animals had an advanced enough level of understanding of death to kill others out of pity and commit suicide.
I knew of some instance where birds would eat/throw off the baby birds that can't fly and stuff like that but I think this is way different.
On August 13 2011 07:53 Misanthrophic13 wrote: [quote]
This.
Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy in his post.
You are looking for 'ignorance', not hypocrisy. And he's not being too unaware - China has a significantly worse record on animal rights and abuse than a lot of other nations (e.g. Western nations), and it has 1/5 of the world's population. There's a decent chance this happened in China before reading where it happened.
If I said "Black people has a significantly worse record on going to jail than other people (e.g. Asian people) and is a large part of the US population. There for there's a decent chance if a crime happened. A black person did it before reading what happened"
What would you say?
just giving an example
If you were talking about a crime in the United States, you would be statistically correct. There is a decent chance. That's just basic logic and statistics from the premises given. It of course depends on the crime rates between races and the percentage of the minority race with respect to the total population. It's just math given the premises.
It would be statistically correct but If I said that with a serious face I would be branded as a racist.
So you're saying that people shouldn't bring up the truth as part of an argument because of how society might respond to it? That's your rebuttal - that the truth might offend people, so, like, I guess it doesn't count?
I am saying it strongly discourages one from bringing up the statistical value of something that might invite unwanted response from the masses
Yes, but this was all in reference to this "well, I'm not too surprised this took place in China" bit. Since you were arguing that China was as good as the Netherlands with respect to animal rights, I assume you brought up the "how would you react if this were black people..." bit to show that what that guy was saying about China was prejudicial and not based on fact. Now you are saying that the black people example you gave is statistically correct, and since that's an analogy it would also mean that that "not surprised it's in China" is also statistically likely or decently likely, which is counter to your original viewpoint.
I agree, there arent enough statistics to accurately and definitively rank the countries in terms of animal abuse. China might actually be worse in terms of animal abuse than the Netherlands but no sources will ever be able to prove everything 100%.
All I wanted to do was to throw in some reasonable doubt towards the idea that China is by and large the worst place in the world for animal cruelty. This Technique kid seems to believe that about China and all I need to do to beat him in an argument is to discredit his opinion by showing sources and pointing out facts that support the idea that other countries can also be just as terrible. Demonizing an entire country and generalizing its people without doing your own research and keeping an open mind is willful ignorance and thats what I hate to see.
If you show me evidence that China is by far the worst country in the world for animal cruelty, then I will gladly agree with you. In the meantime, Foie Gras Duck says to not be so biased against China:
I don't know if China is the worst, but I'd certainly put it far behind any country in Western Europe / North America. I don't have directly relevant statistics, but I'm also quite sure I'm right - from what I'm heard, from the general nature of Chinese abuses with respect to other rights and so on.
I was too until I looked around. Now Im not so sure. Theres a part of me that still feels that youre right, but the critical thinking part of my brain keeps reminding me that I dont have nearly enough evidence to even begin coming to a conclusion about this.
I mean, heres an example of me being wrong. Based on what I heard, I was sure that North Korea was a completely backwards country with no internet and barely functioning infrastructure. Sure there are probably many areas that are like that, but they definitely have infrastructure, they have internet, they got subways, they even allow tourists. I dont want to turn this into a discussion about North Korea, but my point is that there are certain countries were we will only get news about them if it fits a certain criteria. In North Koreas case, its about how badly its people are being oppressed. In Chinas case, well, really anything that might seem threatening to our (USA) current position in the world
On August 13 2011 08:48 Supamang wrote: And as much as us Westerners hate the idea of our pets being food to others, dog/cat eating in and of itself is not animal cruelty. If they treat them badly before slaughter it is, but the act of eating animals is not cruelty. Thats like me saying the USA is cruel to animals because of "cow/chicken eating". The way we raise the animals and prepare them for slaughter may be cruel, but the mere act of eating them is not
And thats not even mentioning the fact that eating dog/cat is rare in China. Ive been there and I did not see a single restaurant serving dog or cat. I did not meet a single person who ate dog or cat. All of the Chinese people I know who are from China have not eaten dog or cat. Stereotypes seem to rule your psyche
On August 12 2011 14:55 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Lololol. This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Everytime you eat KFC you're supporting animal cruelty!
