Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans. The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally.
Confirmation was as follows - On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive. - photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis - confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan.
This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death.
On May 02 2011 17:11 MasterFischer wrote: Osama Bin laden was a tyrant and a murderer of civilian and military personnel ALL over the world.
Not just americans, europeans, but his "own" people, muslims, iraqis, pakistanis, irans and so on.
He was a global terrorist, a fantatic, with psychotic visions of how to carry forth the will of his deity and his terrorist people.
His death is a blessing to the world, all across the world. Nobody like him deserves to be left alive, simply because he will never stop trying to upset the peace, order and civility of the human world.
I don't find death and chaos funny, but I i take a particular joy in knowing this dangerous man, is finally no longer on this earth. Alas, the world might JUST be a little.. just a little, more safer, for many many people.
I agree mostly and also take joy in this event. In the long run this is important and will probably weaken the spirit of the current and soon to be terrorists. In the short run the attacks may intensify, so I hope the intelligence forces will stop any terrorist display of anger.
if you really think that this is somehow important in the long run and will weaken the spirit of terrorists you are naive beyond words.
You are just as naive to think your in a position to make such a call.
And you are even more naive to think you are in a position to judge my position to make calls.
This entire thread just reached the point of no return.
On May 02 2011 17:20 Electric.Jesus wrote: merely that they provided Osama with the military and tactical knowledge he used to murder innocent civilians.
But how could they have known that he was going to use that knowledge for terrorism?
Because the entire reason they gave him money and training was to commit terrorist acts against the Soviets...
No they tought him how to engage in guerilla warfare. If you can't tell the difference you need to educate yourself.
This idea that America basically trained Osama Bin Laden is ridiculous and can only be born from the minds of those who know nothing of history. The training he gave him would have in no way aided him in atacking the twin towers unless his atack plan was comprised out of shooting an RPG at the twin towers from a hill and then running away.
Stop spreading falsehoods.
it is actually true. we, the usa, did in fact give money, guns, intelligence, and tactical information to an organization which bin laden was involved with. although those materials and information weren't used to attack us on 9/11, it was used when we engaged al qaeda in military conflicts in the middle east. Wiki says we trained Osama
On May 02 2011 17:20 Electric.Jesus wrote: merely that they provided Osama with the military and tactical knowledge he used to murder innocent civilians.
But how could they have known that he was going to use that knowledge for terrorism?
Because the entire reason they gave him money and training was to commit terrorist acts against the Soviets...
No they tought him how to engage in guerilla warfare. If you can't tell the difference you need to educate yourself.
This idea that America basically trained Osama Bin Laden is ridiculous and can only be born from the minds of those who know nothing of history. The training he gave him would have in no way aided him in atacking the twin towers unless his atack plan was comprised out of shooting an RPG at the twin towers from a hill and then running away.
Stop spreading falsehoods.
The money and training they gave him was organizational as well, not merely how to fire and operate weapons. The CIA also aided him in building contacts and creating training camps. While they didn't "basically train him," they did have a heavy hand in establishing him as an influential figure in the Arab world of extremism.
On May 02 2011 16:27 FireSA wrote: I love the naivety that is people posting not to celebrate a person's death. People are celebrating the death of not only the person, but also what the person represents. Furthermore it is truly difficult not to be overjoyed when an individual who has caused mass murder, and is likely to persist in orchestrating such instances, is killed, especially in a firefight in which he participated. Don't be idiots, really, that is like being told off for celebrating the death of Hitler.
There are people out there who find every human life to be sacred. And while they might be for one dying so that others may live, they wouldn't be "overjoyed" about it.
What you have just referred to is the idea of "sacrifice". What everyone is celebrating is not "sacrifice". It is removal of the primary direct cause of death. You're saying that there is only "sacrifice", which is false. Let me explain.
Your example leans more towards this analogy. If there was a person with a deadly contagious disease, we could kill the person and sacrifice his/her life in order for everyone else to survive. This would indeed make people sad and would not be a case where people should be "overjoyed" about it, though some may be, because the disease will not claim more lives. However, this is not the case with the Osama Bin Laden case.
The Bin Laden case is more of this analogy. He was the deadly disease, and we found a cure that would stop the deaths of innocents. Some people died as we tried to cure them, but now that we have, it's a reason to celebrate.
Neither analogy is fitting, but the first is more fitting than the 2nd. A man is not a disease. If he was a disease then he wouldn't be a man. Are you suggesting that bin laden was born different from everyone else, in a class of wickedness all his own?
I'd much rather people not have to cut their lives short from the decisions they make.
