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Great Military leaders of History? - Page 40

Forum Index > General Forum
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UnholyGregor
Profile Joined January 2011
111 Posts
August 04 2011 18:21 GMT
#781
general mustard
EG fighting
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 18:37:08
August 04 2011 18:31 GMT
#782
However, in terms of actual accomplishments, the man may not quite live up to his reputation. While an aggressive and capable commander, he tended to be abrasive, intolerant, unteachable and rash to the point of foolhardiness, which might be one of the reasons he was defeated by the British in North Africa not once, but twice (the first time at the hands of British General Auchinleck, the second time by Montgomery) and finally pushed off the continent. Afterwards given the task of securing the French coastline from allied invasion (the Atlantic Wall) he oversaw the construction of a formidable barrier of bunkers and gun emplacements that prevented the allies from taking the beaches at Normandy on June 6, 1944 for about half an hour or so, thereby demonstrating the futility of depending on fixed defenses to stop invasions (a lesson the Germans should have remembered from France’s futile efforts to hold the Maginot Line in 1940).


There's a couple things wrong with this:

Auchinleck never beat Rommel. He finally got the point where he'd retreated so far that Rommel's tactical brilliance could no longer compensate for the fact that he had badly stretched his supply lines and he was getting the short end of the logistical stick from Germany anyway. Rommel did make several mistakes being overaggressive, like in the first assault on Tobruk.

Rommel only lost his offensive war in North Africa after Britain sent not one, but two major armies to Egypt, mostly equipped by the Americans, with materiel resources Rommel could not match. The British Empire put almost all of its land military strength into keeping Egypt out of German hands and even then it barely held on.

He also was relieved of command before Africa fell and the Axis defensive strategy was changed to one of major local counterattacks that Rommel disagreed with.

Again in France, Rommel wanted to keep full tank divisions within 20 miles of the beaches so as to be able to counterattack the Allied beachheads within hours. Hitler, with no experience of the power of Allied air attacks and their ability to disrupt ground operations, disagreed. Rommel knew what it was like to try to move an army whose enemy has near-complete air superiority. The argument was still ongoing when Rommel was badly wounded when his command car was shot up by an Allied fighter-bomber. He was already in a bad odor for disagreeing with Hitler so the tanks stayed more than 50 miles away from the coast and they never had a chance to counterattack the beachheads.

Rommel also recommended not defending the lower half of Italy from Allied invasion and instead putting up defensive positions north of Rome along almost the identical terrain that later became the Gustav Line, the one that held the Allies up from fully conquering Italy until the year after the invasion.

Erwin Rommel was a divisional commander on par with Vespasian and an army commander at the level of a Sherman. However, he wasn't so great at controlling multiple armies and was not a man with a head for logistics. But in North Africa the only choice was try to win as quickly as possible or inevitably lose, if Rommel had been properly supported by Berlin he probably would have taken Egypt well before the second army (with 300 brand spanking new Sherman tanks) that beat him at El Alamein arrived.

But I think the greatest modern general is either U.S. Grant or Max Hoffman. Both were geniuses at maneuvering their armies in ways that either fooled the enemy or left him in no position to successfully halt their movements, which is basically auto-win in war.

The greatest general? John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough. Ramillies, Oudenarde, Malplaquet, Blenheim, the siege of Lille, the breaking of the Ne Plus Ultra lines, the man was a military god. He never commanded a battle he didn't win and never besieged a city he did not successfully capture. And he was doing this while commanding a polyglot British-Dutch-German army that was almost always outnumbered by the French of Louis XIV.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 18:41:30
August 04 2011 18:34 GMT
#783
On August 05 2011 01:52 nArAnjO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 13:40 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 13:29 nArAnjO wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:12 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:07 nArAnjO wrote:
On April 29 2011 03:25 jcarlson08 wrote:
On February 15 2011 15:36 HansMoleman wrote:
War is wrong. The real question is, "Who is the best mass murderer?".


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

~John Stuart Mill



Thats a retarded quote, it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Just the mention of patriotic feelings amuses me, it's just imaginary lines, we are all born in the same planet.


It has also been shown numerous times that fights end fights.



