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I have a short, but very open ended question to ask, which will hopefully produce a good discussion. I use the term 'smart' because it is ambiguous, and I want to see how people interpret my question.
Do RTS games make you smarter?
I'm tending to think they do in a variety of ways, however I'm hoping that it doesn't just make you smarter at RTS games, but in general.
Let's use Starcraft 2.
The examples in parentheses are just examples.
- Decision making (Will the decision to attack/back off/work on macro be worth it?)
- Forward thinking (Based on 'x' set of circumstances what do I need to prepare for?)
- Deductive reasoning (Based on the information that I have attained, can I deduce that he will be going for 'x' build?.)
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted 4 Warpgates, I should expect a 4gate push very soon.)
I don't want to add anymore. I would rather you interpret what I asked for yourself.
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I don't think you can say it makes you smarter. I find RTS games to be helpful as they improve/support a certain way of thinking and dealing with problems which can be found in various aspects of life.
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I don't think they make you smarter persay, but perhaps playing SCII in moderation may help to keep your mind active and sharp, considering it requires you to use reflexes, decision making, etc.
Edit: Moreover, people don't get smarter as time progresses. Everyone is born with a certain degree of "intelligence" (whatever that means), and I doubt people will become more so as they mature.
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Nah, I'm as stupid as ever 
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I think it's more like RTS attract smarter people.
The again let's not kid ourselves, we really aren't much smarter than the average population if you look at it from a realistic perspective. Hardcore gamers just have different values I suppose.
Edit: Getting better at Starcraft improves reflexes. For most part that's what SC2 is - knowing what to do from previous experiences, whether it's knowing if your army can take your opponents, subconcious micro. It improves your mouse speed too, but I don't believe it makes you smarter.
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Hmm well Starcraft has certainly made me more self-critical and self-aware of my strengths and weaknesses, which also apply to real-life aswell. Take for example decision making in stressful and uncomfortable situations, I usually do quite bad decisions irl/sc. This was highlighted in SC and I'm currently in progress of trying to build up a proper mindset for it.
I think generally when you really try improving in certain tasks, you'll haft to eventually recognize and accept your weaknesses in order to progress.
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Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it.
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Yeah, I mean you can't gain any knowledge about anything but SC2, but playing SC2 improves on skills that you already have. I agree =)
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I wouldn't say it makes you 'smarter.' You already pointed out that your reasoning skills are tested and extended. Playing RTS forces you to organize your thinking, too.
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I don't they make you smarter. They do give an opportunity that you can just utilize certain parts of your brain that you don't really use on a normal basis.
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+ Show Spoiler +I have a short, but very open ended question to ask, which will hopefully produce a good discussion. I use the term 'smart' because it is ambiguous, and I want to see how people interpret my question.
Does running drugs make you smarter?
I'm tending to think they do in a variety of ways, however I'm hoping that it doesn't just make you smarter at RTS games, but in general.
Let's use Cocaine Smuggling.
The examples in parentheses are just examples.
- Decision making (Will the decision to sell/grow/smuggle be worth it?)
- Forward thinking (Based on 'x' set of circumstances what do I need to prepare for?)
- Deductive reasoning (Based on the information that I have attained, can I deduce that he is an undercover cop and will bust my ass?)
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted the background of this guy and it came up cop, I should expect a sting at our transaction.)
I don't want to add anymore. I would rather you interpret what I asked for yourself.
In short, I don't know if it will makes one "smarter" because the term "smarter" is an objective measure. By your measures being used, everything in life should make one smarter. But they don't. That's because one doesn't have to choose to learn from the experience. One can play SC2 and not get smarter just because they aren't thinking critically. Just like idiots can go on dealing drugs and keep getting busted over and over again. So no, RTS games don't inherently make you smarter by your playing them, they just give you another opportunity to use critical thinking. The question of whether playing video games stimulates learning centers in the brain though, IS an interesting question and studies HAVE shown that they do increase spatial skills in people.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W52-46H16MP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=03/31/1994&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1710083030&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f06b223cfbd142812f40216473d570b6&searchtype=a
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I think it can really shape you in your characteristics as a person... at least that's what day9 says that happened with him xD
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The high-school quarterback may be an all-star, but he doesn't necessarily get good grades. I'm just sayin...
But, if you have the ability to apply this critical thinking to Starcraft, then you could just as well apply it to other life aspects as well. Does it make you smarter? Probably not, but if you are "dumb" and became good at Starcraft, then you have the potential to become "smart" and are just not applying yourself.
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On April 08 2011 08:52 kurse3 wrote:
I have a short, but very open ended question to ask, which will hopefully produce a good discussion. I use the term 'smart' because it is ambiguous, and I want to see how people interpret my question.
Do RTS games make you smarter?
I'm tending to think they do in a variety of ways, however I'm hoping that it doesn't just make you smarter at RTS games, but in general.
Let's use Starcraft 2.
The examples in parentheses are just examples.
