So in Ro16 of the GSL World Championship MarineKing made a statement saying Dokudo Island belongs to Korea. Now the island is a disputed territory between Japan and Korea, however it has been and is currently under Korean administration. Recently the Japanese put in the textbook that the island belongs to Japan. MarineKing pulled a sign saying Dakudo is Korean(not direct quote). People seem to disagree whatever or not political statements have place in e-sports, in fact the discussion got a little heated, however it wasn't in the right place (LR threads aren't about that and shouldn't be used as such).
So what is your opinion on the matter?
Poll: Do political messages have place in e-Sport?
No (595)
60%
I don't care (233)
24%
Yes (160)
16%
988 total votes
Your vote: Do political messages have place in e-Sport?
There should never in any sport, e-sports or otherwise be any political messages, they do not belong there and any competitor cought showing political messages should be fined or punished accordingly.
Sure, that players able to express their own opinion might sounds like a good idea.
However if you look from the point of view of sports and esports, political messages not only stir up unnecessary controversy, it take the focus away from the event itself. By permiting and supporting poltical message in the event will just result massive arugments. It will ruin viewerships as some people simply don't want to see it.
If you want to promote sportsmanship, you want to make the enviroument comfortable for everyone.
So I think they should keep it in their personal blog, tweet whatever and not in the event itself.
All it accomplishes is the polarization of your audience which is counterproductive in a competitive atmosphere which is purely for entertainment to begin with. /thread
There shouldn't be room for politics in e-sports, but that doesn't mean that competitors shouldn't be able to bring up politics. American sports players bring up religion in interviews all the time, cross themselves on camera, etc., which is kind of similar.
Edit: to elaborate a little bit, it's the responsibility of the tournament organizers to think of the audience. Since the audience is there for entertainment and not politics, there should be no explicit political purpose to an e-sports event. (As others have said, sports events are used for political purposes all the time... I just don't want to see it happen to starcraft). The players are there to entertain their fans, but just as importantly to give expression to their own skills and ideas. So I think it is reasonable that they be allowed to express their own ideas (within reason). If they want to flash a political message, it should be up to them. Giving someone time to make a long political speech after a match would be going too far.
Keep that stuff to your own personal webpages/blogs/twitter whatever source you have for personal use. Bringing it up in the middle of your job is just classless and shouldn't happen. Then again cultural differences and whatnot, I don't know how things are over there so maybe it's normal for them to do such in which case who am I to tell them otherwise.
MKP is entitled to his opinion, but it's rather counterproductive for him to make an anti-Japan statement in a tournament that's trying to raise donations for the Japan relief fund (although MKP may not be aware of that). People may bring up Son Gi Jeong or the 1968 Olympics black power salute, but those people actually suffered from imperial tyranny and racism. MKP is a 17 year old kid who likely has never been to or even seen the Dokudo islands. Furthermore, he's just a progamer. What exactly is he trying to accomplish? When hollywood stars make political statements, they (some) back it up by making monetary donations to organizations they support or acting as ambassadors. What did MKP accomplish? He got a bunch of nerds like me on TL who will have 0 influence on Korea-Japan relations talking about it. Congratulations.
On March 31 2011 20:03 red4ce wrote: MKP is entitled to his opinion, but it's rather counterproductive for him to make an anti-Japan statement in a tournament that's trying to raise donations for the Japan relief fund (although MKP may not be aware of that).
I think that may be part of the point; he knows that they are raising donations, and he wants to say, hey, I don't think we should be regarding Japan as neighbours. I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but it is not exactly uncommon in the countries that fought with Japan in WWII. Shortly after the quake, someone collected a page of facebook comments that Americans had made, saying stuff like "It's payback for Pearl Harbor". An ugly sentiment, but if you don't allow people to talk about politics, you never get a chance to argue against it either.
I'm split down the middle. I mean, they can do whatever they want. Think of it as propaganda, Superbowl Commercial style (propaganda carries a negative connotation, but America has it everywhere as well. Don't think of it as Dictatorship-Style, "OBEY!!!" propaganda. Think of it more of a, "Wuddup, America? We're awesome."). But why would you want to? Because:
On March 31 2011 19:53 scatmango2 wrote: All it accomplishes is the polarization of your audience which is counterproductive in a competitive atmosphere which is purely for entertainment to begin with. /thread
On March 31 2011 20:03 red4ce wrote: MKP is entitled to his opinion, but it's rather counterproductive for him to make an anti-Japan statement in a tournament that's trying to raise donations for the Japan relief fund (although MKP may not be aware of that).
I think that may be part of the point; he knows that they are raising donations, and he wants to say, hey, I don't think we should be regarding Japan as neighbours. I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but it is not exactly uncommon in the countries that fought with Japan in WWII. Shortly after the quake, someone collected a page of facebook comments that Americans had made, saying stuff like "It's payback for Pearl Harbor". An ugly sentiment, but if you don't allow people to talk about politics, you never get a chance to argue against it either.
Interesting point, I hadn't thought of it that way. I really hope MKP isn't that kind of person.
On March 31 2011 20:03 red4ce wrote: MKP is entitled to his opinion, but it's rather counterproductive for him to make an anti-Japan statement in a tournament that's trying to raise donations for the Japan relief fund (although MKP may not be aware of that).
I think that may be part of the point; he knows that they are raising donations, and he wants to say, hey, I don't think we should be regarding Japan as neighbours. I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but it is not exactly uncommon in the countries that fought with Japan in WWII. Shortly after the quake, someone collected a page of facebook comments that Americans had made, saying stuff like "It's payback for Pearl Harbor". An ugly sentiment, but if you don't allow people to talk about politics, you never get a chance to argue against it either.
Interesting point, I hadn't thought of it that way. I really hope MKP isn't that kind of person.
He isn't, as part of a country that is having territorial disputes myself, I can tell you that he is probably pissed about the political decision of the J. prime minister and doesn't have anything against Japanese or the initiative he is taking part in. Probably emotions running high.
Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
Many things take place in the political arena which shouldnt take place there (bribery, fraud, lies), therefore it would be naive to ban political actions outside the political arena. It's a lot like saying cheezing is bad. Don't hate the player, hate the game. You can't make up the rules, they are already there.
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
Im sorry, I wouldn't exactly call that growing up.
Politics is not growing up.....
and lastly if you dont like the scene because they are nerds, why do you watch it??
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is insanely rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending the opposing side of whatever political issue you're railing against.
It's horrible sportsmanship, it's a poor way to treat politics and the sport, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
Music is art, not an international competitive sport.
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is INSANELY rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending whatever political issue you're railing against.
Horrible sportsmanship, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
I feel like you kinda missed the point. I'm not saying that's political because of the guy waving his flag - of course that happens at every single international sporting event. But a pair of Chinese guys aren't going to attack someone waving any old flag are they? The context of their violence is hundreds of years of political disagreement. I'm not condoning it, i'm just saying that it exists, and a poll isn't going to make it go away. And since international sport is about nations competing against each other, then i feel like it does have a place. It adds something, whether it's just an extra level of plot or just more intensity in the game.
Try telling a Celtic or Rangers fan that sport is only about on-field competition. Try telling it to a fan at a Barca vs Real game, particuarly in the Franco era. Try telling it to a Russian football fan at pretty much any time in the past 70 years. Try telling it to Jesse Owens or Muahamad Ali (note: not Cassius Clay).
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is INSANELY rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending whatever political issue you're railing against.
Horrible sportsmanship, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
I feel like you kinda missed the point. I'm not saying that's political because of the guy waving his flag - of course that happens at every single international sporting event. But a pair of Chinese guys aren't going to attack someone waving any old flag are they? The context of their violence is hundreds of years of political disagreement. I'm not condoning it, i'm just saying that it exists, and a poll isn't going to make it go away. And since international sport is about nations competing against each other, then i feel like it does have a place. It adds something, whether it's just an extra level of plot or just more intensity in the game.
Try telling a Celtic or Rangers fan that sport is only about on-field competition. Try telling it to a fan at a Barca vs Real game, particuarly in the Franco era. Try telling it to a Russian football fan at pretty much any time in the past 70 years. Try telling it to Jesse Owens or Muahamad Ali (note: not Cassius Clay)
Nationalism is fine. Political issues are not. (Repeating myself) I don't recall the Celtics or Rangers having any political agendas.... Do they?
What political agenda does Russian football represent? Social Welfare?
And how about Muhammed Ali? Was he fighting for or against abortion?
Nationalism does not equal politics. I think it is you that misses the point, not me.
On March 31 2011 20:32 Manit0u wrote: You mean, SC2 progamers doing stuff similar to what Kozakiewicz did back in '80 to show disrespect for USSR? + Show Spoiler +
What exactly did he do? I see a polish pole vaulter cheering after clearing the jump, while polish flags are shown in the audience. Not much USSR dissing going on there, if you ask me.
On March 31 2011 21:09 Leporello wrote: Nationalism is fine. Political issues are not. (Repeating myself) I don't recall the Celtics or Rangers having any political agendas.... Do they?
fyi Starting in May, all teams in the korean sc2 conference (basically all except SlayerS) will wear a "dokdo is korean territory" badge on their uniforms
I think it is cool if competitors show that not all they know/care about is the game they are playing, and actually show some passion for the world and state of things in general. However, it really depends. Discriminatory or otherwise obviously alienating views should be left unexpressed by players, unless they don't care if they completely turn off most of their viewers of course. It should be up to them.
Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
Exactly. So many people from the "new era" of internet and so on have a, in their own eyes, "neutral" view of politics, which is just ridiculous and a-historical. As followers of "esports" and new arenas of entertainment, creativity and expression, we have marginalization in common; I think it would be good if more people showed resistance to that and other types of reactionary attitudes faced by people everywhere.
As long as people want to hear players interviews - I personally have seldom cared about what any athlete, rock star, or video game nerd had to say - people are going to have to listen to whatever they say.
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is INSANELY rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending whatever political issue you're railing against.
Horrible sportsmanship, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
I feel like you kinda missed the point. I'm not saying that's political because of the guy waving his flag - of course that happens at every single international sporting event. But a pair of Chinese guys aren't going to attack someone waving any old flag are they? The context of their violence is hundreds of years of political disagreement. I'm not condoning it, i'm just saying that it exists, and a poll isn't going to make it go away. And since international sport is about nations competing against each other, then i feel like it does have a place. It adds something, whether it's just an extra level of plot or just more intensity in the game.
Try telling a Celtic or Rangers fan that sport is only about on-field competition. Try telling it to a fan at a Barca vs Real game, particuarly in the Franco era. Try telling it to a Russian football fan at pretty much any time in the past 70 years. Try telling it to Jesse Owens or Muahamad Ali (note: not Cassius Clay)
Nationalism is fine. Political issues are not. (Repeating myself) I don't recall the Celtics or Rangers having any political agendas.... Do they?
What political agenda does Russian football represent? Social Welfare?
And how about Muhammed Ali? Was he fighting for or against abortion?
Nationalism does not equal politics. I think it is you that misses the point, not me.
Celtic/Rangers is religious, but it boils over into politics. I was just using it as an example of how sport is about more than sport. To quote Terry Pratchet: "The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football." Russian football is riddled with political issues - admittedly in a bad way. Teams being owned by the government, the military, gangsters, police teams 'Football against the Enemy' and 'Football Dynamo' are both great books on this subject (the former is more global, while the latter is purely about Russian fooball).
And Ali, are you kidding? He was a huge part of the civil rights movement. He was friends with Malcom X for a time, and was highly political and controversial figure - i kinda feel like i'm stating the obvious with this one. Hell, he threw his olympic medal away as part of his disgust at racism.
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is INSANELY rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending whatever political issue you're railing against.
Horrible sportsmanship, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
I feel like you kinda missed the point. I'm not saying that's political because of the guy waving his flag - of course that happens at every single international sporting event. But a pair of Chinese guys aren't going to attack someone waving any old flag are they? The context of their violence is hundreds of years of political disagreement. I'm not condoning it, i'm just saying that it exists, and a poll isn't going to make it go away. And since international sport is about nations competing against each other, then i feel like it does have a place. It adds something, whether it's just an extra level of plot or just more intensity in the game.
Try telling a Celtic or Rangers fan that sport is only about on-field competition. Try telling it to a fan at a Barca vs Real game, particuarly in the Franco era. Try telling it to a Russian football fan at pretty much any time in the past 70 years. Try telling it to Jesse Owens or Muahamad Ali (note: not Cassius Clay)
Nationalism is fine. Political issues are not. (Repeating myself) I don't recall the Celtics or Rangers having any political agendas.... Do they?
What political agenda does Russian football represent? Social Welfare?
And how about Muhammed Ali? Was he fighting for or against abortion?
Nationalism does not equal politics. I think it is you that misses the point, not me.
Please do some research before posting about things you apparently don't know much about.
Nationalism is a political sentiment; expressing the self-determination and authority of their nation. Many people think nationalism is bullshit because what nation they happened to be born in is just pure chance.
I think he is entitled to his opinion(ofcourse), but it isn't the right place to express it, as in, I think there are more appropriate places he could express his political opinions; forums/interviews/twitter etc.
I'm not against what he did, but I don't think it was the best idea.
On March 31 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: The North Pole belongs to Canada!
As long as people want to hear players interviews - I personally have seldom cared about what any athlete, rock star, or video game nerd had to say - people are going to have to listen to whatever they say.
This is also a solid point. 95% of sports and esports interviews are utterly tedious and mundane. Most of the players - especially footballers - are vapid. If you don't like what they say, don't listen. I wasn't even aware of the Marine King event for this exact reason.
I can't say I agree with politics having a place in esports.
But MKP showing this sign with the whole charity for Japan being plugged and being part of the tournament showed really poor sense of timing on the part of MKP.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
You don't think it'd be a little awkward if an American gamer was in a SC2 booth and held up a Palin 2012 sign as he was getting ready?
I understand the sponsors and endorsements that teams and players get, but it would just seem out of place if the person became political inside of the booth. Outside of the game, he can obviously do whatever the heck he wants.
But that's just my opinion. I assume he's free to do what he wants when it comes to making gestures and having signs in the booth. I just want to focus on StarCraft when I watch StarCraft
For me, they have a place in e-sports. Why shouldnt political statements be allowed ?
You are right, there have not been that many statements in sports yet. To name a few:
During the cold war, sportsman representing european countries made political statements all the time.
When Tommie Smith and John Carlos won gold/bronze at the olympics in 1968, they raised their hand for the black power salute. They were then banned from the olympics. What does it have to do with sportsmanship if there are driving issues and you cant talk about them ? Hell they didnt even talk.
Thy olympics of 1980 were boycotted by the U.S. and many other countries. I would say that is a political statement in sports.
