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Zurich15324 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:54 Sobba wrote:
That so many propose Rommel is sad. Rommel was insanely hyped by the german propaganda machine to be some miracle general. He was probably not bad, but far from the best ever. His achivements are losing the battle for Africa and losing the battle for Normandie. Ofcourse the losses are not his fault alone but you cant name him greatest general ever with his history.
The germans had a lot of great commanders during WW2. But in my mind the most famous should be Heinz Guderian who developt the german version of Blitzkrieg that surely got them as far as they got. He lead the spearhead into the ardennes in the first french campaign, and was one of few generals who could speak his mind to Hitler without beeing dismissed. He was (in my mind) without a doubt the greatest Panzer general of all time. But its hard to say greatest overall ever.
But anyone claiming Rommel does not know any ww2 history.
So true. And more, Guderian's accomplishments go way further than WW2. He defined modern warfare. To this very day armies from the US to Eritrea operate under the principles developed by Guderian some 80 years ago.
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Napoleon!
He rose from practically nothing to self-proclaimed Emperor of France because he was a great general and politician.
His ambitions were so great that it ultimately was what made him fall, like a lot of other great generals/monarchs.
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If you are searching for greatest general of all time you need to check general Vladimir Vazov
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/ImageVladimir_Vazov.jpg/200px-ImageVladimir_Vazov.jpg)
The most successful pages of his biography were written during the First World War. On 1 of March he took the command of the 9th Pleven Infantry Division which was part of the First Bulgarian Army. Beginning in 1916 the division occupied a stretch of the Macedonian Front between the river Vardar and lake Dojran.
As soon as he was appointed he inspected the entire section of the front that was under his command and took measures to strengthen and fortify it. Under his guidance the forced were deployed in order to create a defence in depth.
His efforts to improve the positions were soon tested during the Second Battle of Doiran between 22 and 26 of April 1917. Some 86 heavy and 74 field British guns bombarded the line with more than 100,000 shells but caused insignificant damage and the following infantry attack suffered a heavy defeat. In early May the British resumed their assault but were again defeated and suffered heavy casualties. Following this attack the Bulgarian 34th Troyan Regiment alone buried the bodies of some 2,290 Allied officers and soldiers. Due to his significant contribution for the victory on 20 of May 1917 Vladimir Vazov was promoted to major general.
The location of the Doiran Sector was crucial as it represented the shortest possible route to the valley of the Vardar and during the summer of 1918 its the defence was expanded to consisted of for lines arrayed in depth. Hence it was much better prepared to face an attack than the previous year.
When the Allied Vardar Offensive began the British and two Greek divisions once again attacked the 9th Pleven Division at Doiran. During this Third Battle of Doiran the Allies once again enjoyed significant advantage in firepower and manpower, being able to bombard the Bulgarian position with over 300,000 ordinary and gas shells. Despite this the damage to the fortifications was limited and the fighting again resulted in a decisive Bulgarian victory. According to official British sources the Allied losses totalled just over 7,000. Bulgarian sources however report a figure of over 11,000.
Among the most notable moments of Vladimir Vazov’s life was his visit to England in 1936. The British legion celebrated the British victory in World War I. The British veterans invited one of their worthiest opponents on the battlefield. He was personally greeted by Lord Milne, who shook his hand with the words "It is a pleasure to meet the Bulgarian delegation, as even though we were enemies, you - like us - fought not only like brave men, but also like gentlemen." The British paid great honour to General Vazov as they lowered their national flags in his name. The chairman of the British legion Major Goldy said in his speech: “He is one of the few foreign officers whose name features in our history”.
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sorry, but hate those threads... just because we all love RTS games doesn't mean we should worship those people, because they are (at least in parts) responsible for many deaths. People even posted Hitler, which offends me so much (Shrinky Dink, particularly you, I'd love to punch you in your dumbass face, for real)... You know, what we do is playing games, but you should never forget how dreadful war is.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 05 2011 17:15 Creager wrote:
sorry, but hate those threads... just because we all love RTS games doesn't mean we should worship those people, because they are (at least in parts) responsible for many deaths. People even posted Hitler, which offends me so much (Shrinky Dink, particularly you, I'd love to punch you in your dumbass face, for real)... You know, what we do is playing games, but you should never forget how dreadful war is.