Don't come into these threads and shed tears of ignorance. You're part of the problem.
You're pretty fucked up! gratz Not everyone is eating KFC you know?
Humanity is pathetic in many ways!
On topic: I dont think the bear did that on purpose. It just wasnt healthy anymore (psychologically) because of all that torture... It was just some kind of disturbed behaviour i think.
On August 13 2011 08:48 Supamang wrote: And as much as us Westerners hate the idea of our pets being food to others, dog/cat eating in and of itself is not animal cruelty. If they treat them badly before slaughter it is, but the act of eating animals is not cruelty. Thats like me saying the USA is cruel to animals because of "cow/chicken eating". The way we raise the animals and prepare them for slaughter may be cruel, but the mere act of eating them is not
And thats not even mentioning the fact that eating dog/cat is rare in China. Ive been there and I did not see a single restaurant serving dog or cat. I did not meet a single person who ate dog or cat. All of the Chinese people I know who are from China have not eaten dog or cat. Stereotypes seem to rule your psyche
There are many people who care in China. That Jackie Chan video earlier shows that. The above article doesnt mention by name, but it does mention 68 Chinese animal rights charities are campaigning against this US-China rodeo event being held. They even seem to think that rodeos are "trashy US culture", as if it represents our country. Ironic huh?
Stuff like this makes me sick. I don't know what would drive a man to do this. It is CLEARLY wrong on many levels. And I know that it happens to many other animals and I'm not saying that any of that is not wrong. It's all wrong when it comes to cruelty and unnecessary suffering to any living being. But this is just some Hostile(the movie and the adjective) bullshit.
I find some of comments interesting in their view of how the mother bear was compassionate in killing their young and I wondered; would those same people ever consider it to be okay to kill their child and then themselves to be the right thing to do?
On August 13 2011 10:00 Livelovedie wrote: I find some of comments interesting in their view of how the mother bear was compassionate in killing their young and I wondered; would those same people ever consider it to be okay to kill their child and then themselves to be the right thing to do?
Depends really on the situation. And their personal values. Of course I see it as you only have one life, if you live painfully you still have a chance but if you're dead then it's just gg.
On August 13 2011 11:13 FusionCutter wrote: Can't find any verification of the suicide and cub killing part. No doubt about the animal cruelty, but was this story sensationalized?
a) It’s almost impossible to get a formula containing wild animal parts in modern days, almost all formulas have been altered to avoid this exact same situations. There are however a lot of shady stuff going on, with a lot of rich guys wanting the “original recipe” and paying big cash for a lot of illicit stuff like tiger poaching etc, this “farm” thing most likely falls into the same category.
b) Somebody needs to go torch that "farm"
c) I don’t understand why people, that have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, like so much, making retarded comments. Its 2011, you have the internet and shit, its time to wake the fuck up.
FYI: Did you know that the “avian flu” pandemic in china was squelched using a TCM formula? Did you also know that later on, the main ingredient for a TCM formula effective in combating the “swine flu” vanished from the Chinese market when the scare started? It was later found out that this ingredient was mainly bought by a western pharmaceutical. The ingredient was Chinese Star Anise and the medicament for what it was used is Tamiflu, the most widely used treatment for swine flu in the west.
It’s plain stupid to say science dismisses TCM, simply because there are no real hard studies. It’s simple, money will only be invested on stuff that can be patented, plants with minerals or acupuncture can’t be patented Fortunately, the medical community is adhering more and more to TCM, for example I recently have been to a medical congress, one of the speakers revealed that the creator of the modern chemotherapy cocktail is working on a new version that has imbued a TCM formula that aims to drastically reduce the side-effects of chemotherapy. Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
A: no suicide possible.period/self-preservation instinct etc.
B: so what, we have external slavery to keep western captialism and imperialism running/ give unborn for science/ fatten all sorts of cute little animals for eat (while some others of us starve) destroy our own and only environment (like very few other creature does)
...
do you know how much I care for these bears? QQ about that is hypocritical imo
The caging and torturing of bears in China is something they will have to fix in the future for sure.
