EPT[Old] The massacre in Norway - Page 107
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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! | ||
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kjetulf
Norway62 Posts
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On July 25 2011 09:38 doodlz wrote: Let me elaborate; Breivik targeted those youths because they are the next generation of politicians of the Norwegian Labour Party. It seems to me that this whole tragedy is a personal vendetta to cripple the Government (which has been moslty led by The Labour Party post-WWII to present) who, in Breviks eyes, has f***ed up our country. Thats why he also chose to bomb the Government district in Oslo to distract the police, he hit two birds with stone. In the manifesto it says that he resorted to violence as a last option because everything else he had tried, failed. Everything is his attempt to show us that our government has failed the nation and our national inheritance as norwegians, with a liberal immigration policy etc. Basically anyone from a third world country (Muslims as well as others) can move here and get free welfare, as long as they claim they are refugees. And above all, he proves that the justice system is flawed because he, who murdered over 90 poeple with cold blood, can only get a sentence of max. 21 years. And while he's in jail, he lives a hotel life and has access to free education and whatnot. This guy is not insane, but rather driven into madness by his beliefs. This is only what i've made out of watching the news non-stop the past two days and what i think is the reason behind what happened. And by the way, i'm not sympathizing with him, his actions were gruesome and disgusting. All i'm saying is that i somewhat agree with his beliefs.... screw being politically correct, LOL. When i woke up the day after it happened and discovered that the kill-count had raised from 10 to 90 throughout the night, i almost threw up. All i could do was wander around aimlessly, thinking about the victims and their families. I was lucky enough and didn't have any acquaintanses at Utøya. TL;DR Breivik tried to cripple the government because he STRONGLY disagrees with the way they reign, and unfortunatly he chose to use violence and kill people. From what I've heard (obviously not as much as you since I can't read norwegian) you've come to the same conclusion that I did about his intent. I also sympathize with the fact that you agree with his beliefs against multiculturalism. In the U.S. we have had the same debates, except we just dislike all immigrants. In the two years I've been thinking heavily on politics though, I have not really been able to form a clear opinion on how a developed nation (which attracts immigrants from less developed or more dangerous nations) can humanely deal with immigrants who wish to retain their nationalist identity. I agree with Anders in that multiculturalism(as he calls it) is going to be a major problem in the next few decades for developing countries. This is not to say that immigrants negatively affect a nation, but to say that immigrants who: 1. Are unable to communicate effectively in the native language 2. Have no knowledge of the local culture 3. Do not have a job before moving to a new country <----- this point is ehhh, will re-evaluate later will most generally have a negative impact on that society. I think the number of immigrants who display #1 and #2 should be limited in number per year, because what currently happens is that 1. Immigrants from nation x settle in district x 2. District X begins to attract more immigrants that speak the language of Nation X 3. The population size of district x increases quickly(often leading to it becoming a ghetto/whatever you want to call the poor side of your town) 4. District x becomes a mini Nation X, which means that the people of district X have little incentive to assimilate. Again, I am not saying that I have a way to address the issue, I'm just stating what the issue was that Anders brought up. Also I am not saying that the issue has validity BECAUSE Anders brought it up. It is an issue that has been the subject of much debate in Europe(Middle east immigrants) and the US(Mexican Immigrants). EDIT: 3. The population size of district x swells in population size Good sentence, loved reading it. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:04 Jormundr wrote: From what I've heard (obviously not as much as you since I can't read norwegian) you've come to the same conclusion that I did about his intent. I also sympathize with the fact that you agree with his beliefs against multiculturalism. In the U.S. we have had the same debates, except we just dislike all immigrants. In the two years I've been thinking heavily on politics though, I have not really been able to form a clear opinion on how a developed nation (which attracts immigrants from less developed or more dangerous nations) can humanely deal with immigrants who wish to retain their nationalist identity. I agree with Anders in that multiculturalism(as he calls it) is going to be a major problem in the next few decades for developing countries. This is not to say that immigrants