Don't like it, don't read. Just to annoy you I'm gonna mention that Hitler took a broken and poor Germany and turned it into the most effective fighting army the world had ever seen and conqured 90% of Europe in about 2 years. Napoleon Bonaparte is the only guy that can claim the same feet.
Hitler is ofcourse the worlds second most evil human to ever live(Stalin gets number one I think). No amount of anything will ever change that.
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On August 05 2011 16:22 zatic wrote:
So true. And more, Guderian's accomplishments go way further than WW2. He defined modern warfare. To this very day armies from the US to Eritrea operate under the principles developed by Guderian some 80 years ago.
And where did Guderian get most of his ideas from? Liddell Hart and Marshal Tukhachevsky.
DarkEnergy wrote:
that he had great charisma and got the country back on track by rallying the whole of Germany. Yes he should be respected for that. but his knowledge of war, strategy and tactics where horrible.
his decision to start an offensive against Russia creating 2 fronts was a fatal mistake.
It has been said that the greatest general of the allies was Adolf Hitler.
nuff said.
Well for WW2 for Allies Patton and for the Axis forces i must say Rommel.
I really don't know where to start with this. Anyone who seriously believes that Hitler got Germany 'back on track' is either deluded or hasn't actually bothered to do any research or proper study into the economic situation of Germany prior to the start of WW2.
The war was lost as soon as it was started. Just look at the economic factors.
The Third Reichs rearmament program was beginning to get slowed by 1938 because of the mishandling of the economy.
Schachts New Plan had been abandoned in 1936 because his system of trade could not bring in the needed raw materials to sustain the rapid rearmament.
Between 1936-38 domestic production increased by 1 million tonnes, 1/10th of imports and in the same period increased production of synthetic rubber by 11,00 tonnes, 12% of imports.
One of the main reason behind the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia was to address the shortage of raw materials (Hitlers conference in the Reich chancellery November 5 1937).
Before the annexation of the above countries Germany had acute labour shortages and in 1938 only 3 months of gasoline stockpiled.
All of the problems experienced by Germany during this time was a direct consequence of the rapid rearmament and the four year plan.
Why do you think Schacht resigned in 1937?
Inflation caused by the printing of money to cover the arms expenditure and the rapid exhaustion of Germany's hard currency reserves.
Between April-August 1938 the German stock market fell by 13%, the Finance Minister Schwerin von Krosigk and Schacht both warned Hitler that he was bringing on an inflationary crisis.
I could go on and on and on, but I find it quite tiresome trawling through my vast collection of books to find such details.
And as to your choices of best commander, it is just insulting to the likes of General Slim and Marshall Konstantin Rokossovsky and on the Axis side Kesslering, von Mantueffel and Gille.
It is truly sad how many misconceptions are held in the public consciousness as truth when they are absurd.
Like Stalin didn't realise an attack was coming or Chamberlain is a retard for appeasement etc etc.
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Don't really see how you can go past Genghis Khan. Napolean is basically a pindick compared to big Temujin.
Genghis was left to die in the harsh Mongolian wilderness, and almost did. He started from absolutely nothing, not even shelter and I'm not sure if he was even a teenager yet? He then took systematically united all of the tribes of Mongolia, starting from not even having one. That beats Napolean off the bat.
Then despite the enormous knowledge gap in both technology and tactics and resource gap in simply.. population and equipment, he managed to roflstomp both China and Persia, the two biggest empires out. Then his generals, son and grandsons just continued smashing anything they came into contact with..
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Guan Yu is up there,
but, as I am Australian, I have to put up Sir General Monash, basically won half of world war 1 for the English, Americans and Australians.