- Decision making (Will the decision to attack/back off/work on macro be worth it?)
- Forward thinking (Based on 'x' set of circumstances what do I need to prepare for?)
- Deductive reasoning (Based on the information that I have attained, can I deduce that he will be going for 'x' build?.)
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted 4 Warpgates, I should expect a 4gate push very soon.)
I don't want to add anymore. I would rather you interpret what I asked for yourself.
If you have trouble following basic human logic and deriving conclusions from it, I doubt that your main concern right now should be how vide games affect your life.
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I feel like it greatly reduces my attention span to 1 thing.
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On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it.
Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't.
Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level.
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I don't think you can really make the claim they make you smarter. There is some descion making and tactics so its better than say watching T.V.
I think its probabbly good when your first learning to play a new RTS because your thinking all the time and learning to play the game. Then perhaps its good when you are actively making descions based on what your opponet is doing. But most of playing a RTS becomes practicing the same things over and over untill your doing them perfectly and not really thinking about them any more just muscle memory (like doing a skateboard trick 'body do this trick..... thank you') and once you get pretty good even the descion probabbly starts to become an automatic reaction to seeing what the opponent is doing ( I don't know by the way I'm not very good at any RTS).
Every now and then you see some really clever builds sometimes that make you think 'that guys really thought about this'. Look at the OSL champion he really thinks about how hes gonna play on every map a lot before he goes into it. Why hes so much better in indivdual leagues and not quite as good in pro-league, less time to prepare.
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It test your critical thinking skills and can help someone learn how to better manage time/resources.
but honestly I think most people who play starcraft are just going through motions and recognizing patterns.
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It's not a concern about how they affect my life. I'm not concerned. It was a just a question to solicit discussion, as I am interested.
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It promotes being more efficient and doing things faster for damn sure ^^
Gogo multitasking too.
I notice myself when I cook doing things a lot faster xD
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RTS doesn't necessarily make people smarter.
In general, competitive RTS at a high enough level only attracts self driven smart individuals.
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I learned most of what i know about history from ages of empires 2.
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Well for one instance i know playing too much starcraft 2 is not good for your grades
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I play Broodwar a lot. I just took an online IQ test. My IQ is 150. Is it normal?
If yes then BW didn't affect me at all.
On April 08 2011 09:38 Swede wrote:
Online IQ tests mean nothing, and even your IQ IS 150 it doesn't mean there's a causal relationship between your IQ and time spent on BW.
Yeah. I might be born with it. We took an IQ test at school and I got the highest in my class but they didn't give our IQs, just the rankings. There is no way I can find out my IQ other than online IQ tests. Anyone know a legit online IQ test?
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I don't know if they do, but there certainly seems to be a desire to perpetuate that idea on these forums. These posts come up all the time and I always get the feeling that it's the result of people trying to justify the amount of time they spend on SC2 to themselves.
I'm not saying that SC2 doesn't provide some degree of learning to a player, but it certainly shouldn't be treated as if it's anything other than an added bonus.
I play Broodwar a lot. I just took an online IQ test. My IQ is 150. Is it normal?
If yes then BW didn't affect me at all.
Online IQ tests mean nothing. And even your IQ IS 150 it doesn't mean there's a causal relationship between your IQ and time spent on BW.
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It doesnt improve you intellectually, more on the side of reflex, ability to focus and such.
edit: Unless you're playing some hardcore historical RTS. Well, that increases your knowledge. D:
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Honestly, I think CCGs are probably a bit better at accomplishing the things in the OP than RTS games.
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if applied right then experience at sc can improve your critical thinking skills
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On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level.
Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative.
Any video game is a form of mind aerobics. Any game for that matter (chess, checkers, monopoly) is a form of mind aerobics. Scratch that, basically any mental activity at all is a form of mental aerobics. The thing is, the number of mental faculties potentially used to solve problems is quite extensive. And whatever activity you are doing is 'training/exercising' a small set of those faculties. So yes you are making those faculties 'smarter'.
But don't forget that most activities have a negative effect on some faculty or another. So your question becomes: Do RTS, in terms of mental faculties, improve our mean problem solving powers. Are the gains more than the losses? Social ones for example? Who fuckin knows!!! It's a ridiculous thing to ask let alone measure....
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I think it can help develop keen observation skills, yes, but I wouldn't classify what you gain as simply "smarts".
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You'd definitely have to verify the cause and effect. I'd assume Brood War these days just generally attracts a more intelligent individual than, say, Angry Birds.
That said, I think the incredible multitasking, constant action, and required, quick decision-making probably does help to keep your brain sharp. There was a cracked.com article where they cited a study in which elderly people played either BW or Tetris for a few hours. The ones that played BW showed better multitasking immediately afterwards, so that's cool!