You may say that I am actually treating Bin Laden as not human. Though it is not really related to the current argument, in my opinion, Bin Laden lost his humanhood the moment he decided that terrorism and the murders of innocent civilians and non-combatants were justifiable to achieve his cause. I believe that when a man/woman slaughters innocents, that man/woman (e.g. Bin Laden, Hussein, or Hitler, or a serial murderer on the street) has forfeited their "humanity".
oh, astute, yes I said that.
anyways I disagree with this paragraph. murdering people or having people murdered is just bad decision-making. there is nothing transcendent about it
You also said (in a different post) that Bin Laden had a mother and father, dreams and hopes, etc. So what? Every animal in this world has a birth as well. A man is not defined by what he is born with, but rather by the CHOICES that he makes in his life. Without those choices, he is merely an an animal, having a mother and father.
mostly by his choices yes. but what are our choices based upon? have you made only good choices? are you perfect? when you've faltered, why has that happened?
And though you're apparently trying to sound high-minded by holding this lofty argument, it does little to explain your actual stance. So... do you in fact think that the death of Hitler was not celebration-worthy? Did you think that the death of Saddam Hussein should not have been celebrated by the millions who suffered under his rule?
I didn't know hitler. But both these people were men and my argument is the same. Being happy about positive change makes sense and so does celebrating it if you are into celebrating. But celebrating the ending of someone's life is ignorant.
If you think they are NOT celebration-worthy, then I personally would not want to talk/meet with you, because that means you value their lives as human lives, though they did not value others' lives as human lives. I would actually pity you in a way. If you think they ARE celebration-worthy, then you are clear cut a hypocrite. I don't think I need to explain why.
I don't judge people based on news articles. And yeah, I think there is value in the lives of murderers.
Hmmm, i just woke up. This seems like bullshit. Im watching Obama's video right now but, i dunno, maybe i just woke up and im still in shock. Hope its true. Good Effin Riddance if its true.
On May 02 2011 16:35 travis wrote: "Durrr, you're trolling." Well thought out retort guys. I said nothing that isn't true.
If his death brings more peace to the world then that's great but I am not going to celebrate someone's death, let alone the death of someone I didn't know.
On May 02 2011 16:35 Angra wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:29 diehilde wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:26 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:22 travis wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:08 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:05 Drewx wrote: Wow crazy times we live in. These scenes from the States look crazy would never expect to see anything like that where I live.
If Australia were put into the exact circumstances that the US is currently, the reaction would be exactly the same.
We aren't monsters for celebrating the death of a monster.
ppl are monsters for celebrating any man's death, if that's what they are actually celebrating
he was born a child, he had a mother and father and hopes and dreams. he had challenges and successes and love and fear and hate. that's reality. he was just a man like you or me and now he is dead.
You're a fool if you actually feel this way. Sure, he was a man, just like you and me, but that is where the similarities end. He was human, but there was no humanity about him. I celebrate his death because he deserved to die, and that is undeniable.
with the same reasoning people in the middle east celebrated the death of the 9/11 victims. I guess the difference is they are wrong and you are right, isnt it?
What if the people seen celebrating had family or friends who died in the 9/11 attacks? Shouldn't they be happy then that their family/friends' killer was brought to justice? Or should they just take it with a straight face and show no emotion whatsoever, even though they had personal connections to deaths from a terrorist attack? Maybe you're the one who's being insensitive by telling other people how they should be reacting when they could potentially have a HUGE emotional investment in this whole thing, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, children, loved friends. Ever think about that?
Those people would be celebrating in the name of revenge. And while that's common, it's definitely on the undesirable side when it comes to behavior.
Anyways, most of these people were not that emotionally invested.
He was undeniably evil. But what made him that way? Reflecting on his life, we should mourn for the hate and anger that people inflict on one another that cause these actions. If he was brought up in a 1st world, developed country - I'm sure his life would have gone differently.
Instead of striving for understanding and compassion, we cheer the death of our enemies. It's self destructive.
If he was brought up in a 1st world developed country? He came from an extremely wealthy family. The man was a mass murderer. He is the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
I celebrate him being killed. Why? Because he deserved it. Because I know people who lost family in 9/11. They have told be they can sleep just a little bit easier knowing he has been killed. That right there is enough for me to celebrate because those people have gone through hell and they never deserved it. This man brought so much pain to millions of people. Him being killed helps relieve it just a tiny bit.
So before you criticize someone for celebrating his death, imagine your brother being killed along with 1000s of others because of this man. Wouldn't you be happy that the man responsible for it all has been brought to justice?
