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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
Gaddafi speech 20th of September 2011.
"All should be aware that the government of Libya is the Jamahiriya government, that the power belongs to the men and women of the Popular Conferences and the People's Committees in Libya. This Government by the People will never fail nor fall. It embodies the millions of Libyans and for that reason it can't fall. Anyone who says Qaddafi's government has fallen is nothing but ridiculous and a joke. Qaddafi doesn't have a government, therefore that government can't fall.
Qaddafi is out of power since 1977 when I have passed the power to the People's Committees of the Jamahiriya. When 2,000 tribes meet and declare that only the Libyan people represent Libya, doesn't that say enough?
This is the answer to NATO which has said the National Transitional Council from Benghazi represents the Libyan people. The Libyan people are here and they are with me, nobody can represent us. So no legitimacy to anything else or anyone else, the power belongs to the people. All Libyans are members of the People's Committees. Anything else is false.
What is happening now in Libya is a charade which can only take place because of the NATO air raids, which will not last forever. When they have left the traitors will be gone too. We are ready to die for the Power of the People. This is what we stand for and this is what our martyrs have been standing for."
Source
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Update on the Libyan civil war.
Sabha (major city in an oasis in the south): The traitors (NATO-mercenary-rebels), who entered the city without a fight, were lured into an ambush that will go down in history as a legendary achievement. The cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) served as strong inspiration for the defenders of the Jamahiriya.
The rebels who entered the city, were quickly rounded up and the others fled. There were 45 rebels killed, and hundreds taken as prisoners. Their flight took place amidst big confusion. The world media fail to report on this.
Tripoli: There is very bad news for the rebels in Tripoli. There are intense clashes happening in Tripoli every single day. Rebels are either killed or being kidnapped every day by the armed citizens who are furious at the mass murder, pillage and destruction caused by the lawless rebels (also known as rats) and their helping themselves at force to any house and its contents. The situation for the rebels is becoming more difficult, as the citizens of Tripoli who have put up with an unbearable life since the invasion, are resisting.
Al-Zhufrah: In al-Zhufrah, after NATO bombing ended, Libyan militias, along with the Libyan Defense Forces, attacked the camp of the rebels. Dozens of rebels were killed and many were wounded.
Source
I have been hearing reports in the mainstream that the southern city of Sabha had fallen, yet despite this huge victory the mainstream media has been strangely reluctant to report on it. There is also a telling lack of proof of the capture of Sabha.
It seems obvious to me that the claims of what is happening on the ground by mainstream media outlets is not accurate. Seriously how many times do the rebels need to make huge gains in Sirte? Its blatant propoganda to make us believe the 'revolution' is going well.
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You can't be serious. Your quote is rife with emotional pandering, not objective news value.
Compilation from various independent sources
Thank god he lists none.
Even the picture subtitle
Media hides: Rebels fell into trap at Sabha and were routed
is questionable. It's one thing not to report something and quite another to deliberately hide it.
All this said I read alot about rebel backlashes in my mainstream media.
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A piece of news which qualifies any of the two opposing sides as rats should not be taken seriously.
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On September 26 2011 00:22 Kukaracha wrote:
A piece of news which qualifies any of the two opposing sides as rats should not be taken seriously.
Haha, I'm going to have to agree with that. Sounds like qadaffis personal newspaper.
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That is because it is Gaddafi's personal propaganda website. Why anyone would post news from that site is beyond me. Seems he is another one of Gaddafi's online propaganda mercenaries.
In other news, Abu Salim massacre mass grave reported to be found. It has been known for a long time that in 1996 Gaddafi decided to massacre 1200 political prisoners. Many stories and rumors have gone around about it since then but little is known because of the nature of the regime of course.
Now it is claimed the mass grave has been found:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/25/libyan-mass-grave-abu-salim
Report from Human Rights Watch, probably more respected than Amnesty, on this massacre:
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/2006/06/28/libya13636.htm
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Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead.
Tripoli 'fell' a month ago, if the country is totally behind the NTC and most of it in its hands why has it not yet moved the capital to Tripoli like it said it would do weeks ago? Why have the rebels still not been able to form a government? Why is NATO still bombing Libya into the ground and is planning on extending the campaign for another three months?
