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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 25 2011 07:41 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:35 Pasado wrote:On July 25 2011 07:24 Andymoo wrote:
...However, one of my coworkers did point out that he's most likely smart enough to know how that works and may be able to prove himself as changed when that time comes, granted I hope they just automatically add on 5years every time. This, I also feel he is smart enough to act rehabilitated and get released. He will be confirmed to be a psychopath, there is no way to treat this and everything he says about changed views will be ignored because psychopaths are extremely good att lying. He will never get out.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's kept in jail for his own safty as much as that of the public.
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On July 25 2011 07:55 Shiragaku wrote:
What makes me curious is how he was able to get a gun in a nation with insane gun conrol laws.
He actually used legal weapons after giving up on acquiring illegal arms. He spent a lot of time in gun clubs (a year or so) to be able to buy the pistol. If I remember correct, the rifle was ordering for hunting, then modified by himself.
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On July 25 2011 07:55 Shiragaku wrote:
What makes me curious is how he was able to get a gun in a nation with insane gun conrol laws.
He was a member of a hunting club, and he joined a pistol shooting club years in advance of this shooting purposely so he would have a legitimate reason/background for owning a pistol in the event that he needed one during his massacre.
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On July 25 2011 07:55 Shiragaku wrote:
What makes me curious is how he was able to get a gun in a nation with insane gun conrol laws.
Hunting is pretty popular in Norway according to Wikipedia, so civilians are allowed to have semi-atuomatic rifles for that, full-automatic ones are forbidden tho.
So probably not THAT hard to get hold of that rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway
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They say that the motor on the policeboat stopped when they were heading towards the island and that delayed the arrival with about 10 minutes  A surgery also say that the man used bullets that explode on impact that cause a lot more damage. These bullets are illegal in warfare but leagal for hunting.
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On July 25 2011 07:49 BasedSwag wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:45 ThePhan2m wrote:I want to share some thoughts a friend of mine shared in his blog about Anders Behring Breivik being a fundamental Christian. Especially to the Americans, where the media seem to misunderstand this. + Show Spoiler +Anders Behring Breivik - Fundamentalist Christian?
In the wake of the bomb in Oslo, and following massacre at the Labour Party youth camp at Utøya, I've noticed a very peculiar thing about the coverage of the event in American media. Many of them seem to be perpetuating the idea that the terrorist, Anders Behring Breivik is a fundamentalist Christian.
While I suspect that this misinformation is being perpetuated on purpose by a small group of secularist journalists who intend to exploit this tragedy to spread their agenda of hatred against Christians, I still feel obliged to make one clarification to my American friends, and help them see this through Norwegian eyes.
Breivik has authored (largely by copying and pasting) a 1500 page manifesto, where he uses some rhetoric around preserving our christian culture and heritage. European journalists, even the most left-leaning of them, understand what this means. We are immersed in the ideas that our nations are "Christian nations", because we have a state church. They understand that the Christianity he talks about is the same Christianity they practice themselves when they take their children before the priest to get sprinkled, and when the go to Church on Christmas eve to get into the proper Christmas mood. It's what Norwegians do. They don't mean anything about it, and the moment they are out of those church doors they proceed to go about their secular lives as usual. This Christianity does not spring from a sincerely held faith in Christ. It's just a wholesome tradition, that is closely tied to our national identity. And who knows, maybe there even is a God out there who will look on us favorably for jumping through these hoops, right?
This type of nationalistic Christianity lends itself perfectly to this type of abuse. Increasing numbers of Arab immigrants are spreading Islamic culture, so what is the remedy? We need to fight for our Christian cultural heritage!
And so it was that the name of Christ was dragged into this atrocity. Breivik may see himself as a Christian. It's a delusion he has in common with most of the Norwegian population. It seems he might even at occasions have prayed. Most people seem to do that whenever they're in a pinch, even if they don't really believe anyone is listening.
But I can say one thing for certain. Breivik does not have anything in common with the people who are generally labeled fundamentalist Christians. These are people who let the teachings of Christ have genuine influence in their lives. They love their enemies, bless those who persecute them, and the sword with witch they spread their message is the Word of God. And they all share my disbelief and disgust with the atrocities that have been committed.
Please feel free to spread this around as a counterweight to the false information that is being spread.
That's really dumb and hypocritical. Do you think that they consider the 9/11 bombings to not be "Islamic fundamentalists" because they weren't truly following the teachings of the Quran? It goes both ways.
In my opinion, you cannot compare these two religions. Fully devout Muslims & fully devout Christians are very different. Christ does not encourage killing people at all, while the Quran does.
