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On May 27 2011 18:35 Vetrocide wrote:
imagine what the world would look like without religion
I think it would look like north korea. Go ahead and move there if you want.
Edit: Who is the atheism=utopia mod who got his panties in a bunch over this.
User was warned for this post
User was banned for this post.
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the school should be closed
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On May 27 2011 18:40 aap wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:35 Vetrocide wrote:
imagine what the world would look like without religion I think it would look like north korea. Go ahead and move there if you want.
Not saying what Vetrocide wrote was any better, but you probably shouldn't make statements such as these. They're needlessly flamy and trolly.
On May 27 2011 18:38 aap wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:33 zalz wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:25 dakalro wrote:
He must have been devastated by the actions of his parents but at least his brother is there to help, great values these parents got from their religion.. Christianity is against accepting those that fight against it. I also bet this kid really disrespected his parents, because he was let back in at first. If you think your religion is more important then your children you are seriously twisted. You are seriously twisted for thinking relationships are more important that your beliefs. This kid obviously thought that his beliefs were better than his relationships.
The parents, despite what their beliefs may be, still should've/could've handled this better. It's still their child. Their beliefs are important, yes, but their reaction was a bit extreme and harsh.
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I had this long post lined up, but then I realized I am so much more upset by the opinions expressed in this thread (you know, about how he's a "smartass" and while harassing him is bad and all that, it's ultimately his fault anyway) than actual events described in the article.
I mean, it's bad enough what happened to the guy, but it's a lot worse knowing it's all been in vain anyway and that people just refuse to point the finger at the actual problem. His "community" is legally in the wrong, morally in the wrong, and in fact they're in the wrong in pretty much every way and by any standards imaginable (yes, even religious/christian "standards", at least nominally). If there's ever been a black and white case conceptually, this is it.
And by the way, I very much doubt the guy did this just to make a point or stand up for his rights, or to claim a moral high ground or anything. A lot of people just don't realize how humiliating and degrading it is for some people to be a participant in a religious ceremony, and (alternatively) how much worse it is to be excluded from some event that should have nothing to do with religion whatsoever. He could choose between excluding himself from the community, or being forced out of it. The former may be a less painful option (mostly in a material sense), but it's not any more pleasant.
Then again, this has become a forum where people support flogging and sipping acid into people's eyes (legally, mind you), so while I'd like to say I'm surprised... no, not really at this point. It seems like a lot of people just got bored and spoiled by the benefits of living in a western civilization, so now they find constitutions, laws and human rights an "overrated" concept.
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On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay.
Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed.
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On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed.
If the constitution doesn't condemn it, it doesn't mean it's legally wrong. There's no legal ground (that I know of) upon which they can remove it. I'm not saying it's right, I'm kinda irked by that too, but the fact of the matter is, the phrase isn't legally in the wrong. Nothing you can do about it really.
EDIT: There are many things that certain groups of people may deem right and others may deem wrong. Since opinions and beliefs always vary, there needs to be a set of compromises that serve as the "correct" option, which is the law. You can't simply change things because group x and y decide they do or do not like it. If that became the case, then minority rights would be non-existent.
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On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed.
I have no idea if this actually happens but in a lot of american tv crime series and movies you see people swear to "tell the whole truth and nothing but...." on the bible in courts. Does this actually happen?
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wait.... how are there prayers at a public school?
Only in America.
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On May 27 2011 18:47 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. I have no idea if this actually happens but in a lot of american tv crime series and movies you see people swear to "tell the whole truth and nothing but...." on the bible in courts. Does this actually happen?
No, at least no where I've seen they ask you that but you don't have to swear on a bible, I',m sure it was probably done at some time in America though.
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On May 27 2011 18:47 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. I have no idea if this actually happens but in a lot of american tv crime series and movies you see people swear to "tell the whole truth and nothing but...." on the bible in courts. Does this actually happen?
Yes, but I believe if you don't believe in the Bible you can ask that the court use a different document/book. Basically the court requires you to swear on something that you won't go back on. So if you don't believe in the Bible, you can request the court to have you swear on something else, like...iunno a copy of the Constitution or something.
It just so happens that the majority of Americans do believe in the Bible, so swearing on the Bible is common-ish.
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On May 27 2011 18:47 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. If the constitution doesn't condemn it, it doesn't mean it's legally wrong. There's no legal ground (that I know of) upon which they can remove it. I'm not saying it's right, I'm kinda irked by that too, but the fact of the matter is, the phrase isn't legally in the wrong. Nothing you can do about it really. EDIT: There are many things that certain groups of people may deem right and others may deem wrong. Since opinions and beliefs always vary, there needs to be a set of compromises that serve as the "correct" option, which is the law. You can't simply change things because group x and y decide they do or do not like it. If that became the case, then minority rights would be non-existent.
It isn't legally immune either, the law can change also.
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On May 27 2011 18:40 aap wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:35 Vetrocide wrote:
imagine what the world would look like without religion I think it would look like north korea. Go ahead and move there if you want.