Do some of the U.S. citizens know this man - Albert Pujols ? As far as I could understand it, he is right there on the politics train. Or Carlos Delgado in 2004 when he said that he would "no longer stand" for "god bless america" for he thought that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were "the stupidest wars ever".
What about the Phoenix Suns who change their jerseys to "Los Suns" to protest against the Arizona Immigration Law.
What about Muhammad Ali who refused to fight in the vietnam war ?
And as I understand, a lot of ex-sport stars run for political office in the U.S. . I refuse to believe that at the end of their career they just say :"Yup, gonna be a senator. Why not ?" - I guess this process has to start while they are in sports.
(Kevin Johnson, NBA, Sacramento mayor and Heath Shuler, NFL, North Carolina congressional seat for example)
Politics and sports of any kind does not belong together. If you as a player want to promote something political, do that in an "up close"-interview or something like that, were he is representing his personal him and not the professional him.
On March 31 2011 21:34 bobhund wrote: Politics and sports of any kind does not belong together. If you as a player want to promote something political, do that in an "up close"-interview or something like that, were he is representing his personal him and not the professional him.
I think that's a really good point.
Unless your team is representing a political figure, you shouldn't be making political comments in your team uniform. That standard (of representing your team or business) applies almost universally. If you want to have opinions (or do something silly), do it when you're not in uniform, or else it'll reflect badly on your team, and you'll need to worry about the repercussions.
On March 31 2011 21:34 bobhund wrote: Politics and sports of any kind does not belong together. If you as a player want to promote something political, do that in an "up close"-interview or something like that, were he is representing his personal him and not the professional him.
I think that's a really good point.
Unless your team is representing a political figure, you shouldn't be making political comments in your team uniform. That standard (of representing your team or business) applies almost universally. If you want to have opinions (or do something silly), do it when you're not in uniform, or else it'll reflect badly on your team, and you'll need to worry about the repercussions.
I think what you're missing is that the repercussions of sports/esports are extremely minor for most people, whereas the repercussions of political action has a much more profound effect on society. So athletes know the tradeoff, and it obviously it still makes sense.
I agree with Tufas completely.
In fact, we already saw it in ESPORTS at WCG Seattle when the Taiwanese player used Taiwan's flag instead the flag of Chinese Taipei. And then they Chinese reporters at the event berated him and chased him to his hotel room. >.>
So yes, I think defending your beliefs is quite important.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
On March 31 2011 21:26 [SuNdae] wrote: I can't say I agree with politics having a place in esports.
But MKP showing this sign with the whole charity for Japan being plugged and being part of the tournament showed really poor sense of timing on the part of MKP.
This is exactly how i feel about the situation myself. The timing is the worst thing about this situation and the fact that it happened is another matter entirely.
It's much better to watch MKP to peacefully use his own "celebration time" to raise some political awareness about something that bothers him than watch MC doing his brainless BM actions just to entertain the mob and his ego
On March 31 2011 19:51 Carras wrote: yes,why not, hes just expressing his thougths .. or do u just want a little robot who can play a game ?
Political discussion always devolves into a pretty dreadful discussion. I really don't care to hear any progamers views on anything political... ever... Kinda confused why anyone would want to hear it actually.
On March 31 2011 21:34 bobhund wrote: Politics and sports of any kind does not belong together. If you as a player want to promote something political, do that in an "up close"-interview or something like that, were he is representing his personal him and not the professional him.
I think that's a really good point.
Unless your team is representing a political figure, you shouldn't be making political comments in your team uniform. That standard (of representing your team or business) applies almost universally. If you want to have opinions (or do something silly), do it when you're not in uniform, or else it'll reflect badly on your team, and you'll need to worry about the repercussions.
I think what you're missing is that the repercussions of sports/esports are extremely minor for most people, whereas the repercussions of political action has a much more profound effect on society. So athletes know the tradeoff, and it obviously it still makes sense.
Obviously, the passion that these figures have for their beliefs is admirable, and some of the causes they are fighting for are incredibly important. And I understand that they would advertise their beliefs on the biggest stage they can, so I understand why they would do it, if they care more about their opinions then their personal future. We're in agreement there.
That being said, while I agree with you that some people are so passionate that they'll do anything for their politician (or whatever view they want to market), I think that most people think twice about personally advertising their opinions under the logo of their business, because they'd probably get fired from the heat it could bring the company.
That's why these events are so controversial when they do arise; they're very uncommon.
On March 31 2011 19:51 Carras wrote: yes,why not, hes just expressing his thougths .. or do u just want a little robot who can play a game ?
Political discussion always devolves into a pretty dreadful discussion. I really don't care to hear any progamers views on anything political... ever... Kinda confused why anyone would want to hear it actually.
Same for me.
If i want to get news about politic, i've a dedicate tv show for that in my country, and a ton of web sites for internationnal politic.
When i watch GSL, IEM, TSL3 or some european competitions, i want to see a good stacraft show, dont care of politics in that moment, specialy from 20 years old players...
On March 31 2011 20:48 Zechs wrote: Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
This even has precedant in esports, as WC3 fans should know. During WCG Seattle Fly100% and Sky actually got onstage to attack a competitor who waved a Taiwanese flag. It happens, and is a sign of esports growing up IMO. It means more than just a bunch of nerds playing games now.
It's a horrible precedent, and it should (and will) be condemned.
Your point about the flag is completely moot. Politics is not the same as nationalism. On the international level, in an international competition, flag-waving and nationalism are completely legitimate. Like the Olympics, you're representing your country as it pertains to the competition at hand. You are not representing your country as an elected official in a political arena. Bringing up political issues is completely illegitimate. It has nothing to do with the sport, and it is insanely rude to your opponents. Especially if you tie your political statement to your victory -- you're basically insinuating that your opponent is somehow responsible for defending the opposing side of whatever political issue you're railing against.
It's horrible sportsmanship, it's a poor way to treat politics and the sport, and I don't like that MKP pulled out that sign. He should absolutely apologize to Sen, his opponent that series. It also was counter-productive. It's not going to change the issue any, and may have lost MKP the respect of some of his fans.
You are demonstrating a really disturbing level of ignorance here. Waving a Taiwanese flag is a political statement, as Taiwan's ownership is a matter of dispute between China and the Taiwanese government. It would be impossible for any Taiwanese person to engage in flag-waving and nationalism, whether they consider themselves Chinese or Taiwanese, without making a controversial political statement.
I don't agree with MKP's choice to make a statement regarding this particular issue, but to say that his espousing an opinion regarding a territorial dispute between Korea and Japan is bad, but someone else's decision to espouse an opinion regarding a territorial dispute between China and Taiwan is just fine is just ridiculous.
More generally to the point: Sport, like music, has been a forum for political discourse throughout history, and it's going to stay that way. Athletes have opinions just like everyone else, some of them very deeply felt, and if you put them in a forum with a very large audience, some of them are going to express them. It might be aggravating, but can you really say it's bad for people to take advantage of a podium their fame gives them to express a deeply felt belief?
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
Musicians are magical being without opinions that materialise on every gig and play their music ? I for example think that lyrics are a very important part of the music and when I hear a bunch of stupid lyrics he can play guitar like Adrian Legg and I couldnt care less. Part of why so many rock bands of the 60s are still so absolutely awesome to listen to is for the message they are carrying ..
Ah damn, its derailing the thread. PM me if you want to discuss it further.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song.
That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music.
And I wouldn't like that if I were music.
But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me.
On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote: I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late.
On March 31 2011 22:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote: but can you really say it's bad for people to take advantage of a podium their fame gives them to express a deeply felt belief?
No. The fact people use their fame that way dont disturb me at all. But a GSL is not the place and the moment for that from my personnal point of view
They can use their fame to be invited in some political shows and speak about their belief, no problem for that.
But in gaming show it's not it's place. People come to see games, nothing else. It's just uncalled for.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song.
That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music.
And I wouldn't like that if I were music.
But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me.
On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote: I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late.
To clarify, i'm not saying that good music HAS to be philosophical or political. I listen to trance to chill out or whatever. But even that has an uplifting message that comes through the lyrics (dumb as they may be) and especially through the music itself. What i'm trying to get at is that if you ONLY listen to music solely because it "sounds cool" then you're missing out.
Poor taste to bring up a nationalistic dispute in an event that's supposed to raise aid for the Japanese victims. It's two barren rocks for crying out loud, why would MKP think this is so important he has to state it in a fundraising event? If he was bringing up some severe injustice, I might be "fine" with it, but something like this which is only a territorial dispute and nationalistic nonsense should stay out of sports of all kinds. Lost my respect for that guy.
On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote: So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics.
It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate.
Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad
Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain
Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/
I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song.
That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music.
And I wouldn't like that if I were music.
But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me.
On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote: I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late.
To clarify, i'm not saying that good music HAS to be philosophical or political. I listen to trance to chill out or whatever. But even that has an uplifting message that comes through the lyrics (dumb as they may be) and especially through the music itself. What i'm trying to get at is that if you ONLY listen to music solely because it "sounds cool" then you're missing out.
I think you're confusing a political message with a message that brings out your emotions. Lyrics can help with that, dumb as they may be, but it actually is perfectly possible to do so without any, thus ditching the dumb parts. And I love ditching the dumb parts.
I don't necessarily mean ditching vocals, as opposed to lyrics. I love listening to vocals even if I don't understand crap about (or even if I do, hah, e.g. I listen to metal music once every while).
Well, if you think I'm missing out, I'm not saying all this shit without at least trying it out. But I'll stick to me and my "cool sounding" music.
I'm going too off topic here but it's an interesting discussion, anyone willing to continue should do so over PM.
On March 31 2011 22:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote: More generally to the point: Sport, like music, has been a forum for political discourse throughout history, and it's going to stay that way. Athletes have opinions just like everyone else, some of them very deeply felt, and if you put them in a forum with a very large audience, some of them are going to express them. It might be aggravating, but can you really say it's bad for people to take advantage of a podium their fame gives them to express a deeply felt belief?
Of cause you can't stop people from taking advantage of that, but you can make sure that they are aware of the consequence, if they felt it needed to be heard above all else, it's upto them.
I think many people are generally looking at this from a too low of level. Everyone should able to express their opinion, nothing is wrong with that.
But imagine your in a shoe of average gamer who wants esports to grow, you want the event to be successful, popular, you want to create an environment where people with different ethic, beliefs can get together and enjoy something they love. The last thing you want is some sort of controversy issue that divides the people.
These controversy issues can often leads to decrease in viewerships, where some people simply do not feel comfortable with the environment. It can also leads to boycott where it has happened in Olympics. You want as much viewers as possible so big sponsors are willing to put in the money.
Worse of all, people with personal agenda can use it against the community or the event. For example if someone made a political statement in an event, then suddenly you might find dumb political figures accusing and stereotyping gamers, then news network reported that, and bang, you'll find whole alot of dumb parents suddenly stop their kids from playing that game.
I know the example I gave was bit extreme, but I just want to point out we should not encourage political statement in esport scene because it's most likely bring more bad than good.
On March 31 2011 22:33 sushiman wrote: Poor taste to bring up a nationalistic dispute in an event that's supposed to raise aid for the Japanese victims. It's two barren rocks for crying out loud, why would MKP think this is so important he has to state it in a fundraising event? If he was bringing up some severe injustice, I might be "fine" with it, but something like this which is only a territorial dispute and nationalistic nonsense should stay out of sports of all kinds. Lost my respect for that guy.
I agree to some extent. This event was hardly the right place to bring forth anti-japanese sentiment . Politics should stay out of e-sports anyway.
btw: It is sad that two developed countries like SK and Japan can't settle an insignificant dispute like that and even more sad that both sides infuse their youth with nationalistic nonsense over such a minor issue. The leaders of both countries should feel ashamed. I wouldn't blame MKP himself, he is just brainwashed.
I'm perfectly fine with sportspeople of any sport, be it traditional or electronic to express their views on whatever matters they wish but there are better places to do so than right after a game. Just holding up a sign after winning a contest instead of making an intelligent and reasoned statement in an interview or the such will only lead to misunderstandings, division amongst both the audience and competitors and anger towards the player.
On March 31 2011 20:57 shinarit wrote: They can have opinion, they can express it, but not in an event where people go to watch sport.
This is exactly right. If the Korean e-Sports scene does not have a particular stance on a controversial subject, then players shouldn't go around promoting that stance while inside the booth or while wearing a team's colors.
There are a lot in there that nonKoreans don't and will never know about. Personally I think at worst it's a matter of taste, but I don't mind, especially given the gravity of the situation. This poll merely obscures and trivializes the situation. Leave it be, especially foreigners.
It's like Ali's comments on the "Viet Congs" in the 60s. Then controversial, Now makes every sense.
I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
On March 31 2011 23:10 Nesto wrote: well guess the real tragedy is, that Japan and Korea have a senseless dispute over those tiny islands.
Had to look it up, there are 2 permanent citizens and 37 Korean police officers living on Dokdo - kinda stupid isn't it?
I feel like I should point out that these territorial disputes over tiny or insignificant seeming islands (Japan and Russia dispute the ownership of a few islands around Sakhalin/Karafuto that are similarly unpopulated) can actually have a significance beyond petty nationalistic squabbling, though there's obviously a lot of that, too. By international law, a country gains exclusive fishing and other economic exploitation rights in a region extending up to 200 nautical miles from its shoreline, so if you can establish ownership of a tiny little rock in the middle of the ocean, that can be worth significantly more than the island itself would seem to justify.
Obviously, this situation must be a bit more complicated, because we're not dealing with an island out in the middle of nowhere, but we shouldn't just assume that the only source of this sort of dispute is chest thumping and childish pettiness.
OGN had that Dokdo Is Korean Land/Territory, I forget which, as part of its station Logo for a while does not seem like a big deal. Seems more of a fad than a political statement, like people having runty US flags hanging from their car window after 9-11. Just because an individual is being nationalistic doesn't mean they're being hostile.
I don't know if there should be any kind of administrative body punishing players who make political statements, but I do think that it needs to be frowned upon. Political statements can potentially lead to segregation and is that the road we really want to take?
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Torte de Lini Canada. March 31 2011 23:49 I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there's a place and time for it. This was not it.
When? During the interviews? Or on his way home when some random fan takes a picture with him?
Mortality United States. March 31 2011 23:51 I don't know if there should be any kind of administrative body punishing players who make political statements, but I do think that it needs to be frowned upon. Political statements can potentially lead to segregation and is that the road we really want to take?
What segregation are we talking about here? I agree with the post late in the previous page that MK is entitles to express his opinion, just as he (the poster) is entitled to say SC2 is not the venue for it. However, there has to be objective conditions to certain agreements and disagreements. The worst thing we could do is argue out of apathy or ignorance.