Didn't know we had no fights anymore! cool


Right, 'cause God forbid there be fights starting that are completely unrelated to the ones finished (in whatever fashion).

Honestly.



Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

Vote goes for Alexander.


Man, I can't believe this is even being debated.

Many societies for many, many years, have been well aware of the horrors of war - and violence in general. Even "warring" societies (I use the term loosely) knew full well the cost of violence and how it affected families, loved ones, even the state. Rare (though not unheard of) in history has anyone ever advocated violence for the sake of violence, or for the sake of getting what you want because it's the better option; even in ancient times, war was far more costly than diplomacy. The pacifist viewpoint you're offering isn't new, and if it was that easy, there would be no wars. Period.

At the end of the day, though, violence exists - it always has, and it probably always will. You can educate until the cows come home - as many have done for millenia - and violence will likely still exist. You can ascribe to the peaceful ideology that "wouldn't it be better if..." and think that all violence is bad in and of itself, and totally (always?) unnecessary; but I have to respectfully disagree with that viewpoint. While I dislike the idea of war, hurting people, or violence in general, sometimes, these things are (have been) necessary.

Violence has - numerous times - protected those who needed protection and saved lives when diplomacy has failed - whether on the level of state or individuals.

Nobody here is praising violence for it's own sake (and I certainly hope you don't think I am) but it cannot be questioned that there are times when there is no other option - no matter how much any of us wish there to be. They think it's necessary in the same way it's necessary to defend yourself when someone starts punching you in the face. There's a huge difference from what you're implying both in terms of practice and theory.

Yes, violence and war is bad - we all know this; but when you come into a thread about the greatest general of all time and tell us that:

...it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Then you're probably expecting the replies you've received already.

Fights do not only lead to more fights, history illustrates this. Sometimes fights unify and resolve issues. Hell, someone could even make a great argument that pacifist "solutions" result in more conflict. Of course there are better ways to solve problems than violent fighting - but what people here are saying is that you can't always resort to those alternatives, and again, history illustrates this. So to throw a blanket statement that John Stuart Mill's quote is "retarded" while implying that all violence is a useless and troglodytic behaviour comes across as myopic, wishful thinking, and probably insulting to some people reading this - as if they don't already understand that war is bad.

Yes, the world would be better "if" there were no violence, but that just isn't the case - yet.

TL:DR version:

Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

If you can make that happen, good on you. People have been trying for millenia and violence still exists.

Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

Of course I do; I'm sure everyone here would like a totally peaceful world. I disagree with the last part of your quote but that's a lengthy debate I'm sure neither of us care to indulge.

I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

People knew better 3000 years ago. If you can snap your fingers and make us all realize the folly of our ways now, more power to you.

Vote goes for Alexander.

Agreed.

EDIT: Typo.
yeahsc2
Profile Joined January 2011
Serbia38 Posts
August 04 2011 18:37 GMT
#784
Serbian generals from WW 1
Cush
Profile Joined September 2010
United States646 Posts
August 04 2011 18:45 GMT
#785
On August 04 2011 19:05 jhNz wrote:
Tsing Shi Tao

[image loading]

his nuketanks were imba ;/

Holy shit, Zero Hour was the best. Nuke General FTW.

My #1 would be Washington or Alexander the Great
"That's not your main base Stardust.....Stardust.....that's not your main" Sayle
DarkEnergy
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands542 Posts
August 04 2011 18:58 GMT
#786
On February 15 2011 13:53 Shrinky Dink wrote:
[image loading]

Seriously though, if you look past the horrors he did, he was actually an excellent speaker, with his war machine being responsible for some of the greatest advances in technology and science, and recovered his country's extreme deficit in its economy at the time (following the Treaty of Versailles).

I know it's obviously that he wasn't the greatest of all time, but IMO he is very underrated as a leader for his country since everyone looks at his cons.


that he had great charisma and got the country back on track by rallying the whole of Germany. Yes he should be respected for that. but his knowledge of war, strategy and tactics where horrible.
his decision to start an offensive against Russia creating 2 fronts was a fatal mistake.

It has been said that the greatest general of the allies was Adolf Hitler.
nuff said.

