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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:04 Piy wrote: They're beneficial for the people trading, not necessarily the workers. And workers are the people to whom unions pertain. They sell their labor, its a trade. And I wasn't talking about Unions, things got off topic. | ||
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Rashid
191 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:15 Sephimos wrote: Exactly, cumbersome unions are necessary because they benefit you personally. What a convincing argument. And thank you for being in a construction union especially, skyrocketing the costs of home building and road repair. So, you're saying it's okay to abuse and take advantage of workers like him if it means getting cheaper houses and cheaper road maintenance? Let me tell you, the place i'm coming from, labor contractors hire Indonesian immigrants for general construction work for less than US$170 a MONTH. But the houses aint getting cheaper, cause all the money was meant to pay the pockets of their fat overpayed employers and certain government officials instead of being invested for better service. HAHA CAPITALISM IS AWESOME. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
There is nothing evil about the concept of a union: workers organizing themselves is very democratic and conductive to equality and worker's rights. | ||
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Sephimos
United States144 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:24 Rashid wrote: So, you're saying it's okay to abuse and take advantage of workers like him if it means getting cheaper houses and cheaper road maintenance? Let me tell you, the place i'm coming from, labor contractors hire Indonesian immigrants for general construction work for less than US$170 a MONTH. But the houses aint getting cheaper, cause all the money was meant to pay the pockets of their fat overpayed employers and certain government officials instead of being invested for better service. HAHA CAPITALISM IS AWESOME. It sounds like you need a less corrupt government. And if paying someone 20 dollars an hour is abusing them, I could personally stand a lot more abuse. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:29 Grumbels wrote: It's sort of sad how hostile we are to unions. Even people in this thread who are favorable to unions use language such as "it's a necessary evil", "an ugly solution to an uglier problem", did anti-union propaganda really get so accepted you know have to preface a defense of unions by saying you do in fact hate them, but for some reason don't want to get rid of them? There is nothing evil about the concept of a union: workers organizing themselves is very democratic and conductive to equality and worker's rights. I think the UAW and the teacher's union give people a negative opinion about Unions. | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:11 dANiELcanuck wrote: Hell yes unions are necessary. If I wasn't in a union (and there were none for my trade) I'd be making 20$ an hour as a journeyman. Because I'm in a union I get paid over 50$ an hour, that includes benefits like health and welfare, pension, etc. Unions have their place. A small company trying to pay out union wages might not be able to afford it, but big corporations that won't notice wages for labour should be paying what the labour is worth. In my trade, as a scaffolder, people's lives depend on me being able to do my job safely, and doing it right the first time. We take pride in our work, and make sure people are educated. Non-union workers (in the past) have refused to work on non-union built scaffolds, because they didn't feel safe. What's that tell you? My dad is a retired boilermaker. The horror stories he tells me about the shoddy work non-union workers would do on some of the jobs he was on makes me shudder. He's actually started walkoffs on jobs before because of how unsafe the non-union employees made the job for everyone else. Did the companies care? not at all, they were paying less than before. solidarity my friend! | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:29 Grumbels wrote: It's sort of sad how hostile we are to unions. Even people in this thread who are favorable to unions use language such as "it's a necessary evil", "an ugly solution to an uglier problem", did anti-union propaganda really get so accepted you know have to preface a defense of unions by saying you do in fact hate them, but for some reason don't want to get rid of them? There is nothing evil about the concept of a union: workers organizing themselves is very democratic and conductive to equality and worker's rights. QFT I'm all for unions. I think they are very beneficial for the worker, in both assuring their safety, and assuring they won't be exploited. | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:19 Sephimos wrote: This argument might hold some weight in the private sector, it holds none in the public. The public worker's employers are the people, they have no right of negotiation or strike. so if you, "the people", are paying them below what they should be getting, or their working conditions are horrid, they just need to deal with it? They aren't your emlpoyees. You personally don't get to decide anything about them because this is america, and we're a republic, not a mobocracy. You vote for people to be their employers, and if the need arises, they have every right to ask for better treatment/pay/conditions. I've worked in CSEA jobs over the summer to pay for school, and seen first hand the bullshit that the city/state/university, what have you, puts the workers through. If they weren't in a union it would be 10 times worse. | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:00 Yergidy wrote: That person that makes 2$ an hour does more work than the worker who gets paid to work... just because they don't do manual labor doesn't mean they don't work... Your view on capitalism is just skewed and downright wrong. People who own their own business work their asses off. nonono u dont understand... they are still making money off others people work.. anyway,you dont even need to manage your company..YOU CAN PAY PEOPLE TO DO IT TO EARN EVEN MORE MONEY! (CEOs anyone??) how many big , that really matter , companies are run by owners.. ? mmmm maybe..like 1% ? | ||
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Sephimos