But this is not the thread to discuss this. I simply posted that to clarify the difference of cultural aspect of Christianity, in America and in Europe.
User was warned for this post
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On July 25 2011 07:55 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:41 Nausea wrote:On July 25 2011 07:35 Pasado wrote:On July 25 2011 07:24 Andymoo wrote:
...However, one of my coworkers did point out that he's most likely smart enough to know how that works and may be able to prove himself as changed when that time comes, granted I hope they just automatically add on 5years every time. This, I also feel he is smart enough to act rehabilitated and get released. He will be confirmed to be a psychopath, there is no way to treat this and everything he says about changed views will be ignored because psychopaths are extremely good att lying. He will never get out. I wouldn't be surprised if he's kept in jail for his own safty as much as that of the public.
Pretty much this, even if they did let him out in like 26years or something, there'd be enough people waiting outside to "greet" him... :|
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On July 25 2011 07:55 shabby wrote:
I don't think you understand, read it again. He does not believe in God or Jesus, this should make him a non-christian. In norway as it said, we look at christianity as tradition because we haven't split the church and state yet. Most are athiests, agnostic or into human ethics or whatnot afaik. Christians in Norway aren't trying to "save face" by discrediting his faith, he has none.
He has no faith? This is a direct quote from his diary:
"I prayed for the first time in a very long time today. I explained to God that unless he wanted the Marxist-Islamic alliance and the certain Islamic takeover of Europe to completely annihilate European Christendom within the next hundred years he must ensure that the warriors fighting for the preservation of European Christendom prevail. He must ensure that I succeed with my mission and as such; contribute to inspire thousands of other revolutionary conservatives/nationalists; anti-Communists and anti-Islamists throughout the European world."
Perhaps he was not fully committed to God but he still believed in him.
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On July 25 2011 07:55 shabby wrote:
I don't think you understand, read it again. He does not believe in God or Jesus, this should make him a non-christian. In norway as it said, we look at christianity as tradition because we haven't split the church and state yet. Most are athiests, agnostic or into human ethics or whatnot afaik. Christians in Norway aren't trying to "save face" by discrediting his faith, he has none.
This is also from his manifesto:
Religion: Christian, Protestant but I support a reformation of Protestantism leading to it being absorbed by Catholisism. The typical “Protestant Labour Church” has to be deconstructed as its creation was an attempt to abolish the Church
Religious: I went from moderately to agnostic to moderately religious
+ Show Spoiler +Q: Some will claim that you are Christian fanatics, just as hateful and intolerant as Al Qaeda. How would you react to accusations like that?
A: The PCCTS, Knights Templar is a European indigenous rights movement and a Crusader movement (anti-Jihad movement), a part of the pan-European and national resistance movement. In a way it is a conservative revolutionary movement.
By propagating and defending Christendom we simply mean that we want to halt the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist attacks and systematic deconstruction on our Christian cultures and the Church itself and to reverse the de-Christianisation of Europe. The biggest threat to Europe is the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist political doctrine of ”extreme egalitarian emotionalism”. This type of political stance involves destroying Christendom, the Church, our European cultures and identities and opening up our borders to Islamic colonisation. The Islamisation of Europe is merely a ”secondary infection”. Western Europe has grown weak and decadent and will be completely annihilated culturally unless we succeed to implement a second European renaissance and reverse the damage done.
History has shown again and again that you cannot co-exist peacefully with Islam. The only thing you can do is to isolate it as our forefathers have done for the last 1400 years.
Jihadi Islamists are imperialistic aggressors who believe in armed global Jihad with the purpose of aggressively (or through Dawah) conquer the world and will not give up until all individuals have embraced Islam. We share none of these goals.
We on the other hand are a defensive military organisation who only seek to protect the peoples of Europe and our cultures from genocide. In order for us to effectively protect ourselves from Islam and Islamisation we must first defeat the Western European multiculturalist regimes who are facilitating the ongoing colonisation.
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On July 25 2011 08:01 ThePhan2m wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:49 BasedSwag wrote:On July 25 2011 07:45 ThePhan2m wrote:I want to share some thoughts a friend of mine shared in his blog about Anders Behring Breivik being a fundamental Christian. Especially to the Americans, where the media seem to misunderstand this. + Show Spoiler +Anders Behring Breivik - Fundamentalist Christian?
In the wake of the bomb in Oslo, and following massacre at the Labour Party youth camp at Utøya, I've noticed a very peculiar thing about the coverage of the event in American media. Many of them seem to be perpetuating the idea that the terrorist, Anders Behring Breivik is a fundamentalist Christian.