He hated who he hated because that's who he was taught to hate. 250,000 Japanese civilians were killed when the US Firebombed Japanese civilian populations. 250,000 innocent people, burned to death. The giving end calls it war, the receiving end calls it terrorism. It's all about perspective.
Osama was a bad man, but in the end killing him means nothing. It's only a change in the current in the ocean of worldly hate. It's the misunderstanding and lack of tolerance that people need to fight. As Che Guevara once said : "Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man".
"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. "
"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. "
"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. "
After reports of repeated initial denials,[93] in 2004 Osama bin Laden claimed responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.[94][95][96] The attacks involved the hijacking of four commercial passenger aircraft,[97] the subsequent destruction of those planes and the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, severe damage to The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia,[98] and the deaths of 2,974 people and the nineteen hijackers.[99] In response to the attacks, the United States launched a War on Terror to depose the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and capture al-Qaeda operatives, and several countries strengthened their anti-terrorism legislation to preclude future attacks. The CIA's Special Activities Division was given the lead in tracking down and killing or capturing bin Laden.[100]
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that classified[101] evidence linking Al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.[102] The UK Government reached a similar conclusion regarding Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11, 2001, attacks although the government report notes that the evidence presented is insufficient for a prosecutable case.[103] Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the attacks. On September 16, 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel denying responsibility for the attack.[104]
In a videotape recovered by US forces in November 2001 in Jalalabad, bin Laden was seen discussing the attack with Khaled al-Harbi in a way that indicates foreknowledge.[105] The tape was broadcast on various news networks on December 13, 2001. The merits of this translation have been disputed. Arabist Dr. Abdel El M. Husseini stated: "This translation is very problematic. At the most important places where it is held to prove the guilt of bin Laden, it is not identical with the Arabic."[106]
In the 2004 Osama bin Laden video, bin Laden abandoned his denials without retracting past statements. In it he stated he had personally directed the nineteen hijackers.[95][107] In the 18-minute tape, played on Al-Jazeera, four days before the American presidential election, bin Laden accused U.S. President George W. Bush of negligence on the hijacking of the planes on September 11.[95]
According to the tapes, bin Laden claimed he was inspired to destroy the World Trade Center after watching the destruction of towers in Lebanon by Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War.[108]
In two other tapes aired by Al Jazeera in 2006, Osama bin Laden announces,
I am the one in charge of the nineteen brothers ... I was responsible for entrusting the nineteen brothers ... with the raids [5 minute audiotape broadcast May 23, 2006],[109]
and is seen with Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as two of the 9/11 hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks (videotape broadcast September 7, 2006).[110] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#September_11_attacks
On May 02 2011 16:35 travis wrote: "Durrr, you're trolling." Well thought out retort guys. I said nothing that isn't true.
If his death brings more peace to the world then that's great but I am not going to celebrate someone's death, let alone the death of someone I didn't know.
On May 02 2011 16:35 Angra wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:29 diehilde wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:26 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:22 travis wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:08 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:05 Drewx wrote: Wow crazy times we live in. These scenes from the States look crazy would never expect to see anything like that where I live.
If Australia were put into the exact circumstances that the US is currently, the reaction would be exactly the same.
We aren't monsters for celebrating the death of a monster.
ppl are monsters for celebrating any man's death, if that's what they are actually celebrating
he was born a child, he had a mother and father and hopes and dreams. he had challenges and successes and love and fear and hate. that's reality. he was just a man like you or me and now he is dead.
You're a fool if you actually feel this way. Sure, he was a man, just like you and me, but that is where the similarities end. He was human, but there was no humanity about him. I celebrate his death because he deserved to die, and that is undeniable.
with the same reasoning people in the middle east celebrated the death of the 9/11 victims. I guess the difference is they are wrong and you are right, isnt it?
What if the people seen celebrating had family or friends who died in the 9/11 attacks? Shouldn't they be happy then that their family/friends' killer was brought to justice? Or should they just take it with a straight face and show no emotion whatsoever, even though they had personal connections to deaths from a terrorist attack? Maybe you're the one who's being insensitive by telling other people how they should be reacting when they could potentially have a HUGE emotional investment in this whole thing, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, children, loved friends. Ever think about that?
Those people would be celebrating in the name of revenge. And while that's common, it's definitely on the undesirable side when it comes to behavior.
Anyways, most of these people were not that emotionally invested.
He was undeniably evil. But what made him that way? Reflecting on his life, we should mourn for the hate and anger that people inflict on one another that cause these actions. If he was brought up in a 1st world, developed country - I'm sure his life would have gone differently.
Instead of striving for understanding and compassion, we cheer the death of our enemies. It's self destructive.