But I'm not surprised that this thread has sort of devolved into semi-China bashing with people chiming in that "they're sure" its worse than western nations.
How is stuffing non killed baby chicks into garbage bins and kicking them around for the hell of it make you better than other nations. So Rebornlife don't call people from other country disgusting when this was filmed in your own country.
It's not too far fetched to state, that the huge majority posting in this thread also contribute in at least one way to the way things are regarding animal abuse and torture. Be it cosmetics, meat, eggs, clothing / leather, pets. You still swing the club over the baby seal's head, so to speak albeit you of course find the true stories of torture saddening.
Do you always buy the expensive eggs from bio-farmers? Living in a cage which is only as big as yourself isn't quite the fun way to live. Do you always pay the extra bucks to avoid slaugherhouse meat? Do they get numbed before they die? Not at all, many just get ripped apart while being completely conscious. They die after hours of bleeding out or are skinned alive .. again, no anesthesia. Why? Because its cheaper by a few cent per "piece". Do you know where the meat comes from when going to KFC (as mentioned from someone else in this thread), or any other fast food company? Do you wear leather and if so, was it produced as a side product from "happy farm animals (if that even exists)" who died of old age? Even today, many pelts come from 3rd world countries, or eastern countries. It's quite funny, how they just skin some animals alive, leaving them to rot on a wheel barrow among hundreds of other almost dead corpses. Of course, it goes without saying, that they are still alive, even after having been skinned off EVERYTHING on every part of their body. Why do they do that? Easy answer. Any kind of incision could potentally damage the valuable pelt and therefore they have to be skinned alive. What about your pets? Where did you get your cat or dog from? Do you know, that a huge amount of pets are bred in barbarous conditions, small spaces and cages, where they have to live in their own shit, full of bacteria, dirt and vermin, where they are constantly abused by the "breeders"? What about fish? How many sea animals had to suffocate, because the massive nets just happen to catch EVERYTHING and not just the fish you actually seek out when fishing.
Of course that story is sad, but be aware of what is going on, all the time, every minute, everywhere. You're not the actual butcher, but also, you're not as far away to be considered innocent. Of course animals have do die, if you eat a steak, but one can always choose where the steak comes from, be it a barbarous slaughterhaus or an actual farm, where they live as close a normal life, as it can be for a "livestock". However, you must be willing to pay the price and that is where many prefer to stay ignorant :-(
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
Okay the number obviously isn't accurate, but it's common knowledge. Lol, wtf kind of question is that anyways? There are plenty of aspects of Chinese culture that I admire. Stuff like bear farming and shit isn't one of them.
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
Rofl, living in the west.. Plenty of people in the "west" are sympathetic and / or have positive opinions of china.
on topic. Humans are the true savages of the world, very sad.
On August 13 2011 11:46 Kuni wrote: It's not too far fetched to state, that the huge majority posting in this thread also contribute in at least one way to the way things are regarding animal abuse and torture. Be it cosmetics, meat, eggs, clothing / leather, pets. You still swing the club over the baby seal's head, so to speak albeit you of course find the true stories of torture saddening.
Do you always buy the expensive eggs from bio-farmers? Living in a cage which is only as big as yourself isn't quite the fun way to live. Do you always pay the extra bucks to avoid slaugherhouse meat? Do they get numbed before they die? Not at all, many just get ripped apart while being completely conscious. They die after hours of bleeding out or are skinned alive .. again, no anesthesia. Why? Because its cheaper by a few cent per "piece". Do you know where the meat comes from when going to KFC (as mentioned from someone else in this thread), or any other fast food company? Do you wear leather and if so, was it produced as a side product from "happy farm animals (if that even exists)" who died of old age? Even today, many pelts come from 3rd world countries, or eastern countries. It's quite funny, how they just skin some animals alive, leaving them to rot on a wheel barrow among hundreds of other almost dead corpses. Of course, it goes without saying, that they are still alive, even after having been skinned off EVERYTHING on every part of their body. Why do they do that? Easy answer. Any kind of incision could potentally damage the valuable pelt and therefore they have to be skinned alive. What about your pets? Where did you get your cat or dog from? Do you know, that a huge amount of pets are bred in barbarous conditions, small spaces and cages, where they have to live in their own shit, full of bacteria, dirt and vermin, where they are constantly abused by the "breeders"? What about fish? How many sea animals had to suffocate, because the massive nets just happen to catch EVERYTHING and not just the fish you actually seek out when fishing.