What is being reported in the mainstream is not concurrent with the events on the ground and decisions being made by the major actors in this conflict.
Many of us have said since the beginning that Libya would degenerate into the bloody civil war that is currently occuring if the West got involved. You especially kukaracha posted pages of crap in support of the intervention. You were wrong, you are wrong, and the western mainstream media has been deliberately hiding the truth and fabricating stories to rouse support for the failed NATO 'intervention.'
I am not sure how much longer many of you can keep condemning the credibilty of these independant sources when the western mainstream is continually wrong. Time after time its stories are straight up lies, and yet still you convice yourselves that it is the only legitimate news source.
A massacre was not prevented as was the original reason pushed by the media to incure support for military action against a sovereign and DEMOCRATIC nation. Keep calling the Libyan Jamahiriya a dictatorship as the media does. This war is far from over regardless of what media says, and many of us on this forum have said as much since the beginning to the same slander and ridicule. Wake up and open your eyes.
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On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead.
Tripoli 'fell' a month ago, if the country is totally behind the NTC and most of it in its hands why has it not yet moved the capital to Tripoli like it said it would do weeks ago? Why have the rebels still not been able to form a government? Why is NATO still bombing Libya into the ground and is planning on extending the campaign for another three months?
What is being reported in the mainstream is not concurrent with the events on the ground and decisions being made by the major actors in this conflict.
Many of us have said since the beginning that Libya would degenerate into the bloody civil war that is currently occuring if the West got involved. You especially kukaracha posted pages of crap in support of the intervention. You were wrong, you are wrong, and the western mainstream media has been deliberately hiding the truth and fabricating stories to rouse support for the failed NATO 'intervention.'
I am not sure how much longer many of you can keep condemning the credibilty of these independant sources when the western mainstream is continually wrong. Time after time its stories are straight up lies, and yet still you convice yourselves that it is the only legitimate news source.
A massacre was not prevented as was the original reason pushed by the media to incure support for military action against a sovereign and DEMOCRATIC nation. Keep calling the Libyan Jamahiriya a dictatorship as the media does. This war is far from over regardless of what media says, and many of us on this forum have said as much since the beginning to the same slander and ridicule. Wake up and open your eyes.
I don't think many people here are disagreeing that the war has turned into a cluster fuck. I don't like the lies NATO is giving and I don't like war or violence. Pointing out how stupidly biased your articles you use doesn't equate to supporting what is happening over there.
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Updated Wikipedia maps of who controls what in Libya right now.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Libyan_Uprising.svg/616px-Libyan_Uprising.svg.png)
Brown = Cities under National Transitional Council control
Green = Cities under Muammar Gaddafi's control
Blue =Ongoing fighting
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Gulf_of_Sirt_Front.svg/800px-Gulf_of_Sirt_Front.svg.png) ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Tripolitanian_Front.svg/800px-Tripolitanian_Front.svg.png)
Red = Rebel Controlled
Green = Gadaffi Controlled
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God damn, it was a fucking dictatorship. Almost countries are dictatorships. Democracy is the exception. Have you no present or historical sense at all?
Before the so called arab spring, all those countries were NATO supported dictatorship. Egypt, Tunesia, Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia. Only exception is Syria.
And yes, the Libyan one was one of the cruelest. Libya is like the US of Africa. If you weren't born in 1998 maybe you would have known about Gaddafi and what he did. He supported one side in tons of African civil wars and conflicts. His biggest hobby is exactly what NATO did here; interfering in a civil war so the 'good' side wins, resulting in the conflict dragging on longer than it normally would and more casualties.
He supported terrorists movements all across the world. Maybe you know that the mad dog of the US, Reagan, once attacked him.
Gaddafi is fucking evil. The people revolted and it because a armed revolt very quickly. Gaddafi then unleashed his black African mercenaries, pilots ordered to bomb protesters flew their French build Mirages to Malta or crashed them into the ocean, etc etc.
Obviously Gaddafi was going to win because of all his western, Russian and Chinese weapons. We was going to crush and kill a lot of people, like he did before but now worse. Civilians asked for help from other countries, arab or western.
NATO wanted to hijack the arab spring and they did. But support for Gaddafi turned out to be much smaller than they must have believed when this started though their military strength probably a bit bigger.
