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ummmmm, the heck? Not attend a sleepover D=
I'm a big fan of strict parenting, but I think some of things that she's strict with is just 'ehh.'
Be strict with making your kids do well in school, whatever it is that they're studying so that they know how to do their own work. Be strict in teaching your children to be mannered and depend on themselves. I played a good amount of video games, watched TV, and such, I finished high school at a college prep school and went on to attend one of the best schools from my graduating class.
I mean it seems like this lady isnt into letting her kids have any fun. These are the type of kids who grow up and dont know how to relax when they aren't No.1 in college, but actually are getting their first 'B' of their lives. When I hear about kids committing suicide at some of the local universities, it's usually because they can't cope with the idea that they're not the all time best and have no idea on how to relax their self and recharge for other exams and tasks.
also she seems to hate the Arts, with the exception of music, which is probably because things like piano and the violin are classical and are encouraged because of helping the brain develop.
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Are there any psychological issues that so called chinese mothers DON'T give their children? Just wondering.. It would be very nice to see something to back up the statements that this kind of parental style leads to various problems.
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We don't need any more Westerners coming into this thread and posting shit about how Chinese kids are definitely going to be socially awkward and have depression and low self-esteem and do drugs or shit like that.
Yeah some of them are gonna be like that but that doesn't mean you can say that "Chinese parenting produces screwed up kids". Western kids have their fair share of screwed up kids too, and plus they are more likely to get spoiled by their parents or end up as lazy idiots who don't want to work hard.
Being "not normal" or "not balanced" doesn't mean a person has low self-esteem or is depressed or is basically going to fail at life.
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as an american born chinese kid who went to high school in the south bay area of california (roughly 1/3rd chinese, 1/3rd indian, 1/3rd white in the west side of san jose where i'm from), i can vouch that this parenting style produces a much higher incidence of dysfunctional awkward kids than any 'white' parenting style i've seen. actually i think indian parents seem to do it best (they definitely arent strict in the same authoritarian way), though i don't know the details of their general parenting style.
indian parents seem to produce a much more entrepreneurial mindset, while chinese parents generally mostly encourage steady paying high security jobs (like the stereotypical doctor/lawyer/actuary/etc). i dont think chinese parenting is as well suited to american culture as indian or white parenting is.
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The mother is from Yale Law and graduated from Harvard, and having enough money so that she could allow her children activities that could not be possibly dreamed of if it was just a typical immigrant that carried little to no money at all. Having this type of money certainly helps, rather than having a poor child who goes into the Asian parenting, telling to get into a good school, gets their dream school, then the parents reneging on their promise by sending him to a state school because of their financial situation.
My roommate went through this type of abuse, as he would practice on the violin constantly during his childhood. One day, he asked if he could be a violinist and his parents scoffed at him, because that doesn't bring money into the household. This type of parenting has a strict mindset in that there are really no other alternatives for the child if s/he cannot produce a "paying" job out of college.
I would say that for parents who have enough money, that this style of parenting would be fine; for others, this style of parenting would actually harm their children because the importance of Networking far outweighs the benefit of actually having high grades.
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On January 09 2011 08:46 Krigwin wrote:
With a title as racist as that I was expecting this to be some college journalist editorial or something, not a Wall Street Journal article. What a joke.
As someone who is Chinese, I can tell you that while Chinese parents might certainly produce children that are deemed more "successful" by society's standards, it's still not worth it. The amount of neuroses caused by Chinese "parenting" is staggering and almost anyone who was raised by Asian parents can tell you all kinds of horror stories.
Chinese parenting isn't parenting, it's grooming of the child into a human trophy that can be displayed for the good of the family. Chinese parents rob their children of their childhoods and harshly cultivate them (sometimes physically if necessary) with negative reinforcement in pursuit of vicarious success.
as chinese I agree whole heartily, and my mother is the less scary chinese type. T_T
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What a load of horse shit.
Her argument that 'strict chinese mothers' are better at raising children for the future is based on nothing except stereotypes and her own experience. There's no solid data to support her argument that 'strict mothers' trump western mothers.
What's more aggravating is this,"Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids." Really? I mean maybe in the U.S.A. but as far as I know there are plenty of lazy, unsucessful, and stupid chinese kids in Asia.
