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On January 24 2012 05:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:00 GeyzeR wrote:
The US is a country of financial capitalism, not industrial, like it was in the past. Most of your products cannot compete with even cheaper China and likes countries after cheap energy technology discovery.
If USD would be needed only to buy American products, the US could not just print money to cover its trade deficit and debts. Now the US lives above its means on expenses of the rest of the world. And I do not think that the rest of the world is happy about that.
We're still the world's second largest manufacturer. Our products would be in higher demand if we didn't have to compete with the artificially depressed currencies of many Asian countries. Our services are highly demanded worldwide (we export more services than we import) and would be purchased more if we had a cheaper currency. You have it backwards. The world economy lives high off the hog of the American consumer. Imports are a negative and exports are a positive. Many countries, especially Asian ones, have built their economies on exporting to the US since the "Asian Crisis" in the 90's. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_crisis#Consequences'However, interestingly enough, such nations as Brazil, Russia, and India as well as most of East Asia began copying the Japanese model of weakening their currencies, restructuring their economies so as to create a current account surplus to build large foreign currency reserves. This has led to an ever increasing funding for US treasury bonds, allowing or aiding housing (in 2001–2005) and stock asset bubbles (in 1996–2000) to develop in the United States.' Show nested quote + There is nothing to debate. American main products are not so energy hungry like Chinese. If you consider just industry, the most energy dependent sector, it is both 3.2-3.3 trillions USD, but consider the difference in prices. China has as many times bigger industry as Chinese product cheaper than American one.
If you give China cheap energy, it will flood the world with very cheap products even to higher degree than now. Instead the US sells financial products and services that do not benefit that much from cheap energy.
This technological improvement has nothing to do with an eventual technology that will permit to satisfy a country's need for energy without USD at all. China's main competitive advantage is cheap labor. In the US we rely more on machines to manufacture. Cheaper energy will benefit the US by making our machines cheaper to run.
You guys forget about one other aspect of this. Let's theorize now and say that oil becomes deprecated as a power source. Right now most countries in the world are dependant on oil imports as they don't have their own supply. In order to secure this the countries must also maintain large enough USD reserve for the sole purpose of buying oil. If that is no longer true and all of the countries would suddenly release their USD reserves it would send USD value plumetting down. That's one of the reasons for the so called "Petrodollar War". USA is not interested in oil no longer being the power source of choice as much as it's not interested in oil being traded in anything except USD.
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What is quite bizarre about Zawodny's back-tracking is the fact that he has submitted and received a patent for the LENR method that NASA has been working on. Seems contradictory if he thinks that there is no evidence that LENR is commercially viable.
I quote from the John Ratcliff article I submitted earlier:
+ Show Spoiler +What was even more astounding was the response by the scientist featured in the video, Dr. Zawodny. The reason NASA created the video, and featured Dr. Zawodny, was in support of a patent application submitted by the scientist. The patent, ‘Method for Enhancement of Surface Plasmon Polaritons to Initiate & Sustain LENR’, describes a technique designed to make LENR commercially viable. So, let’s be clear here, Dr. Zawodny files a patent which describes a technique designed to make LENR commercially viable and easily replicable. He appears in the NASA video in which he makes clear LENR is a real phenomenon and that it holds promise to transform the energy infrastructure of the planet. He then makes a post on his own blog debunking his own patent and his own video! He claims that there is no evidence whatsoever that LENR is commercially viable and, moreover, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence but, apparently, that doesn’t apply to himself? It truly boggles the mind to read a scientist debunking his own work. To be clear, this is a man who has applied for a patent for a technique which can reliably reproduce and sustain an LENR reaction and then, on his own blog post, states there is no evidence that anyone has achieved this!? He also refused to respond to emails, inquiries, or even allow comments to his highly contradictory statements. Continue reading on Examiner.com Andrea Rossi : Sinner or Saint? - St. Louis Paranormal | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/paranormal-in-st-louis/andrea-rossi-sinner-or-saint#ixzz1kK7GBaV1
There is something fishy going on at NASA.
