On July 25 2011 09:34 qwaykee wrote: i don't understand why you are discussing whether he is a christian or not. does it really matter? the guy murdered 90+ people and that's what you're worried about. please fill me in on what i seem to not understand. religion/christianity in norway is a joke anyways
I think it is important to correct miss information and understandings of such a brutal psychotic killer.
Also, I consider myself a fundamentalist Christian, and It's just wrong to bring him into the same category. It's like someone stating they are in the same family as you, and others accepting it as true. You would of course try to correct those who believe so with "I've never know this man, He doesn't have the same blood as me at all"
Yes, except that no one chooses their family so the parallel is not that good. It's like saying he had blond hair, you have blond hair, and you feel bed being in the same category. No one would think like that anyway (or if they do, they got a problem...) Religion however, like politics, is a mental construct and (most of the time) a personal choice. No one puts you in the same category as him, but that doesn't mean that fundamentalist christian ideas weren't in his mind, that he wasn't part of that group, and that his religion wasn't part of the reason why he acted like he did. If we can't discuss his religious background because some people will be hurt and pretend "he was not really part of my religious community so you can't discuss it", passed the fact that you can't decide if he was a fundamentalist Christian (only "God" can I guess), then we can't discuss his political ideas either because many people will be hurt too, and so on and so on...and then we're left with nothing to discuss about because he probably got at least one thing in common with pretty much all of us. His religion probably had more influence on his "politics" than his choice of computer games, or his favourite color, so it seems to me that it should be discussed. I am not saying it did influence him (I can't prove it), but religion seemed to be a recurrent topic in his speech/iconography so it's gotta be discussed for now...
On July 25 2011 08:05 IzieBoy wrote: I think it's truly saddening that he targeted basically innocents. I don't see the relation between youth activists and Islam. I send my condolences to the victims.
Let me elaborate; Breivik targeted those youths because they are the next generation of politicians of the Norwegian Labour Party. It seems to me that this whole tragedy is a personal vendetta to cripple the Government (which has been moslty led by The Labour Party post-WWII to present) who, in Breviks eyes, has f***ed up our country. Thats why he also chose to bomb the Government district in Oslo to distract the police, he hit two birds with stone.
In the manifesto it says that he resorted to violence as a last option because everything else he had tried, failed. Everything is his attempt to show us that our government has failed the nation and our national inheritance as norwegians, with a liberal immigration policy etc. Basically anyone from a third world country (Muslims as well as others) can move here and get free welfare, as long as they claim they are refugees.
And above all, he proves that the justice system is flawed because he, who murdered over 90 poeple with cold blood, can only get a sentence of max. 21 years. And while he's in jail, he lives a hotel life and has access to free education and whatnot.
This guy is not insane, but rather driven into madness by his beliefs. This is only what i've made out of watching the news non-stop the past two days and what i think is the reason behind what happened. And by the way, i'm not sympathizing with him, his actions were gruesome and disgusting. All i'm saying is that i somewhat agree with his beliefs.... screw being politically correct, LOL.
When i woke up the day after it happened and discovered that the kill-count had raised from 10 to 90 throughout the night, i almost threw up. All i could do was wander around aimlessly, thinking about the victims and their families. I was lucky enough and didn't have any acquaintanses at Utøya.
TL;DR Breivik tried to cripple the government because he STRONGLY disagrees with the way they reign, and unfortunatly he chose to use violence and kill people.
From what I've heard (obviously not as much as you since I can't read norwegian) you've come to the same conclusion that I did about his intent.
I also sympathize with the fact that you agree with his beliefs against multiculturalism. In the U.S. we have had the same debates, except we just dislike all immigrants. In the two years I've been thinking heavily on politics though, I have not really been able to form a clear opinion on how a developed nation (which attracts immigrants from less developed or more dangerous nations) can humanely deal with immigrants who wish to retain their nationalist identity. I agree with Anders in that multiculturalism(as he calls it) is going to be a major problem in the next few decades for developing countries. This is not to say that immigrants negatively affect a nation, but to say that immigrants who: 1. Are unable to communicate effectively in the native language 2. Have no knowledge of the local culture 3. Do not have a job before moving to a new country <----- this point is ehhh, will re-evaluate later will most generally have a negative impact on that society. I think the number of immigrants who display #1 and #2 should be limited in number per year, because what currently happens is that 1. Immigrants from nation x settle in district x 2. District X begins to attract more immigrants that speak the language of Nation X 3. The population size of district x swells in population size(often leading to it becoming a ghetto/whatever you want to call the poor side of your town) 4. District x becomes a mini Nation X, which means that the people of district X have little incentive to assimilate.
