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Are Unions Necessary in the Modern World? - Page 19

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manicshock
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada741 Posts
March 09 2011 21:40 GMT
#361
Unions are important, just unions have become too powerful. They have too much weight, and throw it around.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
March 09 2011 21:56 GMT
#362
On March 09 2011 23:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2011 19:18 dogabutila wrote:
This whole debate misses the distinction between public sector unions and private sector unions.


The question is, what is the purpose of a union?
How does this union fit into government?

The simple answers are that unions are to fight against the employer taking advantage of them. In essence, the union wants to make it such that employees do as little work as possible for the most compensation possible. HOWEVER, in a private sector setting, the union MUST take into account the competition and competitiveness of the industry. Demands too high render the company unprofitable and will drive the company into bankrupcy. Thus the union must weigh its demands against the wellbeing of the company as well, because if the company goes bankrupt // out of business, the union loses as well.

This is not true for a public sector union. What loss does the government have to agreeing to all demands? None. They don't personally pay out, they do not have a bottom line to look at (well....people are starting to care about the budget) but there is no incentive at all to NOT grant every concession possible when negotiating. Unions can never lose.

Another markable difference, public sector unions can basically choose with whom they negotiate. They are active politically (which would be why dems/libs are fighting to the death to preserve union power) and have a marked interest in who they help elect. This is not possible with private sector unions. They do not choose who their bosses are, they do not choose who they negotiate with.

Public sector unions is basically the government employees fighting against the government. The only goal is to enlarge government expenses and reduce productivity. Looking at this historically, public sector unions never even existed for much of the time when private sector unions were necessary. Implimentation of public sector unions was a political move designed to enlarge and empower the left wing political base.

Are unions necessary? Yes. Far less so then they used to be. Much of the things unions originally had to fight for are now rights granted by law (by the government no less...) Unions were the people vs the business, ensuring they were treated fairly. Then the government stepped in and basically did the job for unions, ensuring workers rights. This is why we see much lower private sector unionization.

Are unions necessary for the public? No. And they never have been. Removal of collective bargaining is the rectification of a 50 year mistake. Do people need protection from the government that already ensures that workers have rights? No. Do people need protection from the employers that they elect? No.


Anybody supporting the wisconsin public unions is either out of touch with reality, blindly left wing, or does not understand the effects of a union in the public sector.


Your opinion is just as out of touch with reality.

You're trying to argue that any public union would keep its mouth shut and watch the government shoot itself in the foot so long as it doesn't affect the workers pay-check, and that simply isn't the case. I can give you plenty of examples where unions have fought against equipment/facility cuts that don't affect the pay of its members, rather their productivity.

Unions are necessary because they represent the interest of the worker. Yes, this directly conflicts with the interest of both the employer and the consumer, but without workers, nobody is happy anyway.


You're right and wrong. The public sector unions WON'T give a shit about the economy so long as they get what they deem to be the right paycheck. They really DON'T give a damn about the employer (government) shooting itself in the foot. There is no reason for public sector unions NOT to drive the economy into the ground. Am I claiming that public sector unions are the only reason for the economy being as shitty as it is? No. But left unchecked for long enough, that is the only end result of a public sector union precisely because there is no reason for them not to.

Do public sector unions do things other then negotiate for pay? Yes. Does that mean they are necessary? Maybe. Does that mean collective bargaining is necessary? No.

Lets be clear though, I never argued that public sector unions wouldn't say anything not related to money. But since this debate, while phrased as a debate about unions in general, is really about public sector unions and economics and collective bargaining theres not a real reason to go into all the other supposed benefits.

I'll leave you with this thought, "can a union, without collective bargaining, still voice opposition to cuts in equipment/facility cuts?"

On March 09 2011 19:40 xM(Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2011 19:18 dogabutila wrote:
.......

your whole point is based on the assumption that government works for the people. many people beg to differ and even more are saying that the governmet works for the corporations.

what will you do when the government doesnt represent the interest of the people?


Many people need to take a real government class and not the NSL shit they teach in schools these days. In a democratic form of government with regular (non-rigged) elections the government always works for the people. Corporations can throw money at politicians, but people still vote for them. Thats why states hold hearings on bills they pass, thats why you can contact your reps. Thats why you vote. The reason some people think government works for corporations is because in general, outside elections, people do not make their wishes known. A lot of people grump about what they are doing to friends or at work or on online forums, but how many are actually politically active? How many people here have called their senator or rep and told them what they thought of a bill or issue? Sent a letter or email? Doing so is important because the staff of said person actually keeps track of the amount of voiced support for a certain issue side.