Well for WW2 for Allies Patton and for the Axis forces i must say Rommel.
Thats right stimmed marines can outrun aeroplanes.Tasteless
nArAnjO
Profile Joined October 2002
Peru2571 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 19:23:48
August 04 2011 18:59 GMT
#787
On August 05 2011 03:34 Mjolnir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 01:52 nArAnjO wrote:
On August 04 2011 13:40 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 13:29 nArAnjO wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:12 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:07 nArAnjO wrote:
On April 29 2011 03:25 jcarlson08 wrote:
On February 15 2011 15:36 HansMoleman wrote:
War is wrong. The real question is, "Who is the best mass murderer?".


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

~John Stuart Mill



Thats a retarded quote, it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Just the mention of patriotic feelings amuses me, it's just imaginary lines, we are all born in the same planet.


It has also been shown numerous times that fights end fights.



Didn't know we had no fights anymore! cool


Right, 'cause God forbid there be fights starting that are completely unrelated to the ones finished (in whatever fashion).

Honestly.



Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

Vote goes for Alexander.


Man, I can't believe this is even being debated.

Many societies for many, many years, have been well aware of the horrors of war - and violence in general. Even "warring" societies (I use the term loosely) knew full well the cost of violence and how it affected families, loved ones, even the state. Rare (though not unheard of) in history has anyone ever advocated violence for the sake of violence, or for the sake of getting what you want because it's the better option; even in ancient times, war was far more costly than diplomacy. The pacifist viewpoint you're offering isn't new, and if it was that easy, there would be no wars. Period.

At the end of the day, though, violence exists - it always has, and it probably always will. You can educate until the cows come home - as many have done for millenia - and violence will likely still exist. You can ascribe to the peaceful ideology that "wouldn't it be better if..." and think that all violence is bad in and of itself, and totally (always?) unnecessary; but I have to respectfully disagree with that viewpoint. While I dislike the idea of war, hurting people, or violence in general, sometimes, these things are (have been) necessary.

Violence has - numerous times - protected those who needed protection and saved lives when diplomacy has failed - whether on the level of state or individuals.

Nobody here is praising violence for it's own sake (and I certainly hope you don't think I am) but it cannot be questioned that there are times when there is no other option - no matter how much any of us wish there to be. They think it's necessary in the same way it's necessary to defend yourself when someone starts punching you in the face. There's a huge difference from what you're implying both in terms of practice and theory.

Yes, violence and war is bad - we all know this; but when you come into a thread about the greatest general of all time and tell us that:

Show nested quote +
...it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Then you're probably expecting the replies you've received already.

Fights do not only lead to more fights, history illustrates this. Sometimes fights unify and resolve issues. Hell, someone could even make a great argument that pacifist "solutions" result in more conflict. Of course there are better ways to solve problems than violent fighting - but what people here are saying is that you can't always resort to those alternatives, and again, history illustrates this. So to throw a blanket statement that John Stuart Mill's quote is "retarded" while implying that all violence is a useless and troglodytic behaviour comes across as myopic, wishful thinking, and probably insulting to some people reading this - as if they don't already understand that war is bad.

Yes, the world would be better "if" there were no violence, but that just isn't the case - yet.

TL:DR version:

Show nested quote +
Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

If you can make that happen, good on you. People have been trying for millenia and violence still exists.

Show nested quote +
Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

Of course I do; I'm sure everyone here would like a totally peaceful world. I disagree with the last part of your quote but that's a lengthy debate I'm sure neither of us care to indulge.

Show nested quote +
I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

People knew better 3000 years ago. If you can snap your fingers and make us all realize the folly of our ways now, more power to you.

Show nested quote +
Vote goes for Alexander.

Agreed.

EDIT: Typo.


I agree with most of what you say and we are basically saying the same thing especially here "Yes, the world would be better "if" there were no violence, but that just isn't the case - yet. "

Education, science and reason has helped us a lot, there is much less violence right now in the world than before relatively speaking, it's just a matter of time IMO.

