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On April 12 2011 02:01 holynorth wrote:
Mythito, you seem pretty angry man. This upsetting you?
You're comparison to punching a punching bag twice is also pointless. If both people punched a punching bag twice, they would tire the exact same way and hit it both times identically.
Keep raging though. It's entertaining.
should it not upset me that society is filled with incredibly stupid people? i have natural instincts to yearn for the human species to advance evolutionarily as far as possible and ignorant fucktards like yourself are no more than a detriment
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 12 2011 01:21 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 01:19 Tschis wrote:On April 12 2011 00:47 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 00:08 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 23:41 zJayy962 wrote:On April 11 2011 23:32 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 20:16 Earll wrote:On April 11 2011 20:11 Tschis wrote:
Just because it's a clone it doesn't mean you'll have the same thought process.
That's like saying your thought process is already decided and all the thoughts you'll have in life are already pre-determined.
//tx Yes you will, if you do not then it is not an excact clone. Your thoughts are not pre-determined, excactly what they are decided by is obviously somewhat hard to pinpoint but it is probably mainly influenced by your past (the clone has the excact same past\memory) your enviorment (clone has excact same enviorment) And genetics (clone has excact same genetics.) D=? Just because you're in the same environment and he is a clone, doesn't mean you'll do the same things. You're both looking at each other, now your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left. Your thoughts aren't pre-determined. Your reactions could be the same if everything is the same, but just because the environtment is the same and you're both inside it, doesn't mean you'll act equally. If he is looking to the right and you attack, he'll see the action happening in a different way you're seeing, so your actions won't be the same. //tx A circular environment is the same if both of you are standing at equal lengths to the center of the circle Yes, I've affirmed they are the same in my post. //tx although i don't think the fight would be exactly mirrored by both clones, your logic of "your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left" is flawed, you said "Your thoughts aren't pre-determined" but you can't assume that you wouldn't both look to the right, that's just a wild statement, at best it would be a poor hypothesis It isn't flawed just because I assumed something, in fact, it's much easier to have different actions being done than having equal mirroed actions, so it's more like assuming that both will do the exact same thing that is flawed. If you look a milimiter further than him, that could change the outcome of your perception and therefore the logic behind your actions. //tx I agree that such a difference would cause further differences. But that original difference in actions should never happen. Why would it? What would cause it? It has to begin somewhere, but there is nothing to cause it.
Humans can do stuff just because "they feel like it". It's random, or at least we don't fully understand it yet.
I don't need a particular reason to wonder around my room looking at everything just because I felt like doing so. But that doesn't mean that if a clone of mine were in the room, he'd be doing the same. Maybe he wouldn't feel the same way. Maybe he just felt like closing his eyes and wonder why the hell is a guy just like him looking around like an idiot =P
//tx
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mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist?
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On April 12 2011 02:11 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 01:21 holynorth wrote:On April 12 2011 01:19 Tschis wrote:On April 12 2011 00:47 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 00:08 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 23:41 zJayy962 wrote:On April 11 2011 23:32 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 20:16 Earll wrote:On April 11 2011 20:11 Tschis wrote:
Just because it's a clone it doesn't mean you'll have the same thought process.
That's like saying your thought process is already decided and all the thoughts you'll have in life are already pre-determined.
//tx Yes you will, if you do not then it is not an excact clone. Your thoughts are not pre-determined, excactly what they are decided by is obviously somewhat hard to pinpoint but it is probably mainly influenced by your past (the clone has the excact same past\memory) your enviorment (clone has excact same enviorment) And genetics (clone has excact same genetics.) D=? Just because you're in the same environment and he is a clone, doesn't mean you'll do the same things. You're both looking at each other, now your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left. Your thoughts aren't pre-determined. Your reactions could be the same if everything is the same, but just because the environtment is the same and you're both inside it, doesn't mean you'll act equally. If he is looking to the right and you attack, he'll see the action happening in a different way you're seeing, so your actions won't be the same. //tx A circular environment is the same if both of you are standing at equal lengths to the center of the circle Yes, I've affirmed they are the same in my post. //tx although i don't think the fight would be exactly mirrored by both clones, your logic of "your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left" is flawed, you said "Your thoughts aren't pre-determined" but you can't assume that you wouldn't both look to the right, that's just a wild statement, at best it would be a poor hypothesis It isn't flawed just because I assumed something, in fact, it's much easier to have different actions being done than having equal mirroed actions, so it's more like assuming that both will do the exact same thing that is flawed. If you look a milimiter further than him, that could change the outcome of your perception and therefore the logic behind your actions. //tx I agree that such a difference would cause further differences. But that original difference in actions should never happen. Why would it? What would cause it? It has to begin somewhere, but there is nothing to cause it. Humans can do stuff just because "they feel like it". It's random, or at least we don't fully understand it yet. I don't need a particular reason to wonder around my room looking at everything just because I felt like doing so. But that doesn't mean that if a clone of mine were in the room, he'd be doing the same. Maybe he wouldn't feel the same way. Maybe he just felt like closing his eyes and wonder why the hell is a guy just like him looking around like an idiot =P //tx
Like bigbeau said, random doesn't exist. Your thought is driven by experience and environment. Both people will do the same "random" things at the exact same time.
