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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:08 tedster wrote: We want to be "on the side" of the people without pissing them all off and avoid reminding them that we helped cement their troubles in the first place. Can we stop thinking about selfish politics and stop killing civilians just for humanity, at least once? Please? | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:08 tedster wrote: The danger with the west getting involved at all is these are currently pro-west dictatorships that are being challenged. If we meddle in any way with another revolution there's a very good chance it all gets rejected as just another bid for pro-western absolute power. We want to be "on the side" of the people without pissing them all off and avoid reminding them that we helped cement their troubles in the first place. Enforce a no fly zone? That's tantamount to supporting regime change, and everyone knows how bad removing dictators from power is, right? This is a Libyan affair, and for anyone to ask for UN intervention invites an incredible standard of hypocrisy. Godspeed to Libyan protesters in their own matters (although with the defectors it seems more like a rebellion), because no one can honestly suggest that the West can seriously do anything here without looking like complete idiots lol. | ||
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joukainen
Norway19 Posts
2 choppers have also desserted, aswell as the interior minister | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:21 Consolidate wrote: If no outside nation has any interest at stake, then the UN has nothing at stake. France, UK, Germany and Italy etc. import majority of Libyan oil. | ||
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eddytlaw
United States102 Posts
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0mar
United States567 Posts
Secondly, no change in government ever came without bloodshed. People have to be willing to die in order to see change, something that us in the West should learn again. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:22 Rflcrx wrote: Can we stop thinking about selfish politics and stop killing civilians just for humanity, at least once? Please? It's not "selfish politics;" it's prudent planning. You can't just solve other people's problems by marching in with guns and tanks. Doing that causes an effect, but it will likely not be the effect you want. Invading armies, even if they're invading on your behalf, are never a good thing. It's simplistic thinking that if you just go stop the bad people, everything will be better. Yes, it's bad to see people dying in the streets. But getting directly involved isn't going to solve their problems. | ||
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stork4ever
United States1036 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:25 eddytlaw wrote: this is retarded, has no one read history books! shooting ppl don't fucking work worked in 1989 | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: France, UK, Germany and Italy etc. import majority of Libyan oil. The sad thing about this is that it took the tribal leaders to refuse to produce oil, instead of the French, Germans, British, and Italians to stand up and say they won't buy Libyan oil unless Gaddafi stops the killing and/or steps down. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:25 eddytlaw wrote: this is retarded, has no one read history books! shooting ppl don't fucking work are you kidding me? Shooting people is what works 99% of the time. You kill enough people and the rest will fall into line. That's what shutdown Tienanmen Square, shutdown the Iraqi revolutions in the '80s. The wrench in the scheme is when the military refuses to shoot people as we saw in Egypt and supposedly what's happening in Libya. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:26 NicolBolas wrote: It's not "selfish politics;" it's prudent planning. You can't just solve other people's problems by marching in with guns and tanks. Doing that causes an effect, but it will likely not be the effect you want. Invading armies, even if they're invading on your behalf, are never a good thing. It's simplistic thinking that if you just go stop the bad people, everything will be better. Yes, it's bad to see people dying in the streets. But getting directly involved isn't going to solve their problems. Who said anything about guns and tanks? Just shoot down the planes. | ||
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Sobba
Sweden576 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:22 Rflcrx wrote: Can we stop thinking about selfish politics and stop killing civilians just for humanity, at least once? Please? The world is not a giant orange of love, ''helping'' these people with aircraft shooting down their airplanes will most likely have a second motive(did I write that word right?). And If they REALLY don't, then the people will still take it as such. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:28 Rflcrx wrote: Who said anything about guns and tanks? Just shoot down the planes. The situation right now is that if there was any international intervention in any of these countries, the entire region will burn. Imagine the outcry in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and all the other places where the West is a four-letter-word. The arab street will demand revenge and either their leaders provide it or they become the next Wikipedia entry in "Middle East upheaval in 2011." This time is different. Leaders are becoming increasingly isolated as the military abandons them. Without the support of the military, no country's government can survive. The rule of gun always surpasses the rule of law because dead people can't government. The West cannot afford being cutoff from oil, especially with the recovery in America being stagnant and resurgent fears of debt crises in Europe. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:28 Rflcrx wrote: Who said anything about guns and tanks? Just shoot down the planes. "Just" shoot down the planes? "JUST"? What happens if Gaddafi stays? Do you still buy Libyan oil? Will he still sell it to you? There are a host of problems with this "simple" solution you rather naively suggest. This isn't the Balkans, where intervention was substantially simpler. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
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allecto
328 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:38 Rflcrx wrote: And people wonder why they hate us. Well maybe we should sell Mr. G. some airplanes and bombs? If we do we sure will get the oil.. Ow but this happens alright, You know Iran?The country we all hate and belong to the famed Axes of Evil? They sell their oil to everyone int he West too, in exchange for the right price(Which then can be used for anything they want). Case in point, the west is best not interferring in the Middle east. Enforcing a new regime with violence won't work. Also this is derailing a bit and my bad for that, lets just get back to Libya, which is more important. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:26 NicolBolas wrote: It's not "selfish politics;" it's prudent planning. You can't just solve other people's problems by marching in with guns and tanks. Doing that causes an effect, but it will likely not be the effect you want. Invading armies, even if they're invading on your behalf, are never a good thing. It's simplistic thinking that if you just go stop the bad people, everything will be better. Yes, it's bad to see people dying in the streets. But getting directly involved isn't going to solve their problems. Case in point, Pakistan. They removed Musharraf but the country is getting worse and worse. The economy is in shambles. The army is still in control behind the curtains. A member of the ruling party who was trying to reform their blasphemy laws was assassinated last month but they're too scared of the religious extremists to condemn the killing. | ||
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DorN
Germany90 Posts
On February 22 2011 06:29 Sobba wrote: Libya will fall shortly. Alot of high ranking officials defecting. These revolts are the biggest news since 9/11. Will it be a world change like 9/11? Lets hope the revolts brings real democracy in the middle east. This is bigger than 9/11. Maybe the biggest part of History we will witness in our lifetime. | ||
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