What snapped me off about that quote was the talk about patriotism + war + necessary for being free and basically saying that those who not fight are miserable creatures.
Skydancer
Profile Joined April 2011
Italy249 Posts
August 04 2011 19:02 GMT
#788
[image loading]
MMA | MC | Dear
LazerKatten
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden40 Posts
August 04 2011 19:11 GMT
#789
On August 04 2011 19:05 jhNz wrote:
Tsing Shi Tao

[image loading]

his nuketanks were imba ;/



+1 Fo sho!
Altho his tanks just made horrible splashdamage to your own tanks when they died...
Mjolnir
Profile Joined January 2009
912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 19:17:24
August 04 2011 19:11 GMT
#790
On August 05 2011 02:55 [Marmalade] wrote:
Man, what a topic. Particularly liked the earlier stuff from Adaptation.


http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?266934-The-Top-100-Generals-of-History


My knowledge on the subject is pretty cursory for a lot of these guys but I do know a wee bit about Alexander the Great. He seems like a pretty popular choice for a lot of ppl but I definitely think there a couple of issues which may diminish the case for him being #1.

One that springs to mind is his decision to disband his Aegean fleet after Miletus. I believe this decision was a pretty glaring mistake. Not only did it make his rear flank very vulnerable, it also mean that Alexander couldn't take Harlicarnassus for another 12 months. I honestly think Alexander was pretty lucky he didn't get really badly punished for this error. Alexander's later action to recommission the fleet is a pretty good indicator that even he realised that this was a mistake.


I don't think this was a big mistake. To my knowledge the fleet was expensive to maintain and abandoning it gave him more resources to put into his already formidable land army. Also, it has been suggested by historians that Alexander's navy wasn't as strong as those of his opposition and he didn't want to throw resources into a force that could ultimately be lost. Pouring those resources into his land army was a safer utilization of funds.

Another important note is that while he was able to defeat armies which were vastly numerically superior, it is important to remember that Alexander's troops were far better equipped than their Persian counterparts (Herodotus states that the Persian immortals, the crack troops of the Persian empire, had wicker shields.....). The fact that the phalanx were fully kited out with heavy armour gave them a huge advantage over their lighter armoured counterparts. The fact that the enemy really struggled to go toe-to-toe with the hoplite must have made Alexander's job a lot easier.


Herodotus died well before Alexander was born. The Persians that Herodotus describes are from nearly a century prior to Alexander's invasion of Persia. At the time Alexander invaded Persia they had a large army of well-equipped troops with various specialties, having integrated many of the forces of their conquered foes.

Also, Alexander's strength wasn't just the phalanx, it was the also the companion cavalry. The combination of the two was it's strength, and that strength didn't come from equipment as much as it came from speed, positioning, and battlefield tactics (i.e. the oblique charge at Gaugamela).

Another important consideration is that in terms of the composition and recruitment of his army (and the original pacification of Greece) Alexander got a big leg up from his Father. The tactics of the phalanx and cavalry had been highly refined in Macedonia under Philip who gave Alexander his highly skilled, well equipped and battle hardened army.


I think this is a bit overstated. Yeah, Philip changed the army in a big way, but it wasn't like Alexander was just standing around with no part in it. He was leading charges as the head of cavalry at the age of 18, so it's not like he just inherited the work and "know-how" of the army without learning how it works firsthand, participating in battles and tactical discussions, and taking part in it's structural overhaul - even if only minimally.

I think a lot of people view the young Alexander as a spoiled prince who just inherited the results of his father's hard work and then rode the gravy train into the history books; which isn't the case at all in my opinion. Of all the generals listed here, he's one of the few who it can be said of that fought alongside his soldiers in the front lines, at great risk to himself, starting at a very early age (and there are numerous sources stating he had horrible injuries from doing just that).

I'm not saying that Alexander was not an extremely skilled and extremely brave general; he most certainly was. Just adding a few caveats for consideration. Does these issues mean he is not #1? Honestly I'm not sure, but perhaps there are Generals who made fewer mistakes and did more with less help?


Hard to say. These discussions are always fun because everyone has a different viewpoint and it's interesting to read them all. Personally, I put Alexander as #1 but I certainly enjoy learning about all the other great generals out there.

liepzig
Profile Joined June 2010
Singapore45 Posts
August 04 2011 19:15 GMT
#791
Definitely Genghis Khan. The fact that even his subordinates like Subotai and Jebe are so highly regarded speaks volumes about the big boss himself. For him to unite the Steppes, and then conquer Northern China, Central Asia, and the Khwarezmian Empire is like a having an orphan in Honduras conquer Central America, and then invade and kill half the populations of Mexico, the US, and Canada. BAMF.