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On January 24 2012 07:37 ElMeanYo wrote:What is quite bizarre about Zawodny's back-tracking is the fact that he has submitted and received a patent for the LENR method that NASA has been working on. Seems contradictory if he thinks that there is no evidence that LENR is commercially viable. I quote from the John Ratcliff article I submitted earlier: + Show Spoiler +What was even more astounding was the response by the scientist featured in the video, Dr. Zawodny. The reason NASA created the video, and featured Dr. Zawodny, was in support of a patent application submitted by the scientist. The patent, ‘Method for Enhancement of Surface Plasmon Polaritons to Initiate & Sustain LENR’, describes a technique designed to make LENR commercially viable. So, let’s be clear here, Dr. Zawodny files a patent which describes a technique designed to make LENR commercially viable and easily replicable. He appears in the NASA video in which he makes clear LENR is a real phenomenon and that it holds promise to transform the energy infrastructure of the planet. He then makes a post on his own blog debunking his own patent and his own video! He claims that there is no evidence whatsoever that LENR is commercially viable and, moreover, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence but, apparently, that doesn’t apply to himself? It truly boggles the mind to read a scientist debunking his own work. To be clear, this is a man who has applied for a patent for a technique which can reliably reproduce and sustain an LENR reaction and then, on his own blog post, states there is no evidence that anyone has achieved this!? He also refused to respond to emails, inquiries, or even allow comments to his highly contradictory statements. Continue reading on Examiner.com Andrea Rossi : Sinner or Saint? - St. Louis Paranormal | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/paranormal-in-st-louis/andrea-rossi-sinner-or-saint#ixzz1kK7GBaV1There is something fishy going on at NASA.
You don't need to postulate something fishy. People patent things all the time that aren't necessarily commercially viable or even ever used in a device that is. Just look up all of Steve Jobs' patents. That they're doing research on LENR doesn't imply that it's commercially viable. Of course if you patent an LENR MHS device, you hope that your work will lead to a viable device, but I see no reason at all to assume he's lying about everything. Occam's razer. The simplest conclusion is that they're doing research but there isn't anything commercially viable yet.
What reason would they have to lie about it? They already have a patent.
And seriously...
John Ratcliff "Paranormal Examiner", argues that something fishy is going on at NASA because they filed a patent, and then posted that their patent is of a device that is not yet commercially viable, implying that they're lying and hiding a commercially viable device, and it is part of a big cover up by the hot-fusion lobby. In order to take this paranormal examiner at face value I need to imagine a global conspiracy, I need to assume NASA is lying, I need to assume that the wealth of evidence regarding LENR is wrong and being suppressed... none of which have any evidence at all...
vs.
Dr. Zawodny, senior researcher at NASA, well known and regarded, published in many peer-reviewed journal, an expert in his area, writes in his own blog about a video that he created, cites related studies, explains the video as NASA policy, links to the policy directive in question, gives background to the study, refers to theory and talks he has given on related areas... There are literally no assumptions that need to be made here, no imaginary, unseen forces at work...
tldr; NASA is doing research on LENR. It is interesting but they haven't produced anything commercially viable yet, though they hope to in the future, and they feel that there is enough evidence for that possibility that they are okay to invest in research in it.
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On January 24 2012 10:38 caradoc wrote:
NASA is doing research on LENR. It is interesting but they haven't produced anything commercially viable yet, though they hope to in the future, and they feel that there is enough evidence for that possibility that they are okay to invest in research in it.
I hope you are right.
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This is a hoax.
User was warned for this post
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On January 24 2012 17:43 Zholistic wrote:
This is a hoax.
Have you even read the thread and mod warning or have you just read the topic and posted your deep thoughts, facts and arguments without thinking?
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On January 24 2012 05:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
We're still the world's second largest manufacturer. Our products would be in higher demand if we didn't have to compete with the artificially depressed currencies of many Asian countries. Our services are highly demanded worldwide (we export more services than we import) and would be purchased more if we had a cheaper currency.
Too bad the USA rulers do not listen to you, protecting USD instead with all that unnecessary wars and moving manufacturing overseas, cutting away American jobs...
Another real thing is energy from Thorium. I am going to collect info about this. It was discovered back in the seventies in USSR, but strangely it is still not widespread...
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Thanks for these links.
Just finished the YT and reading the pdf now. INteresting stuff
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On January 24 2012 19:33 GeyzeR wrote:
Another real thing is energy from Thorium. I am going to collect info about this. It was discovered back in the seventies in USSR, but strangely it is still not widespread...