However, what we see nowadays is exactly the government not representing the interest of the people, because elected officials play more towards being re-elected then doing what might be in the actual interest of the people. How else do you think we got into this debt? Massive spending on wars, Social Security out of control and needing a fix, Medicare/caid taking a huge chunk of our budget.

This is where a lot of the earmarks and stuff come from too. Politico's spend money on their own state to make jobs, bring money in or what have you because it good for getting re-elected.

Why are none of these problems fixed? Because regardless of what might actually be GOOD for the country, the majority of people still want certain things. So we get issues like the political 'third rail' that are untouchable (until recent economic problems have been too big to ignore)

It's really a case of, 'be careful what you wish for' or confusing wants with needs.
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
ICA
Profile Joined January 2011
498 Posts
March 09 2011 21:59 GMT
#363
On March 10 2011 05:45 Rashid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2011 05:27 ICA wrote:
Why are you guys always connecting minimum wages with unions? I mean these are to distinguished things, at least where I live.
Minimum wages (whether they are good or not is again a totally different topic) are set by the gvmt rather than unions. Unions renegotiate contracts. Even if there wouldn't be unions you could still have min wages.
And again to stress my opinion which I stated before, minimum wages as well as unions cause unemployment. That's some serious stuff that most of you guys seem to forget.


Minimum wages and unions don't cause unemployment. Not having enough employers does.

That is why it is important for the government to set up educational campaigns and entrepreneurship programs to teach young working adults that they too can have their own businesses. as well as special loans to help them start-up, like how the government is doing in my country.


They do :D

I do not disagree with your second paragraph though, but that should be self-evident imo.
Not having enough employers is also correct, but not the sole reason.
If minimum wages do not cause unemployment, then why are the being disputed? What then is bad about them? Minimum wages abandon all those simple jobs that are just necessairy, don't need any training and can be performed by everybody. Those people get unemployed. If you say that employers can just pay them more is wrong. Employers in competitve markets are themselves paying the highest wage possible, if the wage rises they can employ only a friction of the people they employed before.
And the reason why unions cause unemployment I explained like two pages before, I think.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
March 09 2011 22:08 GMT
#364
Haha, I read the title as "Are Unicorns necessary in the modern world?"
DrainX
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Sweden3187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-09 22:21:00
March 09 2011 22:18 GMT
#365
On March 10 2011 06:56 dogabutila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2011 19:40 xM(Z wrote:
On March 09 2011 19:18 dogabutila wrote:
.......

your whole point is based on the assumption that government works for the people. many people beg to differ and even more are saying that the governmet works for the corporations.

what will you do when the government doesnt represent the interest of the people?


Many people need to take a real government class and not the NSL shit they teach in schools these days. In a democratic form of government with regular (non-rigged) elections the government always works for the people. Corporations can throw money at politicians, but people still vote for them. Thats why states hold hearings on bills they pass, thats why you can contact your reps. Thats why you vote. The reason some people think government works for corporations is because in general, outside elections, people do not make their wishes known. A lot of people grump about what they are doing to friends or at work or on online forums, but how many are actually politically active? How many people here have called their senator or rep and told them what they thought of a bill or issue? Sent a letter or email? Doing so is important because the staff of said person actually keeps track of the amount of voiced support for a certain issue side.

However, what we see nowadays is exactly the government not representing the interest of the people, because elected officials play more towards being re-elected then doing what might be in the actual interest of the people. How else do you think we got into this debt? Massive spending on wars, Social Security out of control and needing a fix, Medicare/caid taking a huge chunk of our budget.

This is where a lot of the earmarks and stuff come from too. Politico's spend money on their own state to make jobs, bring money in or what have you because it good for getting re-elected.

Why are none of these problems fixed? Because regardless of what might actually be GOOD for the country, the majority of people still want certain things. So we get issues like the political 'third rail' that are untouchable (until recent economic problems have been too big to ignore)

It's really a case of, 'be careful what you wish for' or confusing wants with needs.


Manufacturing consent is the name of the game.
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
March 09 2011 22:41 GMT
#366
unions are necessary. do you know why you have a 2 day weekend? why we have lunch breaks? the unions. they are the last stand against corporations who only see labor as a tool and an expense (wages) that can be cut down if we let them do it. rich people don't give a fuck about you. never forget it.
Rashid
Profile Joined March 2011
191 Posts
March 09 2011 23:11 GMT
#367
On March 10 2011 06:59 ICA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2011 05:45 Rashid wrote:
On March 10 2011 05:27 ICA wrote:
Why are you guys always connecting minimum wages with unions? I mean these are to distinguished things, at least where I live.
Minimum wages (whether they are good or not is again a totally different topic) are set by the gvmt rather than unions. Unions renegotiate contracts. Even if there wouldn't be unions you could still have min wages.
And again to stress my opinion which I stated before, minimum wages as well as unions cause unemployment. That's some serious stuff that most of you guys seem to forget.