I really like Admiral Yi Soon Hin of Korea and Yue Fei of China too. Both were major bad asses who destroyed all their enemies but still became victims of political intrigues in their own countries. Militarily, I'm not sure how they would fare against the popular Western candidates such as Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca, but I definitely find their personal stories to be much more interesting.

The whole Rome vs. Han Dynasty argument was pretty entertaining. I must say that it is kind of a moot discussion though. The concept of war in China is very different from Rome. For one, the Romans relied on a professional army of legionnaires, which would have meant smaller units of elite troops. The Chinese definitely fielded larger armies, but most of these would have been peasant conscripts.

At the same time, the Chinese seemed to have a more big-picture, strategic view of warfare, such as abusing terrain (using fire, damming rivers, rock slides etc...), attacking supply lines, playing mind games, and assassinating/bribing enemy generals. Europeans on the other hand tend to emphasize the tactics and results of individual battles (e.g. Cannae, Gaugamela etc...). This could have been due to the fact that the life of an individual soldier was cheaper in China than in Rome, since the Roman soldier was professionally trained and equipped, but the Chinese soldier was basically a farmer with a crossbow/halberd. As a result, wars in China were much more bloody affairs. If you search for "list of wars by death toll" or "list of battles by death toll" in Wikipedia, you would find that Chinese battles top many of them.

Adaptation, your list is really comprehensive, albeit a tad Eurocentric. It's still great to see you value people like Tamerlane, Khalid Ibn Al-Walid, Han Xin, and Chandragupta Maurya in your list. Most people have probably never even had heard of them. How about military leaders from other parts of the world though, like from South America, South East Asia, Africa etc...? People like Pachacutec (Incan) or Jayavarman VII (Khmer) come to mind. Any thoughts?
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
August 04 2011 21:14 GMT
#792
On August 05 2011 03:58 DarkEnergy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 13:53 Shrinky Dink wrote:
[image loading]

Seriously though, if you look past the horrors he did, he was actually an excellent speaker, with his war machine being responsible for some of the greatest advances in technology and science, and recovered his country's extreme deficit in its economy at the time (following the Treaty of Versailles).

I know it's obviously that he wasn't the greatest of all time, but IMO he is very underrated as a leader for his country since everyone looks at his cons.


that he had great charisma and got the country back on track by rallying the whole of Germany. Yes he should be respected for that. but his knowledge of war, strategy and tactics where horrible.
his decision to start an offensive against Russia creating 2 fronts was a fatal mistake.

It has been said that the greatest general of the allies was Adolf Hitler.
nuff said.

Well for WW2 for Allies Patton and for the Axis forces i must say Rommel.


In terms of leadership, I would nominate Hitler, but he doesn't suit a greatest general.
I'm going to go with Rommel for that.
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Qno
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden15 Posts
August 04 2011 21:43 GMT
#793
[image loading]

Genral lee is the best! YEEAH HAAAW!
Outstanding!
EtohEtoh
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada669 Posts
August 04 2011 21:46 GMT
#794
On August 05 2011 03:59 nArAnjO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 03:34 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 05 2011 01:52 nArAnjO wrote:
On August 04 2011 13:40 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 13:29 nArAnjO wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:12 Mjolnir wrote:
On August 04 2011 12:07 nArAnjO wrote:
On April 29 2011 03:25 jcarlson08 wrote:
On February 15 2011 15:36 HansMoleman wrote:
War is wrong. The real question is, "Who is the best mass murderer?".


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

~John Stuart Mill



Thats a retarded quote, it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Just the mention of patriotic feelings amuses me, it's just imaginary lines, we are all born in the same planet.


It has also been shown numerous times that fights end fights.



Didn't know we had no fights anymore! cool


Right, 'cause God forbid there be fights starting that are completely unrelated to the ones finished (in whatever fashion).

Honestly.



Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

Vote goes for Alexander.


Man, I can't believe this is even being debated.

