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Tachyon
Denmark146 Posts
One can only hope religion will end up like smoking, less and less common until it eventually dies out. Maybe then we can have a real debate about how religion was so bad all along. I hope the kid gets all the support he can get, good to see people taking interest in situations like this. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Question to US people: So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one? What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? Technically they aren't allowed to form some kind of prayer group on school property as that would be a school sponsored club (this may differ area to area, but that was how my high school was.) I believe you can individually pray however you wish, but not sure. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:21 Pandemona wrote: He went about it the wrong way! So many different ways he should of gone about it! It would be like someone standing up to stop christmas because he or she does not beleive in it! If you dont beleive in christmas you don't have to take part. If he didnt beleive in god then he doesnt pray, so he should of just not prayed and moved on, was his last few weeks of school! And the christians who are using him as a tool to inflict hatred into there religion should stop, step back and just ignore him for it, there is no law which means you have to communicate with someone, if you don't like something or someone you don't do it, you do not commit hate crimes cause of it. BOTH partys are wrong and both should forgive and forget. Like the bible says, like the court room says! Nope, what the school was doing was illegal and unconstitutional, he did nothing wrong, and they should not be forgiven for treating him like that. Just bolding and capitalizing the word both doesn't make it any more true. | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Question to US people: So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one? What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? schools can't sanction any religious ceremonies or observances. students are allowed to pray or worship on their own, though. but i think putting a student in charge of doing it would still make the school itself responsible even though it wasn't a school official saying the prayer. | ||
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neohero9
United States595 Posts
The grey area would be whether or not a student/student-group could lead one at an official school function, as part of it. That would require consent of the school, which may constitute endorsement, but I'm not sure. afaik, there's nothing stopping those students who want to pray from praying right before the ceremony and then arriving at the ceremony shortly thereafter. In fact, I'm pretty sure Jesus would have wanted that-- he wasn't big on the whole "praying in public" thing. Frowned on the Pharisees for making a show of it, iirc. Also, Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pastafarian) prayers must be allowed if other prayers are allowed. | ||
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dakalro
Romania525 Posts
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Deleted_143
Australia256 Posts
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aap
5 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:25 dakalro wrote: He must have been devastated by the actions of his parents but at least his brother is there to help, great values these parents got from their religion.. Christianity is against accepting those that fight against it. I also bet this kid really disrespected his parents, because he was let back in at first. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Question to US people: So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one? What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:24 Olinim wrote: Nope, what the school was doing was illegal and unconstitutional, he did nothing wrong, and they should not be forgiven for treating him like that. Hmm, your not understanding both sides of the arguement i dont think. HE one person, took the liberty of getting a school tradition stopped because HE didn't like or beleive in it? 1 person vs the 150/200 other people in his year? or whatever it is in US. How can you blame a full christian community for one person who doesn't look like he was very popular anyway standing up for what he belives in during to the last days of his school life? You argue it was his right to stop a public praying which has been going on for god knows how long? But you should also see the counter argument it is within the right of others not to communicate or to listen to something so anti christian in a christian town? However yes i agree that it should not turn into a hate crime or a manhunt for christianity, but i stand by BOTH partys are wrong. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:30 aap wrote: Christianity is against accepting those that fight against it. I also bet this kid really disrespected his parents, because he was let back in at first. If you think your religion is more important then your children you are seriously twisted. Hmm, your not understanding both sides of the arguement i dont think. HE one person, took the liberty of getting a school tradition stopped because HE didn't like or beleive in it? Majority doesn't overrule the law. If i get a bunch of serial killers together in 1 town i can't suddenly alter the law to make it more killer-friendly. A town can choose not to enforce some things but in the end if push comes to shove the law is right. Public schools, paid for by tax payer money, can't be used to fund something like religion. People are still free too express their religion on their own, just the school shouldn't be organising it. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:32 Pandemona wrote: Hmm, your not understanding both sides of the arguement i dont think. HE one person, took the liberty of getting a school tradition stopped because HE didn't like or beleive in it? 1 person vs the 150/200 other people in his year? or whatever it is in US. How can you blame a full christian community for one person who doesn't look like he was very popular anyway standing up for what he belives in during to the last days of his school life? You argue it was his right to stop a public praying which has been going on for god knows how long? But you should also see the counter argument it is within the right of others not to communicate or to listen to something so anti christian in a christian town? However yes i agree that it should not turn into a hate crime or a manhunt for christianity, but i stand by BOTH partys are wrong. No, he took the liberty of stopping a school tradition BECAUSE IT WAS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL, not just because he didn't like it. The kid did nothing wrong, legally, or morally, where the other party did both, so no they are not BOTH wrong. | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:32 Pandemona wrote: Hmm, your not understanding both sides of the arguement i dont think. HE one person, took the liberty of getting a school tradition stopped because HE didn't like or beleive in it? 1 person vs the 150/200 other people in his year? or whatever it is in US. How can you blame a full christian community for one person who doesn't look like he was very popular anyway standing up for what he belives in during to the last days of his school life? You argue it was his right to stop a public praying which has been going on for god knows how long? But you should also see the counter argument it is within the right of others not to communicate or to listen to something so anti christian in a christian town? However yes i agree that it should not turn into a hate crime or a manhunt for christianity, but i stand by BOTH partys are wrong. It doesn't matter it was one people or hundred, the prayer is illigal. If murder was a tradition, and everybody did it except one guy who complained would he eb wrong too? | ||
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Vetrocide
Norway600 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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aap
5 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote: It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote: One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:32 Pandemona wrote: Hmm, your not understanding both sides of the arguement i dont think. HE one person, took the liberty of getting a school tradition stopped because HE didn't like or beleive in it? 1 person vs the 150/200 other people in his year? or whatever it is in US. How can you blame a full christian community for one person who doesn't look like he was very popular anyway standing up for what he belives in during to the last days of his school life? You argue it was his right to stop a public praying which has been going on for god knows how long? But you should also see the counter argument it is within the right of others not to communicate or to listen to something so anti christian in a christian town? However yes i agree that it should not turn into a hate crime or a manhunt for christianity, but i stand by BOTH partys are wrong. I wouldn't say the kid was wrong. All he did was stop an illegal action from taking place. Let's say instead of a prayer, it was school-sponsored drinking. And let's also say that's been a tradition as well. No one has ever gotten hurt, 'cause let's say it's just half a cup of beer. So no harm. But it's still illegal. As a citizen, you have a right and obligation to stop illegal actions from occurring. Government-sponsored prayers are illegal. You can't ignore that. HOWEVER, I will concede that the kid was extremely stupid and clearly didn't think through his actions. | ||
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aap
5 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:33 zalz wrote: If you think your religion is more important then your children you are seriously twisted. You are seriously twisted for thinking relationships are more important that your beliefs. This kid obviously thought that his beliefs were better than his relationships. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:38 aap wrote: You are seriously twisted for thinking relationships are more important that your beliefs. This kid obviously thought that his beliefs were better than his relationships. They probably were, this kid's parents sound pretty horrible to me. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote: You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. | ||
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