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Exactly my point. Lets leave it to the koreans and the japanese then. What are we doing here on an online forum discussing the "ethical" "political" aesthetics and propriety of such gestures. This is bourgeois obscurantism. Did that poster do anything to your progaming spectator experience beside hurt a vague feeling here or there? People have died because of that dispute. It's terrible as it is.
He is using his fame as a platform to say something he considered important, nothing wrong with that. The whole point is to send a message to people who might not normally hear it, the "there's a time and a place" argument completely defeats his purpose. I'm happy to see a kid with the guts to do this.
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Wait, so you think it is terrible, but you hope someone does the same thing again just to get back at him?
It's not exactly the most polarizing of issues; I don't think you can find many people watching Starcraft who wouldn't agree with him. Unless there are a lot of 70 year old nationalistic japanese who watch Starcraft.
On March 31 2011 23:51 Mortality wrote: I don't know if there should be any kind of administrative body punishing players who make political statements, but I do think that it needs to be frowned upon. Political statements can potentially lead to segregation and is that the road we really want to take?
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Wait, so you think it is terrible, but you hope someone does the same thing again just to get back at him?
The point is for a Korean it would take something like that to realize how retarded they were for putting up that sign in the first place
While I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with political expression at actual game events, I feel it detracts from the actual sport and should be saved for other mediums of expression. I'm not going to condemn anyone for doing otherwise, but that's just how I feel.
EDIT: Just saw the picture posted earlier in the thread. If anything it's quite tacky for what is a pretty serious discussion. Reminds me of Tebow and his bible verses on his face.
On March 31 2011 21:47 Jibba wrote:
In fact, we already saw it in ESPORTS at WCG Seattle when the Taiwanese player used Taiwan's flag instead the flag of Chinese Taipei. And then they Chinese reporters at the event berated him and chased him to his hotel room. >.>
So yes, I think defending your beliefs is quite important.
That's a different level of politics. The most important difference being that push came to shove, and the competitor had to make a decision between which flag to represent. In a situation like MKP's, he wasn't forced to make the sign or comment on the island at all. He just did it. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but I believe the two situations are not comparable.
I think it was a bad idea.. quite a few people have some pretty f***ed up views. I don't want to see signs about "Manifest Destiny" sh*t. Hold up a sign that says "Marines Own"
on a side note; doesn't the word for foreigner in Korean directly translate to "Not one of us"? One of my friends told me that, not sure if its true but.. ?
Hm i am torn about this. I think for some country, athletes are the only medium from which a country's problem can be recognised and acknowledged by the global public.
Imagine an athlete or esports athlete from a repressed country such as North Korea or Myanmar putting up signs asking for help or bringing up an issue that is unknown to the global public because of repression in the country. Or an athlete from a very poor country that is being bullied by its rich neighbour bringing up the issue in a global arena such as the GSL. A person with such fame and stature are the only representation of that poor country in the global arena and thus he is entitled to bring up politics.
However, in the case of South Korea, there are a lot of medium in which to garner public interest and thus it feels inappropriate to bring it up in an esports competition. Sure it might get the attention of a few more people but at what cost. Would it be worth the distraction? Probably not.
I don't see how anyone can vote "no" here... There will always be political opinions held by players in any sport, and people should be able to express themselves accordingly. Additionally, the historical tension between Japan and Korea is historically very high due to past abuses by the Japanese, so I am not surprised that MKP would have a strong opinion on this issue.
Sports exist in the real world, so political opinion is inextricable from it.
On April 01 2011 00:58 deathserv wrote: I don't see how anyone can vote "no" here... There will always be political opinions held by players in any sport, and people should be able to express themselves accordingly. Additionally, the historical tension between Japan and Korea is historically very high due to past abuses by the Japanese, so I am not surprised that MKP would have a strong opinion on this issue.
Sports exist in the real world, so political opinion is inextricable from it.
No one is saying that people shouldn't be able to hold opinions, but a game booth or a sports arena is not the forum for political. Political talk has a tendency to stain anything it touches, let's leave it out of e-sports and sports in general.
I'm in a dance company with a bunch of Asians (all kinds!) and our Korean social chair will sometimes attach, "It's DOKDO not Takeshima!!!" to her social event emails to the company. There are even a few Japanese people in the company o.o;; so it seems like something that Koreans might just say colloquially.
It does seem a little BM to put the comment on a public broadcast, though.
On April 01 2011 01:12 aimaimaim wrote: Having political opinions are fine. Its just like religion.
But announcing it to the world through a non-political medium is dumb. Just like religion.
No wonder why you lived through 9 years of your president Gloraia Aroyo. People in Philipine are too apolitical and passive. In 2 years I studied English there, all hate their president, but do nothing about it. Sigh
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
What exactly do you mean cheapen esports? And regarding what you posted about the sc2 council approving and endorsing, i was watching a bw game and i noticed a flashy sign on the top right corner of my screen saying "did you know? dokdo is korean territory"(in english) so i think this is a norm in korea (this was before the earthquake).
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story. Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights. And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here. Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up. It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Wait, so you think it is terrible, but you hope someone does the same thing again just to get back at him?
The point is for a Korean it would take something like that to realize how retarded they were for putting up that sign in the first place
Sounds like you just want it to escalate so you can be right.
East Asian countries have a VERY long history with each other. Japan, China and Korea being the most prominent. Therefore, nationalism is very well alive over there and promt silly debates e.g. over what scripture derived originally from where and what people originally descends from what other country.
We in the West (Europe) live in a post nationalist sociecty and can't really understand anymore how our forefather could get so heated up barely 100 years ago to go to war with eachother devestating all of Europe in WW1. But East Asia is still stuck in this nationalism and thus most political anylists think that East Asia will be the new hot spot of the world in the upcoming century.
He is having his 5 minutes of fame. I feel why he has everyone's eye's and ears. Let him get his message across. If you want it out of esports then ignore it.
I am sure your favorite actor or musician has done the exact same thing during some speech, concert etc.
I think that the discussion is being framed in unnecessarily absolute terms. I know that it is exceedingly rare for a political issue to be boiled down to a simple question of "for it" or "against it," but that is what is happening here.
The question isn't whether "politics" have a place in "e-sports." Politics already have a place in e-sports insofar as e-sports is an international project run by humans, the political animals. The real question here is what kind of political expressions we're comfortable seeing and what kinds we're not. But unfortunately the answers to that question is a little too complex to be put into a poll in the OP.
Dont forget, politics IS sport. Political debate sparks all the same emotions as fans of two different religions or starcraft clubs fighting over who is better, though the
On March 31 2011 21:16 Dystisis wrote: I think it is cool if competitors show that not all they know/care about is the game they are playing, and actually show some passion for the world and state of things in general. However, it really depends. Discriminatory or otherwise obviously alienating views should be left unexpressed by players, unless they don't care if they completely turn off most of their viewers of course. It should be up to them.
Sorry to break it to the 'no' voters, but sport and politics are historically insperable. There are countless examples of this kind of thing, and esports is no different, nor should it be IMO. Why? Sport, and to a lesser extent esport, is a powerful medium watched by millions of people worldwide - what better platform to put a message across?
Exactly. So many people from the "new era" of internet and so on have a, in their own eyes, "neutral" view of politics, which is just ridiculous and a-historical. As followers of "esports" and new arenas of entertainment, creativity and expression, we have marginalization in common; I think it would be good if more people showed resistance to that and other types of reactionary attitudes faced by people everywhere.
There are fundamentally two different methods of managing property. The economic method, and the political method. Being politically neutral or ignoring politics simply means being against/agnostic toward political method, and concentrating on the economic method instead(which, and not political method has, by the way, created all the wonderful games we love)
On April 01 2011 01:38 Noxie wrote: He is having his 5 minutes of fame. I feel why he has everyone's eye's and ears. Let him get his message across. If you want it out of esports then ignore it.
I am sure your favorite actor or musician has done the exact same thing during some speech, concert etc.
Ye. There's a ton of political musicians and bands out there. Some of them make it their job to express their political opinions musically. Manu Chao or Rise Against are extremely clear about which politicians they despise and what kind of laws they'd like to see promulgated (MARIHUANA ILLEGAL DERP DERP). I like both bands even though I can't always agree with their statements. It might bother some people, but I don't care. Since e-sports is part of the entertainment "community", I don't see the problem there. Sure it's a competitive scene and sure the sponsors might get angry, but people are people and they have opinions. Everyone is always happy to see players show some emotion (which might be the main reason why IdrA is so popular). Now MK expresses a view that makes him more of a character and people complain because they don't agree in this particular case. I don't see the problem.
How can korean even possibly make any historical remark? They don't even teach real history at school. You know in korea, whoever says anything positive about japan is persecuted from the society. They don't even have freedom of speech in this 21st centry
On April 01 2011 02:06 shinku) wrote: How can korean even possibly make any historical remark? They don't even teach real history at school. You know in korea, whoever says anything positive about japan is persecuted from the society. They don't even have freedom of speech in this 21st centry
I'm just so glad this is a great forums with great mods, so I don't even feel I have to answer to such posts. Otherwise I'd feel I have to.
It's a discussion about a few rocks and half a person living on it. Out of all things MKP could have done with his time ;/.
Truly policital statements have a place in sports (think apartheid, nazism, etc), but this is just silly. Sports should be a place where people come together, and choosing such a small (and potentially divisive) issue is poor judgement from his side.
People who watch the GSL or any other sc tournament are doing it because they love starcraft and want to see awesome games. There's no point in bringing in politics because the forum is inappropriate to the message and its a potential source for dividing us politically rather then uniting us in watching our favorite esport.
That's how I feel initially... but then again, MKP is just expressing an opinion here for one millisecond on a piece of paper. The message also seems quite harmless and non-divisive, maybe towards japanese audience? But I guess when the OP was asking the general question I was thinking what if players started wearing T-shirts saying like "MARRIAGE IS FOR ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN!" or maybe "ABORTION IS MURDER!" these messages would just be /facepalm at least for me.
So my answer is: it's fine to express some political thoughts but only very briefly and the content of the message can't be too shocking/divisive.
On April 01 2011 02:06 shinku) wrote: How can korean even possibly make any historical remark? They don't even teach real history at school. You know in korea, whoever says anything positive about japan is persecuted from the society. They don't even have freedom of speech in this 21st centry
they teach you that in japan? maybe 10-20 years ago education was like that in korea, it more relaxed now. country and race are the worst human inventions ever!
Not a big deal at all. He held up a sign for all of 5 seconds. The focus of the whole match was SC2. He's just using his platform as a top player to state his opinion. I don't think there's really anything wrong with that.
i dont even know why koreans get so passionate about the whole dokdo thing.
its de facto korean territory and thats not gonna change soon... unless japan acts militarily against korean forcibly occupying there, aka never. no matter how much japan is gonna try in disputing it. koreans are just getting trolled if theyre reacting to japan's lul attempt that makes sensational korean headlines.
On April 01 2011 02:14 Derez wrote: It's a discussion about a few rocks and half a person living on it. Out of all things MKP could have done with his time ;/.
Truly policital statements have a place in sports (think apartheid, nazism, etc), but this is just silly. Sports should be a place where people come together, and choosing such a small (and potentially divisive) issue is poor judgement from his side.
The "few rocks" extend your maritime borders, its fishing rights and natural resources within those borders. And sovereignty issues are always petty unless its your territory involved.
Politics in sports in general is wrong imo. Especially when players feel strongly about their opinion, they're effectively cutting away a part of their fan base, who are really for the other cause. Regardless, I doubt that it's increasing the fanbase.
People can use their fame to further a political cause if they want to. If you want eSports fans to see your dissenting opinion too, qualify for the GSL.
I don't really mind. Players can represent themselves however they want. A league may decide that it doesn't want these comments shown on their broadcast but that is entirely up to them.
Personally, it's just another thing I will use to decide whether I like a player or not.
Maybe he thought Sen was from Japan... Still, political statements don't fit into e-sport, especially with someone who has that much fans. If he had wrote "Donate Money to japan" I would'nt mind, it's a good thing, but using this chance for a political statement, definitly not appropriate
I wouldn't say politics never has a place in sports but this is just retarded. It's a petty dispute and he's just annoying everyone with it.
Of course it is his right to be annoying if he wants to (although I imagine organizers will ban this as it threatens their commercial interests), but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
On April 01 2011 01:37 Dexx wrote: East Asian countries have a VERY long history with each other. Japan, China and Korea being the most prominent. Therefore, nationalism is very well alive over there and promt silly debates e.g. over what scripture derived originally from where and what people originally descends from what other country.
We in the West (Europe) live in a post nationalist sociecty and can't really understand anymore how our forefather could get so heated up barely 100 years ago to go to war with eachother devestating all of Europe in WW1. But East Asia is still stuck in this nationalism and thus most political anylists think that East Asia will be the new hot spot of the world in the upcoming century.
what are you talking about? in europe we have at the moment, more nationalistic rethoric and (race)hate than in the last 50 years. germany is i think the only country where the extreme right aren't getting stronger everyday. (but racist crap obiously gets its chance too with sarrazin). le pen in france, strache in austria, jobbik and it's fascist guards in hungary (who intimidate and fight roma), lega nord in italy etc. i could go on forever.
sport was always the playground for politics. every sport, some more or less.
The Liancourt Rocks are a point of heated contention, alongside other Japan–Korea disputes. The Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs considers its position "inalterable".[32][33] When Japan's Shimane prefecture announced a "Takeshima Day" in 2005, Koreans reacted with demonstrations and protests throughout the country, extreme examples of which included a mother and son slicing off their own fingers, and a man who set himself on fire.[34] In 2006, five Korean "Dokdo Riders" embarked on a world tour to raise international awareness of the dispute.[34] Another notable protest featured South Koreans decapitating pheasants in front of the Japanese Embassy.[26]
I voted no but you have tun understand how passionate people are about these
On April 01 2011 01:37 Dexx wrote: East Asian countries have a VERY long history with each other. Japan, China and Korea being the most prominent. Therefore, nationalism is very well alive over there and promt silly debates e.g. over what scripture derived originally from where and what people originally descends from what other country.
We in the West (Europe) live in a post nationalist sociecty and can't really understand anymore how our forefather could get so heated up barely 100 years ago to go to war with eachother devestating all of Europe in WW1. But East Asia is still stuck in this nationalism and thus most political anylists think that East Asia will be the new hot spot of the world in the upcoming century.
What?
One of the most defining characteristics of European politics for the past...oh, decade at least, has been the growth, in both size and popularity, of "new" nationalist parties, notably Sweden, Hungary, Holland, etc.
Modern European nationalism puts a twist on the more traditional meaning though, especially with Cameron and Merkel's "multiculturalism has failed" statements. It's not as "bad" as it was a long time ago, but claiming Europe is post-nationalist is far too optimistic, it's just that the nationalism has changed in both audience and tone. While, for example, Switzerland banning the construction of new minarets is nominally quite harmless, I think its safe to say it reflects a much more important underlying streak in many European nations.
