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Headphone enthusiast thread! - Page 149

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lundell100
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden232 Posts
February 28 2012 15:51 GMT
#2961
I used to have the Razer carcharias, but they broke so now I'm using a pair of Sennheiser 485's.
I actually really like them, the only thing that is annoying is that I have to wear the Razer carcharias around my neck for the mic, and the Sennheiser's just for the sound :p
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
February 28 2012 15:58 GMT
#2962
Picked up this pair last month:

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/klipsch-klipsch-headband-headphones-imageone-imageone/10164607.aspx?path=9db191abbdb427daf632e998a40ea078en02

They were actually $180 on sale for $100 so the deal was a bit sweeter then. I'm by no means a headphone enthusiast but I really do like them and they come with a two year warranty. Looking forward to trying them with non-mp3 tracks.
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
February 28 2012 15:58 GMT
#2963
Currently i am using a pretty weird setup, AKG k271 mkii connected to an old 150w Pioneer receiver that i got for free connected to my integrated audio on my motherboard. Note, currently i am only using the receiver to take the signal from my PC to my headphones. No Speakers, nothing. It sounds a lot warmer then my integrated audio sounds, so that's the main reason im using that bulky thing. I was considering buying an affordable sound card. Currently i was looking at the ASUS Xonar DG. Anyone has any input on my choice, and what would be the best way to make use of such a card? Just plug my headphones directly into them or should i just continue using the receiver?
tUUTZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Finland122 Posts
February 28 2012 16:21 GMT
#2964
@Fragile
I'm using a pretty similiar setup. AKG K272 HD connected to a Pioneer A-616 Mk II Stereo Amplifier. And for speakers I have Cerwin-Vega CD-90. I have the Asus DX sound card and tbh I didn't notice that much of a difference between the onboard audio. Afaik the DG is mostly used as a cheap amp and you already have your Pioneer thingy, maybe you should get something more hifi or nothing at all.
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
February 28 2012 16:28 GMT
#2965
Alright, thanks for the advice! :-D
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 16:30:16
February 28 2012 16:29 GMT
#2966
Does "warm" mean an increase in bass, maybe 50 to 300 Hz, centered around 150 Hz?

A lot of stereo amps, particularly older ones, implement the headphone output by just taking the speaker amp output and putting a resistor in between that and the headphone jack. If you're hearing a warmer sound, this is my guess for how it's done. This has the effect of making the damping factor terrible and screwing up the frequency response of a lot of headphones. A lot of headphones have impedance that varies over frequency, particularly with higher impedance in the upper bass / lower mids, so you get a warmer sound with a high output impedance source.

If that's what you want, then you want to keep plugging in the headphones into the receiver. It's probably not worth getting a sound card unless there are some annoyances you have with the onboard. If you plugged your headphones into most sound cards (some have high output impedance too, just not as high), you would lose the boosted upper bass / low mids. A sound card could do better D/A than the onboard audio, but benefits aren't going to be huge.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 16:41:25
February 28 2012 16:33 GMT
#2967
On February 28 2012 21:27 Myrmidon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 18:43 Fukinkou wrote:
I am currently sitting with my K701's plugged into my computer via the Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard.
Am I giving the headphones enough juice, or do I actually need / should get an amp for them to do them justice.
I have had them for a couple of years now, so they have alot of hours under the belt, but I just want to make sure I , as I said, do them justice, they deserve it!

Is there any amp you recommend for these?
Price isnt REALLY an issue as long as its justified (for example, noneed for 400+dollar amps).

Maybe like 250-300dollars max.

What do you even mean by "juice" anyway?
Most Schiit products would probably be a step back if you want accuracy. M-Stage is most likely better, but both may be no better than the STX. If you don't want accuracy, it's hard to gauge what's better than another for you, so just buy something randomly, or keep looking.

In what way would the Schiit products, which are considered neutral, be a step back from the Xonar STX for accuracy? I'm pretty sure the amp on it is merely adequate and there's no getting away from EMI directly inside a case in the real world, much less in a gaming PC. Seems to me like outputting RCA to an amp would be better for sure.

From my understanding you haven't heard them, pretty much all reviews (plus my personal opinion of the Asgard) are good for that pricepoint, and you tend to mention the Asgard issue which was fixed when they threw in a relay. I think you may be biased against them, perhaps because of that.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
February 28 2012 17:25 GMT
#2968
There's no way you're going to make a barebones single-ended discrete MOSFET design with no feedback be more neutral than an Essence STX, for example. Are you going to seriously make a technical argument here? I can believe that in some or many situations the difference wouldn't be great though, at least for humans listening.

The relay issue is just an example of how many audiophile manufacturers, on top of pursuing novelty designs of questionable practicality (IMHO there's nothing wrong with that in general; a lot of people obviously don't want to dispose of income in practical ways), don't particularly seem to do much serious testing.