What comes out of this is still to be seen. But many Libyans want to give their lives for freedom. This is how we got freedom in the west. normal people standing up against the elite, many dying and in the end civil liberties were won. Libyans are doing the same. Yes many died but many died because they were given the opportunity to do so. And many did because Gaddafi was loaded up on western NATO weapons as well as Chinese and Russian weapons.
So stfu immoral arab-haring Gaddafi mercenary. Go open a thread about Chinese and Russian support for Syria and US and EU support for Saubi Arabia and Bahrain, you hypocrite.
Enjoy your blood money, because that's what it is..
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lol @ Libya being a democracy.
Libya has been the archetype of a petrol-based dictatorship for decades.
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Yes, yes, I should know that I cannot trust the media, and should warn everyone in my family since we have a journalist among us. She is probably hiding the truth about her secret life as a secret agent right now. Oh, and I should warn my friend who is studying journalism that the CIA will soon abduct her and replace her with a remote-controlled robot if she doesn't quit that path.
After all, the medias of the secret country that is "the west" (I looked on the map but couldn't find it) are ALL corrupt and keep on spewing lies about the situation, hiding that there are millions of innocent babies being tortured right now by the evil rebels.
On a more serious note, how did they discover 1200 bodies? I mean, this isn't something you stumble upon. Was it a hidden cemetery? Did they excavate all of the bodies? Or do they suppose that there are 1200 bodies there?
Oh, and about that "conservative estimation of 60 000 civilian deaths", it's actually 1% of the Libyan population. For the record, the Spanish Civil war of 1936-1939 saw 2% of the population die, and it was a very violent conflict with mass executions, foreign intervention on the ground and heavy use of Stukas on the German side. History always helps to realize how unlikely certain assumptions are...
So, 60 000 civilians dead with no foreign troops on the ground, a massive exodus to peaceful lands, and a low population density per km²... no, just no.
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On September 26 2011 00:07 Aurocaido wrote:Update on the Libyan civil war. Show nested quote +
Sabha (major city in an oasis in the south): The traitors (NATO-mercenary-rebels), who entered the city without a fight, were lured into an ambush that will go down in history as a legendary achievement. The cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) served as strong inspiration for the defenders of the Jamahiriya.
The rebels who entered the city, were quickly rounded up and the others fled. There were 45 rebels killed, and hundreds taken as prisoners. Their flight took place amidst big confusion. The world media fail to report on this.
Tripoli: There is very bad news for the rebels in Tripoli. There are intense clashes happening in Tripoli every single day. Rebels are either killed or being kidnapped every day by the armed citizens who are furious at the mass murder, pillage and destruction caused by the lawless rebels (also known as rats) and their helping themselves at force to any house and its contents. The situation for the rebels is becoming more difficult, as the citizens of Tripoli who have put up with an unbearable life since the invasion, are resisting.
Al-Zhufrah: In al-Zhufrah, after NATO bombing ended, Libyan militias, along with the Libyan Defense Forces, attacked the camp of the rebels. Dozens of rebels were killed and many were wounded.
SourceI have been hearing reports in the mainstream that the southern city of Sabha had fallen, yet despite this huge victory the mainstream media has been strangely reluctant to report on it. There is also a telling lack of proof of the capture of Sabha. It seems obvious to me that the claims of what is happening on the ground by mainstream media outlets is not accurate. Seriously how many times do the rebels need to make huge gains in Sirte? Its blatant propoganda to make us believe the 'revolution' is going well.
It says "Canada" next to your name.
How can you possibly be born in a western country and fall for the most simple minded propaganda, the straight forward almost North-Korean approach of just making up the most ludicrous stories as long as they support the one side.
If you have received even the most basic of history lessons you must have at some point received a lesson on judging sources on how reliable they are.
Do you seriously believe that any source wich has this in it
The traitors (NATO-mercenary-rebels), who entered the city without a fight, were lured into an ambush that will go down in history as a legendary achievement.
If i took this piece to children aged 12ish and asked them wether that source is reliable or not reliable they would universally declare it an unreliable source.
You didn't grow up in some totalitarian regime, what possible excuse do you have for blindly falling into some of the most obvious Gaddaffi propaganda there is?
