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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
If all unions were suddenly abolished then the status of the worker would slowly but surely be pressed as far as possible. It's only in the intrest of a company to be as productive as possible and that includes cheap labour, as cheap as possible. Once the situation gets very dire and the workers want to form a union again you can be damn sure that they aren't going to get a chance to form one. Union busting would be pretty simple if there are no unions. | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
Under unions, being by far the best worker doesn't mean you get the best wage. Without unions, you would undoubtedly get paid more for working harder. Unions promote laziness, they promote "working just as hard as you have to". Because you can't get fired, a lot of people don't try. And because you can't get raises for working hard, again, you don't try. Unions honestly annoy me in the news, and in general, but who am i to judge, I'm still a student. ^^ | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:21 cursor wrote: If you want to compete with people, internationally, for jobs, who work 7 days a week 12 hours a day with no safety regulations... please be my guest. The only good jobs left in this country are union jobs. The unions are not the problem with our system, or why it is collapsing. The problem is that corporations have too much power, run the government, run the regulating institutions and are 90% of the time running them with the same people. Dismantle the only counter balance to corporate power, as corrupt as it is, and see what happens. You think minimum wage is low? lol. Hope you like working weekends. The only good jobs left in this country are union jobs if you're uneducated. You have no idea what you're talking about. No unions does not mean "you work weekends". Nor does the fact that the companies have a lot of influence on the country does not mean the government is inadequate, nor are tariffs even a good thing. Of course, judging by the fact that you're willing to pass off all of these as plain fact literally implies you have no idea what you're talking about simply because you're blinded by how you want to see the world. Please get a grip. | ||
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No_Roo
United States905 Posts
On March 09 2011 03:32 Body_Shield wrote: Colder climates have a higher cost of living than warmer climates. This certainly isn't true, cost of living is derived from demand (how desirable it is to live there) that's why the bay area in california has such high cost of living. Generally speaking, if the only difference between two places was a cold climate or a more temperate climate, demand will be higher in the temperate area. Can a cold area have a higher cost of living than a warm area? Sure, but that would be the result of other features, and not the temperature. | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:31 Milkis wrote: The only good jobs left in this country are union jobs if you're uneducated. You have no idea what you're talking about. No unions does not mean "you work weekends". Nor does the fact that the companies have a lot of influence on the country does not mean the government is inadequate, nor are tariffs even a good thing. Of course, judging by the fact that you're willing to pass off all of these as plain fact literally implies you have no idea what you're talking about simply because you're blinded by how you want to see the world. Please get a grip. Congrats, so much text without any substiantial argument at all, nice. | ||
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:21 cursor wrote: The only good jobs left in this country are union jobs. The unions are not the problem with our system, or why it is collapsing. The problem is that corporations have too much power, run the government, run the regulating institutions and are 90% of the time running them with the same people. Dismantle the only counter balance to corporate power, as corrupt as it is, and see what happens. You think minimum wage is low? lol. Hope you like working weekends. No matter how much legal power corporations have, the simple fact is that they will compete for employees if they have to, and they will do what they can to avoid having to compete for employees and wages if they do not. The only way a company can make you work for less is if you are willing to work for it because your skills aren't worth enough to some other company. The best jobs are also not union jobs. Union jobs are just the best jobs for people who don't have significant skills. Engineers, programmers, IT professionals, managers, salespeople, HR reps, financiers, skilled tradespeople, doctors, lawyers, actuaries, counsellors, business owners, etc. can all make more in than your average union worker because they have skills you can't train in a few weeks or find on the street. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Go work at a Wal Mart and see the future of America without unions- I worked for a merchandising company in those stores for years. Then imagine that without minimum wage. Make no mistake that the center of the debate in this thread is, really, why is America in so much trouble economically. There are think tanks, media, and companies out there putting out the idea now- since its on the table- that the real problem with the US is organized labor. This couldn't be further from the truth. While flawed, Unions give people far more of a chance than without. The problem is the imbalanced power wielded by companies and the rich in this country, which affect policy creation to their favor. The attempt will be to argue that the Unions are the problem with the country. There are much much bigger ones I assure you. | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
REALLY ?? REALLY GUYS ?? your gonna keep tossing the same shit you v been tossing for ages.. do you REALLY dont see it ? every single country where the FMIs liberal recipe of shrinking the state,no intervention etc has failed HORRIBLY, that shit has even caused one of the worst crisis in the history of the US, even Europe is crashing... and your still saying the same stupid stuff ????? | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:33 cursor wrote: Go work at a Wal Mart and see the future of America without unions- I worked for a merchandising company in those stores for years. Then imagine that without minimum wage. Unions aren't involved in minimum wage. That is set by the government directly. Unions can affect what the job pays, though, overtop of that. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:31 Milkis wrote: The only good jobs left in this country are union jobs if you're uneducated. You have no idea what you're talking about. No unions does not mean "you work weekends". Nor does the fact that the companies have a lot of influence on the country does not mean the government is inadequate, nor are tariffs even a good thing. Of course, judging by the fact that you're willing to pass off all of these as plain fact literally implies you have no idea what you're talking about simply because you're blinded by how you want to see the world. Please get a grip. Sorry bro, but it is fact. It is fact that weekends came from organized labor. So did safety standards, in the Textile Mills for starters, coal mines and meat packing later on. These are protections that would easily be stripped away. Indeed you want to see the world as "everyone gets what they are due if they work hard and are educated enough." I'm afraid that is more of a contort of reality than iss "we need to match the institutional affect of the rich/powerful, with some sort of opposing power". | ||
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Lanaia
Canada1142 Posts
