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On January 12 2011 04:27 Cpadolf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 04:23 tdt wrote:On January 12 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:On January 12 2011 03:37 tdt wrote:
Bottom line is plenty of hurtful things are barred. I see no problem extending this to religious people who are hurt, marginalized and dehumanized by these insensitive drawings. I am hurt, marginalized, and dehumanized by the very existence of Islam. Should we ban Islam entirely? How? Because they want you to stop generalizing about them or don't want you to draw their prophet as a dog or with a bomb on his head? Ridiculous. Harm not found. You're the guy who was all for censoring hurtful things. Do you have any idea how offensive and hurtful the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) is to a lot of people?
People have all sorts of excuses for doing crazy stuff. Their dog, the devil, the republican party, god whatever. You can''t stop crazy or schizoids. I see zero evidence holy books caused harm. Proof is hundreds of millions of peaceful Christians and Muslims living among us. If it were so dangerous an agnostic like me could not walk the streets with all these religious people.
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Islam, in some parts of the world, is were Christianity was at 300 years ago, that's my opinion. We just need to keep promoting secular ideas and reason. After all, fundamentalism is nothing but religion in it's most purest form that has not been restraint by logic and reason. You don't see anyone in the States that takes stoning disrespectful kids or adulterers seriously and thats in the Christan Bible and the Torah. Religions can be reconciled regardless of what bronze age ideas are found in their holy books. To say the Koran is any more violent than the Bible just shows me that someone who holds that idea must not of read the old testament both are incredible violent.
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Sorry, but why should believing a religion be respected? Why does belief deserve respect in itself? Respect is something earned, it is not something given. Do you respect someone who believes that there are flying pink armadillos in the sky ? Hell, you'd probably think he's a nutcase. However, when people believe that the Earth was created in 6 days, or that it is okay to marry 4 woman or that there is only one God who likes to intervene with every single issue or topic related to how you live your life, people respect that. The time to realize that religions are an insult to human civiziliation and human mind has long passed, it is time to understand that it should be okay to at least criticise some things to start a change in future.
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Of course we shouldn't prohibit further depictions of Muhammad. The people who are asking for this to stop are not Muslims who are genuinely bothered by these depictions, they are terrorists making demands. I don't have any problems with Muslims, but terrorists can go fuck themselves. I'm not going to stand for the curtailing of one of our most precious liberties for the sake of jihadists.
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On January 12 2011 04:23 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:On January 12 2011 03:37 tdt wrote:
Bottom line is plenty of hurtful things are barred. I see no problem extending this to religious people who are hurt, marginalized and dehumanized by these insensitive drawings. I am hurt, marginalized, and dehumanized by the very existence of Islam. Should we ban Islam entirely? How? Because they want you to stop generalizing about them or don't want you to draw their prophet as a dog or with a bomb on his head? Ridiculous. Harm not found.
Who are you to tell me any such harm is not real? I don't have to explain my reasons to you, I'm merely stating I am hurt just by Islam itself. By your very lax standards for censorship, that should be enough.
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On January 12 2011 04:46 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 04:23 tdt wrote:On January 12 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:On January 12 2011 03:37 tdt wrote:
Bottom line is plenty of hurtful things are barred. I see no problem extending this to religious people who are hurt, marginalized and dehumanized by these insensitive drawings. I am hurt, marginalized, and dehumanized by the very existence of Islam. Should we ban Islam entirely? How? Because they want you to stop generalizing about them or don't want you to draw their prophet as a dog or with a bomb on his head? Ridiculous. Harm not found. Who are you to tell me any such harm is not real? I don't have to explain my reasons to you, I'm merely stating I am hurt just by Islam itself. By your very lax standards for censorship, that should be enough.
You cant have that type of censorship and free speech. Westerners have valued free speech higher than not offending religion since Martin Luther wrote his Ninety-Five Theses. The whole history of the west since the end of the dark ages has been freedom versus religious oppression.
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On January 12 2011 04:40 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 04:27 Cpadolf wrote:On January 12 2011 04:23 tdt wrote:On January 12 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:On January 12 2011 03:37 tdt wrote:
Bottom line is plenty of hurtful things are barred. I see no problem extending this to religious people who are hurt, marginalized and dehumanized by these insensitive drawings. I am hurt, marginalized, and dehumanized by the very existence of Islam. Should we ban Islam entirely? How? Because they want you to stop generalizing about them or don't want you to draw their prophet as a dog or with a bomb on his head? Ridiculous. Harm not found. You're the guy who was all for censoring hurtful things. Do you have any idea how offensive and hurtful the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) is to a lot of people? People have all sorts of excuses for doing crazy stuff. Their dog, the devil, the republican party, god whatever. You can''t stop crazy or schizoids. I see zero evidence holy books caused harm. Proof is hundreds of millions of peaceful Christians and Muslims living among us. If it were so dangerous an agnostic like me could not walk the streets with all these religious people.