Anyways, I feel MKP shouldn't have done this. It wasn't the time nor the place, especially given the venue and given the events in Japan. It was tasteless at best.
On April 01 2011 00:17 GrayGhost wrote: some of us use (e)sports to escape the politics
Couldn't agree more.
Everyone is entitled to their views and should be able to express them. But this is a show for entertainment and has nothing to do with the dispute over these islands. I don't suggest they 'ban' this, but it shouldn't be encouraged as it detracts a little from the entertainment of the show and may make some viewers feel quite uncomfortable (which they don't watch competitive SC2 to feel I'm sure).
I know going to the extreme is such an easy argument, but really just imagine if after every match we had political swipes and gestures. I feel It would really take something from the entertainment, but others might disagree.
It's going to happen, and there's no stopping that. International sports have always had political overtones...just look at chess during the Cold War or the Olympics during...any period of time.
I do dislike it, but part of me's happy that E-sports has come to this level of popularity that politics starts happening.
I don't want to be going off topic. So I leave it at that: You really have no clue, if you compare todays leftovers in this post nationalist Europe to the nationalism in Europe right before WW1 or to the nationalism in East Asia today.
On April 01 2011 02:50 LambtrOn wrote: Not a big deal at all. He held up a sign for all of 5 seconds. The focus of the whole match was SC2. He's just using his platform as a top player to state his opinion. I don't think there's really anything wrong with that.
I completely agree with this. He gained the attention of a large crowd and he did not go against any standing regulation. And it takes a certain amount of political awareness and courage to do such a thing. I liked it.
On April 01 2011 08:39 Orome wrote: It also takes a large amount of social unawareness to not realise that this wasn't the time or the place.
Could be claimed that it makes the message stronger, actually, and I think that was the intent. I definitely do not see MKP being unaware of the situation in Japan and GOM's fundraising efforts.
It's so ridiculous. Most people here just express: I wanna watch you own e-sports but I don't wanna know if you live in a hole outside town or get hunted by the government or whatever. Please just entertain me. The rest I do not care about. No wonder mankind seems to be stuck in evolution at the moment.
i don't think that politics has absolutely no place in e-sports or any sport for that matter. but i do think that this particular statement was "offensive" in the sense that it was an attack on Japan's claims to the islets. because of that, and the current tension/drama surrounding the issue today as the textbooks were approved - this was inappropriate imo.
This has probably already been said, but if athletes want to use their publicity and celebrity to make political statements, they should have complete freedom to do so, and I applaud them.
On April 01 2011 10:32 Kar98 wrote: Out of place to make a comment like that IMO. It was a charity event set up by GOM for Japan and MKP had to make a political statement
Politics have no place in professional sport or e-sport, unless you are interested in causing real life trouble. Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life (i.e MKP). I am pretty sure international sporting competitions such as the Olympics have rules for the player to not voice this kind of opinion on live air at the cost of the tournament's TV time. The player should, and can do whatever he wants though when he is on his on free time.
In other words he should've posted it on his cyworld/blog or whatever instead of pissing off Japanese GOM TV viewers.
Also wow, ya this was done FOR Japan as a charity event, is he fucking stupid?
I think you should always be able to express your opinion. Maybe there's a limit on how hardcore you can get, but you should always be able to speak your mind especially if you are on TV Obviously the team can sanction that if they don't accept it, or GomTV to avoid issues with their company, but as long as its acknowledge to be the views of the person alone, they can say whatever they want.
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
It may have been out of place, but I think it gives character to ESPORTS. We all know and love IdrA for his various BM and out of game antics, there's no reason why it should be disallowed. If GOM makes a rule saying "no political messages as ceremonies" that's fine, but if they don't have that rule in place and Progamers want to make political statements then why not? gives character to the game imo.
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
can you explain why there is a donation page on gomtv with almost 20k usd now? GOM didn't have to do this, GOM could've just made the world championship just like any other gom 5$ with ad's and 10$. However they made vods and hq live free to urge people to donate, and hell its working pretty nicely.
I don't know, but maybe it's just me. I sense more nationalism than politics in something like this. It's not like the two countries can vote together on it or anything, in fact, if I recall correctly, protests were held over it and it didn't, and couldn't have had, any impact over the islands. I voted no, but who knows? Maybe we might have Idra rocking out a Palin 2012 hat or something this year.
It's fine for him to have an opinion on the issue, but it is not okay for him to express it in an event like this. I do not watch esports to be preached to about politics. I can develop my own views on the subject, thank you very much.
In addition, what sort of precedent does this set? Is it still okay if we see signs for polarizing issues such as "abortion is murder"? All this does is create needless animosity among viewers. If you're going to do something like this, do it on your own time as a private citizen.
Edit: What is this "sc2 council"? Are they the new kespa or something?
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
no, I'm pretty sure they explicitly stated that they made it free and were accepting donations specifically because of Japan.
at any rate, It really isn't that big of a deal, now we all just happen to know MKP's view on this, big whoop.
On April 01 2011 11:07 Drubael wrote: I don't know, but maybe it's just me. I sense more nationalism than politics in something like this. It's not like the two countries can vote together on it or anything, in fact, if I recall correctly, protests were held over it and it didn't, and couldn't have had, any impact over the islands. I voted no, but who knows? Maybe we might have Idra rocking out a Palin 2012 hat or something this year.
you're getting internal politics confused with international politics, i think
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
no, I'm pretty sure they explicitly stated that they made it free and were accepting donations specifically because of Japan.
What they stated is irrelevant. We will never know, really. The point I am making is that it was not a charity event.
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
i wouldn't characterize the timing of his statement as "strong", but more controversial. i can't say how explicit it was that this was a "charity event", but so far it doesn't sound like it was a full fledged fund raising donation to japan deal (i can't really comment since i didn't watch it).
MKP is a pretty young dude, unless he's really hit the books and studied the history of the Dokdo Islets and the drama between his country and Japan, then he should be a LOT more reserved about his political beliefs on the matter. something tells me that his gosu skills didn't come from hours of book study - tryin not to hate, maybe it's the japanese in me.
Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
I don't have a problem with it. I can see why people might think it doesn't have a place in eSports but I'm happy to see people expressing their opinions. eSports is a big thing for people in Korea and I think it's alright for people to speak out.
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
no, I'm pretty sure they explicitly stated that they made it free and were accepting donations specifically because of Japan.
What they stated is irrelevant. We will never know, really. The point I am making is that it was not a charity event.
what are you talking about? Why would they have been free to begin with? Has ANY sc2 gom league been free so far?
And no, you do NOT need a college degree to voice your opinion, but the problem is that this is not MKP's opinion, he has been playing scbw and sc2 pretty much all of his life, all of his opinions are based off what his friends, hyungs, relatives tell him.
also this is just my opinion, which is very possible of being wrong.
tbh I'm watching for the games, and imo ceremonies RELATING to the game are fine imo..... but I'm not there to look at that.
Also that's kinda in bad taste, Japan's still having trouble about the earthquake (well at least rebuilding), and then a progamer goes and says HURR HURR "THAT BLAHBLAH LAND IS OURS" isn't...wat ('-')
or at least if you have that opinion, putting it in that environment isn't the best place to express that.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
the territory is 1) disputed, so you can't say that korea is right about this either.
2) you realize the textbooks were written before this donation and before the earthquake........ right?
Remember that old adage? If you want to keep your friends, don't discuss political and religious issues with them. It's the same with the relationship between eSports players and their fans. Political statements often estrange those who disagree with those statements. The players themselves might not necessarily care about losing the fans, but such trends have a way of getting out of hand.
Right now, there is no significant enough political conflict between most foreigners and Koreans such that they're likely to make statements that might be offensive to most foreigners (there probably aren't that many Japanese viewers, though I might be wrong). But imagine if this were to change. Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!" or "China get out of Tibet!" or other politically divisive issues.
Would such actions cause an outcry amongst the targeted populations? Probably. Would it worsen relations between countries and players in eSports? Probably. Imagine if every eSports tournament had players making political statements against each other, and every tournament match involved political conflicts between players from different countries.
Would that help make eSports better, or would it turn it into a political battleground?
Of course, such scenarios refer to extremes. MKP's behavior is probably not going to catch on amongst most other players. Still, by making a statement in support or against his behavior, viewers can have an effect on the direction eSports develops.
On April 01 2011 11:34 zhurai wrote: tbh I'm watching for the games, and imo ceremonies RELATING to the game are fine imo..... but I'm not there to look at that.
Also that's kinda in bad taste, Japan's still having trouble about the earthquake (well at least rebuilding), and then a progamer goes and says HURR HURR "THAT BLAHBLAH LAND IS OURS" isn't...wat ('-')
or at least if you have that opinion, putting it in that environment isn't the best place to express that.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
the territory is 1) disputed, so you can't say that korea is right about this either.
2) you realize the textbooks were written before this donation and before the earthquake........ right?
1. Dokdo has been administrated by South Korea for a long time now.
2. Public anger only arose recently. I have no idea when the textbooks are published, but this stuff is all over the news in Korea recently, so I can only assume it is a recent issue.
Really all the people saying that esports is not a place for politics are making me sick If you have strong opinions plus the will and oportunity to defend them, i don't have any problems with that, even if the ideas are a stockpile of shit.
Worse case scenario you end up looking like a retard but you did stand for what you think is fair and this is always something good as long as you are not actually retarted, you might learn things through exanching ideas with people that doesn't support your ideas.
Since we are talking about SC2 progamers, they're obviously smart people, for now we've only seen asian rivaleries in esports+politics, this is sad because those might just drive more hate between the fans.
Also i largely prefer a player standing for his belief, even shitty, rather than reading the same interviews over and over again (with only the presentation differing x)
But imagine if this were to change. Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!" or "China get out of Tibet!" or other politically divisive issues.
I only wish that will happen some day, just like it did in "regular" sports.
On April 01 2011 11:34 zhurai wrote: tbh I'm watching for the games, and imo ceremonies RELATING to the game are fine imo..... but I'm not there to look at that.
Also that's kinda in bad taste, Japan's still having trouble about the earthquake (well at least rebuilding), and then a progamer goes and says HURR HURR "THAT BLAHBLAH LAND IS OURS" isn't...wat ('-')
or at least if you have that opinion, putting it in that environment isn't the best place to express that.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
the territory is 1) disputed, so you can't say that korea is right about this either.
2) you realize the textbooks were written before this donation and before the earthquake........ right?
1. Dokdo has been administrated by South Korea for a long time now.
2. Public anger only arose recently. I have no idea when the textbooks are published, but this stuff is all over the news in Korea recently, so I can only assume it is a recent issue.
Well, he's welcome to say whatever the hell he wants. This isn't dreadfully offensive, in very poor taste mind, but not like he's cursing or what have you, so I don't see the need for any censorship or punishment.
As a fan, this is pointless crap and I don't want to see it. I'm here to watch StarCraft, after all. Fortunately, we can choose to not be a fan of MKP should any of us be sufficiently annoyed by his pointless crap.
On April 01 2011 11:47 Kanil wrote: Hm, this is... curious.
Well, he's welcome to say whatever the hell he wants. This isn't dreadfully offensive, in very poor taste mind, but not like he's cursing or what have you, so I don't see the need for any censorship or punishment.
As a fan, this is pointless crap and I don't want to see it. I'm here to watch StarCraft, after all. Fortunately, we can choose to not be a fan of MKP should any of us be sufficiently annoyed by his pointless crap.
Not MKP's decision. The Starcraft 2 Council in decided on it. Apparently all future progamers were supposed to hold up the sign, but I think MKP was the only one who did.
This stuff shouldn't be in esports or any sports, it does nothing but create controversy in an area that should be purely for entertainment. Saying that though, if MKP or anyone else wants to do stuff like that then i don't think they should be stopped or punished for it. People should be able to speak their minds when and where they want to, even if it seems incredibly stupid and counterproductive to us, that's what freedom of expression is.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
On April 01 2011 11:41 Azarkon wrote: Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!"
Oh, the horror! How much worse can life be??
Imagine your own country invaded by a foreign military for the sake of power and wealth, playing Starcraft with real people, with the real world. Imagine this country being the fattest nation in the world. Imagine this nation's population going to work every day like mindless drones to pay taxes that will pay for all the horrendous violence. Imagine all these spineless wimps complaining on their forum because the actions of their pathetic, anti-social, anti-freedom, immoral government was brought up to them while they were trying to enjoy their precious esports.
Now stop imagining and go look in a mirror. You should be ashamed of yourself.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote:Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful.
I still don't understand what the wider relevance is? Sure, now I'm aware that there's a dispute but I fail to see why I should care. Actually, quite the opposite, it feels like a very minor issue that has been blown way out of proportion. And even if it is important for Koreans surely they must see how unimportant it is for the world at large.
I mean, what was he expecting? People won't go: "wow, Japan is claiming a rock for themselves when it's actually Korea's, that's just terrible".
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote:Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful.
I still don't understand what the wider relevance is? Sure, now I'm aware that there's a dispute but I fail to see why I should care. Actually, quite the opposite, it feels like a very minor issue that has been blown way out of proportion. And even if it is important for Koreans surely they must see how unimportant it is for the world at large. I mean, what was he expecting? People won't go: "wow, Japan is claiming a rock for themselves when it's actually Korea's, that's just terrible".
Pretty much this, on PlayXP they talk about the SC2 Council and something about since its broadcast in so many countries they want them (foreigner fans) to support that dokdo belongs to korea. I guess they don't understand that most of us only really care about the game..
On April 01 2011 01:38 Noxie wrote: He is having his 5 minutes of fame. I feel why he has everyone's eye's and ears. Let him get his message across. If you want it out of esports then ignore it.
I am sure your favorite actor or musician has done the exact same thing during some speech, concert etc.
Actors don't hold up placards in the middle of movies. Perhaps musicians have more license to do it, but it is THEIR show. You go to a Rebecca Black concert to see Rebecca Black, whether she is singing or reciting her Nazi ideology. You go to a sports stadium to see sports. Not to see the players hold a political debate on the issue of abortion.
If MKP would've talked about Dokdo in a GSL interview session, I'd be a lot more fine with it. Not only would he not be insulting his opponent, but he could actually talk about the issue.
Instead MKP waves a little sign after winning his series... as if the winning a series of video-game matches says anything about the Dokdo issue (I wish he lost, just because I'm curious if he would've still waved the sign, or would that somehow make it not okay).
Sorry, MKP, you're a 17 year-old who excels at video-games, why should I take your politics at face value? Do I need to research every political topic a pro-gamer brings up (provided he wins his game, of course) and throw some sort of actual support for a local cause in a region that's on the other side of the planet? Or am I just watching these guys because they spend 8 hours a day playing Starcraft?
