EPTAsk and answer stupid questions here! - Page 147
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On September 23 2014 13:06 Yoav wrote: I get that the correlation/causation thing is overdone in internet discussion, often applied incorrectly. See also, the misuse of "red herring," "Occam's razor" or even generally "logical fallacy." But the punching thing is not the issue. The issue is cases like how violent crime is related to ice cream sales. Even if the relation were very strong, it would not be because ice cream causes crime, or visa versa. Both are related to heat, which is an independent factor that happens to cause both of the above. There is no causal relationship between the effects, and to say there is a causation is incorrect. For a popular real example of this, look at pretty much any study reported by a media outlet on things that "cause" IQ increases, better job performance, etc. Of course there are causes to these things. But saying that eating fast food makes you dumber is simply failing to control for the variables of wealth/class/region. I know I'm digging this up a week late but this is probably the best demonstration of what you're saying I've ever seen. This is a joke chart created to demonstrate the silliness of the "Vaccines cause autism" claim: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--d3oXRroB--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/19bm94ui3v59fpng.jpg) | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
I have seem a couple at my university in the past week, and it seems borderline illegal, as it becomes discriminatory, as only select people are able to read the information, and for all I know they could be saying offensive remarks to the rest of the population. Anyway, I don't think Arabic abjad notices should be given out by small private companies, as business should in theory be always expressed in an official language(s) of the country, in order for it to be effectively reviewed by the government and other entities when necessary. From my limited understanding of law, and law theory, it doesn't feel abnormal to think this might be illegal. I'm having trouble finding information on this on the Canada website however, and I'd like to know its legality before I file a complaint to the University, and a request to removal/ban of all foreign language notices (that aren't also translated in English) at the University. Thank you. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 02 2014 08:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: In Canada, are you legally allowed to put up advertisements (such as posters/flyers on bulletin boards) in foreign languages (with no English/French translation?). I have seem a couple at my university in the past week, and it seems borderline illegal, as it becomes discriminatory, as only select people are able to read the information, and for all I know they could be saying offensive remarks to the rest of the population. Anyway, I don't think Arabic abjad notices should be given out by small private companies, as business should in theory be always expressed in an official language(s) of the country, in order for it to be effectively reviewed by the government and other entities when necessary. From my limited understanding of law, and law theory, it doesn't feel abnormal to think this might be illegal. I'm having trouble finding information on this on the Canada website however, and I'd like to know its legality before I file a complaint to the University, and a request to removal/ban of all foreign language notices (that aren't also translated in English) at the University. Thank you. Sounds highly discriminatory to take legal action against a people who speaks differently than you. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
"Houses of deceased individuals from lung cancer are inspected. It is found that 90% of houses of deceased individuals had a lighter in them. Meanwhile, when doing a sample of houses of all deceased people, only 20% of houses had a lighter in them." We can therefore see that there is a positive relationship between the probability of a lighter being in the house, an dying of lung cancer. This does NOT mean that owning a lighter is what caused people to die, the lighter is not the causation. It is simply correlated to chances of dying. However there is a very large correlation between the chance of finding a lighter in the house, and the chance of finding a smoker in that house. And because the values of smoking, and owning a lighter are so similar, you can use the chance of finding a lighter to lung cancer, to correlate the smoking vs lung cancer. Hope that makes sense! | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 08:22 Thieving Magpie wrote: Sounds highly discriminatory to take legal action against a people who speaks differently than you. Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing. I'd appreciate if you wouldn't reply to my posts anymore, not personally, just objectively. I looked through your last 200~ posts, which 80% of were one liners, and most of which simply nitpicked statements or questions someone asked. Not really looking for that kind of help. Say we live in old America and White people and Black people speak a different languages. Would it not be discriminatory to have all the signs only in the language of white people, so the black people are not eligible for any services? In essence this becomes the same as not letting someone into your store because they are black. As far as I can tell, you are not allowed to deny service to any individuals based on race, religion, age, sexual orientation, etc. The only exceptions that apply are ones like a Muslim person will not be able to become a leader of a Catholic church, or some other in place exceptions written in the law where the race/religion/age/sexual orientation/previous medical record is of legitimate importance to performing the job. To me, this appears like denial of service... To a more minor extent, but nonetheless, denial of service based on criteria that judge something legally not allowed,. This law is in place to promotes a healthier multicultural society according to our theories. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18002 Posts
If they expect their target audience to speak whatever language they advertise in, then they should be allowed to express it that way. Whether that is English, Arabic, Esperanto or Yiddish. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
