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It saddens me to see people not understand that they actually got it wrong.
The order of the problem:
First parenthesis, thus you get 48/2*12
Next:
Division and multiplication are on the same Order of Operations. Any 8th grader can tell you that.
Thus, you MUST do 48/2 since it comes first... you MUST. If you wish that the 2*12 come first, you must group them into their own so you'd have 48/(2*12).
Finally:
Since all you have left is 24*12, the obvious answer is 288.
I am currently a 12th grader enrolled in AP Calculus AB and am plan on majoring in Computer Science so Math is kind of my strong point.
I am also a very logical person (which helps make me better at Math), and when I see people laugh at those who guessed the right answer, I become very upset.
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On April 09 2011 11:35 -{Cake}- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:33 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 11:30 Sluggy wrote:On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills. I voted 288 because the convention I have always used is left associative when the operators have the same precedence. However, it is clear there are people that have never been exposed to this convention. The problem is much more deeply rooted in philosophy than you think. Even if there were an international standard, the problem would have to state: 'use the international standard to resolve ambiguities' to allow for any notion of correctness. Your assumption that the most popular convention is the only acceptable way to evaluate an expression is fundamentally wrong. You can not argue for correctness based on a convention, but that is exactly what you are doing. Your statements about people having lesser math skills if they don't use that convention (due to never being introduced to it) is ironic. What the hell does this have to do with conventions? There is one correct answer to this, if your "university" teaches a short cut or some other "convention" that really doesn't matter. There is one correct answer, 288. If you put 2, you are wrong. HOW is this 90 pages haha. So anything said other languages is wrong because it's not the one you speak?
What does this have to do with languages? There are probably 1 percent of people on teamliquid with a Master Degree and above in a field that uses mathematics (sorry business degrees, thats not real mathematics). And if you ask ANY of them they will without a doubt tell you, 100 percent, yes the answer is 288. Just because you learned PEMDAS in 4th grade and don't "really" understand how Math works, doesn't mean your ignorance gives you the right to argue this. The answer is 288, give it up. There is no ambiguity, it's written to trick someone who's doesn't truly understand the order of operations.
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On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills.
Have you ever written or read a proof? Seeing some of the drivel people manage to come up with during midterms would quickly change your mind about whether or not math can be phrased poorly.
People has this misperception that mathematicians dish out pure, logical statements as they work to answer problems while the reality is far more visual and messy. In fact many of the mathematicians* I've met have noted that the more real mathematics they do the more incapable they become at doing basic arithmetic.
That you would equate solving the given problem to someone having "math skills" is as humorous as it is invalid.
*I'm not really sure what the definition of mathematician we're using here. That said my anecdotes apply to undergrads, grads, and professors alike so presumably some subset of my experience fit.
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For engineering, math and CS disciplines in the U.S (or at least schools I've been to). we use PEMDAS - it's more than just a tool for teaching elementary kids. It's a ruleset so you know how to look at things without feeling it is ambiguous. Sure the OP could have used to clear it up with parenthesis but even without them the expression is valid if you are following the established rule set that just about everyone uses here. Multiplicative juxtaposition is not an established convention, PEMDAS and all the other standards that are synonymous with it are.
You can try Google, WolframAlpha, and other online calcs and get the same answer: 288. Because they are all using a convention. That is the entire point of having a convention so we don't end up with answers like "2". You can choose not to follow it if you please but don't just assume everyone else is calling you wrong just to do so.
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If I interpret 11 as 1*1 does that make me right or wrong? This is why we have conventions, so that mathematics isn't up to interpretation. And the convention is pretty clear...
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Why is there 92 pages in a simple thread like this!? It boggles me mind.
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On April 09 2011 11:39 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:35 -{Cake}- wrote:On April 09 2011 11:33 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 11:30 Sluggy wrote:On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills. I voted 288 because the convention I have always used is left associative when the operators have the same precedence. However, it is clear there are people that have never been exposed to this convention. The problem is much more deeply rooted in philosophy than you think. Even if there were an international standard, the problem would have to state: 'use the international standard to resolve ambiguities' to allow for any notion of correctness. Your assumption that the most popular convention is the only acceptable way to evaluate an expression is fundamentally wrong. You can not argue for correctness based on a convention, but that is exactly what you are doing. Your statements about people having lesser math skills if they don't use that convention (due to never being introduced to it) is ironic. What the hell does this have to do with conventions? There is one correct answer to this, if your "university" teaches a short cut or some other "convention" that really doesn't matter. There is one correct answer, 288. If you put 2, you are wrong. HOW is this 90 pages haha. So anything said other languages is wrong because it's not the one you speak? What does this have to do with languages? There are probably 1 percent of people on teamliquid with a Master Degree and above in a field that uses mathematics (sorry business degrees, thats not real mathematics). And if you ask ANY of them they will without a doubt tell you, 100 percent, yes the answer is 288. Just because you learned PEMDAS in 4th grade and don't "really" understand how Math works, doesn't mean your ignorance gives you the right to argue this. The answer is 288, give it up. There is no ambiguity, it's written to trick someone who's doesn't truly understand the order of operations.