Minimum wages and unions don't cause unemployment. Not having enough employers does.

That is why it is important for the government to set up educational campaigns and entrepreneurship programs to teach young working adults that they too can have their own businesses. as well as special loans to help them start-up, like how the government is doing in my country.


They do :D

I do not disagree with your second paragraph though, but that should be self-evident imo.
Not having enough employers is also correct, but not the sole reason.
If minimum wages do not cause unemployment, then why are the being disputed? What then is bad about them? Minimum wages abandon all those simple jobs that are just necessairy, don't need any training and can be performed by everybody. Those people get unemployed. If you say that employers can just pay them more is wrong. Employers in competitve markets are themselves paying the highest wage possible, if the wage rises they can employ only a friction of the people they employed before.
And the reason why unions cause unemployment I explained like two pages before, I think.


No they they do not.

Saying that abolishing minimum wage and unions will solve unemployment is like saying hiring 13 year old thai orphans as sex slaves in brothels will save them from the streets. Both are greedy, selfish, unethical solutions to a problem.

Yeah, it's a shame that staff costing more means employers cant hire more workers, increasing unemployment, but that doesn't mean employers can use this lame excuse to cut corners in the salaries and benefits of their employees just to hire a larger workforce, especially since the employer loses NOTHING and gains A LOT in return: employees get their salaries and benefits reduced while employers get to have a larger workforce without having to sacrifice a single dime.

Like i said before, the REAL solution is for the government to intervent with campaigns and programs aimed to educate the working class about entrepreneurship. And it would also help a lot if corporations and business owners to be more socially responsible and not act like greedy selfish douchebags and do stupid inconsiderate things like giving themselves million dollar bonuses using bailout money.



staxringold
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
March 09 2011 23:43 GMT
#368
Also if you "solve" unemployment by getting people jobs that pay less than the current minimum wage (which is itself not a liveable wage) that's not solving anything, it's sweeping a problem under the rug by playing with numbers.
ibreakurface
Profile Joined June 2010
United States664 Posts
March 09 2011 23:51 GMT
#369
Yes. Without unions we wouldn't have out minimum wage. It isn't as important as back when the steel industry was around, but it is important nonetheless.

Who gives a fuck if we have the strongest economy, do we forget why we want a good economy? So we can have a better quality of life.
:) I play zerg. FOX AND KT ROLSTER COASTER FAN! Because I love everyone. Except bisu.
tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
March 09 2011 23:51 GMT
#370
On March 10 2011 08:11 Rashid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2011 06:59 ICA wrote:
On March 10 2011 05:45 Rashid wrote:
On March 10 2011 05:27 ICA wrote:
Why are you guys always connecting minimum wages with unions? I mean these are to distinguished things, at least where I live.
Minimum wages (whether they are good or not is again a totally different topic) are set by the gvmt rather than unions. Unions renegotiate contracts. Even if there wouldn't be unions you could still have min wages.
And again to stress my opinion which I stated before, minimum wages as well as unions cause unemployment. That's some serious stuff that most of you guys seem to forget.


Minimum wages and unions don't cause unemployment. Not having enough employers does.

That is why it is important for the government to set up educational campaigns and entrepreneurship programs to teach young working adults that they too can have their own businesses. as well as special loans to help them start-up, like how the government is doing in my country.


They do :D

I do not disagree with your second paragraph though, but that should be self-evident imo.
Not having enough employers is also correct, but not the sole reason.
If minimum wages do not cause unemployment, then why are the being disputed? What then is bad about them? Minimum wages abandon all those simple jobs that are just necessairy, don't need any training and can be performed by everybody. Those people get unemployed. If you say that employers can just pay them more is wrong. Employers in competitve markets are themselves paying the highest wage possible, if the wage rises they can employ only a friction of the people they employed before.
And the reason why unions cause unemployment I explained like two pages before, I think.


No they they do not.

Saying that abolishing minimum wage and unions will solve unemployment is like saying hiring 13 year old thai orphans as sex slaves in brothels will save them from the streets. Both are greedy, selfish, unethical solutions to a problem.

Yeah, it's a shame that staff costing more means employers cant hire more workers, increasing unemployment, but that doesn't mean employers can use this lame excuse to cut corners in the salaries and benefits of their employees just to hire a larger workforce, especially since the employer loses NOTHING and gains A LOT in return: employees get their salaries and benefits reduced while employers get to have a larger workforce without having to sacrifice a single dime.