negatively affect a nation, but to say that immigrants who: 1. Are unable to communicate effectively in the native language 2. Have no knowledge of the local culture 3. Do not have a job before moving to a new country <----- this point is ehhh, will re-evaluate later will most generally have a negative impact on that society. I think the number of immigrants who display #1 and #2 should be limited in number per year, because what currently happens is that 1. Immigrants from nation x settle in district x 2. District X begins to attract more immigrants that speak the language of Nation X 3. The population size of district x swells in population size(often leading to it becoming a ghetto/whatever you want to call the poor side of your town) 4. District x becomes a mini Nation X, which means that the people of district X have little incentive to assimilate. Again, I am not saying that I have a way to address the issue, I'm just stating what the issue was that Anders brought up. Also I am not saying that the issue has validity BECAUSE Anders brought it up. It is an issue that has been the subject of much debate in Europe(Middle east immigrants) and the US(Mexican Immigrants). You really have no idea about the history of ethnic enclaves in the United States do you? Little Italy? Jewish neighborhoods in New York? Chinatown? Irish neighborhoods...etc. Their kids end up assimilating. It doesn't happen in a single generation. Immigrant enclaves have existed in this country since the very beginning, they all eventually just end up getting absorbed into the country as a whole and turned into semi tourist destinations as the offspring of the older generations move out and disperse and assimilate. Hell, it's happening right now in practically every Chinatown where the average resident's age is over 60. The concerns this guy had are very much contingent upon how quickly the Muslim populations in Europe secularize. With education and secularization almost always comes lower birthrates. Though you could segue this into a discussion on how quickly they are secularizing. Hopefully some of our European friends can enlighten us on this. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:07 Ksi wrote: You really have no idea about the history of ethnic enclaves in the United States do you? Little Italy? Jewish neighborhoods in New York? Chinatown? Irish neighborhoods...etc. Their kids end up assimilating. It doesn't happen in a single generation. Immigrant enclaves have existed in this country since the very beginning, they all eventually just end up getting absorbed into the country as a whole and turned into semi tourist destinations as the offspring of the older generations move out and disperse and assimilate. Hell, it's happening right now in practically every Chinatown where the average resident's age is over 60. The concerns this guy had are very much contingent upon how quickly the Muslim populations in Europe secularize. With education and secularization almost always comes lower birthrates. Though you could segue this into a discussion on how quickly they are secularizing. Hopefully some of our European friends can enlighten us on this. Studies have shown that the younger muslim generations in both North Africa and Europe are more religious. I've no idea about whether or not they accept secularism but usually a stronger belief in religion indicate otherwise. But the saddest thing is that the ones not being too religious are the ones responsible of other half the crime, rapes, stealing, robbing, drug dealing (over 50% of our prisoners are muslims). In other words, they are assimilating terribly on all levels. Ofc this is a statistical approach, and some of them are individually morally superior to a lot of Europeans. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:07 Ksi wrote: You really have no idea about the history of ethnic enclaves in the United States do you? Little Italy? Jewish neighborhoods in New York? Chinatown? Irish neighborhoods...etc. Their kids end up assimilating. It doesn't happen in a single generation. I would say I have some authority to speak on the matter of judaism because I was a sincerely devout jew until about when I graduated high school. I can still recite more of the old testament (read: torah) than most christians. I believe I can talk about immigration in general because I worked for three years as a volunteer teaching ESL at a school for VERY poor immigrant children, as well as working with an outreach program to increase the amount of aid that Greensboro's immigrant population receives. I have worked in their actual neighborhoods to build playgrounds, fix plumbing, and fix most other household amenities that we take for granted. I have fought a much stronger man and won just to communicate to him that you can't beat your fucking kids till their bones are broken in America. Despite the way my original post sounds I am in no way saying that immigrants are bad people. In fact I would have to say that most of the immigrants (illegal or not) that I have met are better people overall than most of the americans I know. However, that does not detract from the fact that immigrant populations take much longer to assimilate when they arrive in large numbers and concentrate in certain areas. You mention chinatown, but not which city. The nice thing about chinatowns is that they are not rapidly expanding like muslim communities in europe or mexican communities in the south west U.S. . They have achieved a balance of immigration -> assimilation, and we should seek the same balance for all other immigrants. Edit: Sorry for the rambling post, started drinking about a half hour ago. Will end posting until tomorrow. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On July 25 2011 09:38 doodlz wrote: I don't think your post is exactly on the spot. As far as I can tell most of what you write can be somewhat referenced to things he said but the conclusions are misleading.Let me elaborate; Breivik targeted those youths because they are the next generation of politicians of the Norwegian Labour Party. It seems to me that this whole tragedy is a personal vendetta to cripple the Government (which has been moslty led by The Labour Party post-WWII to present) who, in Breviks eyes, has f***ed up our country. Thats why he also chose to bomb the Government district in Oslo to distract the police, he hit two birds with stone. In the manifesto it says that he resorted to violence as a last option because everything else he had tried, failed. Everything is his attempt to show us that our government has failed the nation and our national inheritance as norwegians, with a liberal immigration policy etc. Basically anyone from a third world country (Muslims as well as others) can move here and get free welfare, as long as they claim they are refugees. And above all, he proves that the justice system is flawed because he, who murdered over 90 poeple with cold blood, can only get a sentence of max. 21 years. And while he's in jail, he lives a hotel life and has access to free education and whatnot. This guy is not insane, but rather driven into madness by his beliefs. This is only what i've made out of watching the news non-stop the past two days and what i think is the reason behind what happened. And by the way, i'm not sympathizing with him, his actions were gruesome and disgusting. All i'm saying is that i somewhat agree with his beliefs.... screw being politically correct, LOL. When i woke up the day after it happened and discovered that the kill-count had raised from 10 to 90 throughout the night, i almost threw up. All i could do was wander around aimlessly, thinking about the victims and their families. I was lucky enough and didn't have any acquaintanses at Utøya. TL;DR Breivik tried to cripple the government because he STRONGLY disagrees with the way they reign, and unfortunatly he chose to use violence and kill people. What he claims to be fighting in Europe is what he calls multicultural Marxism. He argues that current societies falling apart are opportunities for new views to take over, IE hopefully the things he believes in. And so on. I don't understand the madness not insane part. He's not necessarily medically speaking insane, retarded or whatever but he's definitely not very bright either. Not sure if that was what you were trying to say. Edit I don't know how he ranks the kids he killed(they don't really seem to fit his A, B and C scale) but from what I read this far of his manifest they clearly were not "civilians". It says that C's shouldn't be punished by the death penalty but they can't possibly be B's either. So no obvious ranking on the kids from what I've read this far except that they weren't civilians either. | ||
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Undrass
Norway381 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:03 johanngrunt wrote: Man, this is just horrible beyond words. Is there a fund we can donate to or some concrete way to help the Norwegians affected? Like donating to a scholarship fund for the kids? Scholarship is free in Norway | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:25 TeWy wrote: Studies have shown that the younger muslim generations in both North Africa and Europe are more religious. I've no idea about whether or not they accept secularism but usually a stronger belief in religion indicate otherwise. This kinda of reminds me of a "concern" right-wingers tend to raise in germany, considering who actually immigrates to us. Basicly the statement here is that if it comes e.g. to turks or some years ago polish or italian people the ones that come to germany are the ones looking for actual working jobs. That statement includes that they're the uneducated and more prone to crime ones - not to mention the ones with the higher birthrates/more fundamentalist views, while the intellectuals stay in their home country and laugh their ass off how stupid we are taking them in. If someone can link/quote some studies concerning that thing and the post I quoted it would probably help fixing some misunderstandings. From my personal background I can say that I pretty much see two, in attitude pretty different, types of immigrants in my area: a) The ones that actually stirr trouble, hang around themselves and don't do what I'd call "integrate themselves". b) The ones that are way straighter than any german, do well