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On April 08 2011 09:33 NicksonReyes wrote:I play Broodwar a lot. I just took an online IQ test. My IQ is 150. Is it normal? If yes then BW didn't affect me at all. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:38 Swede wrote:
Online IQ tests mean nothing, and even your IQ IS 150 it doesn't mean there's a causal relationship between your IQ and time spent on BW. Yeah. I might be born with it. We took an IQ test at school and I got the highest in my class but they didn't give our IQs, just the rankings. There is no way I can find out my IQ other than online IQ tests. Anyone know a legit online IQ test?
LOL. You are not born with an IQ. Maybe a capacity for one, but that's it. And IQ score is NOT a static number at all. A genius 4 year old has a lower IQ than a dumb 20 year OLD. And IQ decays with age as well, most people peeking in 20's. There is no LEGIT IQ test. They are ALL heavily math/logic biased. And as I stated in an earlier post, smartness and IQ, while being corollaries of each other, are not the same thing. Rainman's IQ as with many high functioning autistics are off the charts, but I certainly wouldn't say they are smart...not being able to button your pants precludes that designation
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Ever since I started playing RTSs massively, I've gone down at least 2 points in my grades (out of 7), and am now having severe difficulties concentrating.
You can improve at multitasking, but im my case I just end up "paying attention to tons of stuff, but concentrating on none of them" which absolutely sucks when you want to study.
Nah, it doesn't make you smarter, there are lots of better things for that.
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Depends on how you play the RTS.
Low-level players are quite content just playing vs easy AI, turtling up hard and building an elaborate base before acquiring a victory that was supposed to happen several hours prior. At least that was how I played back in the day...
However, I think higher level, more competitive play can be quite useful for higher-level thinking. Digging into timings and meticulously crafting builds takes a lot of logical thought and theorycrafing. Utilizing game-sense to dynamically adjust your play in the middle of games rewards creativity and intuition.
IMO, I guess it's better to play an RTS as opposed to some other types of games, like FPS games. However, there are plenty of RPGs and puzzle games that can be equally, if not more stimulating to the mind.
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RTS games don't make you smarter. But smarter people will be better at RTS games.
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I don't think RTS makes you smarter, I think its more smarter people play RTS games.
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On April 08 2011 09:53 UpHeaVaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:33 NicksonReyes wrote:I play Broodwar a lot. I just took an online IQ test. My IQ is 150. Is it normal? If yes then BW didn't affect me at all. On April 08 2011 09:38 Swede wrote:
Online IQ tests mean nothing, and even your IQ IS 150 it doesn't mean there's a causal relationship between your IQ and time spent on BW. Yeah. I might be born with it. We took an IQ test at school and I got the highest in my class but they didn't give our IQs, just the rankings. There is no way I can find out my IQ other than online IQ tests. Anyone know a legit online IQ test? LOL. You are not born with an IQ. Maybe a capacity for one, but that's it. And IQ score is NOT a static number at all. A genius 4 year old has a lower IQ than a dumb 20 year OLD. And IQ decays with age as well, most people peeking in 20's. There is no LEGIT IQ test. They are ALL heavily math/logic biased.
uummm.... ok. If you say so. Sorry.
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On April 08 2011 09:56 KevinIX wrote:
RTS games don't make you smarter. But smarter people will be better at RTS games.
On April 08 2011 09:56 DarthXX wrote:
I don't think RTS makes you smarter, I think its more smarter people play RTS games.
Hahaha, thank you for these two successive posts, guys. But yeah, this seems to be a common sentiment.
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that's like asking if basketball makes you more athletic
might keep you in shape, might sharpen you up, make you more disciplined, gain a greater knowledge of sports in general but it won't make you more athletic.
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Theres a university somewhere in america that had a class where the focus of the class was to apply principles used in sc to real life so in some ways yes ^^
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I think if you are smart is certain areas you will be naturally good at RTS games, otherwise no... Don't think RTS games make you smarter.
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i don't know if it makes you smarter, but it does make you more efficient. i can multitask more easily, i can make decisions very quickly, and i find myself managing my time more effectively. i've also become a much faster typist which means that i get work done faster.
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On April 08 2011 09:58 DTK-m2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:56 KevinIX wrote:
RTS games don't make you smarter. But smarter people will be better at RTS games. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:56 DarthXX wrote:
I don't think RTS makes you smarter, I think its more smarter people play RTS games. Hahaha, thank you for these two successive posts, guys. But yeah, this seems to be a common sentiment.
Haha I had opened the thread but there was only 3 responses in it, by the time I actually wrote a response a couple minutes later it was already on second page ><
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They don't make me smarter but I always try to be as efficient as possible for luls and this has only gotten worse since I play starcraft. Lol@morningmultitasking
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All of what you said is common sense. It's not RTS makes you smarter. It's if you are smart and utilize your common sense, you get better at RTS.
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As the OP has pointed out, smart is a relative term, but still I'd have to say that: No, it does not make you smarter, but....
Here's my reasoning: In my opinion, in order for something to make you smarter It has to be presenting you with new information or a new way to understand old information that you didn't understand before.