While I suspect that this misinformation is being perpetuated on purpose by a small group of secularist journalists who intend to exploit this tragedy to spread their agenda of hatred against Christians, I still feel obliged to make one clarification to my American friends, and help them see this through Norwegian eyes.
Breivik has authored (largely by copying and pasting) a 1500 page manifesto, where he uses some rhetoric around preserving our christian culture and heritage. European journalists, even the most left-leaning of them, understand what this means. We are immersed in the ideas that our nations are "Christian nations", because we have a state church. They understand that the Christianity he talks about is the same Christianity they practice themselves when they take their children before the priest to get sprinkled, and when the go to Church on Christmas eve to get into the proper Christmas mood. It's what Norwegians do. They don't mean anything about it, and the moment they are out of those church doors they proceed to go about their secular lives as usual. This Christianity does not spring from a sincerely held faith in Christ. It's just a wholesome tradition, that is closely tied to our national identity. And who knows, maybe there even is a God out there who will look on us favorably for jumping through these hoops, right?
This type of nationalistic Christianity lends itself perfectly to this type of abuse. Increasing numbers of Arab immigrants are spreading Islamic culture, so what is the remedy? We need to fight for our Christian cultural heritage!
And so it was that the name of Christ was dragged into this atrocity. Breivik may see himself as a Christian. It's a delusion he has in common with most of the Norwegian population. It seems he might even at occasions have prayed. Most people seem to do that whenever they're in a pinch, even if they don't really believe anyone is listening.
But I can say one thing for certain. Breivik does not have anything in common with the people who are generally labeled fundamentalist Christians. These are people who let the teachings of Christ have genuine influence in their lives. They love their enemies, bless those who persecute them, and the sword with witch they spread their message is the Word of God. And they all share my disbelief and disgust with the atrocities that have been committed.
Please feel free to spread this around as a counterweight to the false information that is being spread.
That's really dumb and hypocritical. Do you think that they consider the 9/11 bombings to not be "Islamic fundamentalists" because they weren't truly following the teachings of the Quran? It goes both ways. In my opinion, you cannot compare these two religions. Fully devout Muslims & fully devout Christians are very different. Christ does not encourage killing people at all, while the Quran does. But this is not the thread to discuss this. I simply posted that to clarify the difference of cultural aspect of Christianity, in America and in Europe.
This is false, there are several passages in the Bible where Jesus himself directly sanctions killing.
Here's an example:
Matthew 15:4 (Jesus reaffirms Moses, who spoke for God)
"For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"
This is not even to mention the fact that the Old Testament has many many passages which even the most extreme Christians choose to ignore because they don't fit with modern ideas of morality/ethics. Why is it that Christians are allowed to pick & choose which parts of the Bible they adhere to but it is assumed that no Muslims do?
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I think it's truly saddening that he targeted basically innocents. I don't see the relation between youth activists and Islam. I send my condolences to the victims.
His manifesto talks little about Christianity, or the Bible, or even about the Knights Templar. I think someone should summarize the manifesto in a separate wiki, so that people can be spared reading his broken diary.
Had he killed 90 Taliban Muslim soldiers, I would agree he's an extremist. But this seems like a Timothy McVeigh copycat. For the victims sake, Anders Behring Breivik needs to be sent to the US and receive a death penalty. Were there any Americans he killed?
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I think we can all agree that religion was not his main motivation. Hearing his views, it sounds like he is more concerned with the Muslims and Communists rather than martyring himself for God.
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On July 25 2011 07:45 ThePhan2m wrote:
I want to share some thoughts a friend of mine shared in his blog about Anders Behring Breivik being a fundamental Christian. Especially to the Americans, where the media seem to misunderstand this.
THIS HAS BEEN EDITED TO MAKE A POINT
And so it was that the name of Mohamed was dragged into this atrocity. Suicide Bomber X may see himself as a Muslim. It's a delusion he has in common with most of the Nation X population. It seems he might even at occasions have prayed. Most people seem to do that whenever they're in a pinch, even if they don't really believe anyone is listening.
But I can say one thing for certain. Suicide Bomber X does not have anything in common with the people who are generally labeled Muslims. These are people who let the teachings of Mohamed have genuine influence in their lives. They love their enemies, bless those who persecute them, and the sword with witch they spread their message is the Word of God. And they all share my disbelief and disgust with the atrocities that have been committed.
Please feel free to spread this around as a counterweight to the false information that is being spread.
The problem with a national religious identity (which I honestly believe isn't as prevalent in Norway as in the US) is that it allows people to create the "them or us" mentality. Again, my argument is not that this man was a devout christian. It is that this man should be called a christian terrorist if we are to follow the same exact logic that leads us to call suicide bombers Islamic terrorists. The thing that I want people to think about the most out of this discussion is how narrow minded cultural/political/religious views only create the "them or us" attitude because we let them polarize our opinions.