in schools and speak the language better than some of the people born here. The only real difference in their background I witnessed personally is the education and the attitude of their parents. b) Tend to have highly educated parents with the "We came here so our kids have a better future"-ideal. a) Tend to have not-so educated parents with a "We came here so we get a better job for more money than at home"-ideal. When I think of the people I met around here there are quite some I'd put into b), but who do well in schools, get educated and at one point they broke with their parents and started living on their own. (The aboph paragraphs are purely based on my personal observation, please treat them as such.) "Interesting side fact": I know quite some clubs/bars in my area where guys (yes, guys only) with a turkish or arabian name aren't let in 'cause "I don't like your shoes". And yes, owners can get away with that np. <3 twisted values. PS: I'm really not sure if we shouldn't make a new thread for all the issues that come in the aftermath of this. Part of me says it's respectless to discuss it here, part of me knows this is the ideal place cause it goes to the root of things and trying to prevent further issues - which is the most respectfull thing you can give to people who died a needless death. PPS: For those wondering, this goes for northern bavarian area, basicly cities with 100k to 500k people. Nothing really huge. | ||
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sidesprang
Norway1033 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:03 johanngrunt wrote: Man, this is just horrible beyond words. Is there a fund we can donate to or some concrete way to help the Norwegians affected? Like donating to a scholarship fund for the kids? I've not seen anything about that. If there exsist/will be made one I can link it if/when I see it  | ||
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kaisen
United States601 Posts
And then we have the relationship between conservative Muslims and so-called "moderate Muslims". There is moderate Nazis, too, that does not support fumigation of rooms and Jews. But they're still Nazis and will only sit and watch as the conservatives Nazis strike (if it ever happens). If we accept the moderate Nazis as long as they distance themselves from the fumigation of rooms and Jews? Now it unfortunately already cut himself with Marxists who have already infiltrated-culture, media and educational organizations. These individuals will be tolerated and will even work asprofessors and lecturers at colleges / universities and are thus able to spread their propaganda. For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ. They are all supporters of hate-ideologies...(page 2-3) What is globalization and modernity to do with mass Muslim immigration? And you may not have heard and Japan and South Korea? These are successful and modern regimes even if they rejected multiculturalism in the 70's. Are Japanese and South Koreans goblins? Can you name ONE country where multiculturalism is successful where Islam is involved? The only historical example is the society without a welfare state with only non-Muslim minorities (U.S.)...(page 7) We have selected the Vienna School of Thought as the ideological basis. This implies opposition to multiculturalism and Islamization (on cultural grounds). All ideological arguments based on anti-racism. This has proven to be very successful which explains why the modern cultural conservative movement / parties that use the Vienna School of Thought is so successful: the Progress Party,Geert Wilders, document and many others...(page 13) I consider the future consolidation of the cultural conservative forces on all seven fronts as the most important in Norway and in all Western European countries. It is essential that we work to ensure that all these 7 fronts using the Vienna school of thought, or at least parts of the grunlag for 20-70 year-struggle that lies in front of us. I do agree with some of his points, though... | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On July 25 2011 08:14 Gnax wrote: Are you listening to yourself? I'd say 50% of his motivation was about religion and 50% political. from reading some of the stuff he's written, he doesn't come off as religiously christian, but rather culturally christian. He wanted to defend the christian cultural heritage of europe, but he doesn't seem to be fundementally christian in any significant way. On July 25 2011 08:48 BasedSwag wrote: Your line of thinking is what is partially responsible for the attack in Norway. he has a right to express his opinions regardless of sharing some of them with a homicidal madman. And just because a madman had some of these ideas does not invalidate ALL of them. I am going to continue to be as intolerant of political islam as I was before these atrocities, just like I will continue to be intolerant of all religious movements with political aspirations. Free speech-wise, the most damaging outcome of this situation is if people become scared to voice their concerns regarding the interactions between european values and muslim values, out of fear of being met with the same hatred as Breivik