Of course that story is sad, but be aware of what is going on, all the time, every minute, everywhere. You're not the actual butcher, but also, you're not as far away to be considered innocent. Of course animals have do die, if you eat a steak, but one can always choose where the steak comes from, be it a barbarous slaughterhaus or an actual farm, where they live as close a normal life, as it can be for a "livestock". However, you must be willing to pay the price and that is where many prefer to stay ignorant :-(
well said... though i'm guilty for buying and consuming food that I know not of origin. However, we shouldn't give up on humanity.. can't expect everyone to believe in our ideals but each person standing up for the right reasons is better than nothing....
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
Okay the number obviously isn't accurate, but it's common knowledge. Lol, wtf kind of question is that anyways? There are plenty of aspects of Chinese culture that I admire. Stuff like bear farming and shit isn't one of them.
Well, yandere, I've now seen something even worse than the story in the OP
It seems pretty clear humans do shitty things in every country. Regarding some of the arguing here, is it really worth it to attack a whole group of people because of what a minority did?
If you want to make a difference, by all means, try. I suspect most of us are too preoccupied with our own lives and challenges however. That would describe me, although I'm certainly going to avoid bear bile and foie gras now, if they ever cross my path.
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
Okay the number obviously isn't accurate, but it's common knowledge. Lol, wtf kind of question is that anyways? There are plenty of aspects of Chinese culture that I admire. Stuff like bear farming and shit isn't one of them.
of course not, I was refering to TCM
Bear farming is being done for TCM, if you didn't make that connection.
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
Okay the number obviously isn't accurate, but it's common knowledge. Lol, wtf kind of question is that anyways? There are plenty of aspects of Chinese culture that I admire. Stuff like bear farming and shit isn't one of them.
of course not, I was refering to TCM
Bear farming is being done for TCM, if you didn't make that connection.
Sorry, refering to Acupuncture and like specifically, I do not agree to bear bile farms
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
i don't get how people are able to make a distinction between killing/torturing animals for amusement (like in zoos or bullfights) and killing/torturing animals to be able to eat that burger (that only makes us sick and none of us really needs to survive) or to wear those leather sneakers. it's the same thing, don't be hypocritical.
That's terrible.. That being said it would have been fun to watch and I'm still going to order all the products that support things like this anyways because I don't really care enough to go out of the way to stop it. Does that make me a bad person?
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
i don't get how people are able to make a distinction between killing/torturing animals for amusement (like in zoos or bullfights) and killing/torturing animals to be able to eat that burger (that only makes us sick and none of us really needs to survive) or to wear those leather sneakers. it's the same thing, don't be hypocritical.
also... go vegan!
respect.
Ask the native Americans. The tribes that hunted the buffaloes would recycle nearly everything about the animal with food. Could they have gone and make their living by farming and what not? Sure, but it would have been a pain in the ass for them. Although they did kill the animals, they did so with respect and displayed it by utilizing their resources. However, come the Americans who hunted the animals just to shoot them.
btw please don't do that stupid vegan crap. It's annoying.
again no one is gonna probably read this nor reply but:
OP just said that the bears were fitted with an iron vest in order to prevent the bears from killing themselves by "punching themselves in the stomach."
again does this insinuate the idea of them being sentient beings to some extent?
On August 12 2011 14:54 Equity213 wrote: Im not one of those PETA freaks, but is this shit really necessary? Even zoos dont seem to be worth the mild amusement we get from them.
Theres nothing wrong with eating animals, but do we really have to torture them and keep them in cages?
i don't get how people are able to make a distinction between killing/torturing animals for amusement (like in zoos or bullfights) and killing/torturing animals to be able to eat that burger (that only makes us sick and none of us really needs to survive) or to wear those leather sneakers. it's the same thing, don't be hypocritical.
also... go vegan!
respect.