My point is that when you see yourself as a christian
or
You see yourself as a Muslim
or
You see yourself as a Socialist
or
You see yourself as a Tea Party Conservative
You would be better seeing yourself and others as human beings, and then picking apart how each of these people came to be the way they are.
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On July 25 2011 08:06 Shiragaku wrote:
I think we can all agree that religion was not his main motivation. Hearing his views, it sounds like he is more concerned with the Muslims and Communists rather than martyring himself for God.
Are you listening to yourself? I'd say 50% of his motivation was about religion and 50% political.
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On July 25 2011 08:02 BasedSwag wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:55 shabby wrote:
I don't think you understand, read it again. He does not believe in God or Jesus, this should make him a non-christian. In norway as it said, we look at christianity as tradition because we haven't split the church and state yet. Most are athiests, agnostic or into human ethics or whatnot afaik. Christians in Norway aren't trying to "save face" by discrediting his faith, he has none. He has no faith? This is a direct quote from his diary: "I prayed for the first time in a very long time today. I explained to God that unless he wanted the Marxist-Islamic alliance and the certain Islamic takeover of Europe to completely annihilate European Christendom within the next hundred years he must ensure that the warriors fighting for the preservation of European Christendom prevail. He must ensure that I succeed with my mission and as such; contribute to inspire thousands of other revolutionary conservatives/nationalists; anti-Communists and anti-Islamists throughout the European world." Perhaps he was not fully committed to God but he still believed in him.
Also from the manifest:
+ Show Spoiler +"As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings. Europe has always been the cradle of science and it must always continue to be that way.
Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe."
I believe he views himself as a christian because of it's values, and that it is the "true european heritage" (since the crusades, anyway...). The point is that he should not be viewed as a christian fundamentalist, but more as a conservative rightwing-extremist/nationalist or whatever terms he used.
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On July 25 2011 08:01 ThePhan2m wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 07:49 BasedSwag wrote:On July 25 2011 07:45 ThePhan2m wrote:I want to share some thoughts a friend of mine shared in his blog about Anders Behring Breivik being a fundamental Christian. Especially to the Americans, where the media seem to misunderstand this. + Show Spoiler +Anders Behring Breivik - Fundamentalist Christian?
In the wake of the bomb in Oslo, and following massacre at the Labour Party youth camp at Utøya, I've noticed a very peculiar thing about the coverage of the event in American media. Many of them seem to be perpetuating the idea that the terrorist, Anders Behring Breivik is a fundamentalist Christian.
While I suspect that this misinformation is being perpetuated on purpose by a small group of secularist journalists who intend to exploit this tragedy to spread their agenda of hatred against Christians, I still feel obliged to make one clarification to my American friends, and help them see this through Norwegian eyes.
Breivik has authored (largely by copying and pasting) a 1500 page manifesto, where he uses some rhetoric around preserving our christian culture and heritage. European journalists, even the most left-leaning of them, understand what this means. We are immersed in the ideas that our nations are "Christian nations", because we have a state church. They understand that the Christianity he talks about is the same Christianity they practice themselves when they take their children before the priest to get sprinkled, and when the go to Church on Christmas eve to get into the proper Christmas mood. It's what Norwegians do. They don't mean anything about it, and the moment they are out of those church doors they proceed to go about their secular lives as usual. This Christianity does not spring from a sincerely held faith in Christ. It's just a wholesome tradition, that is closely tied to our national identity. And who knows, maybe there even is a God out there who will look on us favorably for jumping through these hoops, right?
This type of nationalistic Christianity lends itself perfectly to this type of abuse. Increasing numbers of Arab immigrants are spreading Islamic culture, so what is the remedy? We need to fight for our Christian cultural heritage!
And so it was that the name of Christ was dragged into this atrocity. Breivik may see himself as a Christian. It's a delusion he has in common with most of the Norwegian population. It seems he might even at occasions have prayed. Most people seem to do that whenever they're in a pinch, even if they don't really believe anyone is listening.
But I can say one thing for certain. Breivik does not have anything in common with the people who are generally labeled fundamentalist Christians. These are people who let the teachings of Christ have genuine influence in their lives. They love their enemies, bless those who persecute them, and the sword with witch they spread their message is the Word of God. And they all share my disbelief and disgust with the atrocities that have been committed.
Please feel free to spread this around as a counterweight to the false information that is being spread.