You could argue that SC does develop a strategical mind for things, especially if you start playing young...but for most people, not enough to make the claim that you are smarter from it. The strategy you are learning is about how to move your game pieces on the board in such a way that you beat your opponent. Mostly what you can "learn" from this game is new ideas for how to move those pieces. Unless you realize that a lot of the strategical thinking that you utilize in the game can be applied elsewhere, then you've learned a good tool for life.
In my opinion, the more successful players in starcraft already had a strong grasp of strategy, learned from a variety other games played before this one. Games do hold some bearing on reality, as proven by the very successful use of game theory on global economics, but anyway...
What starcraft does do for you: exercises your mind. You are not wasting time on starcraft as much as you would be watching television, because you are forced to be responsive/reactive.
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Alot of brilliant points have been brought up. There seems to be a consensus with RTS games improving and exercising what you already have been born or conditioned with through other more legitimate and direct means.
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Well, most things you do make you smarter. It's to what degree that's important XD
I'll copy-paste a reply from another, relevant thread posted earlier today (it had an article in it, so ignore that part XD):
On April 08 2011 06:42 Zeke50100 wrote:
Video games in general are underestimated in their effectiveness when it comes to stimulating mental activity and higher-level thinking processes, with genres like RTSes being thrown in with things like FPSes (not saying FPSes do not require thinking; it's just that too many people believe shooters don't stimulate the brain at all, and believe all other types of games are the same).
It sort of saddens me when people think games in general are mindless activities that don't improve anything for a person, and saddens me even more when people actually have to go through studies in order to show people something that really should be common sense.
Although the biased media nowadays will never really give articles like this the light they really need to change anything. Meh. It's good to know people try ^_^
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What starcraft does do for you: exercises your mind. You are not wasting time on starcraft as much as you would be watching television, because you are forced to be responsive/reactive.
That could be argued either way. Which is better for the mind:
Playing Nexus Wars on SC2 or watching a documentary on something?
Or:
Playing SC2 at a high level on ladder or watching reality TV?
Whether SC2 is beneficial or not really comes down to the way you use it.
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Make you smarter, as in more knowledgeable? No. But, they tax your hand-eye coordination and mental agility. Lots of practice at which can improve your ability to become smarter and solve problems.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 08 2011 08:52 kurse3 wrote:
I have a short, but very open ended question to ask, which will hopefully produce a good discussion. I use the term 'smart' because it is ambiguous, and I want to see how people interpret my question.
Do RTS games make you smarter?
I'm tending to think they do in a variety of ways, however I'm hoping that it doesn't just make you smarter at RTS games, but in general.
Let's use Starcraft 2.
The examples in parentheses are just examples.
- Decision making (Will the decision to attack/back off/work on macro be worth it?)
- Forward thinking (Based on 'x' set of circumstances what do I need to prepare for?)
- Deductive reasoning (Based on the information that I have attained, can I deduce that he will be going for 'x' build?.)
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted 4 Warpgates, I should expect a 4gate push very soon.)
I don't want to add anymore. I would rather you interpret what I asked for yourself.
The points you listed are brain exercises, they stimulate brain activity. They don't make you 'smarter'. 2c
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On April 08 2011 08:57 nttea wrote:Nah, I'm as stupid as ever
same here
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People as far as i know don't get smarter, merely more clever. However, RTS games do make you cleverer IMO.
@ Ryze i think that was UC Berkeley.
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It helps some, as long as you dont play SC2 for hours, and you actually study instead of hardcore gaming. SC2 helps your quickness,reflexes, computer skills, and quick thinking, but if you play too much and dont focus on your academics, it will be bad for you overall.
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On April 08 2011 09:18 CurLy[] wrote:
It promotes being more efficient and doing things faster for damn sure ^^
Gogo multitasking too.
I notice myself when I cook doing things a lot faster xD
Yes!
My scrambled eggs + bacon build is very refined.
I got great spatula micro and multitask on the toast + coffee. hahaha
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On April 08 2011 08:52 kurse3 wrote:
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted 4 Warpgates, I should expect a 4gate push very soon.)
That's not inductive reasoning, that's deductive. You're reasoning from a single fact (4 Warp gates) to another logical fact (4 Warp Gate's = 4 Warp gate push at 6:00) (pedantic philosophy major note)
Though SC2 does certainly teach inductive reasoning. A great example was Zerg on Stepps of War. "The last twenty times I played Zerg on Stepps they said "Oh not this map" and allin'd me - therefor I should scout for an early allin on this map."
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I had a teacher in the 10th grade for computer science or something, he believed computers games made people think differently. Eg with Starcraft we train ourselves to react to situational problems alot better, plan and manage macro and things like that. Which would directly affect how we react to say a maths question, we theoretically are better at analysing the problem and understanding what the steps to take are, instead of just following the steps which we are taught to do. I dont know if this would be considered "smarter" but it would have an effect on results and such.
however RTS is just simply alot more appealing to a smarter person than a game like runescape where it is just mindless repetitive nonsense.
edit: Some grammar.