For example, here in germany a lot of advertisements are at least partially in english, because english has this "cool" feeling to it due to a lot of culture being imported from the US. Do you think companies should be forced to advertise only in german? I think that sounds exceedingly silly. Furthermore, you would get silly amounts of regulation detailing exactly how much of the text needs to be in german, size of the german text, etc... All of it entirely pointless and serving no purpose whatsoever. And if you allow them to advertise in english, i don't see any reasonable argument to disallow them to advertise in whatever language they want to. The main reason they don't do that is that the point of advertisements is to reach a lot of people, and if most people who see a sign don't understand what it says then that defeats the purpose of the whole thing. Unless you assume that the only people who would want your stuff all also speak french. Maybe if you sell croissants and wine that might make sense? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 09:12 Simberto wrote: If it is something the government does, then it should not be only in some language few people understand. If it is something a private company does, then i don't really see the point. They should be able to advertise in whatever way they want to. For example, here in germany a lot of advertisements are at least partially in english, because english has this "cool" feeling to it due to a lot of culture being imported from the US. Do you think companies should be forced to advertise only in german? I think that sounds exceedingly silly. Furthermore, you would get silly amounts of regulation detailing exactly how much of the text needs to be in german, size of the german text, etc... All of it entirely pointless and serving no purpose whatsoever. And if you allow them to advertise in english, i don't see any reasonable argument to disallow them to advertise in whatever language they want to. The main reason they don't do that is that the point of advertisements is to reach a lot of people, and if most people who see a sign don't understand what it says then that defeats the purpose of the whole thing. Unless you assume that the only people who would want your stuff all also speak french. Maybe if you sell croissants and wine that might make sense? I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that anything in a foreign language should be required to be also translated to English as well. Just like how all of our food packing has to be in English AND French, even though 99% here don't have french is their mother tongue. It's because they are the official languages. You are free to have it in additional languages, but those 2 are required. Every restaurant here MUST have their menu in English, as well as whatever other languages they choose. There is already a lot of regulation when it comes to that, which might differ from some other countries. Again, their target audience would understand, because it's in the same language, it's just I believe all the residents of that country have the right to know what is being said by companies on advertisements, etc. I would not like if advertisements for example said: "Death the the white man" or something, spreading hate or other information, especially if I was unaware of it, that the normal person being exposed to them could not extract. So I think there's an unfairness there, and when it comes to business or registered club, it should be required that all their media is expressed in at least one official language, on top of whatever languages they wish to write it in. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 09:19 Nyxisto wrote: I guess a practical reason could be that you can't actually control if something on a poster or advertisement contains some illegal content. It could be stolen intellectual property or hate speech or whatever, and if it's written in a language that only a few people speak it may be difficult to identify that. Exactly, there are definitely practical applications for why government would want to do this, and it is completely within the constitution, that's why I'm trying to figure out if it's a law, because it's very plausible. I am aware it would come at an extra cost to the country, and it's hard to say just how hard the regulation would be to manage. This is a minor "problem", with only a some isolated cases here and there. Generally speaking, the benefit of not adding writing in English is less than if you just wrote it in English, and if it's a normal legitimate business that works within the law, I don't think that having advertisements in both languages would be that costly. Meanwhile, writing ingredients for food in both languages is significantly more costly, as you have little real estate to work with for small items, and then don't have any space for your logo and brand recognition. Well, Canada has a body called the CRTC, and it regulates television content, and for example, there is an extremely long and sensitive process that any non-Canadian broadcaster, or non English/French language broadcaster has to go to, in order to get their TV channel on cable. Just like how foreign language content is heavily monitored on TV, a parallel can be easily drawn, and it can be asked why isn't this the case for other foreign language media material. On October 02 2014 09:04 Acrofales wrote: Except that nothing is stopping you from learning the language. If they expect their target audience to speak whatever language they advertise in, then they should be allowed to express it that way. Whether that is English, Arabic, Esperanto or Yiddish. I dunno, I don't really like that argument. There aren't very many if any government services to learn Arabic/Slovak/Croatian/etc... I simply feel like some homogeneity is required when you immigrate from another country, to simply make society run smoother. I moved to Canada from Slovakia, and some traditions you can't keep here, than you can keep in other places. Just because you can perform genital mutilation in other countries, and it's your tradition, doesn't mean we will let you do it. There needs to be that level of assimilation you're prepared to undergo to bring everyone together. One of those things, in my opinion, is/should be using the official languages in business. | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On October 02 2014 10:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that anything in a foreign language should be required to be also translated to English as well. Just like how all of our food packing has to be in English AND French, even though 99% here don't have french is their mother tongue. It's because they are the official languages. You are free to have it in additional languages, but those 2 are required. Every