You have this dellusion that the mainstream media is corrupt so you turn to the state newspaper of a totalitarian regime? If you just sat in a room making stuff up you would get closer to the truth then following a state newspaper.
It's disturbing that there are people like you who are unable to pierce through obvious falsehoods and as a result end up zealously defending totalitarian regimes. You would do well to educate yourself better. Your failed understanding is not just making you look the fool, it's making you side with sick dicators.
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On September 26 2011 04:32 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 00:07 Aurocaido wrote:Update on the Libyan civil war.
Sabha (major city in an oasis in the south): The traitors (NATO-mercenary-rebels), who entered the city without a fight, were lured into an ambush that will go down in history as a legendary achievement. The cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) served as strong inspiration for the defenders of the Jamahiriya.
The rebels who entered the city, were quickly rounded up and the others fled. There were 45 rebels killed, and hundreds taken as prisoners. Their flight took place amidst big confusion. The world media fail to report on this.
Tripoli: There is very bad news for the rebels in Tripoli. There are intense clashes happening in Tripoli every single day. Rebels are either killed or being kidnapped every day by the armed citizens who are furious at the mass murder, pillage and destruction caused by the lawless rebels (also known as rats) and their helping themselves at force to any house and its contents. The situation for the rebels is becoming more difficult, as the citizens of Tripoli who have put up with an unbearable life since the invasion, are resisting.
Al-Zhufrah: In al-Zhufrah, after NATO bombing ended, Libyan militias, along with the Libyan Defense Forces, attacked the camp of the rebels. Dozens of rebels were killed and many were wounded.
SourceI have been hearing reports in the mainstream that the southern city of Sabha had fallen, yet despite this huge victory the mainstream media has been strangely reluctant to report on it. There is also a telling lack of proof of the capture of Sabha. It seems obvious to me that the claims of what is happening on the ground by mainstream media outlets is not accurate. Seriously how many times do the rebels need to make huge gains in Sirte? Its blatant propoganda to make us believe the 'revolution' is going well. It says "Canada" next to your name. How can you possibly be born in a western country and fall for the most simple minded propaganda, the straight forward almost North-Korean approach of just making up the most ludicrous stories as long as they support the one side. If you have received even the most basic of history lessons you must have at some point received a lesson on judging sources on how reliable they are. Do you seriously believe that any source wich has this in it Show nested quote +The traitors (NATO-mercenary-rebels), who entered the city without a fight, were lured into an ambush that will go down in history as a legendary achievement. If i took this piece to children aged 12ish and asked them wether that source is reliable or not reliable they would universally declare it an unreliable source. You didn't grow up in some totalitarian regime, what possible excuse do you have for blindly falling into some of the most obvious Gaddaffi propaganda there is? You have this dellusion that the mainstream media is corrupt so you turn to the state newspaper of a totalitarian regime? If you just sat in a room making stuff up you would get closer to the truth then following a state newspaper. It's disturbing that there are people like you who are unable to pierce through obvious falsehoods and as a result end up zealously defending totalitarian regimes. You would do well to educate yourself better. Your failed understanding is not just making you look the fool, it's making you side with sick dicators.
Say what you want about the sources that I post, the information in them makes sense when compared to the decisions made by the NTC and NATO. If Bani Walid and Sirte are the only two cities holding out why is NATO still required? It isn't. The NTC has yet to move to Tripoli like they said they would do weeks ago. It doesn't make any sense.
Every single article I read from the mainstream media contains huge amounts of blatantly inflamatory language. Almost every one concerning Bani Walid and Sirte contain 'they are using human sheilds' or 'they are fighting from public places so we are afraid to engage' or 'the people are being held hostage.' If the population did not support Gaddafi these cities would have fallen long ago considering the vast superiority of men, weapons, and NATO bombardments.
And fyi I just finished a bachelor degree in politics (international relations) with a minor in history. I know how to critique sources, but I also know how to think critically and independantly. In my globalization seminar we discussed the situation in Libya extensively and the way the media is reporting it. What is being reported and what is taking place does not add up. I'm sorry.
And Suisen, Gaddafi online mercenaries? Again? I am seriously starting to think you're a little slow.