On April 12 2011 02:11 Mythito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:01 holynorth wrote:
Mythito, you seem pretty angry man. This upsetting you?
You're comparison to punching a punching bag twice is also pointless. If both people punched a punching bag twice, they would tire the exact same way and hit it both times identically.
Keep raging though. It's entertaining. should it not upset me that society is filled with incredibly stupid people? i have natural instincts to yearn for the human species to advance evolutionarily as far as possible and ignorant fucktards like yourself are no more than a detriment
I'll take that as "I realize I can't argue with you anymore because I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. No gg."
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On April 12 2011 02:11 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 01:21 holynorth wrote:On April 12 2011 01:19 Tschis wrote:On April 12 2011 00:47 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 00:08 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 23:41 zJayy962 wrote:On April 11 2011 23:32 Tschis wrote:On April 11 2011 20:16 Earll wrote:On April 11 2011 20:11 Tschis wrote:
Just because it's a clone it doesn't mean you'll have the same thought process.
That's like saying your thought process is already decided and all the thoughts you'll have in life are already pre-determined.
//tx Yes you will, if you do not then it is not an excact clone. Your thoughts are not pre-determined, excactly what they are decided by is obviously somewhat hard to pinpoint but it is probably mainly influenced by your past (the clone has the excact same past\memory) your enviorment (clone has excact same enviorment) And genetics (clone has excact same genetics.) D=? Just because you're in the same environment and he is a clone, doesn't mean you'll do the same things. You're both looking at each other, now your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left. Your thoughts aren't pre-determined. Your reactions could be the same if everything is the same, but just because the environtment is the same and you're both inside it, doesn't mean you'll act equally. If he is looking to the right and you attack, he'll see the action happening in a different way you're seeing, so your actions won't be the same. //tx A circular environment is the same if both of you are standing at equal lengths to the center of the circle Yes, I've affirmed they are the same in my post. //tx although i don't think the fight would be exactly mirrored by both clones, your logic of "your clone decides to look to the right while you can just decide to look to the left" is flawed, you said "Your thoughts aren't pre-determined" but you can't assume that you wouldn't both look to the right, that's just a wild statement, at best it would be a poor hypothesis It isn't flawed just because I assumed something, in fact, it's much easier to have different actions being done than having equal mirroed actions, so it's more like assuming that both will do the exact same thing that is flawed. If you look a milimiter further than him, that could change the outcome of your perception and therefore the logic behind your actions. //tx I agree that such a difference would cause further differences. But that original difference in actions should never happen. Why would it? What would cause it? It has to begin somewhere, but there is nothing to cause it. Humans can do stuff just because "they feel like it". It's random, or at least we don't fully understand it yet. I don't need a particular reason to wonder around my room looking at everything just because I felt like doing so. But that doesn't mean that if a clone of mine were in the room, he'd be doing the same. Maybe he wouldn't feel the same way. Maybe he just felt like closing his eyes and wonder why the hell is a guy just like him looking around like an idiot =P //tx
the only reason he might not feel the same way is because you are in different positions in an asymmetrical room. which is not the case in the OP
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On April 10 2011 06:30 eduh wrote:
there is a certain randomness to your decision making process, so you wouldnt be mimicking each other.
There is not. I think absolute mirroring would happen too.
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On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist?
bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something.
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On April 12 2011 02:18 Mythito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist? bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something.
Tell me one thing that is random, and I will prove how it is not random.
Algorithmic probability
Chaos theory
Cryptography
Game theory
Information theory
Pattern recognition
Probability theory
Quantum mechanics
Statistics
Statistical mechanics
Those are all the fields that deal with "randomness" go research it if you want.