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Nope. Took a mensa test this year and my IQ went down by 5 compared to 7 years ago. Started playing sc in 2007
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I find the constant multitasking and flicking between control groups makes it hard to focus on one thing for extended periods of time, like when studying.
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RTS games don't make you smarter, but it obviously takes intelligence and a lot of practice to play SC2 at the highest level
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I sure don't feel smarter xD
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Engaging in almost any kind of activity will in itself improve your ability to think in different ways. Playing Starcraft does make you smarter since it helps you develope new skills, however this isn't something that is unique to starcraft.
Working at an assembly line would help you build optimization skills, playing soccer will help you recognize patterns in the play and playing chess would help your ability to think ahead etc etc. All basic, simplified examples but you get the idea. Thinking about something will always make you a smarter person than before you thought about it, it will never make you dumber. Obviously playing Starcraft would teach you more skills than working at a contruction line or other mundane tasks, but discussing whether or not playing starcraft makes you smarter than playing Counter-strike or studying math is really quite pointless IMO since you only ever get back what you put in.
I feel like I've learned a lot of really helpful things from playing Starcraft, but on the other hand many of the skills I've learned from Starcraft other people have probably learned those same exact skills some other way. I'm definitely better than my friends at strategizing and thinking several steps ahead but in other matters they are smarter than me, presumably because they have put more thought into these things than I have
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I've been doing school work a lot better ever since I started. I don't get distracted easily and I just get straight to the point.
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No but it takes intelligence to play
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I made this connection before. Friends that are in higher ranking in games in general turned out pretty well for themselves (good school grade, jobs, etc.)
So maybe, smart people => good at games
I am afraid it is a one way deal, from my experience (more game =/= smarter)
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A lot of former Brood War players turned out to be successful poker players. I wouldn't say RTS games make you smarter. Some people just naturally have the talent to be really good at RTS games. Didn't Koll get like B ranking on Brood War Iccup Server his first season... that's just insane. Some people still can't even get C+ and they've been playing for years. I do think though that the top level Starcraft players are pretty smart though.
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- On every single game, the players who play it think it's what smart people play
- You could post this question on any forum of any game, you'd get the same answers
- You can extend this thinking for any activity, job or hobby that you choose to do, those who practice it, believe it's what smart people pick to do
- It only makes sense, if you didn't think it was a smart thing to do it, you wouldn't be doing it, would you?
- In my personal humble opinion, nothing can make you smarter. You're born with it, that's it, period.
You can teach yourself to be more careful before making decisions, you can teach yourself to pay more attention. Specially, you can teach yourself how to do things so you don't have to learn them again. Which many people confuse, knowledge with intelligence. But your actual intelligence will only decrease after you were born. I am dumber now than what I was 10 years ago. I will be dumber in 10 years. And there's nothing I can do to change that.
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I won't say that I gain IQ points playing SC2, but I would say that my decision making has become snappier and and am able to do more things at once (kind of like multitasking).
RTS offer you to practice skills unique to the genre. FPS trains hand-eye/reaction etc... and so on
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On April 08 2011 14:31 moltenlead wrote:
I won't say that I gain IQ points playing SC2, but I would say that my decision making has become snappier and and am able to do more things at once (kind of like multitasking).
RTS offer you to practice skills unique to the genre. FPS trains hand-eye/reaction etc... and so on
Counterstrike is just as much a mind game as it is an aim game. Yeah you need aim (execution), but in the end the champions are the ones with superior strategies (mind games).
As per the main topic. RTS makes you better at RTS... and that's about as far as I would go with that.
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nope srry RTS's only attract people who think they are smart. smart people are all out doing more important things.
in all seriousness i think the decisions that we make in SC2 are all comparitivly simple and 1 demesional, while our real life decisions have an uncountable amout of angles and outcomes. this being said i do think it makes you smarter, but not smarter then if you did any other mentally stimulating activity as avadly as SC2. SC dose atttract smarter people tho.
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according to your points even baseball makes you smarter. The problem is a lot of knowledge (one of the key points of being smart) you learn for the game, like BO's, what you can expect when you scout x at time t etc, is very specific and only applies to the game. I guess you do hone some skills that can be useful elsewhere, but you shouldn't put too much weight on that.
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Smarter than what? There are a lot of better things i could be doing with my time. I don't think spending as much time as i do on sc is a smart thing so probably not.
Does playing basketball make you smarter? i guess if you can relate something to it then sure.
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It's helped improve my poker game. Helped me be more critical during my actions.
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Dudes, it's extremely, terribly bad to think that you're born with a certain level of intelligence. This mindset will make you plateau pretty quick. I'll make a separate thread about the Entity and Incremental intelligence theories, and how they affect people. I was raised with the wrong theory, and ever since I read about this, I've made insane improvements in my life.
And to the OP:
I've noticed SC2 definitely helped me prioritize my investments better, utilize my time more efficiently, and understand the fact that having a specific goal helps elucidate the road that'll get me there.