Again, I am not saying that I have a way to address the issue, I'm just stating what the issue was that Anders brought up. Also I am not saying that the issue has validity BECAUSE Anders brought it up. It is an issue that has been the subject of much debate in Europe(Middle east immigrants) and the US(Mexican Immigrants).
You really have no idea about the history of ethnic enclaves in the United States do you? Little Italy? Jewish neighborhoods in New York? Chinatown? Irish neighborhoods...etc. Their kids end up assimilating. It doesn't happen in a single generation. Immigrant enclaves have existed in this country since the very beginning, they all eventually just end up getting absorbed into the country as a whole and turned into semi tourist destinations as the offspring of the older generations move out and disperse and assimilate. Hell, it's happening right now in practically every Chinatown where the average resident's age is over 60.
The concerns this guy had are very much contingent upon how quickly the Muslim populations in Europe secularize. With education and secularization almost always comes lower birthrates. Though you could segue this into a discussion on how quickly they are secularizing. Hopefully some of our European friends can enlighten us on this.
Have you ever seen demographic maps of US cities? Pretty much puts a fork in the idea people don't voluntarily segregate themselves.
Oh I'm not going to pretend that the U.S. is some sort of racial utopia. At the very least after (usually just one) generation, the descendants of immigrants here typically are able to interact with the rest of society as a whole and generally respect/adhere to the core principles of their country of birth. Their worldview also tends to differ greatly from the past generations and is more or less congruent with other citizens who have been there for generations. Obviously there are exceptions, but I'd confidently say this is the case most of the time at least here in America.
People seem to think that "accepting the new countries values" is always a good thing, we need new people who come from the outside to come in and question our way of living, if their way of living is better then how are we supposed to know unless anyone informs us?
I´m not saying that Saudi Arabia is amazing, I think it´s horrible and I think that Norway for instance is one of the best countries in the world, I´m just saying that accepting the system should not be a part of being a member of society. If that was the case me, a 100% purebred swede with blond hair, blue eyes and the whole schwabang, should not be considered a swede. Which I am.
Basically, people would rather have their culture changed by the introspection and agitation of their own people, rather than by outsiders.
If its not right for the west to do it to africa and the middle east, its not right when the shoe is on the other foot.
Please ppl, when you talk about culture, remember what is actually is in todays reallity.
In germany traditional culture would be lederhosen, christianity, to eat weiswurst and listen to german folksmusic. I have nothing in common with this culture. On the other hand I have a muslim friend who plays videogames all day and when I see him eating pork and ask him about it he answers "I am in scientist, its highly unlikely that god exists anyway, its even more unlikely that he gives a shit about what ppl eat nowerdays, so I take the risk." I have more in commonwith him, than with any "german" culture. Please stop talking about culture as if its some fix thing that can be "taken over" or "clash against each other". We have to fight the problems in our society (criminality, ignorance, unemployment, extremism...) where there actually exist, not over some mystical figuere called cultural identity.
On July 25 2011 13:25 Shikyo wrote: The Finnish news says that the suspect wants to show up into the court wearing his uniform, but that they don't know what kind of a uniform he'd be wearing.
I really wonder, did the press read the manifest?
"The three primary tasks expected from your defence attorney
1. Willingness to facilitate you logistically The candidate must be willing to order the components that make out the Justiciar Knight uniform for you and he/she must then compensate a tailor to assemble it. This task will take him several hours so he should be prepared to invest that time. He must understand that wearing our uniform during trial is an essential aspect of furthering our cause and he must be willing to facilitate you."