Not widespread since everyone preferred to focus on uranium fuel instead because it lends itself better for nuclear bombs.
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On January 24 2012 15:21 ElMeanYo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 10:38 caradoc wrote:
NASA is doing research on LENR. It is interesting but they haven't produced anything commercially viable yet, though they hope to in the future, and they feel that there is enough evidence for that possibility that they are okay to invest in research in it.
I hope you are right.
After thinking about this a little more, here’s my take on it: Zawodny approaches his boss and gives him a big part of the action... maybe gives his employees some small part too. Boss tells NASA lawyers to go file the patent, which is a variation of Ni-H LENR. They know it doesn't work that well and is rather unstable so they back-track a little with a disclaimer on Zawodny's site.
If anything significant happens with LENR these guys will have been there first using NASA fees and lawyers. Even if they only get a small percentage of the revenue generated from any patents they are rich men. Rossi does the rest, or doesn’t. It’s the old Microsoft vs Apple strategy: “good idea glad I thought of it”.
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On January 24 2012 05:40 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 24 2012 05:00 GeyzeR wrote:
The US is a country of financial capitalism, not industrial, like it was in the past. Most of your products cannot compete with even cheaper China and likes countries after cheap energy technology discovery.
If USD would be needed only to buy American products, the US could not just print money to cover its trade deficit and debts. Now the US lives above its means on expenses of the rest of the world. And I do not think that the rest of the world is happy about that.
We're still the world's second largest manufacturer. Our products would be in higher demand if we didn't have to compete with the artificially depressed currencies of many Asian countries. Our services are highly demanded worldwide (we export more services than we import) and would be purchased more if we had a cheaper currency. You have it backwards. The world economy lives high off the hog of the American consumer. Imports are a negative and exports are a positive. Many countries, especially Asian ones, have built their economies on exporting to the US since the "Asian Crisis" in the 90's. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_crisis#Consequences'However, interestingly enough, such nations as Brazil, Russia, and India as well as most of East Asia began copying the Japanese model of weakening their currencies, restructuring their economies so as to create a current account surplus to build large foreign currency reserves. This has led to an ever increasing funding for US treasury bonds, allowing or aiding housing (in 2001–2005) and stock asset bubbles (in 1996–2000) to develop in the United States.' There is nothing to debate. American main products are not so energy hungry like Chinese. If you consider just industry, the most energy dependent sector, it is both 3.2-3.3 trillions USD, but consider the difference in prices. China has as many times bigger industry as Chinese product cheaper than American one.
If you give China cheap energy, it will flood the world with very cheap products even to higher degree than now. Instead the US sells financial products and services that do not benefit that much from cheap energy.
This technological improvement has nothing to do with an eventual technology that will permit to satisfy a country's need for energy without USD at all. China's main competitive advantage is cheap labor. In the US we rely more on machines to manufacture. Cheaper energy will benefit the US by making our machines cheaper to run. You guys forget about one other aspect of this. Let's theorize now and say that oil becomes deprecated as a power source. Right now most countries in the world are dependant on oil imports as they don't have their own supply. In order to secure this the countries must also maintain large enough USD reserve for the sole purpose of buying oil. If that is no longer true and all of the countries would suddenly release their USD reserves it would send USD value plumetting down. That's one of the reasons for the so called "Petrodollar War". USA is not interested in oil no longer being the power source of choice as much as it's not interested in oil being traded in anything except USD.
Because they wouldn't just "release" their USD reserves. They would have to get rid of their reserves by buying some other asset that is denominated in USD. So they would either buy goods / services from the US which would help our economy or buy financial assets which would bid up the price for those assets. Alternatively they could swap their USD for another currency but they'd be stuck with the same issue of needing something to buy with the currency. Sure, it would be a concern but not a big enough one to lose sleep over as it would be entirely manageable.
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On January 24 2012 19:33 GeyzeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
We're still the world's second largest manufacturer. Our products would be in higher demand if we didn't have to compete with the artificially depressed currencies of many Asian countries. Our services are highly demanded worldwide (we export more services than we import) and would be purchased more if we had a cheaper currency. Too bad the USA rulers do not listen to you, protecting USD instead with all that unnecessary wars and moving manufacturing overseas, cutting away American jobs...