He revolutionized trench warfare
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Zurich15324 Posts
On September 05 2011 17:42 kobrakai wrote:
Like Stalin didn't realise an attack was coming or Chamberlain is a retard for appeasement etc etc.
It is very well documented that Stalin could and in fast should have realized it. However he refused to. His entire intelligence staff was positive of the attack down to the date it was supposed to happen, but they just couldn't convince Stalin. It goes as far as they were desperately creating fake agents and fake reports from Germany just to make the truth they knew about the attack more believable to Stalin.
So yeah, he should have realized, but you can't really say he did.
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On September 05 2011 18:19 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 17:42 kobrakai wrote:
Like Stalin didn't realise an attack was coming or Chamberlain is a retard for appeasement etc etc.
It is very well documented that Stalin could and in fast should have realized it. However he refused to. His entire intelligence staff was positive of the attack down to the date it was supposed to happen, but they just couldn't convince Stalin. It goes as far as they were desperately creating fake agents and fake reports from Germany just to make the truth they knew about the attack more believable to Stalin. So yeah, he should have realized, but you can't really say he did.
If I remember correctly, Stalin was also convinced the UK was lying to him about their intelligence that Germany would invade in order to push the Soviet Union into the war against Germany prematurely. He knew an attack would come, but never expected it so soon.
He also ignored his spy in Japan (I forget his name) who had sent in a near perfect date.
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Napleon.
And in ww2, only winter saved Sovjet. Prove me wrong
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On August 05 2011 16:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:54 Sobba wrote:
That so many propose Rommel is sad. Rommel was insanely hyped by the german propaganda machine to be some miracle general. He was probably not bad, but far from the best ever. His achivements are losing the battle for Africa and losing the battle for Normandie. Ofcourse the losses are not his fault alone but you cant name him greatest general ever with his history.
The germans had a lot of great commanders during WW2. But in my mind the most famous should be Heinz Guderian who developt the german version of Blitzkrieg that surely got them as far as they got. He lead the spearhead into the ardennes in the first french campaign, and was one of few generals who could speak his mind to Hitler without beeing dismissed. He was (in my mind) without a doubt the greatest Panzer general of all time. But its hard to say greatest overall ever.
But anyone claiming Rommel does not know any ww2 history. So true. And more, Guderian's accomplishments go way further than WW2. He defined modern warfare. To this very day armies from the US to Eritrea operate under the principles developed by Guderian some 80 years ago.
IMO some Nazi generals were at least slightly better than allied generals
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It's hard to define the greatest. As all the candidates lived in different ages, different places, and so on. However, for me, note that this is subjective, the greatest general of all times would be Khalid ibn al Waleed.
That man, it is said, has never lost a battle in his life and he took part in more than hundred. He managed to defeat the biggest powers at that time, the Persian and Byzantine Empire, with an army that was poorly equipped and were few in numbers. He was the one who brought and end to the first, while the latter has never managed to retake its lost territories in the Middle East.
He is known for this saying: ''When I am in the battlefield, I love it more then when I am in my house.''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid
However i bet the majority of you never heard of him, because as usual these kinds of threads treat only the West and Far East generals, rarely the Arab and Islamic ones.
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On September 05 2011 18:54 nymfaw wrote:
Napleon.
And in ww2, only winter saved Sovjet. Prove me wrong
You are wrong. Source? Most every historian. Try Glantz.
For every division the Soviets lost in '41, they raised two or three. German leadership went through hilarious rationalizations as they realized their strategy was failing within months; that the Soviets were launching large counterattacks to delay advance and that they had failed to destroy the Red Army before they could get over the Dnieper.
This argument is hilarious anyway; only the ocean saved the USA & UK from invasion when they were completely demobilized. Prove me wrong.