The DPRK is a prime example of what happens to quality of life when you build a state around the forced worship and servitude towards paranoid, delusional narcissists. They do not have the luxury of freedom of religion.
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On May 27 2011 18:50 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. If the constitution doesn't condemn it, it doesn't mean it's legally wrong. There's no legal ground (that I know of) upon which they can remove it. I'm not saying it's right, I'm kinda irked by that too, but the fact of the matter is, the phrase isn't legally in the wrong. Nothing you can do about it really. EDIT: There are many things that certain groups of people may deem right and others may deem wrong. Since opinions and beliefs always vary, there needs to be a set of compromises that serve as the "correct" option, which is the law. You can't simply change things because group x and y decide they do or do not like it. If that became the case, then minority rights would be non-existent. It isn't legally immune either.
I'm not quite sure what you mean...it's not against the law, so there's nothing anyone can do about it. Not sure what you mean by "legally immune."
EDIT: The law could change, yea but that requires amendments and/or bills, etc... When that happens and that phrase becomes illegal. Then alright, let's change it. But until that happens, if it happens, nothing you can do.
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On May 27 2011 18:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:50 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. If the constitution doesn't condemn it, it doesn't mean it's legally wrong. There's no legal ground (that I know of) upon which they can remove it. I'm not saying it's right, I'm kinda irked by that too, but the fact of the matter is, the phrase isn't legally in the wrong. Nothing you can do about it really. EDIT: There are many things that certain groups of people may deem right and others may deem wrong. Since opinions and beliefs always vary, there needs to be a set of compromises that serve as the "correct" option, which is the law. You can't simply change things because group x and y decide they do or do not like it. If that became the case, then minority rights would be non-existent. It isn't legally immune either. I'm not quite sure what you mean...it's not against the law, so there's nothing anyone can do about it. Not sure what you mean by "legally immune."
Just because it's not against the law doesn't mean it can't be changed is all I'm saying.
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On May 27 2011 18:53 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 18:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:50 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:43 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:36 Olinim wrote:On May 27 2011 18:35 aap wrote:On May 27 2011 18:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 27 2011 18:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Question to US people:
So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
What Im saying is, could the school circumvent the legality by putting a student in charge of leading the prayer or is it more of a 'no praying in school' thing? It's illegal for the school to sponsor a prayer. In other words, since the graduation is a school-sponsored event, they cannot have a prayer on the list of stuff to do basically. If the school wished to say, set aside 10 minutes for "expressive time" or w/e and the students just happened to pray during that time, then that should be okay. The issue is that the school basically scheduled a prayer during the graduation, which is unconstitutional and illegal because the school is a public school and thus funded by the state. If this was a private institution then there's no law preventing this. It's only because it's a public institution. One time at my graduation a person held up some money. It says In God we trust on that stuff. CALL THE ACLU!! You bring up a good point, that garbage should be taken out of the pledge and off our money as well. There's actually a justification for that. The phrase "in God we trust" doesn't actually specify which God. It can refer to Christian God or Ancient Greek God(s). As such, that phrase is more or less a loophole in the whole "religious freedom" clause. In all honesty, if the prayer at this school was an ambiguous non-denominational prayer, it'd probably be okay. Just because the constitution doesn't condemn it doesn't mean it's right, should still be removed. If the constitution doesn't condemn it, it doesn't mean it's legally wrong. There's no legal ground (that I know of) upon which they can remove it. I'm not saying it's right, I'm kinda irked by that too, but the fact of the matter is, the phrase isn't legally in the wrong. Nothing you can do about it really. EDIT: There are many things that certain groups of people may deem right and others may deem wrong. Since opinions and beliefs always vary, there needs to be a set of compromises that serve as the "correct" option, which is the law. You can't simply change things because group x and y decide they do or do not like it. If that became the case, then minority rights would be non-existent. It isn't legally immune either. I'm not quite sure what you mean...it's not against the law, so there's nothing anyone can do about it. Not sure what you mean by "legally immune." Just because it's not against the law doesn't mean it can't be changed is all I'm saying.
Sure, it can be changed, but no one can force it to be changed. Enough people are okay/support the phrase on our money and pledge that it's not likely to get changed.
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I'm not really sure whether those so-called 'Christians' really know what Jesus stood for. Compassion and peace? Nah, lets make death treaths to this kid. Fuck Jesus' teachings!
Disgusting fake Christians... If you are so hellbent on following a religion, at least make sure you actually practice what the religion teaches. You can't pick and choose from existing religions.
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I really really really hope the trolling christians here are actual trolls and not real people.
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I can't speak for all the courts in the country, but in any Federal Court, you raise your right hand when being sworn in. No Bible involved. It's probably the case down through lower levels as well.
As far as the kid and his parents, I seriously doubt there isn't more about why the parents put him out. There was probably some teenage revolting behavior going on that he's not admitting.
Jinro, the kids themselves can do their prayers, it just can't be organized by the school. Athletic teams do it all the time, but it's generally student-lead prayers.
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Organised prayers in public shool. wtf USA.
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