On May 09 2011 18:00 fineshed wrote: You're a bit vague with this argument -- what should a proper climax sound like? Give an example; don't give me a bunch of songs and say they're all lacking in an arbritrary element. Is it quantifiable? I'm gonna need some more specifics on what this crescendo is, because I have a mental image of the banal cliche used in older electronic music where the drums would double in speed every two measures until it reached some ridiculous speed a la Sandstorn.
Like what a lot of other users have probably already pointed out, progressive music doesn't focus on resolving an element fully, but rather progressing from aspect to aspect -- almost like a seamless transition; nothing like the jarring machine-like resolutions in old dance music.
Well, for what it's worth, I like buildups that end in climaxes better than buildups that don't resolve.
On May 09 2011 18:16 airbombas wrote: i dont seem to understand your point. i think the intuitive response is that not all songs in the genre have to obey the same structure. You say you like big climax's and huge drops with about 10,000 layers of synths and percussion, great. some people don't.
Even then , you wouldn't want a whole set of those epic anthems with big climaxes and drops , you need plenty of 'filler' tunes as well with less noticable changes if you understand me.
At least half of the electronica out there is garbage (when you listen to them solo and not in a mix).Seriously there is plenty of crap out there.
Drop these bland tunas at a big rave with heaps of kids on E and most will still think they're amazing tunes - they don't offend anybody; they are trying to attract the MOS/part time crowd , they're not meant for avid listeners of the genres.
The song you are describing and giving as examples have one thing in common - they are shit. While i like some dubstep i generally think trance is shit. Alot of people call the new dubstep brostep with the sole purpose of sick drops so the drugged out "bro's" have something to seizure to at rave's etc Even if you are one of those dubstep hipsters dont listen to those tracks, there are plenty of good ones out there.
Im a big trance fan, and the song you linked first is just awful, cant blame the genre for that :o
There are still artist doing incredible breaks - just check out any track by Nitrous Oxide, Suncatcher, Adam Nickey, Sunny Lax, Andy Blueman, Stonevalley, 7 Skies, Juventa etc
Has to be my fav breakdown of the last few years at 3:30 -> 4:00
Its a UK thing, we took all the commercial climax's out of the rave music when we created DnB to make it more serious/darker/moody and dubstep follows this format a lot, but also puts them back in
Honestly its because of bad musicians not because it sounds better so by 95 they were being put back in, as for trance its not my thing but the whole point is that it builds to a big commercial climax so any trance track that doesnt isnt is a building track, dance music shouldnt be listened to as single tracks but as part of a DJ set where building and climaxes can be spread out by the DJ because the trance DJ's that basically play every song with the same formula are ten years behind the best DJs (same for any other genre)
During the last years, I've been steadily listening to current trends in various different electronic genres and I've noticed a certain shift in many of them, what I like to call the anticlimax.
An anticlimax is a part of the song which is preceded by a nice fill, a progressive 'rise' in the song which is made to get people ready for the climax. But instead of the climax, we get to hear this huge anticlimax which then leads to the rise some time after, facing another anticlimax. After the tune ends I'm left with this "Okay, that was nice but didn't reach the full potential"-feeling.
I've really noticed this mostly in dubstep and trance songs during the last years, and here are a few examples:
Notice at 2:45 how it starts to build up (read this while you listen) - The melody starts to arise from the cutoff and everything is feeling great and you're waiting for the big climax. I could imagine myself at a big trance event, everyone holding their hands up in the air, waiting for the climax to happen
3:42 "I'm getting ready! Let's go! This is the best part before the climax, oh yeaaaaaaaaaah"
4:09 Uh.... "Wait, what? What is this? Uhm, okay..."
You get the idea.
The next one is another known dubstep tune, and I should not probably blame dubstep for it's anticlimaxes because they have been there for a long time and are now an integral part of the genre - But man, I can't sometimes NOT be disappointed:
0:01 - "Oh man, this melody is sick, I love it! I would like to hear a whole dubstep song based on this melody!"
0:13 - "Old school jungle style! This is nuts, I'm waiting for the main part with a genius fusion of this oldskool melody and dubstep rhythm!