And for the rest, immediately resorting to slander and ridicule does not help your side.
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On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war
Oh you and your facts!
On September 26 2011 04:49 Aurocaido wrote:And fyi I just finished a bachelor degree in politics (international relations) with a minor in history. I know how to critique sources, but I also know how to think critically and independantly. In my globalization seminar we discussed the situation in Libya extensively and the way the media is reporting it. What is being reported and what is taking place does not add up. I'm sorry.
Are you sure you didn't completely fail your classes? I'm studying political science as well, but I try to, you know, relate to facts rather than reinforce whatever I want to be true.
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On September 26 2011 04:55 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_warOh you and your facts!
Stop using Wikipedia, its shit. You harp on me because of sources and then post Wikipedia. Unbelievable.
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On September 26 2011 04:57 Aurocaido wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 04:55 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_warOh you and your facts! Stop using Wikipedia, its shit. You harp on me because of sources and then post Wikipedia. Unbelievable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war#Deaths_overall
Why don't you press the link and then tell me that they're all just making shit up. After you've done that, why don't you post from mathaba with some "real" figures? Or any other place that just randomly pulls figures (and "facts") out of their ass.
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On September 26 2011 05:03 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 04:57 Aurocaido wrote:On September 26 2011 04:55 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_warOh you and your facts! Stop using Wikipedia, its shit. You harp on me because of sources and then post Wikipedia. Unbelievable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war#Deaths_overallWhy don't you press the link and then tell me that they're all just making shit up. After you've done that, why don't you post from mathaba with some "real" figures? Or any other place that just randomly pulls figures (and "facts") out of their ass.
I am not the one going around condemning sources. In almost all of my politics classes any mention of Wikipedia was an automatic zero on any paper I wrote. You keep denouncing my sources then post Wikipedia. Thats hypocritical.
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On September 26 2011 05:06 Aurocaido wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 05:03 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 04:57 Aurocaido wrote:On September 26 2011 04:55 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_warOh you and your facts! Stop using Wikipedia, its shit. You harp on me because of sources and then post Wikipedia. Unbelievable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war#Deaths_overallWhy don't you press the link and then tell me that they're all just making shit up. After you've done that, why don't you post from mathaba with some "real" figures? Or any other place that just randomly pulls figures (and "facts") out of their ass. I am not the one going around condemning sources. In almost all of my politics classes any mention of Wikipedia was an automatic zero on any paper I wrote. You keep denouncing my sources then post Wikipedia. Thats hypocritical.
You fail to realize that wikipedia is a composition of different sources. The figures they quote (the ones linked above) come from different institutions and organizations. I would never use wikipedia as a source in a paper. I'm also not making a specific claim, I'm just pointing you in a general direction and giving you the general estimates for the death toll of the Libyan conflict - which is nowhere near your "conservative estimate" of 60 000.
Edit: So stop fucking addressing the fact that they're complied on wikipedia and refute the actual numbers instead or, alternatively, just admit defeat.
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On September 26 2011 05:06 Aurocaido wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 05:03 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 04:57 Aurocaido wrote:On September 26 2011 04:55 HellRoxYa wrote:On September 26 2011 03:44 Aurocaido wrote:
Haha ok you all seem to forget the original impitous for the NATO bombardment was to protect civilians. 'To prevent a massacre' was the rational. Now the war is entering its eigth month soon, with conservative estimates of over 60,000 Libyan civilians dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_warOh you and your facts! Stop using Wikipedia, its shit. You harp on me because of sources and then post Wikipedia. Unbelievable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war#Deaths_overallWhy don't you press the link and then tell me that they're all just making shit up. After you've done that, why don't you post from mathaba with some "real" figures? Or any other place that just randomly pulls figures (and "facts") out of their ass. I am not the one going around condemning sources. In almost all of my politics classes any mention of Wikipedia was an automatic zero on any paper I wrote. You keep denouncing my sources then post Wikipedia. Thats hypocritical.
Most teachers used to think that Wikipedia was a completely worthless source because "it could be edited by anyone"
Once they realized that there was a "references" section on the bottom of the page and that the site made it very clear when there wasn't a valid source, the reasonable ones changed their minds.
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EPT
