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On July 26 2010 09:26 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 09:15 The_Pacifist wrote:On July 26 2010 08:41 Chairman Ray wrote:On July 26 2010 08:28 Djzapz wrote:On July 26 2010 08:19 Chairman Ray wrote:On July 26 2010 08:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote:
I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole. I hate this post so much If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse. You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY. But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing. This event has a guaranteed effect on future loveparades. The probability of 19 people dying in a loveparade is the same regardless of which year it happens, so essentially, we are saving the 19 people that would have died next year by having them die this year. That in itself is a fair trade. On top of that, there is definitely a good chance that people will learn from this. It doesn't have to be a million people being saved, just a few thousand people will suffice. Heck the people reading this thread will probably think twice about going to major events in the future. That will amount to an overall more people saved. I think you are wrong about this event being forgotten. It will be forgotten in the media for sure, but it will not for event organizers. As an engineer, I am taught of all the bridges that collapsed, all the buildings that fell down, etc, and why it happened. This will make a difference to future organizers, it doesn't have to be a 100% difference. 19 people saved "this year instead of next year" being a fair trade makes no sense. That's like me shooting a guy in the head and saying "well, you were going to die eventually anyways. It's not like anything's going to change that." Also, if this truly will deter future deaths, then explain to me why people still drink and drive? 25,000 people die from drunk driving accidents every year, yet no matter how many people seem to die, people still feel inclined to get behind the wheel drunk out of their minds. It's not a fair trade. It's simply a disaster that could have been avoided. 19 this year instead of next year is entirely different from shooting someone. The life of a random individual bears the same value between this year and the next. Shooting a specific person in the head while they are young has a much greater consequence than the person dying of old age. With your second statement, you are forgetting that it doesn't have to be a 100% stop for it to be effective. People die from drinking and driving. At a result, Your school teaches you not to drink and drink. There are commercials and posters saying that you shouldn't drink and drive. There is a significant fine for drinking and driving. Bartenders take away your keys if you are drunk. The list goes on. Are you saying that 25,000 people will die each year regardless of what we do?
I do like the attitude of seeing the best in everything. But here it's just wrong. At least the way you say it. There is the possibility to learn from the disaster afterwards but it's still neither a "fair trade" nor "for the better". It's still a sad and horrible tragedy.
Besides what tells you this would have happened the next year or that more people would have died the next year?
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wow, i am really shocked about this.
I really dont think that the problem can be drugs or alcohol... it was the set up, the placement for the ammount of people.
You can see the video, the tunnel is a horrible idea because people get in and out from the same door.
When you have 10 person per square meter its almost impossible to move on your own, those who have been inside a METRO in chile or in china would understand easily... that was like a crowded metro door... the control was awfull and the mass just went into panic unleashing a stampede.
I really want to follow this news to see what really caused that mess... Love parade will cease it's parties in respect for the victims. There won't be love parade anymore, maybe another more controlled party...
There are thousands of parties around the world that become "overcrowded" but they go on fine... they are really not that overcrowded... This loveparade will set new rules and conditions for parties around the world, it was a really bad idea because the tunnel with the heat of 400.000 dancing bodies and thuosands of WATTS hitting the inner walls...
My condolences for those who died and their familie, really terrible / horrible way to perish.
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It was clearly the organizers fault, because the only way to get to one of the bigger concert-stages, was through a pretty narrow tunnel. There where people who knew this and they've said: "I cannot imagine this many ppl walk orderly out through the tunnel when the concert is over - there will be hysteria and death" and that was in fact the case.
Just imagine you're at a crowded concert where ppl can walk away from the stage in almost any direction - even with just a few thousand ppl it can get pretty intense. Now imagine the same scenario with only one way out; ppl at the back begin to push, but in the front they are stuck. You don't have to be a genius to see that there could easily be an outburst of panic and when that happens, you have to react very quickly and evacuate the ppl, or there will surely be a lot of casualties.
I also don't think that it had something to do with the ppl themselves, like them being to blame for this tragic event or that they just took drugs or were violent ppl just because they listen to electronic music...
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That's sad and meaningless loss of life...
I'm quite sure organizators will be in jail.
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On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote:
Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia.
I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say.
Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes.
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On July 26 2010 16:15 WhatisProtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote:
Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia. I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say. Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes.
Seriously. I was in a much smaller crowd before where everyone was pushing from the back, and it was literally impossible to hold your ground and not get smashed. Literally the most terrifying moments of my life.
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man how un-"German"
what happened to good old germany
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This shit happens in the middle east and India with religious rallies all the time. Cram enough people into one place and someone is going to get ran over. It's the event organizers fault, creating a bottleneck with that kind of crowd is just bad news.
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The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
User was temp banned for this post.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote:
The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
Do not derail this thread.
Move along, nothing to see here.
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On July 26 2010 16:46 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote:
The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade? Do not derail this thread. Move along, nothing to see here.
It's not a Gay-Parade, it's a Technoparade....
I don't know why ppl keep mixing Techno and Gay up that often. ^^'
Besides, as I've written above, I don't know what the ppl attending the parade have to do with the event that happened. For what I care, it could've been a punk or folk-festival - the people didn't matter, the huge organizational fail did...