0:27 - "HHHHHHNNNNNGGGGGGGGG Okay that's it I'll put it on mute.
"
I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this but the above truly describes how I feel, I feel like a lot of potential wasted from omitting such original and unique melodies, and that's why I'm making a thread for it. I'm curious to know if anyone else has noticed this trend and how they feel about it.
D00d, just listen to the original mix, the song follows exactly as it should. What you linked is a random remix, probably the guy who did it wanted to have his personal touch in the song - besides, I can tell you, the energetic line he introduces at 4:09 is really really amazing to hear at a live concert.
Beautiful song btw, thanks ^^
LE---
As for the second song, there's SO many examples of that in both DnB and Dubstep it's not even funny. But there's a huge amount of people who enjoy that "filthy as fuck" sound as well, so just cos we don't like it don't mean we should judge it. I agree tho, it sounds pretty bleh to me :D
I love dubstep but that does not mean I think every dubstep song is good. OP's second song was imo horrible and first song just plain bad in regards of climax.
E: I listen dubstep almost only while playing intensive games.
On May 09 2011 17:10 DNB wrote: The next one is another known dubstep tune, and I should not probably blame dubstep for it's anticlimaxes because they have been there for a long time and are now an integral part of the genre - But man, I can't sometimes NOT be disappointed:
0:01 - "Oh man, this melody is sick, I love it! I would like to hear a whole dubstep song based on this melody!"
0:13 - "Old school jungle style! This is nuts, I'm waiting for the main part with a genius fusion of this oldskool melody and dubstep rhythm!
0:27 - "HHHHHHNNNNNGGGGGGGGG Okay that's it I'll put it on mute."
Well here's the problem, while I agree that the drop on that track is both screechy and boring/repetitive, the parts you like in both track could point to the fact that you just don't like dubstep. There is also a more technical reason why you don't hear, as you say "the main part with a genius fusion of this oldskool melody and dubstep rhythm". This is the sad fact that you generally can't fit a really cool and intricate dubstep bassline under the more traditional higher melody line and backing chords. Its like you've got these two great things: a giant double cheeseburger with extra bacon, and a delicious slice of dank chocolate cake. You're like "fuck yeah these are two delicious foods I'm just gonna put em in a blender and make like the best breakfast evaaar!", but what comes out is just a gooey disgusting mess. There are only so many frequency ranges you can fill up. The whole idea behind some of the dubstep coming out today is to take the bassline (which is normally very repetitive and if isolated would not be fun to listen to), and through as many tricks and effects as you can, spice up the complexity of the timbres and notes to actually take over the melodic portion of the song. I produce electronic in my free time and believe me, I've tried to mix the big burger and the cake, it rarely works. There is a reason that most of the "fusion" tracks you here stick to rapidly switching between dubstep bass elements and more traditional electro/trance/house lines. Feed Me is one of the artist I would say is at the forefront of mixing the two genres, like this electro/dubstep hybrid.
starts building and breaks into dubstep style bass around 1:15 until 2:30, notice how he deliberately avoids layering the detailed bass and the melody line, instead switching between them.
Then he drops the intricate bass entirely and builds from 2:30 to the drop at 3:00 where he really breaks out the melodic chops (backed by a traditional baseline).
I mean, get any kind of simple music software and start making a beat, you add drums, you add a simple chord progression, sounding better now, you add a higher melody line, now its really interesting, you cram in a simple bassline, still cool, you make a counterpoint melody to the first, wow, theres a lot going on! Try adding a 3rd melody. Now you start running into problems. Shit just starts getting messy, you can't hear whats going on. If you manage to fit something in its proabbly going to be either very simple or very infrequent. When you listen to symphonic music, there are like a hundred instruments, but they aren't all playing different things, in fact, most of them behave as if they are one big instrument.
Also maybe you just have shitty subs and can't hear the bass at all.