Wow, you're so incredibly stubborn. I know plenty of people with the qualifications you mention and they won't say that at all. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. But you're absolutely wrong if you think that's the general opinion.
By the way, I've googled this question and it's amazing how many forums have a similar thread that seems to degenerate into the same "religious" debate.
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You can try Google, WolframAlpha, and other online calcs and get the same answer: 288. Because they are all using a convention. That is the entire point of having a convention so we don't end up with answers like "2". You can choose not to follow it if you please but don't just assume everyone else is calling you wrong just to do so.
Please read the thread before posting. It has been shown many, many times that not all calculators give the same answer.
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On April 09 2011 11:24 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:19 jinorazi wrote:On April 09 2011 10:18 L3gendary wrote:
I'm quite saddened 44% of people actually think it's 2. to say there is no ambiguity(or confusion) is wrong, since there obviously is, 90+ page thread is proof itself. Or 90 pages filled with people who don't know Math and others trying to explain their errors (and others mocking those who picked 2).
the polls are proof too unless 50%+ of the people are trolls, which i doubt...as an optimist 
i dont think the 24% of the people who's took university level math related subjects are THAT bad at math. even stories of friends(from posters) who are math wiz said that some answered 2, this alone is also proof that this equation is...not optimal.
give this to a actual 5th grader and he'll 288 no problem, give this to a university student and to many, 2 will come first to mind.
edit: i understand most of the posts are just cycles of the same stuff over and over.
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On April 09 2011 11:43 Kamais_Ookin wrote:
Why is there 92 pages in a simple thread like this!? It boggles me mind.
I was just about to type the same exact thing. People are repeating the same two arguments through 92 pages... We get it, either you think the problem is a matter of following a strict guideline, or you think the problem is subject to interpretation. We don't need to repeat the same arguments indefinitely.
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On April 09 2011 11:00 NukeTheBunnys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills. Its written to throw off people with lesser math skills, and lazy people with good math skills. I posed this question to one of my friends who is normally quite good at math, and he just snap answered 2, when i told him he was wrong he started arguing with me until he said OHHH... It just goes to prove that you really need to pay attention when doing math.
Yea, lazy people will almost assuredly get this wrong. Anyone with a math background and some logic will only come to 288. I think it's time to stop posting and let people "defend" why they would have gotten this wrong on an exam.
edit: I guess there have to be people who don't understand Math, so people in the field of Mathematics still have a job. So, I guess I should thank people who picked 2.
HIGH FIVE to you o/\o
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On April 09 2011 11:39 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:35 -{Cake}- wrote:On April 09 2011 11:33 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 11:30 Sluggy wrote:On April 09 2011 10:53 Pufftrees wrote:On April 09 2011 10:07 gerundium wrote:On April 09 2011 10:04 FindMeInKenya wrote:
Again, read that long post on page 62, which basically explains why there's no priorities for real numbers. Maybe your Uni and work has some rules for the sake of simplification, but for a theoretical mathematician, 288 is the only agreeable answer. how about no. A mathematician would see that the question is phrased poorly and whoever did it has failed to make his intentions clear, therefor arguing any side is pointless. This "mathematician" you speak of is actually an English major who thinks he's good at Math or something? You can't phrase math poorly, there is one way to interpret this correctly, every other way is wrong. 2 is wrong, if you voted for 2 (all 800+ of you), you do not understand basic mathematical conventions... even though it's obviously written to throw off people with lesser Math skills. I voted 288 because the convention I have always used is left associative when the operators have the same precedence. However, it is clear there are people that have never been exposed to this convention. The problem is much more deeply rooted in philosophy than you think. Even if there were an international standard, the problem would have to state: 'use the international standard to resolve ambiguities' to allow for any notion of correctness. Your assumption that the most popular convention is the only acceptable way to evaluate an expression is fundamentally wrong. You can not argue for correctness based on a convention, but that is exactly what you are doing. Your statements about people having lesser math skills if they don't use that convention (due to never being introduced to it) is ironic. What the hell does this have to do with conventions? There is one correct answer to this, if your "university" teaches a short cut or some other "convention" that really doesn't matter. There is one correct answer, 288. If you put 2, you are wrong. HOW is this 90 pages haha. So anything said other languages is wrong because it's not the one you speak? What does this have to do with languages? There are probably 1 percent of people on teamliquid with a Master Degree and above in a field that uses mathematics (sorry business degrees, thats not real mathematics). And if you ask ANY of them they will without a doubt tell you, 100 percent, yes the answer is 288. Just because you learned PEMDAS in 4th grade and don't "really" understand how Math works, doesn't mean your ignorance gives you the right to argue this. The answer is 288, give it up. There is no ambiguity, it's written to trick someone who's doesn't truly understand the order of operations.