"Considered neutral" (ignoring for the moment the noise floor, which will probably not be audible with most fullsize headphones) doesn't mean a lot. People quickly acclimate to whatever they're using.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 17:50:14
February 28 2012 17:48 GMT
#2969
I'm pretty sure you lose 99% of the readers when you go about barebones single-ended discrete MOSFET designs (Asgard) being OBVIOUSLY less neutral than an Essence STX which is getting blasted by all kinds of current as it's squeezed between a GPU and a CPU - seems to me like it wouldn't be that neutral after that. Maybe I'm just not well versed anyway but I'd like some explanation for why something like that is so obvious that you don't even need to explain, despite the huge issues that come with internal sound cards. Maybe you wear a top hat and a monocle or something -_-.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 19:44:00
February 28 2012 19:28 GMT
#2970
On February 29 2012 02:48 Djzapz wrote:
I'm pretty sure you lose 99% of the readers when you go about barebones single-ended discrete MOSFET designs (Asgard) being OBVIOUSLY less neutral than an Essence STX which is getting blasted by all kinds of current as it's squeezed between a GPU and a CPU - seems to me like it wouldn't be that neutral after that. Maybe I'm just not well versed anyway but I'd like some explanation for why something like that is so obvious that you don't even need to explain, despite the huge issues that come with internal sound cards. Maybe you wear a top hat and a monocle or something -_-.


edit: + Show Spoiler [wall of text response] +
If you don't have a lot of background in electronics (even I don't, and I have a degree and a half in EE), the key phrase to pick up is "no feedback." You lose a whole lot of performance in many kinds of systems by going without feedback. Note that relatively simple discrete transistor-based designs are among the most primitive design of amplifier. Transistors are the building blocks of op amps and other electronics--if you were to instead use some op amps, dedicated headphone output chips, buffers, etc. (which contain transistors inside), there may be many models these days that would be significantly more advanced in relevant ways. You can build an amp with very high accuracy with discrete transistors, but it's a lot more difficult and would require a more complicated design...and you'd want to be using feedback. This is why I bring up the "simple" part and also why I think comprehensive testing would be important--it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the design prowess of the team to have the turn on/off transient issue. If you're making things harder on yourself, you need to know what you're doing.

The key advantage with a discrete transistor output stage is being able to handle a whole lot of power, at least compared to most op amps. Most headphones don't need all that much power though, and some op amps (not to mention some more expensive dedicated headphone amp chips or buffers) would be suitable for most.

This analogy sucks so don't read much into it, but it's like you want to make a building that has good structural integrity: you're complaining about a modern well-engineered concrete/steel building in an area that gets weak hurricanes, as opposed to a straw house with the self-imposed constraint that you can't use any columns.

Anyhow, how does a sound card get blasted by current? I agree that sound cards face challenges inside a computer, what with stray EMI and power dirtied by a lot of fast-switching digital circuits, and therefore I usually say that going external is better. It's just that the external design we're comparing to, is hamstrung by design (for effect maybe, but I think mostly for marketing bullet points).

The extent of these issues is going to really depend on the computer. Many don't even have dedicated GPUs, though I guess many who consider a Xonar Essence would have one. Arguably you could say that when most people are listening to music carefully, their GPU and CPUs aren't under heavy load--then again, with all the low-power states these days, maybe switching back and forth between medium/heavy and light loads would create even more problems.

There are some test results for Essence STX on Stereophile, and at least those are far beyond what you could do with a very primitive circuit design using a few MOSFETs with no feedback, despite the limitations of being inside the computer chassis. RMAA sucks, but also see some RMAA loopback tests of at least the Essence A/D and D/A chain, around the web. Some of those reviews may be with dedicated graphics cards installed. It's been shown the TPA6120 headphone output chip on the Essence (and FiiO E9) is very respectable when done right (not terribly done right but okay on the E9), so driving headphones should not be an issue other than the output impedance that circuit uses.


Simpler response: for the Asgard, Schiit advertises THD less than 0.1% at 1V. That's less than -60 dB. Of course manufacturer specs are usually optimistic, so this probably implies into a high impedance (easier to drive) load. Even into a low-impedance load like 16 ohms, an STX is still going to be a whole lot better than 0.1% THD.

For the Valhalla--their tube amp, which is presumably even less intended to be neutral--they claim less than 0.5% THD at 1V. For lower impedances I would guess significantly higher at higher than 1V output.

Yeah THD is not everything, but we were talking about accuracy.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
February 28 2012 20:57 GMT
#2971
Welp, alright then, if you say so.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Vorgrim
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (North)1601 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 21:09:53
February 28 2012 21:07 GMT
#2972
I have super cheap Sennheiser headphones, big ones for pc and earbuds for my mp3. Can't really say much about sound quality, they sound good enough to me.

One thing I will say is the ear buds are indestructible, never known headphones to last so long through constant use with no regard to their wellbeing. They show no signs of wear and if they ever break I'm buying another set immediately.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
February 29 2012 12:13 GMT
#2973
Quick technical question:

I just bought (and am deeply in love with) a Fiio E10 and a pair of AT_M50s. It occurred to me to wonder: with the E10 connected via USB, is the hardware acceleration of sound channel mixing performed by my audio card being bypassed? Or are the drivers doing something clever like routing the mixed digital data from the soundcard back through the USB port?
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
February 29 2012 12:19 GMT
#2974
On February 29 2012 21:13 Umpteen wrote:
Quick technical question:

I just bought (and am deeply in love with) a Fiio E10 and a pair of AT_M50s. It occurred to me to wonder: with the E10 connected via USB, is the hardware acceleration of sound channel mixing performed by my audio card being bypassed? Or are the drivers doing something clever like routing the mixed digital data from the soundcard back through the USB port?