Like i said before, the REAL solution is for the government to intervent with campaigns and programs aimed to educate the working class about entrepreneurship. And it would also help a lot if corporations and business owners to be more socially responsible and not act like greedy selfish douchebags and do stupid inconsiderate things like giving themselves million dollar bonuses using bailout money.





Go tell someone with a PhD in economics that minimal wage doesn't cause unemployment...they will certainly set you straight.
SharkSpider
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada606 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-09 23:54:15
March 09 2011 23:51 GMT
#371
On March 10 2011 08:43 staxringold wrote:
Also if you "solve" unemployment by getting people jobs that pay less than the current minimum wage (which is itself not a liveable wage) that's not solving anything, it's sweeping a problem under the rug by playing with numbers.

This is not true for union wages, which is what the topic of discussion is.

I'm also against minimum wage as is, it should scale with age up until adulthood, because the people who really reap the benefits of a minimum wage increase are the 16-year old part-timers working at fast food joints. Course, that would lead to some agism, which might even be illegal. Either way, as a whole its a flawed system when you add in training wages, part-time and students to the mix.
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
March 10 2011 00:27 GMT
#372
The U.S. hasn't been the same since Truman said he was going to draft and take away the seniority rights of protesters.

Believe it or not, but there was a time when government policy ensured that wages rose with prices.

Solidarity and the chance for unions to have a say in management is over. Neoliberalism is starting to lay down the hurt.
KTY
Zealotdriver
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1557 Posts
March 10 2011 00:57 GMT
#373
Unions are necessary to balance the power of corporations. Corporations, including governments, exploit their workers as much as they can. A single worker cannot change or challenge a corporation, but if the workers unionize they can ensure that they get a fair deal.
Turn off the radio
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7227 Posts
March 11 2011 21:01 GMT
#374
On March 10 2011 04:03 Krikkitone wrote:


If you think your country is bad, vote... or leave.
If you think your workplace is bad, buy some stock and vote...or quit
If you think your union is bad, vote...or .. you can't opt out.


For public unions there is the problem that they are voters



This whole idea of being able to pick up and move at the drop of a hat is ridiculous. Ive seen several people in this thread bring that point up. "Well if you think you aren't being paid appropriately, leave" I

You act as if a person can magically move from one place to another at no cost or risk.

Moving or switching companies isnt as easy as you are making it out to be.

Theres things such as family, cost of moving(things like a lease or a mortgage), risk in moving (whos to say itll be better there or there will be long term stability). Pros and Cons must be weighed.

Just telling people to up and move is incredibly childish ans simple minded. It shows you have no real world experience or you have zero meaningful connections with people around you.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
NEOtheONE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2233 Posts
March 29 2011 07:53 GMT
#375
The problem is that there are too many parties involved in the process. There's the business, the employees, the union, the stockholders, the government, and the consumers. Someone is always going to get the short end of the stick, and usually it's the consumers and/or the employees. When the Union gets higher wages for workers, some workers may be laid off and/or prices are hiked up for the consumer. Government imposes healthcare reform and then health care payments go up for employees and/or prices go up for consumer. Consumers refuse to pay higher prices, business loses money, employees are laid off. Stockholders want the company to go in one direction, and the company overextends and ends up declaring bankruptcy (Borders, Car manufacturers, etc.) and many workers get laid off. We need less parties involved in this process. Either the government or unions need to back off a bit. (stockholders need to shut up regardless).

Of course this may become irrelevant eventually.It's highly possible that most worker jobs will eventually be made obsolete by machines, robots, and computers. The technology essentially exists already, and making it an affordable alternative to a human staff may only be a matter of time.
Abstracts, the too long didn't read of the educated world.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
March 29 2011 07:57 GMT
#376
On March 09 2011 02:11 hidiliho wrote:
LMAO. I read this as "Are onions necessary in the modern world?"

I was like: "whats wrong with onions?

I just woke up

Lol, I just did this as well. XD

I just woke up.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 29 2011 07:59 GMT
#377
are unions necessary in the modern world?

yes, unless you consider the "modern world" to be the the US. unfortunately, not all workers that deserve better treatment have the union power to make their lives a little better
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
ArcticVanguard
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States450 Posts
March 29 2011 09:00 GMT
#378
One argument I see tossed around here is "look at what they've done," and then they proceed to cite minimum wage, lunch breaks, two day weekends, the whole nine yards. I think that's a slight misunderstanding of what's being asked though. I'm not denying they did those things and that they were necessary, but are they doing enough good in the present day that they're worth having? And just for the record, I think that (in my limited knowledge) they are still necessary and very relevant to the modern day. I just wanted to point out that talking about what they've done in the past doesn't make them more relevant today.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
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