After Dimaga wins his next series, maybe he should draft a billboard illustrating Ukraine's conflict with Russia cutting off Ukraine's oil imports due to unpaid fees? That'd be really honorable of him to speak his mind like that. It'd be completely appropriate [/sarcasm]
If Korean pro-gamers want to reach out to the "foreigners" about an issue important to them, I think they could find a better way of doing it then having one of them wave a sign after winning a game against a "foreign" opponent in a tournament whose charity is meant to go to the same people whose government's politics you're opposing.
On April 01 2011 11:41 Azarkon wrote: Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!"
Oh, the horror! How much worse can life be??
Imagine your own country invaded by a foreign military for the sake of power and wealth, playing Starcraft with real people, with the real world. Imagine this country being the fattest nation in the world. Imagine this nation's population going to work every day like mindless drones to pay taxes that will pay for all the horrendous violence. Imagine all these spineless wimps complaining on their forum because the actions of their pathetic, anti-social, anti-freedom, immoral government was brought up to them while they were trying to enjoy their precious esports.
Now stop imagining and go look in a mirror. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I think you need to look in the mirror, because you have the holier-than-thou attitude. "Mindless drones" who *gasp* "pay taxes"? "Anti-social" and "anti-freedom"? Oh noes.
Surely anyone who doesn't want to be bothered with politics while watching a Starcraft match, and is an American, fits all those flattering descriptors you listed.
I love people who talk about how America is full of propaganda and mindlessness, while they "drone" on a list on mindless insults. Look in the mirror, they say.
I personally believe there is no room in e-sports for political comments such as this and snarky immature political pokes that Nick and Dan have been currently making. I think it turns people off big time and is not the place and rather unprofessional directly effecting sponsors or direct causes you have such as the current donations towards japan.
On April 01 2011 15:12 nexitustl1 wrote: I personally believe there is no room in e-sports for political comments such as this and snarky immature political pokes that Nick and Dan have been currently making. I think it turns people off big time and is not the place and rather unprofessional directly effecting sponsors or direct causes you have such as the current donations towards japan.
That's a good point. I'm not a Republican and I usually laugh at the Fox News jokes, but it's not good for business. Tasteless should probably ease off on that. However, his job is to be a "personality" and express himself on a somewhat personal level. It's not an excuse, but I can understand how it might happen that he'd make a political joke now and then. I just hope he does realize it's not a good thing to do.
You don't change people's minds by randomly throwing your politics in their face. It's useless for your politics, and is usually insulting to somebody.
On April 01 2011 15:00 Leporello wrote: No one seems to mention the opponent...
If MKP would've talked about Dokdo in a GSL interview session, I'd be a lot more fine with it. Not only would he not be insulting his opponent, but he could actually talk about the issue.
Instead MKP waves a little sign after winning his series... as if the winning a series of video-game matches says anything about the Dokdo issue (I wish he lost, just because I'm curious if he would've still waved the sign, or would that somehow make it not okay).
Sorry, MKP, you're a 17 year-old who excels at video-games, why should I take your politics at face value? Do I need to research every political topic a pro-gamer brings up (provided he wins his game, of course) and throw some sort of actual support for a local cause in a region that's on the other side of the planet? Or am I just watching these guys because they spend 8 hours a day playing Starcraft?
After Dimaga wins his next series, maybe he should draft a billboard illustrating Ukraine's conflict with Russia cutting off Ukraine's oil imports due to unpaid fees? That'd be really honorable of him to speak his mind like that. It'd be completely appropriate [/sarcasm]
If Korean pro-gamers want to reach out to the "foreigners" about an issue important to them, I think they could find a better way of doing it then having one of them wave a sign after winning a game against a "foreign" opponent in a tournament whose charity is meant to go to the same people whose government's politics you're opposing.
also the fact that Sen isn't from Japan, he's from Taiwan. And dokdo has nothing to do with him, so why do that as a ceremony. (other than the fact to "oh hey foreign community, WE THINK THIS PIECE OF ROCK IS OURS")
Wrong time because of the ongoing crisis in Japan right now but beside that I don't mind at all. I would, however, like to point out for those attacking the SC2 Council that OGN also had similar statements on the screen during BW matches a while back so it's a Korea thing right now. They all want to spread the word about how their (contended) islands are being claimed by Japan. In the end it's just a few seconds so I don't really care & Tastosis mention politics/Fox News (hilarious!) all the time as well yet we don't see threads sprout up for those cases. In my honest opinion, it's not detracting from the viewing experience at all.
On April 01 2011 11:47 Kanil wrote: Hm, this is... curious.
Well, he's welcome to say whatever the hell he wants. This isn't dreadfully offensive, in very poor taste mind, but not like he's cursing or what have you, so I don't see the need for any censorship or punishment.
As a fan, this is pointless crap and I don't want to see it. I'm here to watch StarCraft, after all. Fortunately, we can choose to not be a fan of MKP should any of us be sufficiently annoyed by his pointless crap.
Not MKP's decision. The Starcraft 2 Council in decided on it. Apparently all future progamers were supposed to hold up the sign, but I think MKP was the only one who did.
Why is everyone ignoring this post? MKP was just doing what he was told, so you can't really place too much blame on him, honestly. When you're a professional SC2 player and a higher up organization demands you hold up that sign, you'd probably be inclined to listen (though I don't know why the other Korean players didn't do it)
I would guess that adding things like this just stirs up unnecessary drama and controversy that the game doesn't really need. I would much rather read about a grudge between two players and their individual story line than seeing some "free Tibet" sign being thrown up.
On April 01 2011 15:37 xBillehx wrote: Wrong time because of the ongoing crisis in Japan right now but beside that I don't mind at all.
Timing wise Korean Esports scene began doing their shout-out regarding Dokdo to the world not because Japan just had a natural disaster, but because Japan recently announced they will be officially putting on their 'Dokdo is Japanese territory' argument in their public education curriculum (in Elementary, junior high, etc)
Koreans feel they are taking it too far.
SC progamers have just about as much knowledge and credibility about politics as Mike Tyson, Shaq, or Ronaldinho.
Just because someone's famous, it doesn't mean they have the credibility regarding anything outside of their expertise/profession. They're merely using their fame and access to mass media to freely speak of their opinions. Esports being smaller than other sports doesn't strip them of their right to do what they do in other sports.
On April 01 2011 11:47 Kanil wrote: Hm, this is... curious.
Well, he's welcome to say whatever the hell he wants. This isn't dreadfully offensive, in very poor taste mind, but not like he's cursing or what have you, so I don't see the need for any censorship or punishment.
As a fan, this is pointless crap and I don't want to see it. I'm here to watch StarCraft, after all. Fortunately, we can choose to not be a fan of MKP should any of us be sufficiently annoyed by his pointless crap.
Not MKP's decision. The Starcraft 2 Council in decided on it. Apparently all future progamers were supposed to hold up the sign, but I think MKP was the only one who did.
Why is everyone ignoring this post? MKP was just doing what he was told, so you can't really place too much blame on him, honestly. When you're a professional SC2 player and a higher up organization demands you hold up that sign, you'd probably be inclined to listen (though I don't know why the other Korean players didn't do it)
So instead of MKP expressing his views, he's a 17 year old boy following the political agenda of someone else? That's even worse, if some organization controlling a large amount of players in a region decides to politicize their actions in sporting competitions it'll eventually stain the entire competition in the eyes of the viewers.
On April 01 2011 15:53 Rashid wrote: MarineKing, and SC progamers in general, have just about as much knowledge and credibility about politics as Mike Tyson, Shaq, or Ronaldinho.
On April 01 2011 11:47 Kanil wrote: Hm, this is... curious.
Well, he's welcome to say whatever the hell he wants. This isn't dreadfully offensive, in very poor taste mind, but not like he's cursing or what have you, so I don't see the need for any censorship or punishment.
As a fan, this is pointless crap and I don't want to see it. I'm here to watch StarCraft, after all. Fortunately, we can choose to not be a fan of MKP should any of us be sufficiently annoyed by his pointless crap.
Not MKP's decision. The Starcraft 2 Council in decided on it. Apparently all future progamers were supposed to hold up the sign, but I think MKP was the only one who did.
Why is everyone ignoring this post? MKP was just doing what he was told, so you can't really place too much blame on him, honestly. When you're a professional SC2 player and a higher up organization demands you hold up that sign, you'd probably be inclined to listen (though I don't know why the other Korean players didn't do it)
So instead of MKP expressing his views, he's a 17 year old boy following the political agenda of someone else? That's even worse, if some organization controlling a large amount of players in a region decides to politicize their actions in sporting competitions it'll eventually stain the entire competition in the eyes of the viewers.
You leave out key points. Yes, he's following the political agenda of someone else. That someone else happens to be the Starcraft 2 Council. I don't really know who they are or how much power they have over SC2 pros, but it doesn't sound like you'd want to disobey them (note this is all speculation, if the SC2 council is some lame organization that really has no real power then it's a totally different story)
On April 01 2011 15:53 Rashid wrote: MarineKing, and SC progamers in general, have just about as much knowledge and credibility about politics as Mike Tyson, Shaq, or Ronaldinho.
Who are those people anyways?
The first one is the one who inspired M.Bison in Street Fighter 2, the second one is the guy in Shaq Fu. I don't know who that third one is.
Comming back to the GSL WC, theres a big 'donate to help japan' thing going on, thats good. That alone makes it not the place to throw your opinions about japan in the scene... its just not apropriate...
It's incredibly stupid to think that sports can be unpolitical because this kind of thinking itself is highly political as the discussion in this thread shows us. So in no way should we aim at making (e-)sports a politics-free environment to avoid controversy. I don't like MKP's statement because it's caught in a nationalist narrative but avoiding these kind of discussions is way worse.
On March 31 2011 19:46 sqrt wrote: Recently the Japanese put in the textbook that the island belongs to Japan.
Didn't the Japs also write in their textbooks that they never treated the Korean people like cattle during their occupation of Korea?
-_-'
they cut out the atrocities they commited in China/Japan, toned down WW2 to a "small conflict", and I believe they also cut out Pearl Harbor.
Koreans in general have a general ill-will towards Japan not really because of the occupation, but how Japan is basically refusing to acknowledge that it happened and how they are trying to make it seem less than it really was. IMO Japan should just give up Dokdo, seeing as how they've never really apologized for WW2.
Plus it's not like this is anything new. BW progamers have done the same thing, like Khan vs OGN PL finals where some guy wrote on TT's body that Dokdo is Khan territory, yet nobody really complained about that. I don't really see how MK is at fault for his political ceremony at all.
Also, seriously, why are people so bothered about a sign w/ a political statement on it. Does it really bother you THAT much? And I thought people liked it when progamers aren't "one-dimensional" and have other interests other than "practicing all day long".
On March 31 2011 19:46 sqrt wrote: Recently the Japanese put in the textbook that the island belongs to Japan.
Didn't the Japs also write in their textbooks that they never treated the Korean people like cattle during their occupation of Korea?
-_-'
they cut out the atrocities they commited in China/Japan, toned down WW2 to a "small conflict", and I believe they also cut out Pearl Harbor.
Koreans in general have a general ill-will towards Japan not really because of the occupation, but how Japan is basically refusing to acknowledge that it happened and how they are trying to make it seem less than it really was. IMO Japan should just give up Dokdo, seeing as how they've never really apologized for WW2.
Plus it's not like this is anything new. BW progamers have done the same thing, like Khan vs OGN PL finals where some guy wrote on TT's body that Dokdo is Khan territory, yet nobody really complained about that. I don't really see how MK is at fault for his political ceremony at all.
Also, seriously, why are people so bothered about a sign w/ a political statement on it. Does it really bother you THAT much? And I thought people liked it when progamers aren't "one-dimensional" and have other interests other than "practicing all day long".
I went into the MarineKing fanclub thread and read that he did a controversial ceremony. I was a bit worried about what it was. When I read this in this thread I kind of relaxed and thought "was that all?" I don't see any problems with this, especially regarding the Japanese arrogance on this issue. Some people say that the timing is bad. How can the timing be better than the moment the book is published? Because of the tragic catastrophe? Those issues are not related and the South Koreans are already showing their support for the victims.
Personal opinion is no, absolutely not. If you want esports to be taken seriously, then this kind of show should be kept out of it. Would it be right to make this kind of statement in a normal sport? Of course not. Think about the black power salute at the '68 Olympics - was that acceptable? Not to the US Athletics group.
I also don't think people in the US know about the strength of feeling held in Korea and Japan about these islands. This isn't something that can be ignored, it's not a little statement, a bit of a feeling. It's a nationalistic statement about disputed territory claimed by another country. What is far more worrying is the suggestion this was ordered to a number of Korean players - that doesn't worry you, that a group of players are being told to support a nationalistic agenda? Let's use an example a little more familiar - if he was Chinese and wrote 'Tibet is Chinese', would that be ok? How about if he was Palestinian, and had written 'Hamas forever, US is evil'. Appropriate for a sport? Of course not. Appropriate for an e-sport? Definitely not. A bit of an extreme example, but it's similar.
As a caveat, I don't know who is in the right about the islands here - both countries seem to have decent claims to them. But the notion that Japan is downplaying things in their history books and fudging facts is, of course, deplorable and they should stop - things need to be studied by kids, especially when it doesn't reflect well on their country. It's the only way to stop it happening again. But saying that's a reason why Japan should lose the islands? C'mon, guys, that's a child's argument and an entirely different issue.
On April 01 2011 10:51 Hatsu wrote: Newsflash: the tournament was not done for Japan as a charity event -_-
but all the streams and VoDs are free and they are taking donations for the Japanese Red Cross...
Sure thing, but for all we know they might have been free to begin with. Also, as stated, MKP's message indeed gains strength because of the context: he is making his statement while playing in a tournament that encourages donations for Japan. I also find it ridiculous to read claims such as "Also finish college first as well before venting your political opinion on TV, nobody is interested in the political opinions of someone who is not even that experienced and educated in life". Now you need a college degree to voice your opinion?
no, I'm pretty sure they explicitly stated that they made it free and were accepting donations specifically because of Japan.
What they stated is irrelevant. We will never know, really. The point I am making is that it was not a charity event.
what are you talking about? Why would they have been free to begin with? Has ANY sc2 gom league been free so far?
And no, you do NOT need a college degree to voice your opinion, but the problem is that this is not MKP's opinion, he has been playing scbw and sc2 pretty much all of his life, all of his opinions are based off what his friends, hyungs, relatives tell him.
also this is just my opinion, which is very possible of being wrong.
I am just saying that is not beyond the realm of possibility that they never intended for customers to pay for this. From a business perspective, the whole Japan thing is basically just a marketing endeavour. If they planned to make customers pay for this, they are giving up subscription money in exchange for a marketing gain, therefore the higher the amount of viewers expected the lower the chances that this is the case.