I'm wondering if they'll make it public. That'd be exactly what he wants, obviously. I'm not sure if the court would like to have it closed as it's such a significant crime. There's speculation about the safety of the suspect as if the trial is public the people might want to attack the suspect and such.
I'm actually really curious about today. Will he appear in an uniform like that and what will he say? Will he seriously hold a propaganda speech about his ideals and attempt to convince everyone that what he's doing is for the greater good?
Does anyone know at what time the trial is scheduled to be?
Many of the press has read the manifest, and there is a huge discussion about how we should treat the upcoming propaganda he is surely to deliver. Should the press report it all? Should we simply close the doors and let him sit there alone with his attorney and the judge/jury?
This was just a very short summary of a huge debate in the media and through facebook-groups and so on.
(Norwegian time) - 12:00 today there is one minute of silence in the Nordic countries - 13:00 today there is a "fengslingsmøte" in Norwegian ("remand hearing")? - 18:00 there is a "march of roses" - people forming a parade with flowers I guess. Taken from: http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article3197180.ece
Sorry if this was posted, I simply can't go through this whole thread.
On July 25 2011 17:34 esperanto wrote: Please ppl, when you talk about culture, remember what is actually is in todays reallity.
In germany traditional culture would be lederhosen, christianity, to eat weiswurst and listen to german folksmusic. I have nothing in common with this culture. On the other hand I have a muslim friend who plays videogames all day and when I see him eating pork and ask him about it he answers "I am in scientist, its highly unlikely that god exists anyway, its even more unlikely that he gives a shit about what ppl eat nowerdays, so I take the risk." I have more in commonwith him, than with any "german" culture. Please stop talking about culture as if its some fix thing that can be "taken over" or "clash against each other". We have to fight the problems in our society (criminality, ignorance, unemployment, extremism...) where there actually exist, not over some mystical figuere called cultural identity.
While I agree with you to some degree, I must insert that there is much more to any culture than what you stated (and that is bavarian, not german).
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
I believe there's another thread that has the same content in the general section? Not sure.
There are millions who play video games, but I don't see them going around hunting down people with weaponry of any kind... or at least en mass...
There's games like man hunt where you kill Dumb AI opponents ( who can't see you in the shadows apparently ) in all sorts of ways... but those people are still sane...
There's those gta games where some missions require the player to burn some people or mall down... or plant a bomb and get out... yet there are hardly any who would go and replicate those in real life...
It's not so simple as point and shoot with a real gun unless he was at point blank range or within a few meters distance...
Sad news that one crazed gunmen opened fire on innocent people...
...not to mention that firing a weapon IRL is something completely different or even all the mental barricades you have to face to actually hurt or even kill a human being.
If someone wants to kill he will find means and ways to do it. If someone does not want to kill, something like the airport level won't make him go out and go on a killing spree.
tbh the discussion can be ended with the above paragraph, I really think it is THAT simple.
Edit: Part of me still thinks he put a shooter and WoW out there not because he used it in the ways he describes but to stereotype people. Keep in mind that the population of "gamers" correlates a lot with people who advocate "free speech" and have a tendency towards not being the most social beings out there. He's polarizing. Not more, not less.
On July 25 2011 17:34 esperanto wrote: Please ppl, when you talk about culture, remember what is actually is in todays reallity.
In germany traditional culture would be lederhosen, christianity, to eat weiswurst and listen to german folksmusic. I have nothing in common with this culture. On the other hand I have a muslim friend who plays videogames all day and when I see him eating pork and ask him about it he answers "I am in scientist, its highly unlikely that god exists anyway, its even more unlikely that he gives a shit about what ppl eat nowerdays, so I take the risk." I have more in commonwith him, than with any "german" culture. Please stop talking about culture as if its some fix thing that can be "taken over" or "clash against each other". We have to fight the problems in our society (criminality, ignorance, unemployment, extremism...) where there actually exist, not over some mystical figuere called cultural identity.
While I agree with you to some degree, I must insert that there is much more to any culture than what you stated (and that is bavarian, not german).