Many societies for many, many years, have been well aware of the horrors of war - and violence in general. Even "warring" societies (I use the term loosely) knew full well the cost of violence and how it affected families, loved ones, even the state. Rare (though not unheard of) in history has anyone ever advocated violence for the sake of violence, or for the sake of getting what you want because it's the better option; even in ancient times, war was far more costly than diplomacy. The pacifist viewpoint you're offering isn't new, and if it was that easy, there would be no wars. Period.

At the end of the day, though, violence exists - it always has, and it probably always will. You can educate until the cows come home - as many have done for millenia - and violence will likely still exist. You can ascribe to the peaceful ideology that "wouldn't it be better if..." and think that all violence is bad in and of itself, and totally (always?) unnecessary; but I have to respectfully disagree with that viewpoint. While I dislike the idea of war, hurting people, or violence in general, sometimes, these things are (have been) necessary.

Violence has - numerous times - protected those who needed protection and saved lives when diplomacy has failed - whether on the level of state or individuals.

Nobody here is praising violence for it's own sake (and I certainly hope you don't think I am) but it cannot be questioned that there are times when there is no other option - no matter how much any of us wish there to be. They think it's necessary in the same way it's necessary to defend yourself when someone starts punching you in the face. There's a huge difference from what you're implying both in terms of practice and theory.

Yes, violence and war is bad - we all know this; but when you come into a thread about the greatest general of all time and tell us that:

...it's been shown time and time again that fights only lead to more fights, there are far better ways to "fight" for something than actual battle against other fellow human beings.

Then you're probably expecting the replies you've received already.

Fights do not only lead to more fights, history illustrates this. Sometimes fights unify and resolve issues. Hell, someone could even make a great argument that pacifist "solutions" result in more conflict. Of course there are better ways to solve problems than violent fighting - but what people here are saying is that you can't always resort to those alternatives, and again, history illustrates this. So to throw a blanket statement that John Stuart Mill's quote is "retarded" while implying that all violence is a useless and troglodytic behaviour comes across as myopic, wishful thinking, and probably insulting to some people reading this - as if they don't already understand that war is bad.

Yes, the world would be better "if" there were no violence, but that just isn't the case - yet.

TL:DR version:

Right... because what would happen if no one believed in wars being an important and necessary part of human life or even something remotely useful like your friend in the quote, no one would start one!, God forbid that.

If you can make that happen, good on you. People have been trying for millenia and violence still exists.

Don't you think it would be far more intelligent to educate everyone and make them see that wars are just plain retarded than tell them wars are essential and that they are necessary? And even that they aren't they ugliest of things (which they are!!) I mean wtf.

Of course I do; I'm sure everyone here would like a totally peaceful world. I disagree with the last part of your quote but that's a lengthy debate I'm sure neither of us care to indulge.

I know this just wasn't possible in the Dark ages, even I would have probably believed that war did actually led to something and could sometimes be righteous, but now we should start to know better.

People knew better 3000 years ago. If you can snap your fingers and make us all realize the folly of our ways now, more power to you.

Vote goes for Alexander.

Agreed.

EDIT: Typo.


I agree with most of what you say and we are basically saying the same thing especially here "Yes, the world would be better "if" there were no violence, but that just isn't the case - yet. "

Education, science and reason has helped us a lot, there is much less violence right now in the world than before relatively speaking, it's just a matter of time IMO.

What snapped me off about that quote was the talk about patriotism + war + necessary for being free and basically saying that those who not fight are miserable creatures.

I think you misunderstood the quote (though this thread is the first time i've of the quote so I may be wrong too).

the kind of war that he's not talking about is not what we see in today's world with today's military powers, he's not talking about the Iraq war or any of the US' most recent endeavors. like, I believe every person should have something important to them, something that's worth fighting for. And one of those things, outllined in the quotation, is freedom.

Today's version of what he's talking about would be the many revolutions occuring in the middle east at the moment. Mubarak stepped down after a protest, good.
but Gaddafi didn't. I think the people did the right thing by fighting for their freedom, instead of doing nothing
Sobba
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden576 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 21:57:37
August 04 2011 21:54 GMT
#795
That so many propose Rommel is sad. Rommel was insanely hyped by the german propaganda machine to be some miracle general. He was probably not bad, but far from the best ever. His achivements are losing the battle for Africa and losing the battle for Normandie. Ofcourse the losses are not his fault alone but you cant name him greatest general ever with his history.