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I just wrote a poorly written commentary on this woman's garbage and e-mailed it to her. Here's her e-mail address:
amy.chua@yale.edu
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On January 09 2011 10:40 potatomash3r wrote:
What a load of horse shit.
Her argument that 'strict chinese mothers' are better at raising children for the future is based on nothing except stereotypes and her own experience. There's no solid data to support her argument that 'strict mothers' trump western mothers.
What's more aggravating is this,"Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids." Really? I mean maybe in the U.S.A. but as far as I know there are plenty of lazy, unsucessful, and stupid chinese kids in Asia.
I completely agree with this statement. Coming from a similar household, I can say with experience that the "Asian" way of raising a child as outlined by this article is terrible. I mean sure academics and musical excellence is achieved, but at what cost? Ultimately, I think social skills and general social interactions with normal people is the above cost (not allowed to go on a playdate, or join the school musical: how do they possibly make friends?).
Part of a successful career lies in one's social abilities, for without them how can you do anything in any work environment?
However, despite that fact, the Asian parenting style has merit. It actually does force a work ethic onto a child and creates a sense of responsibility for one's own work, but like all things, there should be MODERATION. The mother in this article is beyond too strict even for Asian parents standards.
EDIT: With more thoughts on the situation and if I was a parent, I'd lean toward a Western style raising of my child, but I think I'd still require my child to always strive for academic excellence (and until high school that basically means all As).
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On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote:
terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
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On January 09 2011 10:43 IntoTheheart wrote:
I just wrote a poorly written commentary on this woman's garbage and e-mailed it to her. Here's her e-mail address:
amy.chua@yale.edu
Curious to see what you wrote to her, mind if we see? or you can just PM me. I kind of wanna write something to her myself
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United States24698 Posts
On January 09 2011 10:48 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote:
terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once. That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up. Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried. And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
Not cool dude. Someone commits suicide, you don't know all the details, and you blame the kid for being 'bad'? The parents "did it wrong?" You haven't actually invalidated the point of the person you quoted although I'm sure you did a good job at upsetting him if that was your goal.
I also completely disagree that "Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability" unless you think that most kids have mental disabilities. You are lecturing on a topic you clearly don't understand.
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What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences.
MAN, EATING FOOD JUST WASN'T FUN UNTIL I TRAINED FOR 3 YEARS IN TEXAS AND BECAME THE WORLD CHAMP IN ALL EATING COMPETITIONS, THEN I COULD FINALLY ENJOY IT.
They're just raising cocky assholes with an unearned sense of entitlement, like the kids who talk trash and get shit on in competitive counter-strike.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
--which would never happen--
You can really tell that the woman who wrote this is an extremely humble person who comes from a perfect background of completely humble and communative people. [/sarcasm]
Also the supposed 'math whizzes', aren't as good as they look, they might be able to multiply numbers with their imaginary abacuses, but most of them never have the sheer abstract understanding or originality that drove Newton to develop Calculus or Euler to discover e.
DEZ KIDS IS SCRUBS
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On January 09 2011 10:48 MetalMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 10:43 IntoTheheart wrote:
I just wrote a poorly written commentary on this woman's garbage and e-mailed it to her. Here's her e-mail address:
amy.chua@yale.edu Curious to see what you wrote to her, mind if we see? or you can just PM me. I kind of wanna write something to her myself
I wouldn't recommended emailing her with disagreements. Pretty sure the article is intentional controversial in either case, and its obvious there are many disagreements to what she wrote. Spamming YOU'RE WRONG isn't going to help whatever you guys are trying to accomplish.
EDIT:
Just realized if you applied the article to starcraft you basically get progamer houses lol
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It boggles my mind that people are even defending this psycho crazy monster. What is the point of living like that? Why would you WANT your kid to be so sheltered?
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I'm Asian too and I even lived in an Asian country before moving to France.
I can say that mothers like this woman exist but they are just 2-3 % of Asian women, most parents are much nicer towards their children.
My mother did force me to study when I was young (< 11yo), but after that it's over. I don't need her to be good at school and she couldn't force me to do anything because I destroyed half the house each time she did it lol.