Wars and moving manufacturing overseas would, if anything, make the USD a weaker currency...
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this is likely a hoax, none of the tests showed a statistically solid gain of energy. while nickel-hydrogen based LENR makes sense (via Widom Larsen Theory, as shown by NASA) there is so much incosistency with results and so much black-boxing that it seems ludicrous to genuinely believe that something was accomplished. While I doubt Rossi has any intention to scam, it seems more likely to me that he had something that doesn't quite do anything yet.
also, stop talking about "economics"
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That article isn't even biased because it doesn't pretend to be real journalism. It's purely polemical in nature.
Then his next article indicates he actually believes there is virtually no chance rossi is legit. Why he massaged the man's balls so thoroughly in this one, than, is incomprehensible to me.
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Time for some updates:
1) Some time ago I posted a link which showed that MIT was to hold a course about LENR. Cold Fusion Times brings us the following news:
January 30-31, 2012 - Cambridge, MA. - As part of the IAP Course on COLD FUSION at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy, and Prof. Peter Hagelstein demonstrated cold fusion openly for scientists and engineers. The demonstration was a two day part of the detailed, yet overview, seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz, and followed the first open demonstrations of cold fusion at MIT in 2003. This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10, much larger than the previous open demonstration. This exhibition is also remarkable because it confirmed the role of the nanoengineered lattice in enabling the CF/LANR activity. It followed Prof. Hagelstein sharing his breakthrough explanatory theory of cold fusion during the first 5 days. The NANOR technology of JET Energy may have already begun to shatter a few preconceived notions of skeptics and cold fusioneers.
An energy gain of 10 is good enough for commercial application of the technology and makes Rossi's claims more credible (he guarantees an energy gain of 6 or higher).
2) Defkalion GT has invited qualified people to perform independent tests of their Hyperion device (the Hyperion is a Ni-H LENR reactor similar to the e-cat). Read the press release here.
Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen.
PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius.
As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product’s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests.
With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on “bare” Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled.
3) According to Prof. Francesco Celani, LENR researcher, the CERN will hold a LENR seminar on March 22. Source (in Italian).
4) The R&D contract between Rossi and the University of Bologna fell through. Source (in Italian)
- The contract ended because Rossi never paid the first rate.
- The University of Bologna is still interested in the e-cat and is willing to perform independent validation with subsequent publication of results.
Mats Lewan at Ny Teknik reports that a new research deal is being worked out in collaboration with National Instruments and Rossi.
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On February 02 2012 05:00 Traeon wrote:Time for some updates: 1) Some time ago I posted a link which showed that MIT was to hold a course about LENR. Cold Fusion Times brings us the following news: Show nested quote +January 30-31, 2012 - Cambridge, MA. - As part of the IAP Course on COLD FUSION at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy, and Prof. Peter Hagelstein demonstrated cold fusion openly for scientists and engineers. The demonstration was a two day part of the detailed, yet overview, seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz, and followed the first open demonstrations of cold fusion at MIT in 2003. This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10, much larger than the previous open demonstration. This exhibition is also remarkable because it confirmed the role of the nanoengineered lattice in enabling the CF/LANR activity. It followed Prof. Hagelstein sharing his breakthrough explanatory theory of cold fusion during the first 5 days. The NANOR technology of JET Energy may have already begun to shatter a few preconceived notions of skeptics and cold fusioneers. An energy gain of 10 is good enough for commercial application of the technology and makes Rossi's claims more credible (he guarantees an energy gain of 6 or higher). 2) Defkalion GT has invited qualified people to perform independent tests of their Hyperion device (the Hyperion is a Ni-H LENR reactor similar to the e-cat). Read the press release here.Show nested quote +Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen.
PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius.
As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product’s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests.
With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on “bare” Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled. 3) According to Prof. Francesco Celani, LENR researcher, the CERN will hold a LENR seminar on March 22. Source (in Italian). 4) The R&D contract between Rossi and the University of Bologna fell through. Source (in Italian)- The contract ended because Rossi never paid the first rate. - The University of Bologna is still interested in the e-cat and is willing to perform independent validation with subsequent publication of results. Mats Lewan at Ny Teknik reports that a new research deal is being worked out in collaboration with National Instruments and Rossi.