Ask the native Americans. The tribes that hunted the buffaloes would recycle nearly everything about the animal with food. Could they have gone and make their living by farming and what not? Sure, but it would have been a pain in the ass for them. Although they did kill the animals, they did so with respect and displayed it by utilizing their resources. However, come the Americans who hunted the animals just to shoot them.
btw please don't do that stupid vegan crap. It's annoying.
well, you're right. but i'm not talking about tribesmen hunting animals to survive (i don't have any problem with those). i'm talking about modern society and our treatment of animals... wich clearly lacks that respect you're talking about. i was merely pointing out the hypocrisy in people complaining about zoos and getting a fat burger in some fast food store afterwards, nothing more.
also, i'm not quite sure what you mean by "that stupid vegan crap"... if you mean just throwing out a slogan like "go vegan" like i did in my previous post, then you're probably right that it doesn't add anything to the discussion in this thread. so let me apologize.
if you mean actually living a vegan lifestyle, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
This just seems like propoganda to me. "Breaking news: someone has claimed to witness..." It really doesn't matter how you finish that sentence. This kind of behaviour has to be noted in a controlled setting to mean anything, not just hearsay by a couple of zookeepers who were probably very excited to be in the news. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
On August 13 2011 13:50 heroyi wrote: again no one is gonna probably read this nor reply but:
OP just said that the bears were fitted with an iron vest in order to prevent the bears from killing themselves by "punching themselves in the stomach."
again does this insinuate the idea of them being sentient beings to some extent?
I wouldn't really think of that as sentient. It's more like animal instinct. In this case, all the bear wants to do is to get rid of the pain. The only sensible solution, albeit to the bear, is to kill itself so that it can stop experiencing that pain.
There are many instances of animals exhibiting queer behavior but it all boils down to them wanting to escape their predicament.
On August 13 2011 13:50 heroyi wrote: again no one is gonna probably read this nor reply but:
OP just said that the bears were fitted with an iron vest in order to prevent the bears from killing themselves by "punching themselves in the stomach."
again does this insinuate the idea of them being sentient beings to some extent?
What do you mean sentient. I would argue that at least most mammals have some kind of sentience. Sentience is not an on/off switch, and since ours seems to be well on the way, species close to us probably have to have some kind of it.
EDIT:As for the OP. Unfortunately it is China, not much chance to remedy the situation. Animal rights become important in societies when they are rich enough for a longer time. China is not there yet, frankly 1st world is not really there yet just more down the line. And China is powerful enough to be able to ignore any political pressure.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other form of medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to uneducated "practitioners".
You're not the first expert on chinese medicine that's popped up here. I think it's stupid to suggest that natural medicine with thousands of years of history behind it has nothing to offer.
Most of it is utter bullshit.
And you base this on... your complete understanding of the human body? There are many practices that see great success, and whether it is purely placebo, or actually "helps", is irrelevant. If the person is not in pain, they aren't in pain. Unfortunately, we would all like it if we had a better understanding of our own bodies, but compared to how much we don't know, we really know closer to nothing.
On August 12 2011 15:04 rift wrote: Traditional Chinese medicine is a farce just like any other suggested medicine lacking clinically-proven efficacy. Of course, people all over the world believe in imaginary deities and fictional history, so I'm sure this is considered completely rational to its uneducated "practitioners".
Above is an absurd post. Every single cure lacks clinical proof at some point. The point of clinical study is to check for side effects and prove efficacy for legal reasons. It doesn't turn something from a farce into a reality.
This is an interesting OP. If mercy killing is a good thing then this bear demonstrated morality for some reason other than self preservation or community preservation. If mercy killing is a bad thing then the bear did something either morally evil or proved that torture will induce insanity.
Why did a mod say to leave animal rights discussion out of an incident that is clearly a great reason to bring it up? I don't understand you sometimes, TL moderation.
On August 13 2011 13:32 Valestrum wrote: That's terrible.. That being said it would have been fun to watch and I'm still going to order all the products that support things like this anyways because I don't really care enough to go out of the way to stop it. Does that make me a bad person?