That's really dumb and hypocritical. Do you think that they consider the 9/11 bombings to not be "Islamic fundamentalists" because they weren't truly following the teachings of the Quran? It goes both ways. In my opinion, you cannot compare these two religions. Fully devout Muslims & fully devout Christians are very different. Christ does not encourage killing people at all, while the Quran does. But this is not the thread to discuss this. I simply posted that to clarify the difference of cultural aspect of Christianity, in America and in Europe.
Oh come on. If there's anything to learn from all this it's that any ideology can be perverted into a justification for killing innocents. Christianity, islam, liberalism, socialism, animal rights, even pacifism, you name it and people have killed for it.
Devout muslims aren't any more or any less violent then devout christians, or whatever other ideological group you want to name. They all have their demons.
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He is a christian terrorist as much as the suicide bombers are muslim terrorists.
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On July 25 2011 08:19 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 08:01 ThePhan2m wrote:On July 25 2011 07:49 BasedSwag wrote:On July 25 2011 07:45 ThePhan2m wrote:I want to share some thoughts a friend of mine shared in his blog about Anders Behring Breivik being a fundamental Christian. Especially to the Americans, where the media seem to misunderstand this. + Show Spoiler +Anders Behring Breivik - Fundamentalist Christian?
In the wake of the bomb in Oslo, and following massacre at the Labour Party youth camp at Utøya, I've noticed a very peculiar thing about the coverage of the event in American media. Many of them seem to be perpetuating the idea that the terrorist, Anders Behring Breivik is a fundamentalist Christian.
While I suspect that this misinformation is being perpetuated on purpose by a small group of secularist journalists who intend to exploit this tragedy to spread their agenda of hatred against Christians, I still feel obliged to make one clarification to my American friends, and help them see this through Norwegian eyes.
Breivik has authored (largely by copying and pasting) a 1500 page manifesto, where he uses some rhetoric around preserving our christian culture and heritage. European journalists, even the most left-leaning of them, understand what this means. We are immersed in the ideas that our nations are "Christian nations", because we have a state church. They understand that the Christianity he talks about is the same Christianity they practice themselves when they take their children before the priest to get sprinkled, and when the go to Church on Christmas eve to get into the proper Christmas mood. It's what Norwegians do. They don't mean anything about it, and the moment they are out of those church doors they proceed to go about their secular lives as usual. This Christianity does not spring from a sincerely held faith in Christ. It's just a wholesome tradition, that is closely tied to our national identity. And who knows, maybe there even is a God out there who will look on us favorably for jumping through these hoops, right?
This type of nationalistic Christianity lends itself perfectly to this type of abuse. Increasing numbers of Arab immigrants are spreading Islamic culture, so what is the remedy? We need to fight for our Christian cultural heritage!
And so it was that the name of Christ was dragged into this atrocity. Breivik may see himself as a Christian. It's a delusion he has in common with most of the Norwegian population. It seems he might even at occasions have prayed. Most people seem to do that whenever they're in a pinch, even if they don't really believe anyone is listening.
But I can say one thing for certain. Breivik does not have anything in common with the people who are generally labeled fundamentalist Christians. These are people who let the teachings of Christ have genuine influence in their lives. They love their enemies, bless those who persecute them, and the sword with witch they spread their message is the Word of God. And they all share my disbelief and disgust with the atrocities that have been committed.
Please feel free to spread this around as a counterweight to the false information that is being spread.
That's really dumb and hypocritical. Do you think that they consider the 9/11 bombings to not be "Islamic fundamentalists" because they weren't truly following the teachings of the Quran? It goes both ways. In my opinion, you cannot compare these two religions. Fully devout Muslims & fully devout Christians are very different. Christ does not encourage killing people at all, while the Quran does. But this is not the thread to discuss this. I simply posted that to clarify the difference of cultural aspect of Christianity, in America and in Europe. Oh come on. If there's anything to learn from all this it's that any ideology can be perverted into a justification for killing innocents. Christianity, islam, liberalism, socialism, animal rights, even pacifism, you name it and people have killed for it. Devout muslims aren't any more or any less violent then devout christians, or whatever other ideological group you want to name. They all have their demons.
^QFT.
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I wonder what Anders Breivik's belifes would be if he was borned in a muslim country.
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Most terrorism is probably 75% political/secular motivations and 25% religious when it comes down to it. Tensions due to differences in religious beliefs is a symptom of the overall cultural/political divide that leads to terrorism, not the root cause. The religious aspect though does go a long way in motivating the individual into thinking he is right and/or doing something holy and divine. Their motivations are ones I would primarily ascribe to the individual. The religion just gives them something to project their twisted views upon and justify their actions. Not that I'm trying to defend religion here, I think it's horribly intellectually lazy.
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EPT