The fact that you even ask that question proves you don't understand what you are saying. From what I've seen, people with high math degrees mostly contend that both 2 and 288 can be correct
Order of operations is a childish tool so that people who do not understand a expression can still compute a solution under one convention, it is blind rule following, and not math
As for attacking my personal knowledge, I am an upper level engineering undergraduate at one of the top schools in the country, I doubt you can say as much
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On April 09 2011 10:52 fishball232 wrote:
calculate this
1+1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16.....
in binary that'd be 1.1111... which approaches 10 (2 in decimal)
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And it continues to come full circle.. Pufftrees, stop trolling. As ive said before -
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57021.html actually sums it up quite well.
I think this is far preferable to making detailed rules that are
likely to trick people. Sometimes one rule seems natural, and
sometimes another, so people will forget any rule we choose to teach
in this area. I've heard from too many students whose texts do "give
an example that really puts this rule to the test," but do so by
having them evaluate an expression like:
6/2(3)
that is too ambiguous for any reasonable mathematician ever to write.
And no matter what the rule, we would still constantly see students
write things like "1/2x" meaning half of x, so we'd still have to make
reasonable guesses rather than stick to the rules.
Can we finally at least agree the equation is ambiguous? Of course not.
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On April 09 2011 11:44 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 11:27 MaRiNe23 wrote:
I didn't read the thread and I was also scared to post this but I'm pretty sure that "1/2x" question reads as (1/2)x. Mainly nervous cuz so many people voted 1/(2x). What's the correct answer? If a formula stands on its own line on a page and therefore space is of no concern, a mathematician would write something like this in his publication: ![[image loading]](http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?$$\frac{1}{2x}$$) The mathematician would then use something like ![[image loading]](http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?$$1/2x$$) inside his text paragraphs to save vertical space and would mean 1/(2*x), though it would probably be written as ![[image loading]](http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?$$(2x)^{-1}$$) to be clear. Stuff with "/" is generally avoided. Programmers and elementary school kids write stuff like this: "1 / 2 * x" and thus it is clear that it means "(1 / 2) * x". In summary: the OP is a prick.
well according to this mathematician, they would never write 1/2x.
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.typing.math.html
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/54341.html
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On April 09 2011 11:44 mike1290 wrote:Show nested quote +You can try Google, WolframAlpha, and other online calcs and get the same answer: 288. Because they are all using a convention. That is the entire point of having a convention so we don't end up with answers like "2". You can choose not to follow it if you please but don't just assume everyone else is calling you wrong just to do so. Please read the thread before posting. It has been shown many, many times that not all calculators give the same answer.
Old calculators like the TI series that don't use OOP because they don't parse correctly will give you 2. Modern calculators or any program using any recent programming language will give you 288. It's been shown that some calculators give a different answer - that doesn't mean they are correct.
This isn't a religious argument or philosophical. It's more so about whether you follow the convention or not.
On April 09 2011 11:48 dp wrote:And it continues to come full circle.. Pufftrees, stop trolling. As ive said before - http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57021.html actually sums it up quite well. Show nested quote +I think this is far preferable to making detailed rules that are
likely to trick people. Sometimes one rule seems natural, and
sometimes another, so people will forget any rule we choose to teach
in this area. I've heard from too many students whose texts do "give
an example that really puts this rule to the test," but do so by
having them evaluate an expression like:
6/2(3)
that is too ambiguous for any reasonable mathematician ever to write.
And no matter what the rule, we would still constantly see students
write things like "1/2x" meaning half of x, so we'd still have to make
reasonable guesses rather than stick to the rules.
Can we finally at least agree the equation is ambiguous? Of course not.
That isn't ambiguous. It's 6/2(3) = 3*3 = 9.
The problem here (and yes I read that paper hours ago) is that people keep trying to compare Variables and Constants when they behave differently. a/bc is not the same as 6/2(3) because the nature of variables tells you you have no idea what a,b, or c can be. Hence you are better of using parenthesis to make your intent clear because otherwise you do not know. However for the case of constants it is very clear - just use OoO.
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On April 09 2011 11:43 Ace wrote:
For engineering, math and CS disciplines in the U.S (or at least schools I've been to). we use PEMDAS - it's more than just a tool for teaching elementary kids. It's a ruleset so you know how to look at things without feeling it is ambiguous. Sure the OP could have used to clear it up with parenthesis but even without them the expression is valid if you are following the established rule set that just about everyone uses here. Multiplicative juxtaposition is not an established convention, PEMDAS and all the other standards that are synonymous with it are.
It is not an established convention because you say so? Because you cite a calculator program? What about the AMS references previously given?
You can try Google, WolframAlpha, and other online calcs and get the same answer: 288. Because they are all using a convention. That is the entire point of having a convention so we don't end up with answers like "2". You can choose not to follow it if you please but don't just assume everyone else is calling you wrong just to do so.
Some people may think it's wrong because they've not been exposed to the alternatives. If you know about the other conventions but choose to ignore them, more power to you. Although in that case, I wouldn't call other people's opinion "wrong" but "different".
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since i'm very bad at math in general, I have to go really slowly to figure out the question, you know, go through my BODMAS, go through those steps, and then get the answer. But it's 288 anyway, so it's all good.
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it's awesome when simple things get this much popularity
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EPT