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:38 cursor wrote: Sorry bro, but it is fact. It is fact that weekends came from organized labor. So did safety standards, in the Textile Mills for starters, coal mines and meat packing later on. These are protections that would easily be stripped away. Indeed you want to see the world as "everyone gets what they are due if they work hard and are educated enough." I'm afraid that is more of a contort of reality than iss "we need to match the institutional affect of the rich/powerful, with some sort of opposing power". Past performance doesn't indicate current usefulness. A lot of that stuff is limited by laws unrelated to unions, now. If the only argument you can level in favor of unions is that the things they were once useful for might be reversed eventually without inciting action, then you're just acknowledging that they no longer have a purpose. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:33 SharkSpider wrote: Union jobs are just the best jobs for people who don't have significant skills. Engineers, programmers, IT professionals, managers, salespeople, HR reps, financiers, skilled tradespeople, doctors, lawyers, actuaries, counsellors, business owners, etc. can all make more in than your average union worker because they have skills you can't train in a few weeks or find on the street. You try to build a whole country that is adequately employed around those professions. Organized Labor is needed for construction, manufacturing, service and retail jobs... the bulk of any economy. (I should include farming but apparently that is done 99% by machinery these days.) I can see that a couple of you are arguing from the standpoint that you have a good job because of your education, and it pays well and you're irreplaceable because of your skill set. Congratulations. It's really good for you but it's not a viable answer for 90% of the workforce, nor is it really the "problem" with unemployment in the country. There are only so many of those types of jobs, which are highly competed for, which is why they are so well payed. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
Public unions, definitely not necessary, and should probably not be allowed | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:35 ThaZenith wrote: Unions aren't involved in minimum wage. That is set by the government directly. Unions can affect what the job pays, though, overtop of that. The government is run by the companies and the money. It would only be a matter of time. My point is, if you dissolve the only organized structures to lobby for people, it wont be long before the companies lobby the governments into outlawing minimum wage. It would be the next logical step. Some shit about competition, and how people are being payed too much and other people would do it for less, and how that is damaging our economy- you guys would eat that up. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
I live in Detroit, which is a pretty well unionized area, Michigan as a whole is pretty union oriented, with the UAW and all. I view unions as a form of regulation that helps to keep large companies from abusing employees. From what I hear, Wisconsin unions are in much more dire straits then michigan unions, although we did recently elect a republican governor. The idea that a union could be stripped of it's collective bargaining is insane to me. I think Jon Stewart said that a union without collective bargaining is just a group of people wearing identical t shirts | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:33 Ghad wrote: Congrats, so much text without any substiantial argument at all, nice. Some arguments are ridiculous enough that simply restating them is enough to disprove them. The first claim is so ridiculous -- the only reason why you would find union jobs "good" is simply because you are completely and utterly uneducated and incapable of doing anything substantial. There are many jobs out there and many things people could do, it's just that people aren't educated enough nor creative enough to find these opportunities. This is just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the poster I have quoted -- he has no idea how to think about issues simply because he is blinded. On March 09 2011 04:33 cursor wrote: Necessary yes. Flawed, yes. As is everything. Go work at a Wal Mart and see the future of America without unions- I worked for a merchandising company in those stores for years. Then imagine that without minimum wage. Make no mistake that the center of the debate in this thread is, really, why is America in so much trouble economically. There are think tanks, media, and companies out there putting out the idea now- since its on the table- that the real problem with the US is organized labor. This couldn't be further from the truth. While flawed, Unions give people far more of a chance than without. The problem is the imbalanced power wielded by companies and the rich in this country, which affect policy creation to their favor. The attempt will be to argue that the Unions are the problem with the country. There are much much bigger ones I assure you. No one thinks unions are the "problem with the country". Stop trying to rephrase the discussion and use strawmans to support your point. Unions are not necessary. Sorry bro, but it is fact. It is fact that weekends came from organized labor. So did safety standards, in the Textile Mills for starters, coal mines and meat packing later on. These are protections that would easily be stripped away. Indeed you want to see the world as "everyone gets what they are due if they work hard and are educated enough." I'm afraid that is more of a contort of reality than iss "we need to match the institutional affect of the rich/powerful, with some sort of opposing power". I don't see the world as that way, in fact, so good job strawmanning. The point is that there are government regulations that deals with many of the standard problems now -- many of the standard rights have been established at this point to the point where while they did nice things in the past because they were necessary in the past where competitive forces weren't in full effect, they are not necessary now where education triumphs all. | ||
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:43 cursor wrote: You try to build a whole country that is adequately employed around those professions. Organized Labor is needed for construction, manufacturing, service and retail jobs... the bulk of any economy. (I should include farming but apparently that is done 99% by machinery these days.) You're taking what I said out of context. I was simply showing to the power that their conclusion that Union jobs are the best jobs was not true. The economy does need unskilled labour, but right now companies are still reporting a skill shortage in America. Plenty of people who want jobs, but not enough people who can do them. On March 09 2011 04:43 cursor wrote: I can see that a couple of you are arguing from the standpoint that you have a good job because of your education, and it pays well and you're irreplaceable because of your skill set. Congratulations. It's really good for you but it's not a viable answer for 90% of the workforce, nor is it really the "problem" with unemployment in the country. There are only so many of those types of jobs, which are highly competed for, which is why they are so well payed. Jobs that have a lot of qualified applicants are not highly paid. Your argument is actually exactly and precisely wrong in that it is backwards. Highly professional jobs have people competing to become qualified for them, to meet a preset standard that is required to do the job. The reason they pay well is so that people will go the the lengths to learn and develop their skills so they can do the jobs properly. If wages are high in any area, that means there aren't enough people there. This is only really false when unions and collective bargaining are involved. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
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