Regarding MKP awareness: do not take his knowledge of the situation lightly. Yes, all he knows is from friends, relatives, media and books but so is true for the overwhelming majority of people. I know for a fact that, at the age of 16 and while not really studying hard at all, I was more politically/historically aware than many of the very educated adults I know now. So perhaps MKP actually knows and cares a lot about this. Again, we will never know, but I would rather not speculate too much and keep an open mind.
On April 01 2011 15:53 Rashid wrote: MarineKing, and SC progamers in general, have just about as much knowledge and credibility about politics as Mike Tyson, Shaq, or Ronaldinho.
Who are those people anyways?
The first one is the one who inspired M.Bison in Street Fighter 2, the second one is the guy in Shaq Fu. I don't know who that third one is.
Ronaldinho is a character in a football video game!
I believe all that should be said, and shouldn't be said about this topic has already been exhausted. Too much hate and this is becoming hate war among strangers already. All heat, no light. Arguments, no matter how intense, educated by respect and facts are always welcome. But the replies here are not only impertinent, they are also plain ignorant.
I do not see how SC2, esports, and TL as a community hopes to benefit or be enlightened by comments like this. Please, please close. Thanks.
Peace to Japan. Our prayers with you in this difficult time.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
Like it or not, TL is a basically "Korean" forum. Whether educated or not, most of TL will take the Korean side of any random story. I am a graduate of one of the most prestigious Asian Studies programs in the world and know more about this issue than most here would ever care about.
But!!!
That does not mean there is anything to be gained by discussing such things here. Convincing anyone besides the governments of Korea and Japan to work this out (I know this is far, far down the list of Shit To Deal With Soon) is an exercise in frustration, not to mention irrelevant.
There is not going to be serious international pressure for either side to fix things, either. MKP is an idiot because of his choice of venue and likely ill-informed. The internet is full of the babbling of idiots without this gesture inciting more random nonsense talk (mentioning the Japanese textbook thing as an excuse is lulz).
I am not the thread police here but if I were this would be closed.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
as for op.
free speech. i think they should be able to say whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross the line, like "down with the jews" or "rebbecca black for president". actually, the latter will be awesome. dispute isn't like racism or hatred or religion in my opinion.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
Well said, Though Japan is a good country now, I personally love J-Pop and d Anime, and alot of the Japanese Culture, Time has passed, we can be friends again but, people shouldn't forget about what was done to them in the past. No matter how much time passes the sins won't be washed away. It's just how it is. When people from other countries kill a bunch of your people, It dishonors the dead when you just forget it ever happened
Ok Chinese and Koreans can hate Japanese for what they've done in the PAST. But Japanese are starting to hate Chinese and Koreans for what they're doing RIGHT NOW. They come to Japan and commit alot of crime such as stealing and murdering people. Koreans who live and use japanese name are the ones that are worst. They are the one who decided to stay in japan after the ww2, yet they pretend like they were forced to stay. Therefore they act like they're victims, and they ask for alot of special privileges most japanese don't even know.
Yes most Japanese don't know about them. Why? Because they hide them selves from being known. When those Koreans-live-in-Japan commit crime, They use Japanese name. So people think it was Japanese criminal, not Korean. Bull shit. Remember recently, Chinese ship rammed into Japanese ship. Remember? First Chinese pretended like they were victims, because media is so corrupted and don't even show truth because they think "japan-china relationship is more important". But because of one brave man, now we all know chinese were the aggressors.
Just like these, despite how much rotten japanese government tries to hide truth. People started knowing so many crimes done by both Chinese and Korean people in past so many years. Or should I say ever since ww2 ended. People from those countries feel so justified doing these crimes on japanese, because of something they weren't even born at time.
Sins will be never gone. Sure if you didn't fight war but still think you have all the rights to accuse japan, prepare to take accuse from japanese for what your people been doing too. In your theory, you can not refuse just because crimes were done by someone you don't even know.
On April 02 2011 13:18 shinku) wrote: Ok Chinese and Koreans can hate Japanese for what they've done in the PAST. But Japanese are starting to hate Chinese and Koreans for what they're doing RIGHT NOW. They come to Japan and commit alot of crime such as stealing and murdering people. Koreans who live and use japanese name are the ones that are worst. They are the one who decided to stay in japan after the ww2, yet they pretend like they were forced to stay. Therefore they act like they're victims, and they ask for alot of special privileges most japanese don't even know.
Yes most Japanese don't know about them. Why? Because they hide them selves from being known. When those Koreans-live-in-Japan commit crime, They use Japanese name. So people think it was Japanese criminal, not Korean. Bull shit. Remember recently, Chinese ship rammed into Japanese ship. Remember? First Chinese pretended like they were victims, because media is so corrupted and don't even show truth because they think "japan-china relationship is more important". But because of one brave man, now we all know chinese were the aggressors.
Just like these, despite how much rotten japanese government tries to hide truth. People started knowing so many crimes done by both Chinese and Korean people in past so many years. Or should I say ever since ww2 ended. People from those countries feel so justified doing these crimes on japanese, because of something they weren't even born at time.
Sins will be never gone. Sure if you didn't fight war but still think you have all the rights to accuse japan, prepare to take accuse from japanese for what your people been doing too. In your theory, you can not refuse just because crimes were done by someone you don't even know.
generalizing, stereotyping, story from one side of the view. ignorance, nationalism, blindness to human nature were the only things i could understand from what you wrote.
i hope one day you realize that everything and everyone has an ugly side. i can nitpick every little crap against japanese and the same you can do for koreans. there is no need to go there, its a retarded argument and should only be done for shits and giggles - with friends.
if you want to display displeasure in politics, go hold up a sign.
if you want to display displeasure in politics, go hold up a sign.
That's what you Koreans been doing it isn't it? In soccer scene. In baseball scene(WBC) in every other scenes Koreans bring up retarded politics signs when it has no place to.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
as for op.
free speech. i think they should be able to say whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross the line, like "down with the jews" or "rebbecca black for president". actually, the latter will be awesome. dispute isn't like racism or hatred or religion in my opinion.
But you can't make specific alterations that say "down with the jews" is wrong, because what if someone says "the jews should go down", is that suddenly legal?
In practicality a change to the freedom of speech would be made that outlaws "undesired" speech. At that point you now have the loophole needed to bring freedom of speech down, and a future government could easily call your criticism of them "undesired".
You cannot limit free speech. The only cap you can place on it is when a person directly calls for violence "i want you to go and kill jews" for example. Even then it has to be direct call to violence, not a semi-call to violence because again, with such a rule in place you can start linking everything to violence and say that it's illegal speech.
Personally i prefer if people can say "down with the jews" because atleast then i know i don't want anything to do with that person.
I think politics has a place in all sports, but like with most messages i don't enjoy the in-your-face messages such as these.
In my personal opinion statements such as this are utterly stupid. They only encourage intolerance, hatred and other animositys.
Yes Players should make political statements if they encourage, tolerance, peace, environmentals and other "good" things.
WTF is dorky island anyway ? Do people even live on these rocks and if no, these ilands should belong to no one, japans and koreans only QQ bout them ?
lol @ when I saw the *islands* picture.
Everyone makeing territorial claims to these rocks is nuts. USA, should nuke it and the island is gone and QQ is gone ^^
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
as for op.
free speech. i think they should be able to say whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross the line, like "down with the jews" or "rebbecca black for president". actually, the latter will be awesome. dispute isn't like racism or hatred or religion in my opinion.
But you can't make specific alterations that say "down with the jews" is wrong, because what if someone says "the jews should go down", is that suddenly legal?
In practicality a change to the freedom of speech would be made that outlaws "undesired" speech. At that point you now have the loophole needed to bring freedom of speech down, and a future government could easily call your criticism of them "undesired".
You cannot limit free speech. The only cap you can place on it is when a person directly calls for violence "i want you to go and kill jews" for example. Even then it has to be direct call to violence, not a semi-call to violence because again, with such a rule in place you can start linking everything to violence and say that it's illegal speech.
Personally i prefer if people can say "down with the jews" because atleast then i know i don't want anything to do with that person.
I think politics has a place in all sports, but like with most messages i don't enjoy the in-your-face messages such as these.
i was saying that in a very general sense. just like the poll shows, some will agree and some will disagree. since there will be people doing it for right or wrong reasons, just be civil about it.
if you want to display displeasure in politics, go hold up a sign.
That's what you Koreans been doing it isn't it? In soccer scene. In baseball scene(WBC) in every other scenes Koreans bring up retarded politics signs when it has no place to.
stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
as for op.
free speech. i think they should be able to say whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross the line, like "down with the jews" or "rebbecca black for president". actually, the latter will be awesome. dispute isn't like racism or hatred or religion in my opinion.
What someone did 60 years ago shouldn't really play into anything. Japan then, and Japan now are completely separate entities, by holding them responsible for things well into their past, you're keeping the hatred going.
EDIT: I think I may as well state that I have some experience dealing with this. My family is Jewish (my grandma's surname was even Klein) during Germany's occupation of the Netherlands. My family escaped because three of my grandma's siblings served in the SS to try and hide them. I even own an Iron Cross, that has been passed down after those siblings killed themselves because they couldn't deal with what they had done. I don't harbor ANY ill will, or resentment for German people at all. I've even had intellectual debates with neo-nazi's. What's been done in the past should stay there.
On April 01 2011 11:26 Oxymoron wrote: Have any of you ever considered that Korea feels "betrayed" by Japan's claim that the islands belong to them? They have donated an enormous amount to money to Japan for the recent earthquakes, only to have Japanese textbooks claim their territory in return.
Also, I noticed that the sign is in English, which leads me to believe that the message as aimed not towards Korea or Japan, but to the rest of the world. This is a world championship tournament after all, and I assume his goal was to spread awareness of this issue. Judging by this thread, MKP had been quite successful. Good job.
Do you know how much money Japan gave to Korea through ODA? That's the huge reason why Korea could have built modern country.(That's also the reason why China could build up military to match up against USA and now being problematic lol) Also do you know how much Japan helped Korea when they were in economic crisis? Koreans don't know them. Or hide them to citizens. Because they're so arrogant and ignorant so they can never admit or accept they have been helped by Japan for so many years in so many ways. Instead of being thankful they teach kids to hate Japanese. It's in their identity. They can NEVER admit that they're helped by Japan to build the country they have right now.
Korea feels "betrayed"? No it's completely other way around.
i'm sorry, is this guy troll? does he even know what japan did pre ww2 in asia? wtf????
past is past. forgive but never forget.
as for op.
free speech. i think they should be able to say whatever they want as long as it doesn't cross the line, like "down with the jews" or "rebbecca black for president". actually, the latter will be awesome. dispute isn't like racism or hatred or religion in my opinion.
What someone did 60 years ago shouldn't really play into anything. Japan then, and Japan now are completely separate entities, by holding them responsible for things well into their past, you're keeping the hatred going.
Well you know the part about holding them responsible, Japan has been pretty bad when it comes to taking responsibilities for their action or even admitting their actions during WW2 in Asia. so if they aren't willing to take an ounce of responsibility it's difficult to just forget about it. since the war really did serious damage to Korea and China.
On March 31 2011 19:51 Carras wrote: yes,why not, hes just expressing his thougths .. or do u just want a little robot who can play a game ?
Nobody said he can't have an opinion, but expressing them on a television show about a game which holds no relevance to SC2 is a bit out of order. Maybe if you stopped derping and using your own extreme wording to make it seem like MKP should be completely stripped of his personality then maybe you'd realise how stupid what you said is.
stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one.
That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied?
It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan.
My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better.
Most of us live in democracies, and stating our opinion is our duty. This does especially include popular people because they are often role models of some sort.
stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one.
That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied?
It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan.
My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better.
I feel that professional gamers, just like professional athletes are allowed to have a political opinion, and should be allowed to express it in public, but not at a sports/game/whatever event where they show up to 'work'. While in the booth their job is to play the game and it should not be mingled with expressing political views. We don't want Kobe Bryant, after a huge dunk in the 4th quarter, to shout at the crowd "don't forget to vote republican"; we don't want progamers after winning a set to wave around signs with their political views. Keep it separated from the game.
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL? I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind. "독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact.
The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it.
Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. That's your opinion and I can respect that but your whole "I hope" hypothetical situation is just brain-meltingly dumb, you do realize what would happen right?
stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one.
That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied?
It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan.
My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better.
I hope he's trolling... I mean I don't want ppl to think Japanese ppl are like this...
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL? I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind. "독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact .
The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it.
Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. But I don't understand how your hypothetical situation helps either.
Politics and Sports don't belong together. Why should those two be related? What do these political statements add to the game, other than potential polarization? Why potentially polarize the audience, why use it as a media to state political things?
Of course he can do whatever the fuck he wants because there aren't any rules set but it's in terribly poor taste. But the whole thing is backed by this bullshit SC2 council nonsense. Why are they getting into political issues? Why should they have opinions on political matters? They're here to play a game not to start a political debate.
I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it -- I've never seen it but I'd be equally as angry if they did something like that.
How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"? The point is my hypothetical isn't supposed to "help" the situation in any sort of way. The point is that there will be huge outrage if something like that happens from Korea and honestly because you had a precedence where you allowed one Progamer to do it you should allow the other also, or are we going to discriminate based on political view now? Or since Korean SC2 council "supports" this, will they try and punish the other player? The point is allowing politics into a "competitive sport" is nonsense and it has no place in it and it will only complicate things.
On April 01 2011 23:29 Sanctimonius wrote: Personal opinion is no, absolutely not. If you want esports to be taken seriously, then this kind of show should be kept out of it. Would it be right to make this kind of statement in a normal sport? Of course not. Think about the black power salute at the '68 Olympics - was that acceptable? Not to the US Athletics group.
Are you kidding me? This is a historic moment, something that people remember. Yes, it created controversy. But if we look at it now, was it really a bad move or something quite comprehensible in the context of that time? It's very naive to think sports can be unpolitical. This kind of thinking is part of a political culture I can't really support and that I don't want e-sports to a part of. We shouldn't always look at traditional sports and mimic them because that won't work anyway.
On April 02 2011 18:29 Milkis wrote:I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
Again it's very naive to think that. Something can be unpolitical only by the absence of politics but this means that you have to keep politics out (regulations) which is a political questionable move. There are plenty of examples why sports are not unrelated to politics and saying that pro gamers shouldn't touch that subject because we want to avoid controversy is highly political in itself. It's like saying "hey we wanna make money here keep the controversy out" but the controversy is always there and always will be. Also people discuss the statement but do they stop watching GSL? I don't think so.
I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
On April 02 2011 18:55 pwei wrote: I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
I think I can count 4 non sequiturs in there.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
You then proceed to double down on your somewhat bizarre argument by suggesting that MKP is an ignorant naive lout. Alas, if only smugness was a saleable commodity...