And cultural differences are one of the most interesting things in this world. If you didn't know about your friend's background, and if his cultural background didn't exist, you couldn't even have told us that story. Get the cultural aspect out of your text and there's nothing left but sthg like : my friend eats pork and play videogames all day. I'm not saying it's a bad life, but something got lost.
On top of that, the whole shitstorm of this week-end happened because of "cultural" differences. What else do you wanna discuss about on a forum on this specific topic ? How do you understand this guy without discussing it ? I wouldn't mind discussing unemployment, extremism or criminality, excluding culture out of it all, but please be more specific as to how they relate to the events and what you wanna discuss about? I don't know how you discuss "ignorance" without discussing culture but that's sthg else.
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
^^^There is the link for an article and video discussing this^^^
I feel for the Norwegian people and grieve for anyone who has lost a friend, family member or relative. ;(
Using Modern Warfare 2 as a practice platform is a shock for me. Modern Warfare 2 alone isn't enough to be able to kill over 90 people. Dr. Harrison Graham Pope Jr., a leading expert, told VG (Norwegian Newspaper) that he felt invincible as a result of using anabolic steroids.
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
^^^There is the link for an article and video discussing this^^^
I feel for the Norwegian people and grieve for anyone who has lost a friend, family member or relative. ;(
The fact is that he considered it practice, meaning he already planned beforehand that he would kill people. Just because he's insane and considers shooting virtual people in a virtual world to be "training" for reality, does not say anything about the game. Nothing would have changed if he had not played that game or any other.
I was just watching the news on TV, and i heard that this crazy man was using the Airport level from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as target practice. If you guys have played this game and specifically this level, please leave your thoughts on this, and whether you think other people also are this crazy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, the COD level is basically an under-cover spy and a bunch of Russians walk into an airport, pull out an LMG, light-machine gun, and rip everyone up to shreds as the airport is full of people.
please discuss this as i think this is completely wrong and insane.
^^^There is the link for an article and video discussing this^^^
I feel for the Norwegian people and grieve for anyone who has lost a friend, family member or relative. ;(
The guy had planned this for 9 years, so we can safely assume he whould had done it with or without the influence of videogames. [Hint, MW2 didn't exist 9 years ago]
Just went on one of the biggest Swedish forums and there are already threads celebrating the murderer as a hero for his nation and saying that all the deaths were justified. I actually hesitate ever since Friday to look up the "hottest threads" on there because I knew the ultra-nationalistic propaganda would start to pop up. It makes me sick seeing how much ground right winged thoughts are getting in our society and especially on the Internet.
On July 25 2011 18:33 NotSupporting wrote: Just went on one of the biggest Swedish forums and there are already threads celebrating the murderer as a hero for his nation and saying that all the deaths were justified. I actually hesitate ever since Friday to look up the "hottest threads" on there because I knew the ultra-nationalistic propaganda would start to pop up. It makes me sick seeing how much ground right winged thoughts are getting in our society and especially on the Internet.
On July 25 2011 17:34 esperanto wrote: Please ppl, when you talk about culture, remember what is actually is in todays reallity.
In germany traditional culture would be lederhosen, christianity, to eat weiswurst and listen to german folksmusic. I have nothing in common with this culture. On the other hand I have a muslim friend who plays videogames all day and when I see him eating pork and ask him about it he answers "I am in scientist, its highly unlikely that god exists anyway, its even more unlikely that he gives a shit about what ppl eat nowerdays, so I take the risk." I have more in commonwith him, than with any "german" culture. Please stop talking about culture as if its some fix thing that can be "taken over" or "clash against each other". We have to fight the problems in our society (criminality, ignorance, unemployment, extremism...) where there actually exist, not over some mystical figuere called cultural identity.
On July 25 2011 18:33 NotSupporting wrote: Just went on one of the biggest Swedish forums and there are already threads celebrating the murderer as a hero for his nation and saying that all the deaths were justified. I actually hesitate ever since Friday to look up the "hottest threads" on there because I knew the ultra-nationalistic propaganda would start to pop up. It makes me sick seeing how much ground right winged thoughts are getting in our society and especially on the Internet.
I'm pretty right wing and that fucking disgusts me. Point is we aren't all cunts.
EPT