But, I think everyone's "smart". I believe it's a very relative term. We are what we do.
Labeling someone as "smart" at something is just saying they've spent more time working at it than you.
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Of course it makes you smarter. But only if you're smart enough to make it happen in the first place.
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I can attest that playing SC2 not only makes you smarter, you can also apply what you've learned in-game to your everyday life.
Once i was at work, and i wanted to skip and go out for a while but my boss was still in the office, Since i've played SC2, I simply conjured a hallucination of myself sitting at my desk looking busy, and my boss didn't even suspect anything.
PS: Btw this is probably just a coincidence, but my boss's name is Greg.
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playing too much starcraft makes my brain fuzzy and tired, similar to how i feel if i solve simple algebra problems for 2-3 hours straight
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On April 08 2011 09:11 TALegion wrote:
If you have trouble following basic human logic and deriving conclusions from it, I doubt that your main concern right now should be how vide games affect your life.
And yet the strategy forums are so very, very active.
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On April 08 2011 08:57 nttea wrote:Nah, I'm as stupid as ever
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I haven't met a stupid competitive Starcraft 2 player
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Compared to say, watching Television, it would definitely make a kid smarter imo.
But most of us are much older than that and at an age where improving your IQ is pretty much impossible. Now we can just absorb information and SC won't help you do that.
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On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative.
Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one.
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On April 08 2011 16:11 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative. Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one.
Speed is definitely a component. If two people took the same maths test and were told to aim to get all answers correct in the smallest possible time, then the person who completes it faster is smarter (perhaps not overall, but in that instance). Or would you tell me they're both equally intelligent?
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I'm sure it helps keep your mind exercising. Pretty much how chess can help keep somebody sharp... imo. maybe not smarter..but efficient perhaps?
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On April 08 2011 16:19 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 16:11 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative. Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one. Speed is definitely a component. If two people took the same maths test and were told to aim to get all answers correct in the smallest possible time, then the person who completes it faster is smarter (perhaps not overall, but in that instance). Or would you tell me they're both equally intelligent?
Speed is a component in a standard WAIS IQ test, and counts towards IQ. Basically you need to copy information as fast as possible for 2 minutes, no problem solving included. WAIS tests are more comprehensive than the matrices usually seen online, but basically you will learn the answers the first time so it's not suitable for mensa etc.
Anyway, IQ is definitely relative but it is also a good predictor for performance, as well as a good practical tool used to evaluate for example brain damage and mental retardation. If a topic is about becoming smarter I think IQ is the best indicator we have for that variable even though it's abstract and relative.
Higher IQ with starcraft? I was thinking about it when I was reading up on IQ, but I kind of doubt it. Any activity that's a challenge would basically be a good thing not just for IQ but for the brain as a whole. But trying to rank order activities seem really hard apart from saying that exposing oneself to new concepts and challenging activities would be better than being inactive all day long, at least in moderation and with rest included. And I think starcraft can be pretty challenging.
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i think starcraft is more difficult to play than chess. I know this is a hard statement, but besides the strategy aspect there are also mechanics and of course the speed important to play sc at a higher level than maybe gold.
if my parents would get that, they would be so proud if i would practice a more intelligent game than chess for such a long time lol
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It doesn't make you smarter but it definitely changes the way you think about problems, issues and situations. Has changed mine for sure.
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short answer: yes they do
long one: Well I dont know everything about this but I know that broccoli makes you pretty awesome in games. Ye thank you Athene
no really bad joke sorry about that.
Ok seriously now:
we use for decision making process our front part of the brain and it is well known that games are excellent way how to improve it (mainly RTS. But I think that QL/CS or WoW are great too)
I saw a video about this on youtube where they scanned Moons, Skies and Lyns brain and then some casual players brain and it was so cool to see that Pro gamers are using completely different parts of the brain.
Also they took semen from Sky or Moon and saved it for some superhuman
+ Show Spoiler +IM NOT TROLLING THE LAST PART, its on youtube but i cant find it now
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Well i dont really know what you mean by "smarter". If you mean IQ then probably no.
As far as i'm concerned, playing starcraft makes you good at starcraft. (might also make you faster at typing and such), but i dont believe it improves your multitasking or problem solving.
The reason that a lot of people might think that playing starcraft makes you smarter is because a lot of people who play starcraft are just smart
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On April 08 2011 08:52 kurse3 wrote:
I have a short, but very open ended question to ask, which will hopefully produce a good discussion. I use the term 'smart' because it is ambiguous, and I want to see how people interpret my question.
Do RTS games make you smarter?
I'm tending to think they do in a variety of ways, however I'm hoping that it doesn't just make you smarter at RTS games, but in general.
Let's use Starcraft 2.
The examples in parentheses are just examples.
- Decision making (Will the decision to attack/back off/work on macro be worth it?)
- Forward thinking (Based on 'x' set of circumstances what do I need to prepare for?)
- Deductive reasoning (Based on the information that I have attained, can I deduce that he will be going for 'x' build?.)