I think the fact that you said
That's terrible..
proves you don't support things of that nature. But the fact that 1. you lied about believing this is terrible or 2. exaggerate for attention is bad..
On August 13 2011 15:44 Vei wrote: Why did a mod say to leave animal rights discussion out of an incident that is clearly a great reason to bring it up? I don't understand you sometimes, TL moderation.
a fantastic story, but perhaps too fantastic. if only one person recounted this, then I really doubt its veracity. for better or worse, animal rights activists are extremely driven. If I were one, I don't think I'd see any harm in making up a touching story to play the media and attract great attention to my cause.
On August 13 2011 15:44 Vei wrote: Why did a mod say to leave animal rights discussion out of an incident that is clearly a great reason to bring it up? I don't understand you sometimes, TL moderation.
Because talking about animal rights would probably bring a whole lot of assertion of the "facts" (whatever they may be) and not much informed discussion.
On August 12 2011 19:16 wussleeQ wrote: @neoghaleon55 They don't kill the bears because they are using their bile for cures and by killing the bear, you can't milk them every day (It does seem like a very brutal procedure but it's just something they do)
Not only that but our cultures are much different than theirs and who are we to judge them (for example they can eat dogs and we keep them as pets)?
Basically, my point is that people should understand that people who do things like this are not heartless (well not all of them at least) but that the things they do in their lives are normal to them and is just their way of making a living.
I cannot condone this kind of thinking at all. It is called relativist ethics and it's retarded. Basically, you're saying we're not allowed to judge anyone no matter how evil and inhumane they act because everybody's right in their own way.... So we shouldn't judge the murdering bastards around us? Like Kim J. Ill, he's would be just fine and dandy if nobody could judge him.
I think this story is a bullshit. The mother hugged and then strangled it's baby? Yea right, she probably ripped it apart. She ran into a wall and killed herself? Right... how many times, ten?
Noone did anything? Some guy says he saw it? One person? Bullshit.
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
yeah bro, i guess things are pretty fucked up in canada then, here in europe you cant just pay for a faked degree as there are medical orders that control that sort of stuff
also in case you didnt know, here in europe there are plenty or regular universities that teach TCM officialy
On August 12 2011 14:53 travis wrote: Bears have very thick skulls. I doubt it could run into a wall and kill itself.
That said, is what is attested to here actually legal?
I don't think thickness of the skull actually matters... the brain isnt held into place tightly in the head.. so i think the brain could hit the wall of the skull and kill the bear. Running into a wall to kill itself sounds weird but bears can run pretty fast!
On August 13 2011 11:15 Alexstrasas wrote: Also if anyone is wondering, I personally started studying TCM as soon as I finished school, but my teachers and the most prominent TCM specialists in my country all have a medical degree.
Actually this is in 95%+ cases complete bullshit. Most of the TCM specialists who "claim" they have a medical degree actually just paid some cash for a faked degree. In fact this is so widespread, that it's pretty much common knowledge.
Evidence before you start bashing my culture please. otherwise GTFO
It's my culture too. So I'd know.
well then, at least pay some respect to your own culture. or has living in the West gotten you turned around against your own?
There is traditional medecin in all countries. Don't make this a question of nationality - it will only lead to more people bashing China instead of seeing the question at hand.
What the .. Seriously, how can someone do such things to animals? How can someone like that live with the knowledge of being responsible for so much misery ..
On August 13 2011 13:50 heroyi wrote: again no one is gonna probably read this nor reply but:
OP just said that the bears were fitted with an iron vest in order to prevent the bears from killing themselves by "punching themselves in the stomach."
again does this insinuate the idea of them being sentient beings to some extent?
Ofcourse bears are sentient beings. So are all animals and almost all plants. What you mean is reasoning beings perhaps?
On August 13 2011 20:13 Kouji wrote: just shows how fucked up china is and not even bears want to live there.
Oh yeah, generalisation ftw, i was wondering how kfc "treats" their chickens -_-
At least we use that to eat, they are using bear bile to unscientifically and unsuccessfully treat things because of ancient beliefs. Eating chicken does give you nourishment, this bear bile crap does nothing.