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well give me a single sample of randomness. there is none. rolling a dice isnt random. flipping a coin isnt random. why do you think an algorithm cant be created to create a random number/variable for example in online poker. those cards arent random. they are just sent through an extremely complex algorithm to appear to be random. if you knew that algorithm, you could cheat. everything can be explained by math, meaning there exists an algorithm to explain every action, whether you can figure it out or not.
there are 52 cards in a deck. if the top card is an ace, what is the probability that the top card is an ace? 100% obviously.
now if you dont know that the top card is an ace, what is the probability that the top cardis an ace (same deck)? still 100%
theres nothing random about the top card being an ace.
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On April 12 2011 02:14 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:11 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 02:01 holynorth wrote:
Mythito, you seem pretty angry man. This upsetting you?
You're comparison to punching a punching bag twice is also pointless. If both people punched a punching bag twice, they would tire the exact same way and hit it both times identically.
Keep raging though. It's entertaining. should it not upset me that society is filled with incredibly stupid people? i have natural instincts to yearn for the human species to advance evolutionarily as far as possible and ignorant fucktards like yourself are no more than a detriment I'll take that as "I realize I can't argue with you anymore because I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. No gg."
ahhaha wait, you are the one who stopped arguing by not saying anything new and just saying the same thing over and over. here, i'll simulate our conversation for you:
you: exact same is exact same
me: i disagree because of this..
you: you are wrong
me: what? how am i wrong? you can't just say that without anything to back it up
you: you are wrong. exact same is exact same
me: no but i disagree because of this...
you: exact same is exact same
me: why do you keep saying that?
you: exact same is exact same
me: but what if it's not?
you: exact same is exact same
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there would be a lot of scratching and biting and pinching
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On April 12 2011 02:19 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:18 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist? bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something. Tell me one thing that is random, and I will prove how it is not random. Algorithmic probability Chaos theory Cryptography Game theory Information theory Pattern recognition Probability theory Quantum mechanics Statistics Statistical mechanics Those are all the fields that deal with "randomness" go research it if you want.
please elaborate me how quantum mechanics isnt random..
In my opinion, for the sake of this debate - if the room is identical and symetrical (definition?) for both clones but the electromagnetic interactions between atoms are driven by the laws of quantum mechanics identical to those in our universe there would be some randomness in the mental processes or physical execution.
and you can also elaborate me why you consider only materialistic theory of mind, do you have any proof this is the right one? (dualistic being the other)
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Quantum mechanics is the body of scientific principles which attempts to explain the behavior of matter and its interactions with energy on the scale of atoms and atomic particles.
it attempts to explain the behavior of matter at an atomic level how is that random? it attempts to solve what seems random such as electrons.
and it only applies on the atomic level. so theoretically (since this whole argument is theoretical lol) you could say that the effect created by quantum mechanics would influence the fight.
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As I'm about to start fighting, my brain would explode from trying to understand why I'm standing in a room with my perfect clone in front of me, and the only idea in mind is to fight with him...
I would wonder so much and try to convince myself not to fight, that the unsurmountable unknown force that wants me to fight him would simply make my and my clone's brains explode out of boredom, so they can try their sick plans on another unsuspecting TL member.
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On April 12 2011 02:28 sTromSK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:19 holynorth wrote:On April 12 2011 02:18 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist? bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something. Tell me one thing that is random, and I will prove how it is not random. Algorithmic probability Chaos theory Cryptography Game theory Information theory Pattern recognition Probability theory Quantum mechanics Statistics Statistical mechanics Those are all the fields that deal with "randomness" go research it if you want. please elaborate me how quantum mechanics isnt random.. In my opinion, for the sake of this debate - if the room is identical and symetrical (definition?) for both clones but the electromagnetic interactions between atoms are driven by the laws of quantum mechanics identical to those in our universe there would be some randomness in the mental processes or physical execution. and you can also elaborate me why you consider only materialistic theory of mind, do you have any proof this is the right one? (dualistic being the other)
We are presuming that their experiences and memories are identical as well as the physical build up. Looks like body and mind are identical, no matter which theory we follow.
I never meant to say Quantum physics was or isn't randomness, just that those fields of study were the ones relating to randomness and that he should go look it up and read on it a bit.
I don't know enough about the field to make any assumptions about it, but I still don't believe random is possible. I read up the wiki page and the only random thing on there is that we can't find a time-pattern on a few wave-functions. Sounds like this field needs more research before it means anything.