- Inductive reasoning (I've just scouted 4 Warpgates, I should expect a 4gate push very soon.)
I don't want to add anymore. I would rather you interpret what I asked for yourself.
I go to my neighbor's house. See 3 warpgates. Wait a second.....
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On April 08 2011 16:19 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 16:11 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative. Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one. Speed is definitely a component. If two people took the same maths test and were told to aim to get all answers correct in the smallest possible time, then the person who completes it faster is smarter (perhaps not overall, but in that instance). Or would you tell me they're both equally intelligent?
I think the word "smarter" doesn't really mean anything. Does it just mean "better"?
In that instance the faster person is better at doing math in short periods of time. They are smarter at doing math in short periods of time. In that instance the winner may not even be better at math overall, just at doing math quickly.
I would say no conclusions about their intelligence can be made from that situation, except that they are better at doing those particular math problems more quickly than the other person.
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On April 09 2011 05:25 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 16:19 Swede wrote:On April 08 2011 16:11 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative. Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one. Speed is definitely a component. If two people took the same maths test and were told to aim to get all answers correct in the smallest possible time, then the person who completes it faster is smarter (perhaps not overall, but in that instance). Or would you tell me they're both equally intelligent? I think the word "smarter" doesn't really mean anything. Does it just mean "better"? In that instance the faster person is better at doing math in short periods of time. They are smarter at doing math in short periods of time. In that instance the winner may not even be better at math overall, just at doing math quickly. I would say no conclusions about their intelligence can be made from that situation, except that they are better at doing those particular math problems more quickly than the other person.
Hence "(perhaps not overall, but in that instance)".
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imho its rather that rts games appeal to the smarter guys.... you rarely see the typical fps machos play an rts, while the typical nerd or smart guy is quite overrepresented among the tl user base.
i dont think playing sc makes you significantly smarter. maybe some 2-4 IQ points at most...
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Starcraft has taught me how to focus on one thing while still able to multi task.
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On April 09 2011 09:18 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 05:25 Rotodyne wrote:On April 08 2011 16:19 Swede wrote:On April 08 2011 16:11 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:49 UpHeaVaL wrote:On April 08 2011 09:15 HellRoxYa wrote:On April 08 2011 09:00 ryanAnger wrote:
Yes, mostly because I believe it trains your brain to perform tasks and react faster. Intelligence to me is similar in a way to how we compare computers. Most modern computers have the same basic capabilities and the thing that makes some computers better than others is the speed in which they perform and process tasks.
It's fairly obvious that RTS games improve our "processing speed" in that as we get better at them, we are more capable of quickly determining what we need to do, how, and when to do it. Being smart is being able to solve problems, not the time it takes you to do so. So your analogy doesn't hold up very well. Unlike computers which operate on the same basic principles some people's brains are actually able to solve problems that you and I can't. Anyway, computergames in general have been shown to train reflexes. It obviously doesn't make you smarter, though. It might help you process information faster in general, and it definently trains your multitaskingability if you're playing the game at a serious level. Smartness is a relative term. We determine smartness by comparing with not so smart. Being smart is being able to SOLVE PROBLEMS QUICKLY. Or more specifically, quicker than the average population. A smart dog is one that can solve 3d obstruction puzzles...only because most dogs can't. Just because Jim down the street can solve them too, doesn't mean we consider him to be smart. Again, it's relative. Yes, IQ (problemsolving) is relative, but it's not about the speed with which you solve problems but rather the ability to do so. Speed is only a secondary indicator of being smart, and a non important one. Speed is definitely a component. If two people took the same maths test and were told to aim to get all answers correct in the smallest possible time, then the person who completes it faster is smarter (perhaps not overall, but in that instance). Or would you tell me they're both equally intelligent? I think the word "smarter" doesn't really mean anything. Does it just mean "better"? In that instance the faster person is better at doing math in short periods of time. They are smarter at doing math in short periods of time. In that instance the winner may not even be better at math overall, just at doing math quickly. I would say no conclusions about their intelligence can be made from that situation, except that they are better at doing those particular math problems more quickly than the other person. Hence "(perhaps not overall, but in that instance)".
I really was asking the definition of "smarter", but I just realized it's defined in the dictionary : D
a. Characterized by sharp quick thought
perfectly fits your situation so my post was useless : [
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No.
If you're smart you can get better at RTS, it doesn't work the other way around.
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I've noticed that after playing alot of sc2 I some how think better and faster when studying, and also when I play other games after playing a lot of sc2, I play those games way better than usual. And when I watch TV shows or movies it's the complete opposite, I suck at everything.
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No one genre of gaming is going to "make you smarter". I do feel though that there is a value in learning what it means to be competitive and what it means to try to find solutions to problems and then testing your solutions against live thinking people who are also trying to find the same solutions. This is not exclusive to RTS games.