On August 14 2011 05:45 Aberu wrote: Traditional Chinese Medicine is immoral. Always has been, just maybe China will wake up and start protesting it after this news story.
On August 13 2011 20:13 Kouji wrote: just shows how fucked up china is and not even bears want to live there.
Oh yeah, generalisation ftw, i was wondering how kfc "treats" their chickens -_-
At least we use that to eat, they are using bear bile to unscientifically and unsuccessfully treat things because of ancient beliefs. Eating chicken does give you nourishment, this bear bile crap does nothing.
You know a lot of pharmaceutical medicine is produced by experiments on animals, plants AND people. Infact, forget medicines, a lot of cosmetics, shampoos, lotions are also made by experimenting on animals. Not to mention how your gas comes from the oppression and abuse of humans. You don't need these things to survive.
Also honestly, since you are german shame on you for this kind of generalization. Its like you have forgotten the history of your country and your continent completely.
edit: Sorry I got Aberu and Kouji confused. Doesn't change the main point though.
On August 14 2011 05:45 Aberu wrote: Traditional Chinese Medicine is immoral. Always has been, just maybe China will wake up and start protesting it after this news story.
On August 13 2011 20:13 Kouji wrote: just shows how fucked up china is and not even bears want to live there.
Oh yeah, generalisation ftw, i was wondering how kfc "treats" their chickens -_-
At least we use that to eat, they are using bear bile to unscientifically and unsuccessfully treat things because of ancient beliefs. Eating chicken does give you nourishment, this bear bile crap does nothing.
That's a huge generalization. A lot of TCM just uses herbs and things. We always hear about the horror stories and therefore it's simplified into being "immoral". relax. THIS kind of TCM is immoral. agreed 100%.
Animals (humans included), learn from past memories. THe capacity of information transfer from one generation to another is what eventually determines the evolution of a brain and the development of a higher intelligence. That beeing said, i belive it was an act of desperation, and that would explain both behaviours. Many humans exibit extreme strength out of fury or anger, so i belive both statements are possible.
On account of animal cruelty, i think its something hard to overcome, except on a personal note if you are a vegetarian. I do belive however, that everyone still can help by trying to be good to the animals he meets in his life. Its not much, but its better than having a cold heart to not feel affected when we discover something like this.
On August 14 2011 05:45 Aberu wrote: Traditional Chinese Medicine is immoral. Always has been, just maybe China will wake up and start protesting it after this news story.
On August 14 2011 05:33 brachester wrote:
On August 13 2011 20:13 Kouji wrote: just shows how fucked up china is and not even bears want to live there.
Oh yeah, generalisation ftw, i was wondering how kfc "treats" their chickens -_-
At least we use that to eat, they are using bear bile to unscientifically and unsuccessfully treat things because of ancient beliefs. Eating chicken does give you nourishment, this bear bile crap does nothing.
You know a lot of pharmaceutical medicine is produced by experiments on animals, plants AND people. Infact, forget medicines, a lot of cosmetics, shampoos, lotions are also made by experimenting on animals. Not to mention how your gas comes from the oppression and abuse of humans. You don't need these things to survive.
I support medical testing on animals. Its incredibly important and has lead to a massive number of breakthroughs that save lives every single day. To say that the suffering of an animal is more important than the lives of millions of people is short sighted and I believe it is wrong. At the same time I oppose the testing of cosmetics on animals. It can be done other ways and has only minor, superficial, completely replaceable impacts on the over all quality of life of humans.
The difference between the two should be intuitivly seen by almost anyone. While some people can oppose medical testing on moral grounds, believing the lives of animals are equivalent to those of humans, I do not fall into that camp. Bear bile extraction isn't for the good of man. It is cruel, inhumane, and appears to be pointless considering the compounds that might actually have worth can be made synthetically. There is no reason to continue farming it. I have trouble even forming an argument in its defense and I do not count cultural preservation as a valid argument.
Also honestly, since you are german shame on you for this kind of generalization. Its like you have forgotten the history of your country and your continent completely.