The mixing is done by software. I guess windows?
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
February 29 2012 12:23 GMT
#2975
On February 29 2012 21:19 T.O.P. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 21:13 Umpteen wrote:
Quick technical question:

I just bought (and am deeply in love with) a Fiio E10 and a pair of AT_M50s. It occurred to me to wonder: with the E10 connected via USB, is the hardware acceleration of sound channel mixing performed by my audio card being bypassed? Or are the drivers doing something clever like routing the mixed digital data from the soundcard back through the USB port?

The mixing is done by software. I guess windows?


I ask because I know the routing of audio between devices can be a pretty arcane process under the hood, so it seems at least POSSIBLE the soundcard is still being used in a digital capacity.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Mackem
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom470 Posts
February 29 2012 12:41 GMT
#2976
Anyone know if the FiiO E6 will be good enough to power the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohms? I wanna use them on my iPod and PC at home so I require something a bit more portable that doesn't break the bank.
Do you need a pole? I ask because your logical leaps are becoming logical vaults and your mental gymnastics are Olympic standard.
PleasureImWallace
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada45 Posts
February 29 2012 14:14 GMT
#2977
Anybody know of a good place I can sample a variety of mid-level headphones (audiotechnica, shure, and the like), in the Kitchener/Waterloo area?
CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE GROMIT
Stiluz
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway688 Posts
February 29 2012 14:55 GMT
#2978
On February 29 2012 21:41 Mackem wrote:
Anyone know if the FiiO E6 will be good enough to power the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohms? I wanna use them on my iPod and PC at home so I require something a bit more portable that doesn't break the bank.


I can't speak for the iPod, but I use the same model on my laptop at home without problem. Amazing sound =)
CyDe
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1010 Posts
February 29 2012 15:03 GMT
#2979
I'm no headphone enthusiast, but I do very much value sound effects in video games (Battlefield 3 and Frictional Games would be so much less without the sound they have). I also listen to a bunch of music that has double bass etc in it (metal, you know what I mean). For recreational purposes I have this tiny little YouTube, so I really need a good mic to be respectable.

So do you think getting the Corsair 1500 USB for abut 95 bucks was a good idea? Or should I second hand sell them and then get something new? What would you suggest?
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- My totally abandoned youtube channel that I might revisit at some point
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
February 29 2012 16:55 GMT
#2980
On February 29 2012 21:23 Umpteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 21:19 T.O.P. wrote:
On February 29 2012 21:13 Umpteen wrote:
Quick technical question:

I just bought (and am deeply in love with) a Fiio E10 and a pair of AT_M50s. It occurred to me to wonder: with the E10 connected via USB, is the hardware acceleration of sound channel mixing performed by my audio card being bypassed? Or are the drivers doing something clever like routing the mixed digital data from the soundcard back through the USB port?

The mixing is done by software. I guess windows?


I ask because I know the routing of audio between devices can be a pretty arcane process under the hood, so it seems at least POSSIBLE the soundcard is still being used in a digital capacity.

Yeah these days it just tends to be done by the OS (and really now, general-purpose CPUs these days are so fast that handling real-time audio playback and mixing takes a trivial amount of resources). E10 and many others run off of generic OS USB sound card drivers, so there's nothing special going on there. The E10 doesn't have hardware onboard to do mixing or processing itself. It's just a pretty simple DAC + headphone amp sitting behind a USB receiver chip. Give it the stereo digital sound data at a certain bit depth and sampling rate (via I2S probably, from the USB receiver), and the DAC will do its thing.

If you get something like a Creative sound card, it has a hardware DSP effects processor and other things onboard, so its drivers should be written to use those assets.


On February 29 2012 21:41 Mackem wrote:
Anyone know if the FiiO E6 will be good enough to power the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohms? I wanna use them on my iPod and PC at home so I require something a bit more portable that doesn't break the bank.

It depends on how loud you listen and how soft the music is, but in general, yes.

You can also try running it without a dedicated external amp.


On March 01 2012 00:03 CyDe wrote:
I'm no headphone enthusiast, but I do very much value sound effects in video games (Battlefield 3 and Frictional Games would be so much less without the sound they have). I also listen to a bunch of music that has double bass etc in it (metal, you know what I mean). For recreational purposes I have this tiny little YouTube, so I really need a good mic to be respectable.

So do you think getting the Corsair 1500 USB for abut 95 bucks was a good idea? Or should I second hand sell them and then get something new? What would you suggest?

Do you already own them? If music sound quality is not the highest priority, it may be okay. If you need the convenience of an attached mic that (I'm hoping) works better than a cheap clip-on, that certainly reduces your options. I don't know anything about that model though, sorry.
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