Stones, glass houses, some assembly required.
FWIW, I have no problem with MKP or anyone showing their political views in public. Of course, that comes rightfully with criticism. Said criticism should center on content, not venue.
On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote: I do know the story behind it. I mean, I'm Korean and I keep up with the news. Yes, it should be worth protesting over. But protesting it during a middle of the match? Why would you do that, especially when all you're trying to do is buy in foreign sympathy? Why cheapen esports on the way of doing so? It's such a bad move and I think it's a terrible, terrible move to turn esports into a place of protest.
I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins. It's the same fucking thing after all and that is the precedence you are setting when you allow this shit.
Where else does MKP have an audience besides the GSL? I don't understand how it "cheapens" e-sports when he is speaking his mind. "독도 is Korean territory" is on OGN/MBC as well I can't remember which one (but I saw it on the corner of the screen) as well. Just a random fact .
The whole "holding up a sign after a match" thing isn't new to gaming. His sign I guess is considered political and many people might be sensitive/offended to this. But realistically, he can say whatever the fuck he wants (within reasonable limits ofc), unless the PD/managers/coaches/staff say something about it.
Your last comment in all honesty is one of the most childish and ignorant comments I've read today. It is my understand that you don't like the precedent being set allowing stuff like this. But I don't understand how your hypothetical situation helps either.
Politics and Sports don't belong together. Why should those two be related? What do these political statements add to the game, other than potential polarization? Why potentially polarize the audience, why use it as a media to state political things?
Of course he can do whatever the fuck he wants because there aren't any rules set but it's in terribly poor taste. But the whole thing is backed by this bullshit SC2 council nonsense. Why are they getting into political issues? Why should they have opinions on political matters? They're here to play a game not to start a political debate.
I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it -- I've never seen it but I'd be equally as angry if they did something like that.
How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"? The point is my hypothetical isn't supposed to "help" the situation in any sort of way. The point is that there will be huge outrage if something like that happens from Korea and honestly because you had a precedence where you allowed one Progamer to do it you should allow the other also, or are we going to discriminate based on political view now? Or since Korean SC2 council "supports" this, will they try and punish the other player? The point is allowing politics into a "competitive sport" is nonsense and it has no place in it and it will only complicate things.
First off I'd like to state, I don't believe politics and sports should belong together.
But unfortunately it isn't the case in most (if not all major professional sports leagues), there surely is a presence of background politics. Just gotta learn to deal with it unless you feel so strongly against it, and will take matters into your hands do something about it.
"Why should those two be related?" I don't know why you are asking this, I don't think myself nor anybody else here is in a position to answer this. Ask the GomTV PD? Or better yet, e-mail the executives who authorized the whole thing. He (if he does choose to respond) will probably give you a semi-nationalistic answer that you may choose to regard as bullshit. But what's going to change?
"Why use it as a media to state political things" Because they can. It is in the interest of the Korean government to secure and fortify the notion of "독도는 우리땅". Everybody knows the conglomerates and politicians work hand-in-hand, why not use GSL to direct a message to a huge foreign audience?
I don't know of OGN/MBC doing it Top right corner sometimes flashing small box thing if I recall correctly.
How is my last statement "ignorant" in any way? How is it "childish"? As I have stated before I fully understand your point on setting precedent and I don't believe that is debatable because you are entitled to your opinion. But just read over what you've said, here: "I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins." I don't wanna flame or go over literally and explain why it was bad on many different levels, even if your intention was to prove a point. If you don't find it the least bit childish and ignorant, I regret you feel this way.
On April 02 2011 18:55 pwei wrote: I'm not sure if politics belongs, but this action certainly seems like biting the hand that feeds you. I lost a ton of respect for MKP. If he really felt this way, he should have protested by refusing to participate in the tournament. Instead he's being an ungrateful whelp.
But I suppose given the circumstances (youth, dropping out from school, playing video games all day) we shouldn't really be surprised.
Didn't realize fascism was popular among starcraft 2 enthusiasts.
Dokdo IS Korean Territory. MKP telling it like it is.
People that say MKP shouldn't have caused such a controversy: Charity for tragedy is completely different from making claims to a land that rightfully belongs to Korea.
It's like, I see a guy who's mom has died. Terrible. Does it mean that the Starcraft CD he took from my room is his now? NO
독도는 한국땅!!
On April 02 2011 13:18 shinku) wrote: Ok Chinese and Koreans can hate Japanese for what they've done in the PAST. But Japanese are starting to hate Chinese and Koreans for what they're doing RIGHT NOW. They come to Japan and commit alot of crime such as stealing and murdering people. Koreans who live and use japanese name are the ones that are worst. They are the one who decided to stay in japan after the ww2, yet they pretend like they were forced to stay. Therefore they act like they're victims, and they ask for alot of special privileges most japanese don't even know.
Yes most Japanese don't know about them. Why? Because they hide them selves from being known. When those Koreans-live-in-Japan commit crime, They use Japanese name. So people think it was Japanese criminal, not Korean. Bull shit. Remember recently, Chinese ship rammed into Japanese ship. Remember? First Chinese pretended like they were victims, because media is so corrupted and don't even show truth because they think "japan-china relationship is more important". But because of one brave man, now we all know chinese were the aggressors.
Just like these, despite how much rotten japanese government tries to hide truth. People started knowing so many crimes done by both Chinese and Korean people in past so many years. Or should I say ever since ww2 ended. People from those countries feel so justified doing these crimes on japanese, because of something they weren't even born at time.
Sins will be never gone. Sure if you didn't fight war but still think you have all the rights to accuse japan, prepare to take accuse from japanese for what your people been doing too. In your theory, you can not refuse just because crimes were done by someone you don't even know.
User was warned for this post
Yea bro, raping korean women and shit during ww2 was totally cool on Japan's part. Yeah. Okay bro. Keep talking you fucking faggot
Apparently you can't be thankful for Korea extending a helping hand, then Japan goes around the corner and says in textbooks, Takeshima is ours!!! It's called Dokdo, and it's Korean territory.
stop saying "you", that was my point. not all koreans are alike. just like not all japanese are alike. you for example, is showing a bad example of a japanese, if you are one.
That's funny. Then whats good example of japanese? Japanese that appologize about something they aren't responsible nor even part of? Japanese that forgive every korean criminals because of something that was done before either aggressor nor victim were born? If every japanese apologize about ww2 when they meet any koreans do your ego feel satisfied?
It's so disgusting how some of korean's mind sets are when it comes to history. Very very disgusting. They think every bad thing they do/say on japanese is justified because of something they weren't even part of. And blind themselves purposely from the help they recieved from japan.
My stance, I don't even wanna brag nor ask how much koreans should be thankful. Nor do I take any historical bullshit from koreans. I DON'T CARE ALL KOREANS STFU. But koreans keep it going why? Because they want more money and they want something to hate on just so they feel better.
User was temp banned for this post.
I don't think you are japanese lol I think I know where you from but I don't want to embarass you
I know you are pissing your pants since some korean guy took your girl friend or beat you badly in starcraft but the stuff you wrote is pure fantasy.
Koreans have one of the lowest crime rate in Japan. It's even lower than Japanese themselves. Why do you think some of the richest guys in Japan are ethnically Korean? I'm pretty sure they didn't rob their way up there. Despite being a tiny minority and often being discriminated, they worked their ass off. That's how!
As far as who helped who, it goes both ways and it has been that way since the birth of those two countries. There were period where they help each other and period where they just beat each other up. It is what it is, hate and love relationship. Based on recent survey and polls, they actually like each other more. It's just the loud ones are the one that hate.
As for Dokdo and what MKP said, whether it was appropriate or not is debatable but he made a true statement. Dokdo is Korean territory just like hawaii is american territory. I don't think he helped by holding up that sign since it does seems like it's a disputed island when it really isn't it.
It's like I'm wearing my awesome autographed Kobe bryant jersey and some guy is telling everyone how that jersey is actually his when it really isn't. What is he going to do? Steal the jersey? Koreans are no longer weaklings like they were 60 years ago. All their weapons are modernized and like Japan they are capable of building a nuclear weapon less than a year. There isn't anything Japan can do to take that island unless they declare a war which won't ever happen.
Humans are so dumb and constrained its amazing. When du they beginn to realize that there is no Japan no Korea and therefore no Japanese and no Koreans. These are only constructs in minds of lower persons who clinge to some framework and hold on because they cant see the wold as it is. What is a country ? Another dumb construct, a game in the minds of so many and yet they fail to realize that this is only a stupid game invented by those who benefit from it and the other humans are playing it because they believe it to be real and force themselves and others to do so.
Please open your mind and see the things as what they really are and not as what you are told. And beginn to learn history, but the correct way, so that it wont repeat itself.
As for me it stands to reason that this boy wanted attention, not for any cause, but for himself.
Although worded poorly, I kind of see where shinku) is coming from. Both countries seem to have a very.. rigid mindset when it comes to history.
Of course, my personal experiences are very limited in comparison to others - the hate seemed to me to be very onesided. During my stay in Japan (~1½ year), not once did I hear anyone talk about Korea in a way that was blatantly negative. Two weeks in South Korea and the subject was pretty common.
A friend of mine who studied in Seoul during my time abroad told me that her impression was that cussing over Japan was as normal as talking about the weather.
(Might just have been us hanging around with completely different crowds, thus screwing impressions)
The emperor of Japan even formally apologised for the atrocities that South Korea was exposed to during WW2, and while that certainly doesn't make all fine and dandy - didn't like the next prime minister demand that they apologise again? Or similar. In a japanese point of view, it'd seem like Korea just demands more for crimes that were comitted by their grandparents. I'd be frustrated too :>
What happened was terrible and shouldn't be forgotten, so I think the rage is justified when "incidents" like when official-ish school books change the wordings to make it look like Japan is less faulty. The Dokdo case seems to be yet another of these, but I'm not updated on the matter enough to judge.
TLDR: I don't mind having players express political statements every now and then, but in my head this entire ordeal feels more like hate mongering. We need moar love!
Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
On April 02 2011 20:40 Holy_AT wrote: Humans are so dumb and constrained its amazing. When du they beginn to realize that there is no Japan no Korea and therefore no Japanese and no Koreans. These are only constructs in minds of lower persons who clinge to some framework and hold on because they cant see the wold as it is. What is a country ? Another dumb construct, a game in the minds of so many and yet they fail to realize that this is only a stupid game invented by those who benefit from it and the other humans are playing it because they believe it to be real and force themselves and others to do so.
Please open your mind and see the things as what they really are and not as what you are told. And beginn to learn history, but the correct way, so that it wont repeat itself.
As for me it stands to reason that this boy wanted attention, not for any cause, but for himself.
Unless you can let your neighbour take piece of land (home) from you and do not feel negatively, you are not in position to judge 'humans'. I can see that you are imagining a future where everyone is one, equal, sharing, caring and trusting each other but that won't happen unless it starts with you. However it can't and does not start with you no matter how high and mighty you are because of your instinct won't let someone take stuff away from you, it's the way 'humans' have evolved and pretty much any living thing has evolved. Humans are so constrained, I agree but that is because we are constrained by our instincts not intelligence. Thus we have political debates and try to stimulate our minds to fight our natural instincts, not going off to some hypothetical place in our minds where everyone is all happy and dandy.
Of course, this does mean I encourage politics in public (sports). It gets people thinking about the problem, debating and constructing arguments. Will be solve the problem? Well talking about the problem is always a good start. :D
not going off to some hypothetical place in our minds where everyone is all happy and dandy.
That is not what I am doing that is what 95% of people are doing, because otherwise there would be an outcry because of injustice, intolerance but as long as everyone has there TV and beer, they are happy ....
I am the other. I am not blinded by greed in that way people are today ... There are people politicans, managers and others who have more then enough to live, better than everyone else and yet they still want more. This is a reson for failure. Someone wants, .... money ?... land ? .... power ?..... and they want it so badly they ignore values and ethics. We want money ? Well shit on safty regulations and cut corners, to bad it was done in an atomic power plant ....
People dont realize what they are doing, neither am I to a ful extent, but what I want to do are good things and thats what I am missing today.
On April 02 2011 21:35 Sanctimonius wrote: Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE fishing territory. Like ridiculously huge.
On April 02 2011 21:35 Sanctimonius wrote: Agreed with Jitensha (nice name btw... :D) - where's the love?
This is why statements like this don't belong in sports or esports, and if you want esports to be taken as seriously you need to be as strict. Korea says the islands are theirs. Fair enough. Rightwing Japanese political groups (from personal experience the average Japanese person doesn't particularly care about them either) say the islands are Japanese - fair enough again. I don't really care, and as people can plainly see they are two rocks in the middle of nowhere with little resources, so I can't really see why they are getting so worked up over them. So why bring it into Starcraft, which has nothing to do with politics? It was unnecessary, simple as.
I agree that it was unnecessary, but I don't think it should be permitted. I know that it is common for major sports but cutting down freedom of speech is never a good thing.
It's fine if sports become politicized? I don't like it, but does it really matter?
If you're sensitive enough to stop watching a sport because you feel insulted about a particular matter....then that's your fault and not someone else's.
On April 02 2011 22:26 Zergneedsfood wrote: It's fine if sports become politicized? I don't like it, but does it really matter?
If you're sensitive enough to stop watching a sport because you feel insulted about a particular matter....then that's your fault and not someone else's.
This is a narrow mindset. Most people here has no problem with it ourself, but we are here looking out for ESport.
Just because this particular issue not big enough to polarize community doesn't mean it won't in the future. Imagine someone bring up gay rights, gun politics into MLG.
Edit: If you want to talk about something, there are proper channels and places to do it. Otherwise it creates a battlefield that does not lead to anything. It's same as talking about balance issue in a live report thread.
marineking is the player in question. he's the one in the booth. so however he wants to speak his mind, and whatever ideas he wishes to express he may. the poll "do politics belong in esports" is a harsh generalization of a simple message one of the pros wanted to convey. you cant sensor that. because if politics dont belong in esports then what else doesnt. where do you draw the line of what belongs and what doesnt?
On April 02 2011 23:15 Sporadic44 wrote: marineking is the player in question. he's the one in the booth. so however he wants to speak his mind, and whatever ideas he wishes to express he may. the poll "do politics belong in esports" is a harsh generalization of a simple message one of the pros wanted to convey. you cant sensor that. because if politics dont belong in esports then what else doesnt. where do you draw the line of what belongs and what doesnt?
In good taste, and what won't possibly cause an international scandal.
Honestly I think those kinds of things shouldn't be allowed on tv. Imagine Flash or Jaedong doing that. MKP should be reprimended for that. I'm not saying he can't have any beef with Japan knowing a little about their history, but at a time like this when GOM is trying to unify people to help Japan out after the earthquake he can cause a rift, a scandal instead. Really stupid move on his part.