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On April 12 2011 02:40 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:28 sTromSK wrote:On April 12 2011 02:19 holynorth wrote:On April 12 2011 02:18 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist? bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something. Tell me one thing that is random, and I will prove how it is not random. Algorithmic probability Chaos theory Cryptography Game theory Information theory Pattern recognition Probability theory Quantum mechanics Statistics Statistical mechanics Those are all the fields that deal with "randomness" go research it if you want. please elaborate me how quantum mechanics isnt random.. In my opinion, for the sake of this debate - if the room is identical and symetrical (definition?) for both clones but the electromagnetic interactions between atoms are driven by the laws of quantum mechanics identical to those in our universe there would be some randomness in the mental processes or physical execution. and you can also elaborate me why you consider only materialistic theory of mind, do you have any proof this is the right one? (dualistic being the other) We are presuming that their experiences and memories are identical as well as the physical build up. Looks like body and mind are identical, no matter which theory we follow. I never meant to say Quantum physics was or isn't randomness, just that those fields of study were the ones relating to randomness and that he should go look it up and read on it a bit. I don't know enough about the field to make any assumptions about it, but I still don't believe random is possible. I read up the wiki page and the only random thing on there is that we can't find a time-pattern on a few wave-functions. Sounds like this field needs more research before it means anything.
oh i'm sorry, did i ask for further reading on the subject? pretty sure i asked for proof...
and
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist?
that sure sounds like making assumptions about it. (i know it wasn't you but you backed it up)
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mythito are you aware that 1+1 = 2?
thats not an assumption...just because i phrase it that way doesnt mean its an assumption.
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On April 12 2011 02:40 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:28 sTromSK wrote:On April 12 2011 02:19 holynorth wrote:On April 12 2011 02:18 Mythito wrote:On April 12 2011 02:12 bigbeau wrote:
mythito are you aware that randomness doesnt exist? bahahhah source me proof of that one. and not some philosophical argument, give me definitive proof if you're gonna walk in and just state something. Tell me one thing that is random, and I will prove how it is not random. Algorithmic probability Chaos theory Cryptography Game theory Information theory Pattern recognition Probability theory Quantum mechanics Statistics Statistical mechanics Those are all the fields that deal with "randomness" go research it if you want. please elaborate me how quantum mechanics isnt random.. In my opinion, for the sake of this debate - if the room is identical and symetrical (definition?) for both clones but the electromagnetic interactions between atoms are driven by the laws of quantum mechanics identical to those in our universe there would be some randomness in the mental processes or physical execution. and you can also elaborate me why you consider only materialistic theory of mind, do you have any proof this is the right one? (dualistic being the other) We are presuming that their experiences and memories are identical as well as the physical build up. Looks like body and mind are identical, no matter which theory we follow. I never meant to say Quantum physics was or isn't randomness, just that those fields of study were the ones relating to randomness and that he should go look it up and read on it a bit. I don't know enough about the field to make any assumptions about it, but I still don't believe random is possible. I read up the wiki page and the only random thing on there is that we can't find a time-pattern on a few wave-functions. Sounds like this field needs more research before it means anything.
then you dont know enough about dualistic theory of mind its about mind being a qualitatively different substance than body and somehow (mind-body problem) interacts with matter. In this theory mind is independent from materialistic processes (states of brain etc.) and therefore the clones wouldnt necessary mirror each other.
if you dont think randomness exists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator
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I read the first and last page of this thread and my head exploded.
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Assuming that the room is in perfect symmetry, you and your clone are standing in a symmetrical location and stance relative to one another and your clone somehow has the same exact thought pattern as you do, there is still one factor that will make it a dynamic fight rather then a mirror image. You state that this clone was spawned the second you walked into the room, although has the same experiences and such as you do.
However, you have just experienced a feeling, maybe something that made you happy or sad and the chemical reaction in your body to create that emotional sensation is still somewhat active, whereas to the clone it is a mere memory. He was just spawned. If I come across something, I do not feel the same about it directly after it happens as opposed to when looking back at it as a memory. So you have yourself, which has an emotional advantage or disadvantage, opposed to your clone in an essentially neutral state. This will dictate each other's decision making. Idk about you, but I seem to be much more dangerous when I am angry then when I am feeling okay. So my conclusion is the element of emotion overrules logic pattern enough to alter it.
Trying to further this by saying the clone spawned prior to entering the room is pretty pointless and you might as well be asking how would it play out if you were trying to punch yourself in the face.
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EPT