If he was brought up in a 1st world developed country? He came from an extremely wealthy family. The man was a mass murderer. He is the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
I celebrate him being killed. Why? Because he deserved it. Because I know people who lost family in 9/11. They have told be they can sleep just a little bit easier knowing he has been killed. That right there is enough for me to celebrate because those people have gone through hell and they never deserved it. This man brought so much pain to millions of people. Him being killed helps relieve it just a tiny bit.
So before you criticize someone for celebrating his death, imagine your brother being killed along with 1000s of others because of this man. Wouldn't you be happy that the man responsible for it all has been brought to justice?
He hated who he hated because that's who he was taught to hate. 250,000 Japanese civilians were killed when the US Firebombed Japanese civilian populations. 250,000 innocent people, burned to death. The giving end calls it war, the receiving end calls it terrorism.
Osama was a bad man, but in the end killing him means nothing. It's only a change in the current in the ocean of worldly hate. It's the misunderstanding and lack of tolerance that people need to fight. As Che Guavera once said : "Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man".
It's not who he was taught to hate, it is who he decided to hate. His sister doesn't hate the people he did and they grew up together. Its not something he was being fed since birth. It was a decision he made.
And you cannot compare WWII to what Osama did. Sure killing him doesn't end terrorism, but it certainly does mean something to those who have been effected by his attacks on innocent people.
"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. "
After reports of repeated initial denials,[93] in 2004 Osama bin Laden claimed responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.[94][95][96] The attacks involved the hijacking of four commercial passenger aircraft,[97] the subsequent destruction of those planes and the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, severe damage to The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia,[98] and the deaths of 2,974 people and the nineteen hijackers.[99] In response to the attacks, the United States launched a War on Terror to depose the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and capture al-Qaeda operatives, and several countries strengthened their anti-terrorism legislation to preclude future attacks. The CIA's Special Activities Division was given the lead in tracking down and killing or capturing bin Laden.[100]
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that classified[101] evidence linking Al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.[102] The UK Government reached a similar conclusion regarding Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11, 2001, attacks although the government report notes that the evidence presented is insufficient for a prosecutable case.[103] Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the attacks. On September 16, 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel denying responsibility for the attack.[104]
In a videotape recovered by US forces in November 2001 in Jalalabad, bin Laden was seen discussing the attack with Khaled al-Harbi in a way that indicates foreknowledge.[105] The tape was broadcast on various news networks on December 13, 2001. The merits of this translation have been disputed. Arabist Dr. Abdel El M. Husseini stated: "This translation is very problematic. At the most important places where it is held to prove the guilt of bin Laden, it is not identical with the Arabic."[106]
In the 2004 Osama bin Laden video, bin Laden abandoned his denials without retracting past statements. In it he stated he had personally directed the nineteen hijackers.[95][107] In the 18-minute tape, played on Al-Jazeera, four days before the American presidential election, bin Laden accused U.S. President George W. Bush of negligence on the hijacking of the planes on September 11.[95]
According to the tapes, bin Laden claimed he was inspired to destroy the World Trade Center after watching the destruction of towers in Lebanon by Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War.[108]
In two other tapes aired by Al Jazeera in 2006, Osama bin Laden announces,
I am the one in charge of the nineteen brothers ... I was responsible for entrusting the nineteen brothers ... with the raids [5 minute audiotape broadcast May 23, 2006],[109]
and is seen with Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as two of the 9/11 hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks (videotape broadcast September 7, 2006).[110] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#September_11_attacks
thats interesting... cause in earlier tapes he said he wasnt the mastermind behind it
UPDATE: Osama Bin Laden Body Headed for Burial at Sea, Officials Say
ABC News' Jonathan Karl (@jonkarl) reports: Now that bin Laden has been killed and his body has been positively identified, what is to be done with his remains?
U.S. officials tell me the last thing they want is for his burial place to become a terrorist shrine.
To avoid that, an informed source tells me, the intention is the bury his body at sea -- leaving no definitive location for the final resting place of his body.
WASHINGTON (AP) — A U.S. official says Osama bin Laden has been buried at sea.
After bin Laden was killed in a raid by U.S. forces in Pakistan, senior administration officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours, the official said. Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world's most wanted terrorist would have been difficult, the official said. So the U.S. decided to bury him at sea.
The official, who spoke Monday on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive national security matters, did not immediately say where that occurred.
On May 02 2011 17:42 [F_]aths wrote: I am not unhappy that he is dead, however I don't think it is okay to kill him without trial and to kill surrounding people, too.
He DECLARED WAR on the united states.
When you declare war on something, that thing might kill you.
EPT