No reasonable person will condemn all of China for this incident. Anyone who does is simply put, a bigot. Attempting to condemn all of Germany for that actions of their ancestors makes you a bigot.
On August 14 2011 05:45 Aberu wrote: Traditional Chinese Medicine is immoral. Always has been, just maybe China will wake up and start protesting it after this news story.
On August 14 2011 05:33 brachester wrote:
On August 13 2011 20:13 Kouji wrote: just shows how fucked up china is and not even bears want to live there.
Oh yeah, generalisation ftw, i was wondering how kfc "treats" their chickens -_-
At least we use that to eat, they are using bear bile to unscientifically and unsuccessfully treat things because of ancient beliefs. Eating chicken does give you nourishment, this bear bile crap does nothing.
You know a lot of pharmaceutical medicine is produced by experiments on animals, plants AND people. Infact, forget medicines, a lot of cosmetics, shampoos, lotions are also made by experimenting on animals. Not to mention how your gas comes from the oppression and abuse of humans. You don't need these things to survive.
I support medical testing on animals. Its incredibly important and has lead to a massive number of breakthroughs that save lives every single day. To say that the suffering of an animal is more important than the lives of millions of people is short sighted and I believe it is wrong. At the same time I oppose the testing of cosmetics on animals. It can be done other ways and has only minor, superficial, completely replaceable impacts on the over all quality of life of humans.
The difference between the two should be intuitivly seen by almost anyone. While some people can oppose medical testing on moral grounds, believing the lives of animals are equivalent to those of humans, I do not fall into that camp. Bear bile extraction isn't for the good of man. It is cruel, inhumane, and appears to be pointless considering the compounds that might actually have worth can be made synthetically. There is no reason to continue farming it. I have trouble even forming an argument in its defense and I do not count cultural preservation as a valid argument.
Also honestly, since you are german shame on you for this kind of generalization. Its like you have forgotten the history of your country and your continent completely.
No reasonable person will condemn all of China for this incident. Anyone who does is simply put, a bigot. Attempting to condemn all of Germany for that actions of their ancestors makes you a bigot.
Firstly, you are really misreading what I said. I am pointing out that using this kind of generalization shows a complete disregard of the history of his own continent and his own nation. The same can be applied to Germany in much worse terms. Actually the same can be said for the US, given the extent of the native american genocide and slavery. The point was, and is, that condemning china for doing something in such a harsh way is not only bigoted but racist and it completely ignores the history of his own country.
Secondly, scientifically its very hard to find a good reason to continue animal testing. There are not extensive molecular simulations that can analyze the interaction of drugs with the human body. Drugs can be tested for safety in vitro and for efficacy in vivo. But you do understand that the pharma companies that the previous poster was crowing about have tested drugs on unwilling subjects - human subjects? If TCM is immoral, so is modern medicine. Wasn't so long ago that the US government somewhat apologized for infecting prisoners in a foreign country and in their own country with syphilis to test penicillin.
Thirdly, cultural preservation is only not an argument when its your culture subsuming others and other cultures being threatened. Today in the US and Europe people are fighting to protect their culture from a completely ephemeral threat of "sharia". In that past the west has fought many wars, cold and otherwise, to protect their way of life.
But protecting chinese culture and way of life is suddenly immoral and not a valid argument? It sucks that the bear was mistreated so terribly that she committed suicide. I have no argument against that. The solution is not to ban TCM but to look for acceptable ways to extract the bile that are not inhumane.
Likewise I feel that fois gras is an embarrassment to the entire western culture. But I don't say lets condemn any country producing fois gras. I say lets do it more humanely.
Its a disgusting practice, but lets not pretend its a 'Chinese thing'.
Factory farming in America, seal clubbing in Canada, theres examples of insane animal cruelty all over the world, and sadly we buy products every day that support those industries without realizing it.
who else has a slight doubt that the bear killed it's cub from it's understanding of suffering, and inevitable death? and then proceeded to kill itself from an understanding of something that doesn't have to do with physical/mental pain?
That is unbelievable. It's terrible that they were even put into that situation in the first place, but regardless, what that bear did was astonishing.
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