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Bad patronizing article; wouldn't expect less shit from WSJ.
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On January 09 2011 10:48 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote:
terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once. That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up. Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried. And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...? I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it? Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that. The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school. The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
I'm Chinese, my parents tried the Asian method of raising me, I hardcore rebelled against more or less everything they said. I'm lazy, unmotivated, and procrastinate a lot, but hey I attend an Ivy League school anyway. The arrogance of the above statement is ridiculous. The fundamental problem in the Asian way of raising a child is pride and "appearances." Sure the ideas are solid, work hard, do well, but the ultimate goal behind the Chinese style of parenting is not just pushing the child to his or her own limit, but also to attain degrees of honor.
For example, the fool I'm quoting, listen to his self-righteous arrogance about getting A+s, his preening about being in line for valedictorian, his defense of this "Asian style" parenting. It's all because of some illusion that he's better than others. 50 years down the line, who the fuck cares if you were valedictorian of your high school. I was in the top 10 of my class and I go to an Ivy League school but now in college, I'm taking classes with thousands of high school valedictorians, thousands of athletes that were captains of this and that, thousands of presidents, editors in chiefs, salutatorians, national merit finalists, perfect SAT score kids, and at my school, none of them are all that special.
EDIT: See bolded statements.
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Hello,
Let me start off by saying that this style of parenting is absolutely unacceptable in every conceivable way.
First of all, a response to the article as a whole. The worst way to get someone to be good at something is to make that person despise it. I have hardly ever heard of any great pianist, violinist, mathematician, physicist, writer, progamer, ... who doesn't enjoy what he does. Children who don't enjoy an activity will try as hard as they can to find a way to please their parents while putting minimal effort in the activity itself. It's okay to tell your kids to play the piano, but it's definitely not okay to threaten to donate their dollhouses to the Salvation Army when they make it clear they don't want to do so. The article includes "What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it" when the truth is "you won't be good at anything until it's fun." Does forcing a child into an activity make him enjoy it?
Why not let children find what they're good at? The existence of this parenting technique takes a big step in the direction of a world composed of not-very-great pianists who have no idea what they can do well. Being intolerant of people who can't play the piano is absolutely ludicrous, especially if you can't play the piano very well yourself.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child.
For now, let's ignore the fact that this selection, as well as the entire paragraph in which it is contained, has poor grammar (which the author herself would probably deem unacceptable if her children were to use it). Demanding children to get perfect grades simply because they can boggles and perplexes me. Parents need to realize that grades and learning are pretty much unrelated goals. I wonder if the author would be happy being punished for everything she didn't try in.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
These parents have absolutely no idea what's best for their children. (Note how I avoid the term "Chinese parents" because I am convinced that, for the most part, the Chinese raise their kids in a style orders of magnitude better than the style described in this article.) Having a part in the school play is definitely not as evil as the author seems to think it is, and parents should definitely support their children in such an endeavor rather than, say, telling them to play piano instead. Speaking of which, how is playing piano superior to acting?
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
This makes me cry. If you call insulting your children, threatening to not feed them, and forbidding them to go to the bathroom in the middle of a piano lesson "care," then I really care for this article.
(By the way, the author writes "That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child," pretty much "insulting your children is a good thing to do," and later, "I told her [Lulu] to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic."
But then she gets all defensive when she is accused of insulting her children - something she very clearly did: "He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating her.")
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
I see no way in which this style of parenting prepares children for the future.
Great actors aren't great because their parents told them they couldn't perform in school plays. As for "skills," the only skills this seems to give the child are the ability to get good grades and the ability to get a good score on the SAT. Grades and learning, again, are pretty much unrelated, which causes us to doubt the importance of these "skills." As for "work habits," this is really only valid if "work habits" means "doing exactly what you are told and nothing else." And insulting your children and calling them worthless is the worst way to instill "confidence" in them.
The article often refers to this system of parenting (i.e. child abuse) as "different." However, I think I have made it clear that we should really be using the word "worse."
The article is arrogant, childish, racist, and narrow-minded. I was really surprised that such an article could ever be published. This article is on par with the following one: http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-researcher-discovers-integration-gets-75-citations/
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EPT