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On September 05 2011 17:15 Creager wrote:
sorry, but hate those threads... just because we all love RTS games doesn't mean we should worship those people, because they are (at least in parts) responsible for many deaths. People even posted Hitler, which offends me so much (Shrinky Dink, particularly you, I'd love to punch you in your dumbass face, for real)... You know, what we do is playing games, but you should never forget how dreadful war is.
This is a totally wrong view of 'the soldier' in almost every way. Let me remind you, that it is NOT the generals who start wars. It's the governments, emperors and/or any other head(s) of state in 95% of the cases. So any anti-war sentiments are best aimed at them.
If anything, one should be glad there are great generals to lead armies, who knows how many more lives would have been lost if they were led solely by incompetent fools (which also happens way too often).
/endrant
On-topic:
Since it is impossible to create a definitive 'best of' list and I generally resent this type of listing, I do have some favorite military commanders.
My top five would look like this:
1: Napoleon:
- the inventor of the Grande Armee: The first implementation of Levee en Masse (early form of conscription)
- And tied to that: The first commander to actually, succesfully, put into use the military order of battle (the first use of the Army Corps and Army as organic structures) as a forerunner to the modern army structures as seen around the world today.
- Also the first commander who made it possible for his armies to operate regardless of the seasons, thanks to the successful implementation of a central supply system across his empire.
- Besides all this, he was also a brilliant strategist and is considered to be the primary example of a military genius.
2: General major Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck: the German commander in the African theater during WWI. He has never been defeated in combat and is one of the key figures in the development of modern guerrilla warfare.
3: General Maurits van Nassau, Prince of Orange: One of the major contributors to the military revolution (1550-1560), the inventor of the basic 'drill' exercises and small scale tactics around 1600 (the first soldier handbook ever was created on his orders. Consisting of pictures only, to show the soldiers how their drills should be executed, as almost every soldier was illiterate. Only one copy of that book is known to have survived and is on display at the Royal Netherlands Military Academy). Also a great field commander to boot.
4: Lieutenant-Admiral Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter: a merchant-turned-Admiral in service of the Dutch Republic. He defeated the Royal Navy up to four times as the Commander of the Dutch fleet. His biggest success was the 'Raid of the Medway' during the 2nd Dutch-Anglo war, when he sailed up the Thames up to Chatham, where he wrecked 13 major vessels and large portions of the port's infrastructure, including the flagship HMS Royal Charles, ending the war in favor for the Dutch.
5: General Feldmarshall Erich von Manstein: one of the major proponents of mobile warfare during WWII. The creator of the final adaptation of the 'Schlieffen-plan' which directly led to the success of 'Fall Gelb' (invasion of France and the Low Countries). His brilliance was to be used to its fullest extent as the commander of the 11th army, during its conquest of the Crimea (autumn '41). His greatest achievement however was his performance as the commander of the Don/South army group on the eastern front. Where he managed to pull off a strategic withdrawal of epic proportions over the span of 2 years and roughly 1.200km. Against overwhelming odds varying from rougly 1: 7 (1942) to 1:12 (1944) and under agonizing restrictions set upon him and his fellow commanders by Hitler.
If you're a military enthusiast and you have not read his memoirs yet, I strongly recommend it: 'Lost Victories'.
Miggs
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On September 05 2011 19:03 Miggins wrote:
General Feldmarshall Erich von Manstein: one of the major proponents of mobile
Don't forget his brilliance after the disaster at Stalingrad; especially his counter stroke that culminated in the Third Battle of Kharkov and set the stage for Kursk. The Wehrmact was nearly routed before his counterattack - much by choice, the officers were overly timid in committing the panzer armies - but nearly nonetheless.
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I haven't read the whole thread, and I don't know how far back people are supposed to go, but I'd go with Hannibal. If we are talking about 20th Century Generals, then I think it would have to be Guderian and von Manstein. The WW2 German Army had some fantastic commanders.
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I would have to go with Alexander the Great.
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![[image loading]](http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n202/laszmosis/Screenshot2011-09-05at82236PM.png)
The greatest General of all time, by far.
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EPT