Can you or anyone versed in the history of LENR/cold fusion explain what all this news accumulating is suggesting (or not suggesting)?
From my elementary understanding it's starting to really seem as if cold fusion was an outright suppressed science in the past.
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On February 02 2012 05:16 forgottendreams wrote:
Can you or anyone versed in the history of LENR/cold fusion explain what all this news accumulating is suggesting (or not suggesting)?
From my elementary understanding it's starting to really seem as if cold fusion was an outright suppressed science.
It was a combination of things.
Fleischmann and Pons, the original discoverers, made the mistake of make a public announcements before publishing their research paper. It was difficult to replicate the effect because the exact conditions under which it could occur were not known. An experiment required weeks of work and many preparatory steps. Many people failed to replicate because they did not follow the indicated steps. Even those that did it correctly only had a chance of it working at all. When it worked, it produced only small amounts of excess heat relative to the input energy.
So many disbelieved that it was real because they couldn't get it to work in their own lab.
One group attempting to replicate the effect was the hot fusion lab at the MIT. According to Dr. Eugene Mallove (MIT News Office 1987-1991, they succeeded but someone changed the data to make it look like a mistake, bad science or even deception, from Fleischmann and Pons' side.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55458169/Mallove-MIT-Report
The media picked the MIT report up and and slammed cold fusion hard. Cold fusion became "junk science". Anyone associating with cold fusion had to fear for his or her scientific reputation.
However some of those few who had succeeded in replicating the effect continued to work on it. Much progress has been made since then but cold fusion, or LENR as it is often called now, continues to be seen by most as junk science (even though very few people actually inform themselves about it). LENR is slowly starting to be accepted more, the MIT course and CERN seminar being the latest examples.
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I've been reading up on this, and everytime this thread pops up I hope that there's finally an answer to this enigma... god damnit -_ -
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On February 02 2012 05:52 Coal wrote:
I've been reading up on this, and everytime this thread pops up I hope that there's finally an answer to this enigma... god damnit -_ -
This thread has had me on tenterhooks since it was created!
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On February 02 2012 05:16 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 05:00 Traeon wrote:Time for some updates: 1) Some time ago I posted a link which showed that MIT was to hold a course about LENR. Cold Fusion Times brings us the following news: January 30-31, 2012 - Cambridge, MA. - As part of the IAP Course on COLD FUSION at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy, and Prof. Peter Hagelstein demonstrated cold fusion openly for scientists and engineers. The demonstration was a two day part of the detailed, yet overview, seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz, and followed the first open demonstrations of cold fusion at MIT in 2003. This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10, much larger than the previous open demonstration. This exhibition is also remarkable because it confirmed the role of the nanoengineered lattice in enabling the CF/LANR activity. It followed Prof. Hagelstein sharing his breakthrough explanatory theory of cold fusion during the first 5 days. The NANOR technology of JET Energy may have already begun to shatter a few preconceived notions of skeptics and cold fusioneers. An energy gain of 10 is good enough for commercial application of the technology and makes Rossi's claims more credible (he guarantees an energy gain of 6 or higher). 2) Defkalion GT has invited qualified people to perform independent tests of their Hyperion device (the Hyperion is a Ni-H LENR reactor similar to the e-cat). Read the press release here.Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen.
PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius.
As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product’s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests.
With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on “bare” Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled. 3) According to Prof. Francesco Celani, LENR researcher, the CERN will hold a LENR seminar on March 22. Source (in Italian). 4) The R&D contract between Rossi and the University of Bologna fell through. Source (in Italian)- The contract ended because Rossi never paid the first rate. - The University of Bologna is still interested in the e-cat and is willing to perform independent validation with subsequent publication of results. Mats Lewan at Ny Teknik reports that a new research deal is being worked out in collaboration with National Instruments and Rossi. Can you or anyone versed in the history of LENR/cold fusion explain what all this news accumulating is suggesting (or not suggesting)? From my elementary understanding it's starting to really seem as if cold fusion was an outright suppressed science in the past.
Please remember the information in this thread is self selecting, that is, there is no incentive for it to get bumped based on a continuing lack of evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LENR
Be sure to read the talk page as well.
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EPT