The germans had a lot of great commanders during WW2. But in my mind the most famous should be Heinz Guderian who developt the german version of Blitzkrieg that surely got them as far as they got. He lead the spearhead into the ardennes in the first french campaign, and was one of few generals who could speak his mind to Hitler without beeing dismissed. He was (in my mind) without a doubt the greatest Panzer general of all time. But its hard to say greatest overall ever.

But anyone claiming Rommel does not know any ww2 history.
EnsisRaizo
Profile Joined February 2011
25 Posts
August 04 2011 21:57 GMT
#796
+ Show Spoiler +
[QUOTE]On August 05 2011 03:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:
[quote]However, in terms of actual accomplishments, the man may not quite live up to his reputation. While an aggressive and capable commander, he tended to be abrasive, intolerant, unteachable and rash to the point of foolhardiness, which might be one of the reasons he was defeated by the British in North Africa not once, but twice (the first time at the hands of British General Auchinleck, the second time by Montgomery) and finally pushed off the continent. Afterwards given the task of securing the French coastline from allied invasion (the Atlantic Wall) he oversaw the construction of a formidable barrier of bunkers and gun emplacements that prevented the allies from taking the beaches at Normandy on June 6, 1944 for about half an hour or so, thereby demonstrating the futility of depending on fixed defenses to stop invasions (a lesson the Germans should have remembered from France’s futile efforts to hold the Maginot Line in 1940). [/quote]

There's a couple things wrong with this:

Auchinleck never beat Rommel. He finally got the point where he'd retreated so far that Rommel's tactical brilliance could no longer compensate for the fact that he had badly stretched his supply lines and he was getting the short end of the logistical stick from Germany anyway. Rommel did make several mistakes being overaggressive, like in the first assault on Tobruk.

Rommel only lost his offensive war in North Africa after Britain sent not one, but two major armies to Egypt, mostly equipped by the Americans, with materiel resources Rommel could not match. The British Empire put almost all of its land military strength into keeping Egypt out of German hands and even then it barely held on.

He also was relieved of command before Africa fell and the Axis defensive strategy was changed to one of major local counterattacks that Rommel disagreed with.

Again in France, Rommel wanted to keep full tank divisions within 20 miles of the beaches so as to be able to counterattack the Allied beachheads within hours. Hitler, with no experience of the power of Allied air attacks and their ability to disrupt ground operations, disagreed. Rommel knew what it was like to try to move an army whose enemy has near-complete air superiority. The argument was still ongoing when Rommel was badly wounded when his command car was shot up by an Allied fighter-bomber. He was already in a bad odor for disagreeing with Hitler so the tanks stayed more than 50 miles away from the coast and they never had a chance to counterattack the beachheads.

Rommel also recommended not defending the lower half of Italy from Allied invasion and instead putting up defensive positions north of Rome along almost the identical terrain that later became the Gustav Line, the one that held the Allies up from fully conquering Italy until the year after the invasion.

Erwin Rommel was a divisional commander on par with Vespasian and an army commander at the level of a Sherman. However, he wasn't so great at controlling multiple armies and was not a man with a head for logistics. But in North Africa the only choice was try to win as quickly as possible or inevitably lose, if Rommel had been properly supported by Berlin he probably would have taken Egypt well before the second army (with 300 brand spanking new Sherman tanks) that beat him at El Alamein arrived.

But I think the greatest modern general is either U.S. Grant or Max Hoffman. Both were geniuses at maneuvering their armies in ways that either fooled the enemy or left him in no position to successfully halt their movements, which is basically auto-win in war.