or be branded a right-wing nut. + Show Spoiler + (I am certainly enough of a "cultural marxist" and a class-whatever traitor that Breivik would undoubtedly have no qualms about executing me, just like he did all those people Utøya. I've voted Arbeiderpartiet for about 12 years now. In that sense, his attacks on AUF/the goverment is also an attack on me and my values. That does not mean that I now - as a consequence of these attacks - find political islam tolerable. Although from now on I will be qualifying my statements about islam with the prefix "political," just to be more precise. Whatever religion people practice in the private sphere is their own business.) | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:46 sekritzzz wrote: Media and political correctness. As far as I know Islamic extremists are responsible for the least(4 or 10% if I recall) of what we rank as terrorist acts in Europe of the common groupings(with separatists taking the top slot I believe). Not that so called terrorist acts are that common though.I kind of find it very amusing how when any bomb goes off including this one, everyone immediately calls it "Islamic extremism". However with this guy, who is a zealot Christian extremist, even referring himself to a "knights Templar" in reference to the crusades, pulling off one of the most intelligently engineered terrorist attack perfectly with great precision and people suddenly refer to him as a madman/insane. I don't get it. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:59 Akta wrote: Media and political correctness. As far as I know Islamic extremists are responsible for the least(4 or 10% if I recall) of what we rank as terrorist acts in Europe of the common groupings(with separatists taking the top slot I believe). Not that so called terrorist acts are that common though. You should rather compare the casualties rather than the number. | ||
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weeA
India442 Posts
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:07 Ksi wrote: You really have no idea about the history of ethnic enclaves in the United States do you? Little Italy? Jewish neighborhoods in New York? Chinatown? Irish neighborhoods...etc. Their kids end up assimilating. It doesn't happen in a single generation. Immigrant enclaves have existed in this country since the very beginning, they all eventually just end up getting absorbed into the country as a whole and turned into semi tourist destinations as the offspring of the older generations move out and disperse and assimilate. Hell, it's happening right now in practically every Chinatown where the average resident's age is over 60. The concerns this guy had are very much contingent upon how quickly the Muslim populations in Europe secularize. With education and secularization almost always comes lower birthrates. Though you could segue this into a discussion on how quickly they are secularizing. Hopefully some of our European friends can enlighten us on this. Have you ever seen demographic maps of US cities? Pretty much puts a fork in the idea people don't voluntarily segregate themselves. | ||
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
Some how a blog post about the event occurred two days prior on July 20th. To verify it search the link in google. It says the page was created 4 days ago. Also the blog index lists the page as being created on July 20th. Weird. Explanations are welcome. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On July 25 2011 12:40 HowitZer wrote: Check this out guys http://www.bhrnm.org/business-news/bomb-rips-through-norways-capital Some how a blog post about the event occurred two days prior on July 20th. To verify it search the link in google. It says the page was created 4 days ago. Also the blog index lists the page as being created on July 20th. Weird. Explanations are welcome. What the fuck. This needs more attention. :X | ||
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BasedSwag
Algeria418 Posts
... Google most likely uses the date in the blog index/the page itself (which can obviously be modified easily). If you check the cache, ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p1v7qnudxzkJ:www.bhrnm.org/business-news/bomb-rips-through-norways-capital http://www.bhrnm.org/business-news/bomb-rips-through-norways-capital&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk ) it was first cached on July 23rd, if it was created 3 days earlier then it would have been cached earlier. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On July 25 2011 12:57 BasedSwag wrote: ... Google most likely uses the date in the blog index/the page itself (which can obviously be modified easily). If you check the cache, ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p1v7qnudxzkJ:www.bhrnm.org/business-news/bomb-rips-through-norways-capital http://www.bhrnm.org/business-news/bomb-rips-through-norways-capital&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk ) it was first cached on July 23rd, if it was created 3 days earlier then it would have been cached earlier. k, then it was just me being retarded. /conspiracy mode off. | ||
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