First of all, there being zero evidence that any holy scripture ever caused harm is a pretty damn bold statement, but that was not the point I was trying to make and I will not argue about it here. My point is that it is pretty hypocritical to find it justified to prohibit cartoons of Mohamed because it offends a lot of Muslims, while not finding it justified to censor for example the Koran even though that is also offensive to a lot of people in general (I'm extremely against doing either, just to be clear).
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On January 12 2011 04:43 Bleak wrote:
Sorry, but why should believing a religion be respected? Why does belief deserve respect in itself? Respect is something earned, it is not something given. Do you respect someone who believes that there are flying pink armadillos in the sky ? Hell, you'd probably think he's a nutcase. However, when people believe that the Earth was created in 6 days, or that it is okay to marry 4 woman or that there is only one God who likes to intervene with every single issue or topic related to how you live your life, people respect that. The time to realize that religions are an insult to human civiziliation and human mind has long passed, it is time to understand that it should be okay to at least criticise some things to start a change in future.
If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love and give it a try and not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue.
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On January 12 2011 05:04 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 04:43 Bleak wrote:
Sorry, but why should believing a religion be respected? Why does belief deserve respect in itself? Respect is something earned, it is not something given. Do you respect someone who believes that there are flying pink armadillos in the sky ? Hell, you'd probably think he's a nutcase. However, when people believe that the Earth was created in 6 days, or that it is okay to marry 4 woman or that there is only one God who likes to intervene with every single issue or topic related to how you live your life, people respect that. The time to realize that religions are an insult to human civiziliation and human mind has long passed, it is time to understand that it should be okay to at least criticise some things to start a change in future. If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue.
You don't have to respect religion just religious people there is a huge different between the two. It is disrespectful to me to tell someone that they can't share an opinion or idea because it is blasphemous. The theory of evolution is considered an attack on religion to some just like the theory that the sun and not the earth was the focal point of galaxy and the idea that the universe was infinite. Should ideas be off limits because they offend someone's religion? No that type of thinking belongs back in the dark ages!
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On January 12 2011 05:04 tdt wrote:
If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue.
Your completely out of touch with reality. If you outlaw something a population takes for granted as a freedom your NOT going to create peace and love. Your going to create tension, and there will be riots, because this is the populations way of responding when democracy fails.
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On January 12 2011 05:12 Jswizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 05:04 tdt wrote:On January 12 2011 04:43 Bleak wrote:
Sorry, but why should believing a religion be respected? Why does belief deserve respect in itself? Respect is something earned, it is not something given. Do you respect someone who believes that there are flying pink armadillos in the sky ? Hell, you'd probably think he's a nutcase. However, when people believe that the Earth was created in 6 days, or that it is okay to marry 4 woman or that there is only one God who likes to intervene with every single issue or topic related to how you live your life, people respect that. The time to realize that religions are an insult to human civiziliation and human mind has long passed, it is time to understand that it should be okay to at least criticise some things to start a change in future. If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue. You don't have to respect religion just religious people there is a huge different between the two. It is disrespectful to me to tell someone that they can't share an opinion or idea because it is blasphemous. The theory of evolution is considered an attack on religion to some just like the theory that the sun and not the earth was the focal point of galaxy and the idea that the universe was infinite. Should ideas be off limits because they offend someone's religion? No that type of thinking belongs back in the dark ages!
Give it time bro. It won't happen over night. I believe following history we are all getting more liberal and have respect for the individual and human rights. More you push people into a corner and slums and marginalize and insult them more they are going to push back and stay more fundementalist . It's only been 20-30 years since Muslims came to Europe in massive numbers so that's their culture still but many are just as European as anyone else. Just have patience. In the meantime it's stupid to intentionally insult them.
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On January 12 2011 05:35 metzGRR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 05:04 tdt wrote:
If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue. Your completely out of touch with reality. If you outlaw something a population takes for granted as a freedom your NOT going to create peace and love. Your going to create tension, and there will be riots, because this is the populations way of responding when democracy fails.
That's not true. Many forms of hate speech are already illegal in USA and Europe. More in Europe. Adding religion would have minimal effect.
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On January 12 2011 04:40 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 04:27 Cpadolf wrote:On January 12 2011 04:23 tdt wrote:On January 12 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:On January 12 2011 03:37 tdt wrote:
Bottom line is plenty of hurtful things are barred. I see no problem extending this to religious people who are hurt, marginalized and dehumanized by these insensitive drawings. I am hurt, marginalized, and dehumanized by the very existence of Islam. Should we ban Islam entirely? How? Because they want you to stop generalizing about them or don't want you to draw their prophet as a dog or with a bomb on his head? Ridiculous. Harm not found. You're the guy who was all for censoring hurtful things. Do you have any idea how offensive and hurtful the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) is to a lot of people? People have all sorts of excuses for doing crazy stuff. Their dog, the devil, the republican party, god whatever. You can''t stop crazy or schizoids. I see zero evidence holy books caused harm. Proof is hundreds of millions of peaceful Christians and Muslims living among us. If it were so dangerous an agnostic like me could not walk the streets with all these religious people.
you can't stop them, but you can entice them and provoke them and eventually drive them to doing things.