I havent gotten through all forty pages yet, but this post is extremely intelligent and well thought out so I would like to comment on it. I am not some military genius, I am in the military and have done extensive studies of military history, however this does not make me any kind of real expert. Erwin rommel was an excellent divisional commander, a solid innovator in a bad situation. The germans had one major thing working against them in this section of the war and that is the fact that they were germans. They spent a large amount of their war resources engaged in "properly" subduing the lands they invaded, Einstatzgruppen were a group of forces whose only job was to wipe out "undesirable" elements of local populations which meant any of the ethnic "inferiors" or jews. The germans spent so much on this efforts it often hampered their actual war effort. Not only that, and again why I am such a fan of the above post, the Germans did not pay near enough attention to supply issues. In both Russia and North Africa they far exceeded their capabilities to support their armies and would have greatly served by a modicum of control over the field generals. In Russia in particular there were several outright disasters and blunders by the German forces that resulted in great loss, primarily the campaign for Stalingrad and the caucasus. If Hitler had gone for one of those things at a time he would almost certainly have done a great deal more damage to to the Russian war machine, instead the germans faltered and were driven back by a strong counterattack, which in turn was crushed when the Russians over-extended themselves. The only thing I really disagree with the above poster on is the claim that the germans were beaten only by massive number differences. Even in North Africa the numbers were not the telling factor near as much as supply lines and positioning was. Rommel was an attack focused leader and he did not have the supply control (as the above poster mentioned) to manage such a war especially with the mindset that all germans had at that time. Now on to continued praise of the above poster, Ulysses S. Grant was an absolutely perfect example of understanding what was required from his army and natoin to win the war. The Confederate Army was focused on engaging and devastating the Union army in pitched battle to gain international recognition. The Federal forces had a compkletely different objective consisting of three parts: First, the anaconda plan(originally enacted by Gen. Winfield Scott 85 years old at the start of the Civil War) which was focused on squeezing out the souths ability wage war through blockades and attrition. Second, Multiple advances- since the south had less total troops the north would try to be attacking on several fronts at once to keep the southerners from properly defending all points. Finally, the Union forces were to engage in logistical raids (i.e. harrass the south's mineral line repeatedly). Not until Grant took control did this plan of battle actually become successful. He continually engaged the Southerners knowing that while their actual army sizes were about the same he could continually reinforce, while the south was out of men. Thus Grant is a perfect example of knowing your abilities and those of your opponent and using them to emerge solidly victorious. I would also submit Dwight D. Eisenhower and the Duke of Wellington for the community's review on this subject.


TL;DR:
I like history, and the above guy is very knowledgeable about this subject. Grant and Eisenhower rock.
EnsisRaizo
Profile Joined February 2011
25 Posts
August 04 2011 22:01 GMT
#797
Somebody after me posted Admiral Yi Sun Shin from the Joseon Dynasty era of Korean history and I would echo him as the greatest of Naval leader of all time. Hansando is one of the most masterful naval battles of all time, and was one of many.
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 22:18:12
August 04 2011 22:10 GMT
#798
Not sure if he was a Field Marechal or a General, but I do believe that Rommel was one of the greatest ever.

"Once a brave man, always a brave man!"

[image loading]


Edit: I saw some posts relating to how war is horrible. I'll add my own little quote:

"War doesn't determine who's right and who's wrong - only who's left."
-Bertrand Russell.
Nightshake
Profile Joined November 2010
France412 Posts
August 04 2011 22:13 GMT
#799
As I am french, i have to mension him :

[image loading]

acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 22:18:58
August 04 2011 22:14 GMT
#800
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 05 2011 03:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:
There's a couple things wrong with this:

Auchinleck never beat Rommel. He finally got the point where he'd retreated so far that Rommel's tactical brilliance could no longer compensate for the fact that he had badly stretched his supply lines and he was getting the short end of the logistical stick from Germany anyway. Rommel did make several mistakes being overaggressive, like in the first assault on Tobruk.

Rommel only lost his offensive war in North Africa after Britain sent not one, but two major armies to Egypt, mostly equipped by the Americans, with materiel resources Rommel could not match. The British Empire put almost all of its land military strength into keeping Egypt out of German hands and even then it barely held on.


A general must be able to control his logistical lines. If Rommel overstretched his assault and got beaten down for it, that's Auchinleck's victory or Rommel's loss. The first assault on Tobruk was definitely Rommel's loss by all accounts.

There is no doubt that Rommel was a tactical genius, but his attention to logistics left much to be desired, even when he wasn't being shafted by Hitler. This might have been acceptable at lower ranks, but logistics is much, much more important than tactics when you're controlling entire armies.
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