restaurant here MUST have their menu in English, as well as whatever other languages they choose. There is already a lot of regulation when it comes to that, which might differ from some other countries. Again, their target audience would understand, because it's in the same language, it's just I believe all the residents of that country have the right to know what is being said by companies on advertisements, etc. I would not like if advertisements for example said: "Death the the white man" or something, spreading hate or other information, especially if I was unaware of it, that the normal person being exposed to them could not extract. So I think there's an unfairness there, and when it comes to business or registered club, it should be required that all their media is expressed in at least one official language, on top of whatever languages they wish to write it in. Your example is silly as hate-speech is illegal in any language. If I were the person in charge of the signs you are complaining needlessly about, I would translate them in french only. One official language, just like you want. I don't understand the benefit of forcing people to speak a certain language. If the person/company wants to limit the people who hear their message to people who speak a foreign language, what damage does this cause you? Assuming people are sane and don't write horrible things in other languages(seriously do you think anyone could reasonably get away with writing 'death to white people' in, for example, punjabi and hanging that phrase in a public area like a school?) what harm, or even minor inconvenience, does a poster you cannot read cause? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 10:31 Fecalfeast wrote: Your example is silly as hate-speech is illegal in any language. If I were the person in charge of the signs you are complaining needlessly about, I would translate them in french only. One official language, just like you want. I don't understand the benefit of forcing people to speak a certain language. If the person/company wants to limit the people who hear their message to people who speak a foreign language, what damage does this cause you? Assuming people are sane and don't write horrible things in other languages(seriously do you think anyone could reasonably get away with writing 'death to white people' in, for example, punjabi and hanging that phrase in a public area like a school?) what harm, or even minor inconvenience, does a poster you cannot read cause? Because it's not controlled by anyone. Of course my example was a lot more extreme, and would get reported by somebody if enough people saw it, that I'm sure we can agree on. However what if it's subtle stuff, that's not really reportable? Don't you think you should be made aware of the attitudes that are presented by a certain group when that information is presented in public? I'm actually quite surprised others don't at all share this idea. This was a concern to me, because I genuinely felt that it's unfair to other people, and I think it would be unhealthy for a society to have this separation because each culture choosing to go completely their own way, and language is a very powerful force in that. Right now it doesn't seem like an issue, because it's uncommon... But imagine it wasn't? I wouldn't live to live in a country where I don't understand 2/3 of the information in the place I live in, imagine the segregation that creates. I dunno, I just don't see it as "right". | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 10:35 Nyxisto wrote: Well for example Anti-Semitic hate speech is strongly prosecuted here in Germany. If a local community would now start putting up public posters in an uncommon language there would obviously be problems to figure that out in the first place. This is actually not a very outlandish scenario and has happened before. Well if we know there's possible risks, and there is historical evidence, then it might be grounds for it to be illegal. Just keep in mind, my question wasn't in regards to whether this SHOULD be allowed or not. The question was whether it IS allowed or not. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On October 02 2014 10:54 Yoav wrote: Denying people to write/post/advertise in their native language is ridiculous. Sure, there are some cases where you could claim public interest to legitimately insist on official languages (safety warnings, legal notices, area regulations), but these are all special cases. Suppressing a group's language is a means of suppressing that group. I made the argument for businesses and registered groups. Online forums, casual meetings, friends, family, parties... That's all fair game, you have the right to that. Simply put, they are choosing to coming to Canada, nobody is forcing them to Canada, if you want to keep the exact same lifestyle as you have there, then live there. Canada thrives in some multicultural departments simply due to the policies it employs. Canada would not work if the country segregated itself and became very "nationalistic" in a group sense. That's a big cause of WW2 anyway. Segregation between similar people, now tensions are a lot lower, and a common currency, freer trade, etc brings people together and closer to peace (Not the only reason, but a significant one from a few others). On October 02 2014 11:01 Orcasgt24 wrote: As far as I can tell after skimming the Canadian code of advertising as long as the ad meets the requirements of that code then it can be in any language. Only the political campaign ads seemed to have language rules. By totally seperate law all Federal Government advertising must be in both English and French. Thank you! Do you happen to have the link so I could do some additional reading to get first hand understanding of the policy? | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On October 02 2014 10:52 FiWiFaKi wrote: Well if we know there's possible risks, and there is historical evidence, then it might be grounds for it to be illegal. Just keep in mind, my question wasn't in regards to whether this SHOULD be allowed or not. The question was whether it IS allowed or not. If that's all you're asking then a short perusal of google results tells me it is up to the municipality to regulate signage on private property and is not a law to have to translate anything that is not a) the main signage for a storefront or company building b) a food menu I didn't read any official documents so I may be wrong but it looks to me like it's up to the municipal government in your area to decide if a poster/sign is legal or not. | ||
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