Try living somewhere else...
To quote Hitchens, "Just to stay within the letter 'B', I have actually had that experience in Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethlehem and Baghdad. In each case ... I would feel immediately threatened if I thought that the group of men approaching me in the dusk were coming from a religious observance"
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On January 12 2011 05:54 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 05:35 metzGRR wrote:On January 12 2011 05:04 tdt wrote:
If only everyone was just like me it would be easy to receive my respect. Unfortunately they are not. Therefore we must compromise with others around us. Or forever war which seems to be a human condition at this point. Take your pick. I prefer peace and love not getting my ass shot off as an ideologue. Your completely out of touch with reality. If you outlaw something a population takes for granted as a freedom your NOT going to create peace and love. Your going to create tension, and there will be riots, because this is the populations way of responding when democracy fails. That's not true. Many forms of hate speech are already illegal in USA and Europe. More in Europe. Adding religion would have minimal effect.
First of all, stop pressing with your hate-speech-bullshit rhetoric, Muhammad is depicted in a lot of places without it having any relation to hate speech, history books is a good example. Stop playing your game of words and loop-around rhetoric.
Second, again you post something that is little related to reality. Swedes takes their freedom to depict Muhammad for granted, Swedes do not consider depiction of Muhammad as hate speech. There is little you can do to change this. Laws will only aggravate and create tension. If this is not a fact, then it is a solid prediction based on pased events.
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No, holy deity no, that's just stupid to even contemplate.
If anything just publish a muhammed cartoon in every medium there is for every day during a whole year and people might get used to it.
That does not mean it has to be mean cartoons.
Fun fact;
Muhammed is as popelour to depict in Iran as it is southern USA... it's everywere. It's a western/extremist myth that it never happens.
My uncle is an Imam, so I got a deeper insight in the whole story than most people. It's depressingly simple and redundant to ever talk about free speech in the context of idiots.
other Fun fact:
a racist in sweden shoot over 6 people, killing more than 2 people; he's a murderer.
a idiot blows himself and his car up, killing no one but himself; he's a terrorist and suddenly the whole society is weeping tears.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
This might seem like it's in the public's interest but all it is is bowing down to the threat of violence. People have been making fun of all kinds of religious groups throughout history so why should we make an exception for this particular one? The possibility of retaliation should not force us to make concessions on our freedom of speech. If this really does come to pass, the extremists and terrorists are succeeding and will give them a morale boost. HOLD FIRM PEOPLE!
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On January 12 2011 06:13 Krehlmar wrote:
other Fun fact:
a racist in sweden shoot over 6 people, killing more than 2 people; he's a murderer.
a idiot blows himself and his car up, killing no one but himself; he's a terrorist and suddenly the whole society is weeping tears.
your point? a terrorist isn't not a murderer. the terrorist tag notes the intentions and desires of the person doing the act.
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I'm an animation major in college and in my history of animation classes, we learned about cartoons that were banned for portraying stereotypes of African Americans and Asians. IMO, I dont see banning cartoons that are offensive to a religious group as any different. Especially when a lot societies have measures that they take against hate crimes. I mean if you harass a Muslim on the street by calling them something deragatory, that is a hate crime. It would be contradictory to say that a newspaper could do so, but an individual on the street cannot. In addition, by allowing such cartoons, you would be encouraging something that you are against in other contexts.
Now in the case of reacting towards threats, it's a big shame. A lot worse things were done to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) when he was alive and the reactions of Muslims were completely different. I mean, he had stones thrown at him when he went to preach in a city once. Also, there was a period of time where he and the Muslims had been boycotted by a lot of people in Mecca for some time so they ended up starving. Muslims died in that event, including his first wife, Khadijah, but the only times the Muslims really got up in arms, was when they were officially in a war, in which they had their own rules for warfare that were quite modern. Honestly, it goes to show you that these 'Muslims' that are making these threats no nothing about their own religion because if they did, they'd realize that there is a specific way to react to this type of a situation in their own history, but do they follow it? No. They just end up making the rest of Muslims look bad.
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Being born black or asian, female, homosexual, etc is not something you can choose. Which imaginary friend you believe in is a choice. It's a very important distinction.
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Governments should have no right to ban depictions of Muhammad, but anyone who draws him does so at their own risk. That's what happens when you intentionally bait the crazy wacko extremists of the world, of which Islam has no shortage of (nor any other religion for that matter).
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EPT
