On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
Yah you are amazing sir but you just alive because god dont let nobody die in is house he think is bm and rude.
Is not the first time this happend and is not the last time. Could be worse
I love people who say they wouldnt panic like the rest of humanity, coz they believe they control their body. YOU DONT! I dont care about ure super-church-memory...but if ure body decides to panic, YOU panic.
btw I also been in an overcrowded train, I didnt panic, still I dont go around saying I WOULD NEVER PANIC!
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
I think you really, by a far measure, underestimate group behavior. That place was way too crowded and the people there were partly drunk or under influence of drugs, there was only one way to go too. The person who pushed might have lost it, but it's not only his fault, the blame lies to a very big part on the security and event organizers for choosing a location that was said to fit in 500.000 people or even less, when around a million or more were expected to come.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
I know a guy that works in Health and Safety, in particular football stadium safety, the amount of exits that a stadium is legally required to have, is many more than where at the love parade, and many stadiums have lower attendance.
I hope the organisers get charged quite frankly, serious miss-management.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
well moshpits are kind of different, in most situations like this people cant even move their arms from their bodies, let alone bend over to pick someone up, its such a dense mass of people that once someone goes down there is no way to get back up, there just isn't room for people to back away.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
The problem in huge crowds is the lack of feedback, there is not enough information exchanged. The people that are actually exerting the force don't even know that they are endangering people, 20 meters is a huge distance in a crowd like that.
Witnesses that were in the most dangerous zones said it was so crowded that it was impossible to help other people up. People didn't necessarily lose their mind. Also trampling is most often not the actual cause of death, it is the compression of the lungs that interferes with breathing. The pressure is just that high. I have heard a witness saying he saw a girl's face turn blue (due to the lack of oxygen) and there was nothing he could do to help her.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
It's not like there was a stampede, or people being trampled to death. They were pressed against a wall and suffocated. When there is 10 people per square meter nobody gets pushed to the ground let alone can anyone pick someone up should one be on the ground. Also the only ones panicking were most likely the ones who couldn't breath anymore. No one was "losing their minds".
If you're with the girl you love in the crowed and people are crushing her and you, you hear her crying but nothing you can do, you start pushing back to open a gap for her to breath but you can't. This is when you panic and I don't care if you're a Navy Seal, you start getting pissed because people are crushing you and you'r loved one and because you can't push 100,000 people back. Don't tell me you would just calmly stand there with no air, being crushed along with you'r girl. I call B.S.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
The problem in huge crowds is the lack of feedback, there is not enough information exchanged. The people that are actually exerting the force don't even know that they are endangering people, 20 meters is a huge distance in a crowd like that.
Witnesses that were in the most dangerous zones said it was so crowded that it was impossible to help other people up. People didn't necessarily lose their mind. Also trampling is most often not the actual cause of death, it is the compression of the lungs that interferes with breathing. The pressure is just that high. I have heard a witness saying he saw a girl's face turn blue (due to the lack of oxygen) and there was nothing he could do to help her.
That sound like a very fucked up situation to be in, I thought people had enough room to at least put their elbows infront of them, but I guess I underestimated the situation.
I apologize for referencing someones sick joke with technoviking. TBH more people die everyday because of simpler things. e.g. not being fed.
Not to say you can't weigh the value of life of 1,000 people dying and 19 people dying but I will not forget that shit happens, and we should all learn from this.
Atleast 14 people died close to the stairs shown in this video:
Those stairs were actually supposed to be closed, but after the crowd slowed down and progress was minimal people actually managed to break the barriers and climb the stairs. Maybe some police officer felt sorry for them and helped, I don't know.
This created a very dangerous situation, however, since it worked like a fanal:
People in the crowd finally see an exit after waiting for so long and start to converge on it, the stair becomes a focal point of the pressure. All the while the actual number of people exiting is very small, because the exit is so tiny, and the pressure is not falling but mounting. Atleast 14 people were crushed at this location.
The lesson:
If you are in a dense crowd and see a small exit opening up, don't go for it unless you are very close.
If you are far away just wait and tell other people to wait, you could save some lives in the front rows.
If you are somewhere in the middle and are shoved towards such a focal point, try to move sideways. You cannot go against the full force of the crowd, but by moving sideways you can get away from the focal point while meeting minimal resistance. Or maybe you can organize the people around you to build a wall that reduces the pressure. If these options shouldn't work, better start praying.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
Seriously.. your post makes me angry
The nicest and most polite people I know would help the person up who fell and save their life.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
Seriously.. your post makes me angry
The nicest and most polite people I know would help the person up who fell and save their life.
Holy shit.. your idiocy piss me off. You *can't* help somebody up in this situation.. did you just create this account to anger people? Look at the video quoted by this person from Germany.. how can you help somebody up in such a situation..
On July 27 2010 00:41 Maenander wrote: Atleast 14 people died close to the stairs shown in this video:
Those stairs were actually supposed to be closed, but after the crowd slowed down and progress was minimal people actually managed to break the barriers and climb the stairs. Maybe some police officer felt sorry for them and helped, I don't know.
This created a very dangerous situation, however, since it worked like a fanal:
People in the crowd finally see an exit after waiting for so long and start to converge on it, the stair becomes a focal point of the pressure. All the while the actual number of people exiting is very small, because the exit is so tiny, and the pressure is not falling but mounting. Atleast 14 people were crushed at this location.
The lesson:
If you are in a dense crowd and see a small exit opening up, don't go for it unless you are very close.
If you are far away just wait and tell other people to wait, you could save some lives in the front rows.
If you are somewhere in the middle and are shoved towards such a focal point, try to move sideways. You cannot go against the full force of the crowd, but by moving sideways you can get away from the focal point while meeting minimal resistance. Or maybe you can organize the people around you to build a wall that reduces the pressure. If these options shouldn't work, better start praying.
Some people have the willpower to do something and some don't, your opinion is your own but I think that putting all the burdens on the organizers is quite unjust and unfair to be honest.
On July 27 2010 02:12 zoNin wrote: Some people have the willpower to do something and some don't, your opinion is your own but I think that putting all the burdens on the organizers is quite unjust and unfair to be honest.
I told you to read the thread before posting. Do not post here again before you have completed that or your opinion will just be considered trolling and you will be banned for it.
Organizers for choosing a retarded place. People for not listening to warnings or using their own sane logic. I'd say the organizers have more to pay for, however, for being so naive and ignoring the worst-case scenarios. Regardless of what people should hold responsibility for, if you're going to host such an event that attracts 1 million+ people, you are being unrealistic if you are not preparing for the ridiculous nature of massive groups of people. Sure, maybe in some distant future our society will improve and people may never do this again. But you can't bank on that ever happening now.
I detest large groups because people do dumb shit like this. However, I understand that things happen that go beyond normal human control, such as panicking when you can't breathe. However, the people flowing in did ignore police warnings to not enter, which were apparently over loudspeakers according to OP. If that is true, then I have to blame the attendees as well.
What gets me is this thread has people trying to blame one or the other. I think that's a false dilemma, I think both the attendees and organizers are to blame. However, the organizers are more responsible and could have avoided this altogether, so they share a bigger portion of my disgust. At least it isn't happening again. Well, I don't know, it probably is a shame for the people who enjoy this, and I'm sure someone in the future will be less retarded.
EPT