On May 09 2011 19:05 resilve wrote: Im a big trance fan, and the song you linked first is just awful, cant blame the genre for that :o
There are still artist doing incredible breaks - just check out any track by Nitrous Oxide, Suncatcher, Adam Nickey, Sunny Lax, Andy Blueman, Stonevalley, 7 Skies, Juventa etc
Has to be my fav breakdown of the last few years at 3:30 -> 4:00
Lol i wouldn't even have picked that as a breakdown , then again i don't listen to hardly any trance. This is what i call a breakdown , most folks should know this one
On May 09 2011 19:05 resilve wrote: Im a big trance fan, and the song you linked first is just awful, cant blame the genre for that :o
There are still artist doing incredible breaks - just check out any track by Nitrous Oxide, Suncatcher, Adam Nickey, Sunny Lax, Andy Blueman, Stonevalley, 7 Skies, Juventa etc
I know what you mean, it seems like this is a common thing in dubstep, you get to a part where you just think to yourself "holy shit, he's gonna tear the shit out of this track now, OH MY GOD HERE IT IS!!!!!!!!!!" and then nothing... This is the reason why i can't seem to get into dubstep, it's like they are purposely trying to make you disappointed.
On May 09 2011 19:05 resilve wrote: Im a big trance fan, and the song you linked first is just awful, cant blame the genre for that :o
There are still artist doing incredible breaks - just check out any track by Nitrous Oxide, Suncatcher, Adam Nickey, Sunny Lax, Andy Blueman, Stonevalley, 7 Skies, Juventa etc
Good thing you brought this up. I myself have been listening to crazy trance tunes lately and have noticed this in some songs. However... drops like these are what I love and are the example of what the anticlimax should turn into ;D
On May 09 2011 19:05 resilve wrote: Im a big trance fan, and the song you linked first is just awful, cant blame the genre for that :o
There are still artist doing incredible breaks - just check out any track by Nitrous Oxide, Suncatcher, Adam Nickey, Sunny Lax, Andy Blueman, Stonevalley, 7 Skies, Juventa etc
On May 09 2011 17:18 JediGamer wrote: It is a shame that dubstep and electronic are in the same category.
But there is almost no difference between them audible to anyone who listens to other forms of music, and dubstep is a form of electronic music.
wut...
No difference between dubstep and what? As you said, dubstep IS electronic music. Between genres like trance and dnb? I'm pretty sure even somone with no music experience at all can telll the difference between 70bpm and 150.
People that create this kind of music just don't know how to write music. This is the result.
People that make electronic music ignore everything that we have learned a about music before them. They live in a word of their own and don't realize the rules of music are universal. The creators of this music aren't interested in what chords are, what harmony is, etc.
One of the main reason is probably because many don't play an instrument and can't improvise anyway. They just copy paste together stuff until they find something that sounds good.
In classical music form is of the utmost important. Every musical element needs to be handled with meticulous care.
Music is both an art and a science. I don't think people in the electronic music world realize either of them. People just lack an academic background.
On May 09 2011 20:49 Suisen wrote: People that create this kind of music just don't know how to write music. This is the result.
People that make electronic music ignore everything that we have learned a about music before them. They live in a word of their own and don't realize the rules of music are universal. The creators of this music aren't interested in what chords are, what harmony is, etc.
One of the main reason is probably because many don't play an instrument and can't improvise anyway. They just copy paste together stuff until they find something that sounds good.
In classical music form is of the utmost important. Every musical element needs to be handled with meticulous care.
Music is both an art and a science. I don't think people in the electronic music world realize either of them. People just lack an academic background.
Plenty of producers go to music school to learn basic music theory , i went to music school and a large part of the course was electronic music production.Other areas included recording a live band with protools , mixing down with both analogue and digital equipment and yes , music theory.
Plenty of them play piano , thats why they hook up a midi keyboard so they can play notes in real time instead of drawing them into the program.
I just thought I'd highlight a song that does not disappointed in this area. It builds up to (or more transitions in to) the super epic end which is climactic in itself. Then it drops, then it builds again, even higher than the first time. And now you are sitting there, blown away that something like this is even possible. And they do it again. I recommend more than I recommend anything.
EPT
Even if you are one of those dubstep hipsters dont listen to those tracks, there are plenty of good ones out there.