That's what concerns me a bit: Even the first public announcements stated that the ppl who died where drugged and tried to climb a fence and died. I think that's just the mentality with which ppl face the "ravers", "drug-addicts" or "gay's" they believe to attend those events. In fact, the ppl there were just normal ppl that wanted to party while listening to the music they like - at least for the biggest part.
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On July 26 2010 16:23 SultanVinegar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 16:15 WhatisProtoss wrote:On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote:
Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia. I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say. Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes. Seriously. I was in a much smaller crowd before where everyone was pushing from the back, and it was literally impossible to hold your ground and not get smashed. Literally the most terrifying moments of my life.
I agree, I experienced the exact same thing. I was at Monster Massive in LA last halloween, and we had to wait in line for about 2 hours before we were allowed to enter because of capacity reasons. After the first hour, people started freaking out and the crowd was pushing so hard that the fences that were keeping us back were rocking back and forth, and at one point it almost fell over before security responded and tried to calm everyone down.
Me and my friend tried to resist the flow of the crowd but it was impossible. There were some groups of people with girls that were freaking out because they were getting knocked down and there was nothing we could do to help them. Eventually people at the front started lifting up parts of the smaller metal line dividers and "crowd surfing" them backwards toward the end of the line.
You could say it's the fault of the organizers, but I honestly don't know as it's hard to anticipate the total headcount for these types of events.
On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote:
The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
This is entirely not appropriate.
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On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote:
The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
It's an electronic dance parade. Not what you're thinking of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade
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Damn stuff like this makes me sad. I definately blame the organizers, because they should be more cautious at events like this. Never underestimate what could happen - seriously if you stack horde of people into a tunnel 20m wide, like 50% of those people are drugged or drunk, what the hell do you think could happen...Seriously fucking idiots.
Yes people that kept pushing are stupid, but guess what - that is what people are - stupid monkeys. This really is the organizers fault as they should be more cautious.
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I think the organisers need to be charged for this. They have a responsibility when planning an event such as this to ensure proper crowd control.
A tunnel wihere the only entrace is the exit? with concrete walls? Jesus christ what were they thinking? It doesn't take a genius to realise the potential dangers there.
People are stupid, but crowds are even stupider. Organisers MUST account for the possibility of something going wrong. And must take every reasonable precaution to prevent something from going wrong. And in this scenario, they failed on both accounts.
Yes, the people who pushed in from behind are idiots. But we cant just sit back and blame them when it is someones JOB to prevent the idiots from causing harm.
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Zurich15355 Posts
So apparently both the organizers and the city ignored concerns over security before the event. The federal spokesman of the police warned the event could not happen in Duisburg (the city) over a year ago. Event security specialists from the firefighters form the neighboring city of Bochum were involved in planning and also advised against holding the event in Duisburg. Last year's parade in Bochum was canceled over security concerns.
The staging area was OK'd for 250k people, which should have been enough to outright cancel the event. An estimated 1.4 mio had entered the area just before the tragedy happened.
The organizers were freed from providing sufficiently wide exit routes mandatory for such an event by the city. To give some background, Duisburg is the city worst off in terms of economy and unemployment in the former heart of coal and steel industry in Germany and apparently wanted to host this event at all costs.
All in all a colossal and tragic fuckup by the organizers and the city of Duisburg. Public prosecution announced investigation against the organizers and has seized the security concept material. The Bochum police which was involved in the planning and was also ignored wants to press charges against the city of Duisburg.
The Love Parade already announced that they won't have another one. This is the end of the Love Parade.
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On July 26 2010 08:17 Ichabod wrote:
It's frustrating that stuff like this happens, when it could be just as easily avoided if people just acted calmly.
Let's be clear here- the event was at it's full capacity and they were not letting anyone in. The people outside of the tunnel did not know that and kept pushing. People were getting crushed, that's when the panic started. Pretty easy to tell people to be calm sitting in your armchair.
Ironically the organisators let the event go on in spite of the deaths, to avoid further mass panic.
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On July 26 2010 18:19 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 08:17 Ichabod wrote:
It's frustrating that stuff like this happens, when it could be just as easily avoided if people just acted calmly. Let's be clear here- the event was at it's full capacity and they were not letting anyone in. The people outside of the tunnel did not know that and kept pushing. People were getting crushed, that's when the panic started. Pretty easy to tell people to be calm sitting in your armchair. Ironically the organisators let the event go on in spite of the deaths, to avoid further mass panic.
crowds that thick rarely just calmly disperse and from what i saw of pictures of the event it was way over crowded, i was surprised people could even pour in, it didn't look like any walking space what so ever.
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On July 26 2010 18:10 zatic wrote:
The Bochum police which was involved in the planning and also ignored wants to press charges against the city of Duisburg.
The Love Parade already announced that they won't have another one. This is the end of the Love Parade.
thats what pisses me off so hard.
the people really responsible for this crap wont be punished and the love parade(a really amazing thing) ends because some retard greedy idiots with no fkkin clue were too stupid to realise that 1,5m people in a 250k area with only one entrance which is also the only exit might be a problem.
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and that is why they should have just stayed in berlin.....
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EPT