United States144 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:33 pfods wrote: so if you, "the people", are paying them below what they should be getting, or their working conditions are horrid, they just need to deal with it? They aren't your emlpoyees. You personally don't get to decide anything about them because this is america, and we're a republic, not a mobocracy. You vote for people to be their employers, and if the need arises, they have every right to ask for better treatment/pay/conditions. I've worked in CSEA jobs over the summer to pay for school, and seen first hand the bullshit that the city/state/university, what have you, puts the workers through. If they weren't in a union it would be 10 times worse. Idea: If working in the public sector is so crappy, they can find something else to do. Working in the public sector is not a God-given right. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:33 Mr. Wiggles wrote: QFT I'm all for unions. I think they are very beneficial for the worker, in both assuring their safety, and assuring they won't be exploited. I'd bet a decent sum that the people who are hostile to unions have never been on the receiving side of the rape-stick from some company trying to screw you out of your benefits, your pay, or your insurance. In the current system, companies are given a ridiculous amount of power and whether the public wants to believe it or not, they still like to exploit you, the middle and lower class as much as possible. | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:31 emc wrote: my buddy works at Trader Joes and they don't have Unions but he gets paid vacation, and part of his dental/health covered by the company. They also start you out at 10.50 which is above minimum wage. Are unions necessary? hell no. If a company like Trader Joes can do without it, then so can other companies. Keep in mind that TJ is a huge corporation now, maybe not as big as Safeway, Albertsons, Luckys or Foodmax, but it's doing a damn good job without needing unions. Now please tell me how someone is going to encourage a private company to pay that out with benefits to its workers if it doesn't already. Obviously other companies can do it, no one is even arguing that they can't, or that unions bring this about. But how do you encourage the company to change its policy like that? First the workers need to get together, then they need to collectively ask the owner for what they want, show solidarity, and negotiate. When they get it, they need to keep up with it. That's the most effective way, next to government intervention, to do that. And then what do you have? A union. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:20 smokeyhoodoo wrote: They sell their labor, its a trade. And I wasn't talking about Unions, things got off topic. They sell their labor because they have no choice. You just sell it to the highest bidder. The highest bidder can then exploit the worker in any way they need to in order to make a profit. For example, McDonald's intentionally makes its job as easy and repetitive as possible so that workers can be paid low amounts and replaced easily. This is great for them, but not so great for the workers, who really only work to make McDonalds money. They of course need money to survive in the modern climate, but this system will always breed massive inequality, which is something that Unions attempt to assuage. | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:35 Sephimos wrote: Idea: If working in the public sector is so crappy, they can find something else to do. Working in the public sector is not a God-given right. You sound awfully bitter. No one is saying it's a right to work in the public sector, but they do have the right to proper work environments and fair pay, which unions help negotiate. Plus, your idea of "they can go somewhere else" is really childish. In an economy with an unemployment rate of 9.5%, there aren't a whole lot of spare jobs sitting around. This is doubly true in more rural towns. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:08 Rashid wrote: Yes, in fact, those employers really do work their asses off to earn their pay. I mean, somebody has to manage and supervise all those 13 year old indian girls in the sewing factory, right? Those girls aint gonna pimp slap themselves you know. Ya cuz thats who people who own their own businesses hire... | ||
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mrscheng
Sweden658 Posts
On March 09 2011 02:11 hidiliho wrote: LMAO. I read this as "Are onions necessary in the modern world?" I was like: "whats wrong with onions? I just woke up  +1 -_-* | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
so lets say youy want to get better at starcraft.. is the way to improve not doing anythin ? absolutly nothing ?? lets asume nothings means just laddering.. is that the only or best way to improve ? are the greatest players only in ladder? ( except for athenewins LOL ) greatest players train,and do stuff the more stuff they do the better they get , they have training buddys , drills , practice in private games, tournaments, etc .- | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:29 Grumbels wrote: It's sort of sad how hostile we are to unions. Even people in this thread who are favorable to unions use language such as "it's a necessary evil", "an ugly solution to an uglier problem", did anti-union propaganda really get so accepted you know have to preface a defense of unions by saying you do in fact hate them, but for some reason don't want to get rid of them? There is nothing evil about the concept of a union: workers organizing themselves is very democratic and conductive to equality and worker's rights. Teachers' Unions make it extremely difficult to fire crap teachers, or to pay better salaries to good teachers. The real solution is to improve conditions and compensation so that you can attract quality teachers, and throw off the shackles of union restrictions. The union is a way to keep skeezy employers from becoming abusive. It is a partial solution to the problem of skeezy employers... For more examples of legal or legal-ish Union crap, see... CLOSED SHOPS Middle-class compensation for safe & easy jobs that any monkey could do Shutting down the entire fucking city metro if they don't get their way | ||
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Sephimos
United States144 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:40 pfods wrote: You sound awfully bitter. No one is saying it's a right to work in the public sector, but they do have the right to proper work environments and fair pay, which unions help negotiate. Plus, your idea of "they can go somewhere else" is really childish. In an economy with an unemployment rate of 9.5%, there aren't a whole lot of spare jobs sitting around. This is doubly true in more rural towns. I'm not bitter about anything, the alligator tears from union members just get to me. These people are pampered and from their rhetoric, you would think that they were getting blacklung in coal mines. Your assertion that someone has a right to do whatever job they want, demand a wage, and expect it to be handed to them on a silver platter is the childish idea here. An employer offers a wage, people can take it or leave it. That's the end of the story, sorry you can't understand that. And even expanding, if unemployment is double the average, you would think public union members could make concessions and just be grateful to have secure work. Fuck no. Public union members want their cake, your cake, and to eat it to. They're parasites on the body politic and they make me sick. | ||
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