RTS games are not going to attract smarter people than FPS games, both games types are just going to attract the kind of person that wants to overcome tough challenges. Smart people will be attracted to competitive environments because it's the only way to be challenged and grow whether that be through the medium of physical sports, video games or intellectual pursuits. I think I even struggle with the idea of one person just being born smarter than another and feel that there is more to be gained with hard work over natural talent but I think there is a lot of examples of both contributing to success in a competition.
I think one thing that is abundantly clear is that any competitive medium builds confidence, whether that is justified or not. People who are good at their chosen hobby or profession certainly think that whatever they have chosen to pursue ultimately makes them a better person or gives rise to the thinking that whatever it is they do is a more noble pursuit over the other options out there.
In actuality being part of a collaborative community of passionate people regardless of the chosen method of spending their free time is ultimately what taught them the most about themselves and their fellow human beings. It's what allows an individual to gain a glimpse of oneself at the pinnacle of their potential.
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I have to say Yes. Playing RTS games makes you smarter than if you played Facebook games instead
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On April 09 2011 04:28 IrT4nkz wrote:
It doesn't make you smarter but it definitely changes the way you think about problems, issues and situations. Has changed mine for sure.
Second this
Smarter? probably not
But it sure helps me develop crisis management skillz (aka. dont freak out and spam szzzzzzzzz when terran drops your main)
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Doesn't make you smarter in the "recall x fact at y time with z consistency", but it does promote high brain activity and in that sense make you smarter. As other posters said it also makes you more comfortable with snap decisions and helps immensely later in life with pressure. It most certainly makes you smarter. but not in the sense I labeled above.
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Decision Making and Assumptions. Yes.
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yeah, but i think smart in the way of "intelligence" isnt learnable at all^^
but i really think that its a better hobby for your "smartness" than sitting in front of your tv all day and drinking beer :D
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I think people just tend to say that so they have an exuse for playing so much.
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Lol ... People can be so funny.
This is how it works:
Playing LOTS of Starcraft makes you
1. 1000% better at playing Starcraft
2. 0.001% better at the auxiliary skills you need to play Starcraft.
It's called specificity training. You only get better at something when you do it specifically. You think playing starcraft will help you if you're in charge of negotiating a big corporate merger? Maybe by about 0.00001%... If that.
True story bro.
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Well, if you mean getting smarter as in getting better grades, then no obviously. But if you mean getting smarter as in more intelligence, still no. You can always do an iq test before and after playing considerable amounts of starcraft 2 to see any notable changes. That being said, theres not much to discuss.
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On April 08 2011 12:01 VapouR. wrote:
I find the constant multitasking and flicking between control groups makes it hard to focus on one thing for extended periods of time, like when studying.
Same for me.. I suck at studying now. I can pay attention to multiple patients at the ER though lol. My ability to focus has definitely suffered from playing too much starcraft.
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dont really make u smart i think. ofcourse u need to make decisions (talking about high master 1v1) at a fast pace and be able to substain focus for a long time, and forcing urself to divide that focus when needed, which can be argued would enhance some mental skills.
and as a lot of ppl have said, ull probably do a lot better at sc2 if ur smart strategicly/very good at forward thinking or critical thinking, but playing sc2 wont give u those skills, real life will^^
that said, i difinitely feel like i am more critical thinkingly now than before i started to play sc2 competitively.
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Well, I don't know about starcraft, but Rise of Nations can help stave off dementia in people over 60. I can't find a link to the actual scientific article, but here's the telegraph's article reporting the results.
The Telegraph Article
I'd imagine that starcraft uses several of the same higher brain functions. "Executive Control Functions" seem to be stimulated in the elderly. These findings probably don't actually apply to people in their teens-30s, though. There usually hasn't been any kind of deterioration in brain function by the age of the average TLer, I'd imagine, so the benefit any of us would gain from these games as far as straight up "intelligence" would probably be minimal at best.
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I'm stupid in some ways, but good at RTS. I don't think it does make you smarter.
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Short answer: no
Long answer: No..they really don't.
+ Show Spoiler +More seriously, it makes you stupid. You are continuously practising the same actions and thought processes over and over that have no merit in real life. You will not win in debates, you will not become a great mathematician, you will not become president of the united states of america. You will simply become an above average gamer. There is no merits to playing rts games as opposed to any other game. They all make you do mind numbing repetitive tasks that have no physical or intellectual merit. You would gain more from your time if you simply sat down and read a good book.
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I don't think it's playing RTS that makes you 'smart', but rather smart people play RTS? It's the same for Basketball and tall people. Tall people are good at basketball so they tend to play it more. Doesn't mean playing basketball makes you taller.
That being said, however, I find myself typing faster, learning and using shortcut commands for all the various software I need for getting work done, multitasking and all round speed-driven about most things I do about my day. I guess you could say that makes me 'smarter', but 'more efficient' seems to sound more accurate in this sense.
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The way I see it is the community you are involved with make you "smarter." SC wont make you smarter, but the smart people will make you smarter.
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i duno about making you smarter but playing sc2 makes me feel stupid
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EPT