If marineking want to use his personal fame he could still express his view in his tweets, website, blog whatever, because people are there to hear his thoughts.
I think it's pretty obvious to draw the line because it's off topic to what the event is about, watching players compete in Starcraft 2.
On April 02 2011 23:30 Sporadic44 wrote: hahahahaha sorry i believe in freedom of speech and expressing your mind regardless of what people think
I think you misunderstood the meaning if freedom of speech greatly. His idea isn't censored in anyway or form, it's just in the wrong place and the wrong time.
Imagining you're an audience in large conference, you disagree with what the guy says, you immediately jump up and express your opinion by cutting him off, security haul you away. Do you think that violate your freedom of speech?
Case 2: You're in a class room, stood up yelling out nonsense, teacher told you to get out, can you defend your self with freedom of speech there? You're expressing your mind regardless of what people think.
I don't know why you are asking this, I don't think myself nor anybody else here is in a position to answer this. Ask the GomTV PD? Or better yet, e-mail the executives who authorized the whole thing. He (if he does choose to respond) will probably give you a semi-nationalistic answer that you may choose to regard as bullshit. But what's going to change?
The questions were obviously rhetorical.
Because they can. It is in the interest of the Korean government to secure and fortify the notion of "독도는 우리땅". Everybody knows the conglomerates and politicians work hand-in-hand, why not use GSL to direct a message to a huge foreign audience?
Yes, why don't we force every Korean outside of Korea to hold signs that says Dokdo is Korean in wherever they are while at it? The point is, the "why not use X to direct a message" should be more like "should we". It's not even the government doing this, but some SC2 council? That was supposed to replace KeSPA? That is called bullshit.
Top right corner sometimes flashing small box thing if I recall correctly.
How certain are you that is OGN and MBC and not some random afreeca streamer?
As I have stated before I fully understand your point on setting precedent and I don't believe that is debatable because you are entitled to your opinion. But just read over what you've said, here: "I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins." I don't wanna flame or go over literally and explain why it was bad on many different levels, even if your intention was to prove a point. If you don't find it the least bit childish and ignorant, I regret you feel this way.
So your response is "Oh man, you're a terrible person if you don't see why it's ignorant and childish?"
How about I rephrase. I hope the next team that wins the Super Bowl all holds up a sign that says "Abortion is murder" after the game because the team's owner would fire them if they did not.
You are clearly overintepreting what I mean by "I hope X does Y" so whatever. My point is to be extreme so that the point is obvious so if you think it's childish or anyway then go nuts about it, I guess.
On April 01 2011 15:00 Leporello wrote: No one seems to mention the opponent...
Sorry, MKP, you're a 17 year-old who excels at video-games, why should I take your politics at face value? Do I need to research every political topic a pro-gamer brings up (provided he wins his game, of course) and throw some sort of actual support for a local cause in a region that's on the other side of the planet? Or am I just watching these guys because they spend 8 hours a day playing Starcraft?
No one is asking you to do research and no one is asking you to take it at face value. If you don't want to bother with his message then leave it be, simple as that.
Top right corner sometimes flashing small box thing if I recall correctly.
How certain are you that is OGN and MBC and not some random afreeca streamer?
GTR's stream, IIRC, he got this subscription to watch all korean channels online, so no, its not some random afreeca streamer, but in fact from the actual channel. It always seemed as if koreans get carried away when it comes to nationalism.
GTR's stream, IIRC, he got this subscription to watch all korean channels online, so no, its not some random afreeca streamer, but in fact from the actual channel. It always seemed as if koreans get carried away when it comes to nationalism.
How recent was this? If it's recent then it's def not OGN/MBC doing it but the streamers since the subscription stopped working a few weeks ago
I don't know why you are asking this, I don't think myself nor anybody else here is in a position to answer this. Ask the GomTV PD? Or better yet, e-mail the executives who authorized the whole thing. He (if he does choose to respond) will probably give you a semi-nationalistic answer that you may choose to regard as bullshit. But what's going to change?
Because they can. It is in the interest of the Korean government to secure and fortify the notion of "독도는 우리땅". Everybody knows the conglomerates and politicians work hand-in-hand, why not use GSL to direct a message to a huge foreign audience?
Yes, why don't we force every Korean outside of Korea to hold signs that says Dokdo is Korean in wherever they are while at it? The point is, the "why not use X to direct a message" should be more like "should we". It's not even the government doing this, but some SC2 council? That was supposed to replace KeSPA? That is called bullshit.
As I have stated before I fully understand your point on setting precedent and I don't believe that is debatable because you are entitled to your opinion. But just read over what you've said, here: "I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins." I don't wanna flame or go over literally and explain why it was bad on many different levels, even if your intention was to prove a point. If you don't find it the least bit childish and ignorant, I regret you feel this way.
So your response is "Oh man, you're a terrible person if you don't see why it's ignorant and childish?"
How about I rephrase. I hope the next team that wins the Super Bowl all holds up a sign that says "Abortion is murder" after the game because the team's owner would fire them if they did not.
You are clearly overintepreting what I mean by "I hope X does Y" so whatever. My point is to be extreme so that the point is obvious so if you think it's childish or anyway then go nuts about it, I guess.
After reading your replies many times, I've come to the conclusion you are either really naive or a 고집쟁이. I will drop the matter, I never said you were a terrible person it isn't my intention to flame you. Your original statements were painful to read and provoked me enough to comment.
GTR's stream, IIRC, he got this subscription to watch all korean channels online, so no, its not some random afreeca streamer, but in fact from the actual channel. It always seemed as if koreans get carried away when it comes to nationalism.
How recent was this? If it's recent then it's def not OGN/MBC doing it but the streamers since the subscription stopped working a few weeks ago
It was seen ages ago, like in January. Showed up every now and then. After the earthquakes happened, it changed to "stay strong japan".
I find it amazing that around 60% of the respondents have voted no, when they're obviously voting to self-censor whatever claim they have to free speech. Interesting, but not too "out there", considering how many liberties people are willing to give up for the sake of silence.
GTR's stream, IIRC, he got this subscription to watch all korean channels online, so no, its not some random afreeca streamer, but in fact from the actual channel. It always seemed as if koreans get carried away when it comes to nationalism.
How recent was this? If it's recent then it's def not OGN/MBC doing it but the streamers since the subscription stopped working a few weeks ago
It was seen ages ago, like in January. Showed up every now and then. After the earthquakes happened, it changed to "stay strong japan".
Augh. Yeah, my respect for OGN/MBC just went down. At least KeSPA isnt the one forcing them to run it (i hope)
I don't know why you are asking this, I don't think myself nor anybody else here is in a position to answer this. Ask the GomTV PD? Or better yet, e-mail the executives who authorized the whole thing. He (if he does choose to respond) will probably give you a semi-nationalistic answer that you may choose to regard as bullshit. But what's going to change?
The questions were obviously rhetorical.
Because they can. It is in the interest of the Korean government to secure and fortify the notion of "독도는 우리땅". Everybody knows the conglomerates and politicians work hand-in-hand, why not use GSL to direct a message to a huge foreign audience?
Yes, why don't we force every Korean outside of Korea to hold signs that says Dokdo is Korean in wherever they are while at it? The point is, the "why not use X to direct a message" should be more like "should we". It's not even the government doing this, but some SC2 council? That was supposed to replace KeSPA? That is called bullshit.
Top right corner sometimes flashing small box thing if I recall correctly.
How certain are you that is OGN and MBC and not some random afreeca streamer?
As I have stated before I fully understand your point on setting precedent and I don't believe that is debatable because you are entitled to your opinion. But just read over what you've said, here: "I hope some japanese guy joins GSL and holds up a sign that says "Dokdo belongs to Japan" when he wins." I don't wanna flame or go over literally and explain why it was bad on many different levels, even if your intention was to prove a point. If you don't find it the least bit childish and ignorant, I regret you feel this way.
So your response is "Oh man, you're a terrible person if you don't see why it's ignorant and childish?"
How about I rephrase. I hope the next team that wins the Super Bowl all holds up a sign that says "Abortion is murder" after the game because the team's owner would fire them if they did not.
You are clearly overintepreting what I mean by "I hope X does Y" so whatever. My point is to be extreme so that the point is obvious so if you think it's childish or anyway then go nuts about it, I guess.
After reading your replies many times, I've come to the conclusion you are either really naive or a 고집쟁이. I will drop the matter, I never said you were a terrible person it isn't my intention to flame you. Your original statements were painful to read and provoked me enough to comment.
Haha. I'm not really a 고집쟁이 cause I'm quite easily swayed by strong arguments or reasoning (which honestly you did not provide). But I do admit that I made my replies provocative on purpose (but I wouldn't use "ignorant" or "childish" to describe it), so I do apologize for that
I really wish people wouldn't bring freedom of speech into this. That's a separate argument, I'm sure most people here would agree speech should be as free as possible - it's needed to try and make life as democratic as possible. But that's not at issue here. I don't think he should have done it at the tournament, I don't think esports should tolerate this kind of thing at tournaments and certainly not if they want to be taken seriously. I watch Starcraft tournaments for Starcraft, not for political statements. MKP of course has the right to say Dokudo is Korean. Why doesn't he do it in his own time?
Time and a place people. This was not the right one for either. As a side note is anyone really saying anything new here?
how is freedom of speech seperate from this argument? hell the only reason we can all have this discussionwith different sides is because we have that freedom. what if threads like this always got banned because politics are "seperate" or "they dont belong" on TL. say what you want cause you can.
Sigh. I wasn't attacking freedom of speech, it's a fundamental cornerstone of democracy. It's silly to say it's not separate because we are exercising it now - should we bring it up in every thread on the forums? Hell, why not just mention it at the start of every conversation we ever have - I mean, that's all free speech, right? Think a little about what I actually said, and please don't make up an attack I didn't make.
My point was MKP has the right to free speech. What he should have done is exercise the unfortunately little used right to think about when he should have used that particular right to free speech. Politics should be kept out of esports, especially at this early stage, because esports is not a vehicle to spout political views. The status of these islands has absolutely nothing to do with Starcraft, why bring them into it at all? Saying he shouldn't have done so is not an attack on free speech, it's an appeal to try and keep esports about esports and nothing else.
GTR's stream, IIRC, he got this subscription to watch all korean channels online, so no, its not some random afreeca streamer, but in fact from the actual channel. It always seemed as if koreans get carried away when it comes to nationalism.
How recent was this? If it's recent then it's def not OGN/MBC doing it but the streamers since the subscription stopped working a few weeks ago
I remember exactly when it was: March 1st, anniversary of the March 1st Movement.
Examples: Look at the upper right corner. March 1st, 2011
March 1st, 2010
March 1st, 2009
Seems to be OGN only. MBCGame didn't do it, at least on that day. If anyone finds instances of MBCGame doing it, please share with us.
On April 02 2011 21:19 Jitensha wrote: Although worded poorly, I kind of see where shinku) is coming from. Both countries seem to have a very.. rigid mindset when it comes to history.
Of course, my personal experiences are very limited in comparison to others - the hate seemed to me to be very onesided. During my stay in Japan (~1½ year), not once did I hear anyone talk about Korea in a way that was blatantly negative. Two weeks in South Korea and the subject was pretty common.
A friend of mine who studied in Seoul during my time abroad told me that her impression was that cussing over Japan was as normal as talking about the weather.
(Might just have been us hanging around with completely different crowds, thus screwing impressions)
The emperor of Japan even formally apologised for the atrocities that South Korea was exposed to during WW2, and while that certainly doesn't make all fine and dandy - didn't like the next prime minister demand that they apologise again? Or similar. In a japanese point of view, it'd seem like Korea just demands more for crimes that were comitted by their grandparents. I'd be frustrated too :>
What happened was terrible and shouldn't be forgotten, so I think the rage is justified when "incidents" like when official-ish school books change the wordings to make it look like Japan is less faulty. The Dokdo case seems to be yet another of these, but I'm not updated on the matter enough to judge.
TLDR: I don't mind having players express political statements every now and then, but in my head this entire ordeal feels more like hate mongering. We need moar love!
It's a big misconception and I don't know how you can judge an entire country based on 2 week of experience. Koreans would never talk that openly to a foreigner in the first place. I lived in Korea for more than 5 years and they would rarely ever talk about anything politics when I'm around and I have millions of friends. Being the otaku that I am, I freqeuntly travel to Japan as well. The Korean hatred toward Japan is greatly exagerrated. It is true that there are more Koreans that are aware of the Dokdo situations in general, but if you want to go by the numbers of hate group and extremists, the numbers are not even close in favor of Japan. When talking about the internet in Japan, one of the first three things that comes to my mind is the net right ring that are totally obsessed with Korea.
On the other hand the net right wing in Korea is very small and close to non existent. You have some crazy lunatics in Daum but they are in the minority and they are not an organized group. There was a big Korea-Japan community site and over 90% of the users were Japanese. So it might sound weird but my impression was that at least in the internet, there are actually more Japanese that are obsessed with Koreans whether it's extreme hatred or love due to the korean wave.
It's hard for the western community to know this since Japanese net users or netizens rarely post anything bad about other country using non-japanese language. This has a lot to do with the "save face" culture in Asia which is particularly strong in Japan. That's why I didn't think that shinku was from Japan. I would actually agree with you somewhat if it was 10 years ago before the 2002 world cup and before the big Korean exposure in Japan but things has changed a lot since then.
Are Koreans more politicially awared of the situation? Yes but it doesn't mean that they hate everything Japanese. If that was true, they wouldn't have donated so much money for the quake relief. It's more than what they donated during haiti and katrina. They might not be a big fan of Japanese politics but I'll bet you that 7 out of 10 people in Korea have favorable view toward the regular Japanese people. Just because people don't like Bush doesn't mean they hate America.
I remember they had a global survey it might vary depending on the survey but I never seen a poll where the negative was higher on both sides and the postive view toward japan in Korea is increasing every year. Regular people actually like each other and that's the most important indication of their improving relationship. It was just a bad timing for the Japanese to announce the change in textbook after they got a huge donation. They should have brought that out 6 month later. Their argument is also pretty weak since Korea has full control of that island and there isn't really any clear historical proof for Japan to claim it. Also most historical documents favor the Korean side.
I personally think they should just give up since it's only putting a dent to the improving relationship. Even if they had a good claim, there is no chance that they'll get it back unless they invade Korea which they know is impossible. It's like trying to break a wall with raw eggs. They gain nothing from it other than exciting the right wing minority.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HZXYN.jpg)
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Obviously the team can sanction that if they don't accept it, or GomTV to avoid issues with their company, but as long as its acknowledge to be the views of the person alone, they can say whatever they want.
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